§ (In the Committee).
§ (1.) 122,655, Land Forces (exclusive of Men employed in India).
GENERAL PEELBefore proceeding to make any comparison between the Estimates of the next financial year and those of tine present one, it is necessary that the 1311 House should fully understand them. The whole amount voted last year for the army was £11,577,755. The total Estimate he should ask for to-night was £11,568,060; between these sums there was a difference of £9,695. Any one not accustomed to examine the details of Estimates would naturally come to the conclusion that the £11,568,060 the House would be asked to vote was the full expenditure; but this would be an error; the full amount on the face of the Estimate for the last year amounted to £12,677,000, and the full amount of the Estimates for the present year was £12,668,060. The difference of £1,100,000 was made up of the sum due from the East Indian Government to the Home Government for the pay of the regiments serving in India; this would be available for the reduction of the expenses of the present year; the sum available for the same purpose in the ensuing year would be £700,000. It was necessary to make this explanation, in order that the House should understand what must otherwise appear to be a most extraordinary anomaly, that whilst the number of men to be voted was 7,480 less than during the past year, there was an increase in the pay and money allowance of £43,447. Instead of that, upon referring to page 7 of the Estimates, they would see that the real amount of pay and allowances for the men voted last year was £4,361,027; whilst that now required was only £4,174,474. But then there was deducted last year for the pay of men wanting to complete establishments, and the amount to be paid by the Indian Government for excess in the number of men sent to India, £680,000; whereas this year the deduction on those accounts was only £45,00. The money due from the East Indian Government was thus accounted for. When a Queen's regiment was sent to India in excess of the regular number there, the East India Government was charged for every man what he was supposed to cost this country in making bun a soldier, his accoutrements and his drill. That cost was for each infantry soldier £18 1s.; for the cavalry of the line £31 13s. 11d. per man; Royal Horse Artillery, £73 8s. 9d.; field batteries of the Royal Artillery, £50 5s.; and the Royal Engineers, £84 2s. 5d. per man. This large sum of money due from the Indian Government would be deducted from the gross Estimates of the present year. In addition there was a reduction in the expense of the transport of troops 1312 amounting to £200,000. The ensuing financial year was also leap-year, and the difference of the one day made a difference in the expenditure of nearly £20,000. But the amount of the Estimates was entirely governed by the number of men required for the service of the country. The Vote required for the pay and allowances of the land forces for the ensuing year was £3,24,474; for miscellaneous charges, £562,369; for clothing and necessaries, £400,000; for provisions, forage, fuel, light, barrack furniture and bedding, £1,003,604. Vote No. 2, for pay and money allowances; Vote No. 3, for miscellaneous charges; Vote No. 9, for clothing and necessaries; and Vote No. 10, for provisions, forage, fuel, and light, were simple sums in arithmetic, regulated entirely by the number of men that might be required. So with the Votes for the effective service; they were almost all of them governed by the same rule. For instance, the departments of the Secretary of State and the Commander in Chief could only vary in proportion to the number of men required and the duties which were thrown upon them; and those duties were not confined merely to the British establishment, but extended to the whole army; for although the East Indian Government paid for clothing the troops they employed, still all the contracts were entered into by the Department over which he (General Peel) presided, the East Indian Government paying 5 per cent. for departmental charges. Again, it would appear by the Estimate as if there was an increase in the Vote for warlike stores for land and sea service for the present year of £83,361; whereas in reality there was a decrease of £116,000, for there Was deducted from the Vote of last year £600,000, which was payable by the East India Company, and this year only £400,000. Consequently there was a decrease on that Vote of £116,000, and not an increase of £83,361. So far as the Votes for fortifications, civil buildings, and barracks were concerned, the Estimates did no more than carry out arrangements which had been agreed to by this House, and were not susceptible of reduction. Practically, out of a total of £12,000,000, there were not £2,000,000 over which the War Department had any power, or in which it could make any reduction. As the number of men must always be the basis of the Estimates, in stating what that number would be for the year. ensuing, he must observe that this 1313 was altogether an exceptional year; he did not think it possible to ask a greater or smaller number of men than he was about to require. There was an apparent decrease of 7,480 men in the British establishments, but this was occasioned by a transfer from one establishment to another, there being an increase in the Indian Establishment to the extent of 14,163. The total number of men to be voted for the ensuing year, for the whole British Army, was 229,557; this was an increase on the strength of last year of 6,683 men, the number of the army in the past year having been 222,874. He had really no power to increase or diminish the number required. In order to show this it was necessary to go back to the state of the army before the outbreak of the Indian mutiny. The army had then just been reduced to the peace establishment, and its strength was no greater than was required to perform the duties of the service abroad and at home. Before the Indian mutinies the British army consisted of twenty-three regiments of cavalry and 105 battalions of the line. Of these, four regiments of cavalry and twenty-four regiments of infantry, amounting to about 30,000 men, were upon the Indian establishment; leaving nineteen regiments of cavalry and eighty-one regiments of infantry upon the British establishment. Only two branches of the service were much affected by the outbreak—the cavalry and infantry; of these, the number despatched to India amounted to nearly 30,000 men; twelve regiments of cavalry, and seventy-three battalions of infantry were in India at the present time, leaving only seven regiments of cavalry and seventy-two battalions of infantry to do the whole of the home and colonial duty. But during the present year it was anticipated that several of these regiments and battalions would be spared from India for the Home Service. It was important that the House should know the data on which this Estimate was founded. He would, therefore, read a letter from Lord Clyde to his Highness the Commander in Chief, which would show that the calculation he had made was no wild speculation, or founded on mere conjecture. The letter was dated,—
Allahabad, Nov. 1, 1858.In short, I think 1 can now predict, almost with confidence, that your Royal Highness's wishes with respect to the return of certain regiments may be accomplished early in the spring without real inconvenience to this country. I should imagine that it may be possible to dis- 1314 pense with the 86th from Bombay, the oldest regiment from Madras and from this Presidency, in addition to the four already ordered to England by your Royal Highness. As the Bengal. Light Cavalry ought to be almost fit for duty in the spring, I should hope that the 9th Lancers might also return home. Perhaps it might not be safe to extend reduction further for this season.He knew there was great anxiety felt to know what regiments were likely to return from India in the course of the next year, and it might therefore be interesting to the House to hear their names. Those regiments would all be borne on the British establishment for the next year, and were therefore included in the number of men which the House would be asked to vote. They were the 9th Lancers, the 10th Foot, the 29th Foot, the 32nd, the 53rd, the 78th, the 84th, and the 86th. It had been necessary that he should come to some arrangement with his noble Friend the Minister for India as to the number of regiments which should return from that country in the course of the year; for if any number came home unexpectedly, or more came than had been provided for in the Estimate, there would naturally be an excess on the force voted for upon the British establishment. This would require either a supplementary Vote to be proposed, or the Government would be obliged to reduce some of the second battalions which they had raised. He had therefore allowed in the course of the ensuing financial year for the return of seven regiments of infantry now in India, and one additional regiment of cavalry. This would give eleven regiments of cavalry and sixty-six regiments of infantry for the Indian establishment, and fourteen regiments of cavalry and sixty-five regiments of infantry for the British establishment. This would make five regiments of cavalry and sixteen regiments of infantry less upon the British establishment than there were previous to the outbreak of the mutinies. He trusted, then, the House would agree that it would be very impolitic, if not impossible, to reduce the number of these regiments, or to vote a single man less than he now asked for. He would next proceed to show that it would be equally impolitic for bins to ask for a larger number of men. If they wished for a larger number they could obtain them only by raising additional battalions; and there was every reason to believe, from the present state of India, that before they could be trained the British regiments would begin to return to England. There was not the slightest 1315 doubt that the Indian Government, looking at the condition of their finances, would be happy to dispense with the services of our troops at the earliest possible moment. But under any circumstances, for a long time to come, he believed they would not be able to diminish the force in India below fifty battalions of infantry. Taking that as the average and assuming that they carried out the system of reliefs—so essential to preserve the efficiency of the British army—which had been laid down, each regiment would not be kept more than ten years abroad, nor be allowed to remain less than five years at home. This required two-thirds of our force to be abroad, while the other third was in this country. [Sir GEORGE LEWIS inquired how many men were included in the fifty battalions?] He took the number at 50,000, though he could not pledge himself to the exact figures. Therefore to retain fifty battalions in India they must have twenty-five battalions more at home for reliefs, making together seventy-five battalions. Thirty-seven battalions were required for duty in the Colonies with nineteen at home for their relief, making altogether 131 battalions. It would be very unwise to add to the number of our regiments, or to raise fresh regiments which we were not likely permanently to require, because, as soon as they became efficient, there was every probability that they would be again reduced, and moreover, before they could raise them, they could supply their place in the meantime by the embodied militia, who are always better than the new levies. Fault had been found with him because, as it was said, he intended to disembody the militia lest they should become too efficient. So far from there being any truth in this statement, there was nothing on which he and his Royal Highness the Commander in Chief had more prided themselves, than on the efficiency of the embodied militia, a force by whose aid we had been enabled to furnish the very timely reinforcement of thirteen regiments for India, and to which we were also indebted, notwithstanding the great exertions for the suppression of the mutiny, to keep up in this country and in the Colonies a number of men equal to our requirements. At the present moment there were no fewer than 93,871 troops belonging to Her Majesty in India. He held in his hand a return of the troops on colonial stations between the years 1840 and 1855. In 1840 they amounted to 37,370 men; in 1845 to 1316 36,371; in 1850 to 35,942; and in 1855 to 28,598. At present the number was 38,711. He had also procured a return showing the available force of all arms in the United Kingdom, from 1820 down to last year. From this it appeared that the total force was as follows:—The total of 55,725 for 1858 was exclusive of the Indian depôts and the embodied militia, which were separately stated. On the 1st of February last the number of regular troops in this country of all ranks, comprising infantry, cavalry, foot guards, artillery, &c., amounted to 66,216. In addition to this there were no less than 16,427 men forming the depôts of regiments in India; besides 23,022 of embodied militia, making together a force of 105,685 men, exclusive of marines, pensioners, depôts at Warley of regiments belonging to the army in India, and the Irish constabulary. He did not mean to say this was a body of men sufficient to place our military establishment on an equality with those of foreign nations. We never could by any possibility enter into a competition with foreign countries in respect to the number of men. What he said was, that Her Majesty's Government had during the course of last year done all in their power to keep the largest obtainable force together; and when he spoke of 105,000 men, he should remark that it was quite as many as we could find barrack accommodation for. He thought, therefore, it would clearly be impolitic either to reduce or to increase the numerical strength of our army; and he hoped the House would have no hesitation in voting the number of men he proposed. He would now pass on to observe that more had been done for the welfare of the British soldier during the last few years than one could possibly have anticipated. Since he had himself been in the army the soldier had been better armed, better fed, better clothed, and better paid. More attention, in short, had been shown to his comfort in every respect. He had found things in a state of progress when he acceded to his present office; and all that he bad since done was to continue the work which others had begun. But there was 1317 no branch of the service which had not undergone important improvements. The spiritual instruction of the soldier had been provided for by an increase in the number of chaplains. He was afraid that what he had done in this respect might not meet the approval of the hon. Member for North Warwickshire, but he would be happy to discuss the subject with that hon. Gentleman when they came to Vote 3. The education of the soldier had been carefully attended to within the last few years, and nothing could be more satisfactory than the reports received as to the results of these efforts. The soldiers were anxious to learn, and their commanding officers gave them every encouragement to do so. The schools, the libraries, and the reading rooms were well frequented, and the slight indulgence which his predecessor had granted and he had continued—namely, as to the introduction of innocent games of chess and draughts into the reading rooms had the effect of drawing the men away from the haunts of intemperance. On board the transports for India also means had been afforded for their amusement. Dictionaries of the Hindostanee language had been supplied to them, and, where practicable, persons had been appointed to instruct thorn on the voyage. Everything had, in fact, been done to raise the condition of the soldier, and promote his moral and intellectual improvement. Soon after he accepted office a warrant was issued raising the pay and improving the position of the medical officers, and its result had been that a very superior class of men, house surgeons from hospitals, and men who had taken prizes in different schools were now entering the army in that capacity. A Committee of that House had directed attention to the importance of attention being paid to measures which should prevent disease as well as to its cure, and he had no doubt that, under the able and energetic superintendence of Dr. Alexander, all the recommendations of that Committee would be carried into effect. Great improvements had also been made in the Commissariat, which, though small in numbers, as it must always be in time of peace, now afforded the nucleus of a department which might, whenever necessary, be easily and rapidly extended, and which he trusted would prevent the repetition of the miseries endured in the Crimea. It was intended that, in future, at the great camps of Aldershot and the Curragh, the provisions should be 1318 received in gross, and the soldiers should be taught to help themselves, by being their own butchers and bakers, and in all respects having to act as if they were on actual service. Another improvement which would be made would be the subdivision of contracts, so that they might not be given for such large quantities that, as was now the case, they msut always be taken by the same person. By means of this alteration and the supervision of the officers of the Commissariat, he hoped that the expense would be reduced, while the quality of the provisions supplied to our troops would be improved. Such were his propositions in respect of the number of men and their maintenance. Of course the country had a right to ask what amount of security they have to depend upon from this enormous military expenditure. Upon his right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty must that defence mainly rest. It would be perfectly impossible to fortify the whole coast of England. It was the duty of the Government to protect the great naval arsenals and depôts—Portsmouth, Plymouth, Devonport, Portland, and sucks places—and also the mouth of the Thames; but the idea of protecting the whole coast was perfectly absurd. It might be done as far as possible by providing movable batteries, which, to a certain extent, would be very effectual in checking an enemy; but an attempt to prevent an invasion by fortifying the whole coast would be perfectly useless. There was one feature on this part of the question of which the House had heard a great deal,—he meant the introduction of Sir William Armstrong's gun. It was impossible for any one to predict what would be the result of the general introduction of that weapon into the service. In the course of the summer he appointed a Commission to examine and report upon the different sorts of rifled ordnance which had been submitted to the Government. The Report of that Commission was that, after giving the fullest attention to the subject, they considered Sir William Armstrong's invention superior to all others. The gun submitted to the Government by that gentleman is a breech-loading, rifled, wrought-iron gun, peculiarly manufactured, and the peculiarity extends to the projectile, which serves at option as either solid or hollow shot, as shell, or as common case. This projectile could also be modified so as to be used by naval batteries and on board ships, and to have a very great explosive effect. The gun had 1319 great durability, he having himself seen one which had been fired 1,300 times without the smallest injurious effect being produced upon it. The great advantages of this gun were its extreme lightness, the extent of its range, and its accuracy. An Armstrong gun throwing a projectile of 18 lb. weighed one-third as much as the guns now in use discharging shot of that weight. The range of a 32 lb. gun, fired with a charge of 5 lb. of powder, was a little more than five miles and a quarter. However, guns would, of course, have a longer range, but the object of the experiments now going on were not so much to increase the range as the weight of the projectile. The precision of the gun was still more extraordinary than its range. The accuracy of the Armstrong gun at 3,000 yards was as seven to one compared with that of the common gun at 1,000 yards; while at 1,000 yards it would hit an object every time which was struck by the common guns only once in fifty-seven times; therefore, at equal distances, the Armstrong gun was fifty-seven times as accurate as our common artillery. Its destructive effect, also, exceeded anything which had hitherto been witnessed; the carriages had been very much improved, and their introduction into the navy would greatly diminish the number of men required to work the guns. Having ascertained the superiority of the gun, the Government could have no hesitation in at once doing everything in their power to make themselves masters of it. Great as had been the ingenuity and talent displayed by Sir William Armstrong in regard to this invention, they were exceeded by the liberality with which he at once presented to the Government his patents and drawings—the result of ten years' experiments—without condition or stipulation. He (General Peel) had not the slightest hesitation in saying that there was hardly any sum which the Government would have felt themselves justified in refusing for those patents, which were thus unreservedly yielded up. When his noble Friend at the head of the Government asked him (General Peel) to think of some sum which might be presented to Mr. Armstrong, he was at once relieved from all difficulty by that gentleman proposing to be considered as having been in the service of the Government for the three years he was engaged in making his experiments, and that they should allow him a salary of £2,000 a year. The patents then belonged to the Government, 1320 but to mark their sense of his services—the Government had appointed him Engineer for Rifled Ordnance. And, as it was desirable, in as short a period as possible, to manufacture the greatest number of guns he undertook to make them on the single stipulation, that the outlay in the works, in the event of the demand being stopped from any cause before he had been repaid for the expense incurred, then au arbitrator should decide what amount of remuneration he was entitled to for the loss so sustained in building; and the arbitrator he had himself named beforehand—he was to be the Attorney General of the day. He was convinced that the Committee would be of opinion that nothing could be more liberal than the manner in which Sir William Armstrong had dealt. with the Government; and would think that he well deserved the honour which, by her own special and personal desire, had been conferred upon him by Her Majesty. The manufacture of some of the larger of these guns was now being proceeded with by Sir William Armstrong's late partners; it was also the intention of the Government to make some of them at Woolwich under the direction of that gentleman, and when they had got some of the largest size they would be tried against masonry and earthwork, till which was done it was impossible to say exactly what effect they would produce upon fortifications. One thing he might predict, and that was that sooner or later they would supersede the whole existing armament of the country. He was afraid that the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. W. Williams) must make up his mind to a large expenditure on that account; but he was sure that he would not grudge any money the expenditure of which would be for the benefit of the country. [Mr. W. WILLIAMS: Hear, hear.] It might also be necessary to reconstruct a great many of the existing works; but he would not trouble the House with any observations upon that subject. Nor would he now enter upon the consideration of the different Votes. When the House came to them in regular order he would give a full explanation of the grounds of increase or decrease, as the case might be; but in the meantime would conclude by moving the Vote of 122,655 men, exclusive of those employed in India.
1820 … … … 55,032 Men 1825 … … … 37,622 — 1830 … … … 42,973 — 1835 … … … 44,014 — 1840 … … … 47,891 — 1845 … … … 55,668 — 1850 … … … 60,131 — 1855 … … … 58,477 — 1858 … … … 55,724 —
Mr. W. WILLIAMSsaid he must beg to call attention to an extraordinary increase in the cost of the army in the present year as compared with what it was in 1852–3 1321 when the present Government was in office. In 1852–3 the number of men was 119,519 now it was 122,655, showing an increase of only 3,136. The Army Estimates in 1852–3 amounted to £9,021,000; those of the present year amounted to 11,560,000, showing an increase of £2,539,000. He likewise wished to call attention to the number of general officers at present employed. The Commission of 1854 reported that no more than 234 general officers were required for our army, and yet he found in the Army List there were 500 Generals in the Queen's army, 34 Generals of Marines, and 220 Generals in the Indian army. He calculated that, including the regular army, the Militia, and the Marines on shore, the enrolled pensioners, the yeomanry, and the Irish police the Government had at its disposal an efficient force of 206,807 men—a force which he thought would satisfy the most nervous member of the community. He would add nothing further upon this Vote, but he would follow the right hon. and gallant General through the Votes, as he proposed them to the Committee.
§ SIR H. WILLOUGHBYsaid, he had no objection to offer to the number of men. He merely rose to ask the gallant General what was the regulation with respect to the payment of troops destined for the Indian service; when the period for trying the depôts commenced, and what their number was at present? It was clear that if the present military expenditure were kept up and India were called upon to pay its share of the cost, the exchequer of that country would soon be insolvent. How happened it that something like twelve batteries of artillery were destined for the Indian service, when the mutiny was apparently quelled? Was it intended that the artillery in India should be supplied from this country, and was the idea of a European artillery located in India given up? The expense of an artillery force sent from this country, with the necessary transports, would be so extravagant that the Indian finances would not be able to bear it. The Government must come to a decision as to the extent to which they meant to keep up the European force in India, and the result to the Indian finances of any attempt to maintain 106,000 troops there, constantly fed from this country, with all the expense of transports to convey them, must be insolvency. He wished the House to consider that there was maintained in this country for the In- 1322 dian service a large military force which did not come under the control of Parliament.
§ SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, he concurred in several of the observations which had fallen from the Secretary of War. He admired the disinterested patriotism of Sir William Armstrong in making his invention unconditionally over to the Government, and he was happy to learn that the Government had taken steps to secure a large supply of that arm. Its efficiency was so thoroughly proved that he thought they were justified in waiving the usual caution not to spend too much money in the manufacture of a newly invented weapon lest further improvements should be found to supersede it in its present condition. But while agreeing upon this portion of the right hon. and gallant Gentleman's statement, he still thought there were some points which called for explanation. There was a strong feeling in the country as to our recruiting system, and the speeches which bad been heard about it were almost alarming. He had moved for a Return which he trusted would show the whole state of the case. It was said that a Commission would be appointed, but he thought evils of that sort should be remedied by the authorities of the department themselves, and not be left to the remote contingencies of the Report of a Royal Commission. The situation of an officer on the recruiting establishment was regarded as a sort of retirement, but he would suggest that the recruiting establishment should in future be maintained independent of any such considerations, and that recruiting officers should be selected simply because they were adapted to the duty. He was at a loss to account for the great amount of desertion which had of late taken place in the army. That fact might in some degree be owing to the increased facilities for locomotion afforded by our railways; but it appeared to him that that cause could in a great measure be counteracted by keeping watch at the railway stations, or by adopting other precautions which he would not attempt to particularise. He feared that there must also have been some error committed in the mode of recruiting for the line and for the militia, inasmuch as it was stated that different recruiting officers had been employed at the same time for the two services at different sides of the same street, the line taking one side and the militia the other. It seemed to him that the inducement to enter the militia ought not to be so great 1323 as that to enter the line, because in the one case the service was but temporary and partial, and in the other continuous. The number of desertions, taking them at 20,000 for the army and militia, was so large that it was evident there must be something extremely faulty in the system. He wanted to know why, when the mutiny in India was most triumphantly put down, this House should be called upon to maintain there a force 15,000 men stronger than when the mutiny was raging? And now they heard that twelve batteries of artillery were under orders for India. Our artillery force in India had performed its duty admirably, and yet it seemed that an additional force of seventy-two guns which would be almost sufficient for an army in the field was to be sent to that country. He also thought our system of dispersing our force over the world had been carried too far. One half of the whole of the line and of the artillery was in India, and the remainder was about equally divided between the Colonies and the home stations. It was true the Mediterranean garrison sought to be strong, but he did not think that the force at home, nothwithstanding the statements of the hon. Member for Lambeth, was at all excessive; in fact, he should be glad to see it increased, for thirty-five battalions was by no means too great a force for the United Kingdom.
GENERAL PEELsaid, that in reply to the first question of the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Williams), as to the number of general officers, he had to observe that the real number was 262, and not 500, as stated by the hon. Member. As to the question of the hon. Baronet (Sir Henry Willoughby) respecting the depôts of regiments now in India, he might state that on the 1st of February the exact number of men forming those depots was 16,427, the whole expense of whom was borne by the Indian revenues. The hon. Baronet had also asked what was the meaning of sending out twelve batteries of artillery to India. In reply, he (General Peel) could only say, that having sat upon the Indian Commission, he found that the point most strongly insisted upon by the witnesses was the necessity of having no more Native artillery. The object of sending out the additional twelve batteries was to prevent the necessity of renewing the Native force of that arm. The expense of those companies would fall upon the Indian Government from 1324 the day of embarkation. The hon. and gallant General (Sir De Lacy Evans) deprecated the appointment of a Commission to inquire into the recruiting system; but, in fact, there were so many branches—the Indian, the militia, and the line—that it was desirable to institute an inquiry as speedily as possible, in order to put an end to the system of desertion which was now so flagrant. The Returns upon that subject should be laid upon the table at the earliest moment; but they could not give all the information that was expected from them, as they would give the number of desertions, but not of deserters, as many men had deserted ten or twelve times over. From a Return which he had he found that the whole number enlisted last year was 47,141 men; the number volunteered from the militia was 7,760; the number of those who deserted from their regiments was 9,637, of whom 1,976 afterwards returned, leaving a net loss to the service of about the same number as volunteered from the militia. A Bill had been passed at the end of last Session to enable militia regiments to be sent to the Mediterranean garrisons, and had any necessity arisen, no doubt there would have been plenty of volunteers; but owing to the zeal of the officers employed to raise the second battalions of regiments serving in India, those second battalions had become so efficient that no less than thirteen of them were now serving abroad, and he had received a letter from Malta speaking in the highest terms of the efficiency of those corps stationed there. He earnestly hoped that they should be enabled soon to devise some means of checking desertion, which had actually become a trade.
§ SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, he hoped it was not intended to send out all the second battalions, for he found that the second battalion of the regiment which he had the honour to command, the 21st, was 600 under its strength.
GENERAL PEELreplied that, of course, it was intended to send out battalions whose numbers were incomplete.
§ SIR DE LACY EVANSthen asked for an explanation of the increase that had taken place in the amount of the army in India, from 92,000 last year, to 107,000 now serving there.
GENERAL PEELexplained that the Indian establishment last year was increased at the urgent request of the Governor Ge- 1325 neral, who, even upon his own responsibility, called troops from the Cape and wherever he could get them. That raised the amount of the force from 92,000 to 107,000, its present number.
§ MR. SIDNEY HERBERTSir, I am not quite sure that the statement of my hon. and gallant Friend with respect to recruiting is so unfavourable as it appears to be. I presume that, in the number of men lost to the service, he includes every vacancy created by a deserter. The deserter, however, may be a man who several times rejoins the army. I have heard, in deed, that there is one instance in which it was discovered that the same individual had deserted and re-enlisted with a fresh personation no less than forty-seven different times, having received forty-seven bounties from the service before he was ultimately fixed. The story is, perhaps, somewhat exaggerated, but it at all events serves to show to what extent many desertions may represent but one man. With respect to the difficulty of procuring men for the army, I would simply say that it is a matter which depends in a great degree on the impression which is produced on the minds of the peasantry and the working classes as to what are the conditions and the prospects of the soldier. The families of the working classes scattered throughout our villages are very slow to take in the changes which are made in the service; nor do I think they are yet thoroughly informed with respect to the substitution of short periods of service for service for life. They imagine that when a man enters the army as a recruit, he is cut off from his friends for ever—that he undergoes, as it were, a sentence of transportation, and are not alive to the fact that at the end of ten years he may come back to them with some money in his pocket saved during his time of service. Great improvements have been steadily going on in the army for some years, and I was very glad to hear from my hon. and gallant Friend at the head of the War Department, that he was doing his utmost to effect an improvement in the sanitary condition of our forces. It ought to be impressed not only upon the medical officers in charge of troops, but upon the combatant officers themselves, that to provide for the preservation of those who serve under them is one of their first duties. We are too apt to suppose that cure is everything; but what, let me ask, dues it effect for you in the army? It gives you men with constitutions debili 1326 tated by disease. It gives you pensioners whom you are obliged to pay, and who can do but little for you in return. But prevention gives you the fighting man, who repays by service the money which you may expend upon him. It would, I feel, be presumptuous on my part to express any opinion on the interesting statement of my right hon. and gallant Friend on another subject—I allude to Armstrong's gun. I may, however, be permitted to say, with respect to it, that it appears to me that being a discovery of the greatest importance, the Government deserve the utmost credit for their immediate adoption of this unequalled invention. I am aware that there are persons who say that to embark in a large outlay for the purpose of introducing into the service a weapon of this description, which is likely to be in a short time superseded by something better is impolitic. My answer to those who adopt that line of argument is, "Nations cannot afford to wait in the hope of securing this something better of which you speak." The true policy is to provide ourselves with the most efficient weapon which the present hour affords. The late Emperor Nicholas entertained, I believe, the idea that some invention would soon be brought to light in the scientific world by which railways would be completely superseded, and delayed in consequence the construction of those useful works. But in the meantime he lost Sebastopol owing to the want of a railroad to connect it with Moscow. I say, therefore, that whether with respect to steamships, guns, or anything else, it is unwise to wait for this something better, while other nations are arming themselves with the most effective weapons upon which they can lay their hands. I have heard it stated, however—I know not with what degree of truth—that however admirable for military purposes Armstrong's gun may be, there is some doubt as to its efficiency in naval warfare. The ground upon which that doubt is based is that a narrow bolt, projected with the greatest velocity, is that species of shot which does least injury to a ship. It passes through, making but a small hole, which is easily plugged, raises but few splinters, and kills a comparatively trifling number of men; while a shot of large calibre, and whose rate of velocity is slower, does infinitely greater damage, knocks may-be two port-holes into one, scatters splinters in every direction, and commits immense slaughter. The point 1327 was one on which scientific men alone can form a sound judgment, but it is, I think, one well worthy of attention when the applicability of Armstrong's gun to sea as well as to land service is to be considered. Now, with respect to the amount of the Estimates which have this evening been submitted to our notice, I can only say that they, as well as the number of men which we are asked to vote, seem very large. The amount of the Estimates is not, however, so great as it appears to be; for if you look to p.150 you will find there a very admirable table, which has been introduced for the first time, and which in my opinion will be found of the greatest use in pointing out the appropriation of money between the different manufacturing departments. From that table it appears that £419,235 of the sum set down as belonging to the Army Estimates properly speaking appertain to the naval service. Then there is a sum of £700,000 for old stores, which used formerly to be taken in deduction of the gross amount of the Estimates, but which now—I believe at the instigation of the hon. Member for Lambeth—is included in that amount. I confess I regret that the change should have been introduced, for there are few men who can scan these accounts and ascertain their true nature with the rapidity and accuracy of the hon. Baronet opposite (Sir H. Willoughby); and it may therefore escape the notice of many persons that the two sums which I have mentioned, making together over £1,100,000, ought to be deducted from the total of the Estimates for the Army during the ensuing year. I am, moreover, of opinion that my right hon. and gallant Friend is wrong in including in the strength of our military establishment the police force in Ireland, inasmuch as they are men who cannot be detached from their peculiar duty. Nor do I think it is right to include the disembodied militia, because although they constitute a reserve force, yet they are a reserve which is not at once available. So also with respect to recruits for the Indian depôts; they cannot, in my opinion, be taken fairly into account in calculating the number of our military force, for they are not available for service. But, although those Estimates are large, although the sum required for the Army and the Ordnance alone is very nearly as greet in amount as that which was wanted for the Army, the Ordnance, the Commissariat, and the Navy in 1835, yet they could not, I think, be 1328 safely reduced at the present moment. We must recollect that we are getting into a new cycle of years. The prestige and spell of a peace which had lasted since 1815 was broken in 1854. Since that time the whole of Europe has resounded with the din of arms. At this very moment vast military preparations are in progress on the Continent. A strong martial filing scents to pervade the world. England is now the only country of Europe in which peace and war are looked upon otherwise than as mere questions of policy and expediency. The deep-seated feeling of the people of this country I believe to be that, except in defence of some great interest or under provocation which cannot be borne without dishonour, war is a great crime. I am not of opinion that upon the Continent, except in the case of a few individuals, Lily such doctrine prevails. There men look upon peace or war, as I said before, as a question of expediency; but we who entertain different sentiments, are nevertheless obliged to arouse ourselves and prepare for any emergency which may arise in consequence of the state of feeling which exist in foreign countries. I think under these circumstances that the Committee will be doing no more than their duty in giving a hearty support to this Vote.
§ SIR JOHN TRELAWNYsaid, he was informed that officers suffered great disadvantages in consequence of certain warrants passed by the Horse-Guards within the last few years. In 1854 it was thought that great rectifications of abuses bad been obtained; but there was another warrant in 1858 entirely rescinding in some respects the former warrant. There had, therefore, been two revolutions, and officers said that they did not know what would befall them next. The effect of those already issued was that the claims of a number of deserving officers had been unjustly disregarded. In proof of that statement, he might mention that there was now serving in India an officer of great distinction, a colonel of a regiment, who had been made full colonel for gallant conduct, who had served thirty years, and yet who would find himself passed over by an officer of the Guards of less than twenty years' service, owing to the operation of the warrant of 1858. He would ask whether an attempt could not be made to render time warrants directing the course of promotion more precise in their language. At present their meaning was often very 1329 doubtful, and if precision could be ensured by no other means, it might be well to employ a special pleader to draw them up for the future. A feeling prevailed that the Horse-Guards read the warrants their own way. [General PEEL: The Horse-Guards have nothing to do with them.] With reference to Armstrong's gun, he would suggest that the present system of fortification should not be proceeded with until the effects of that invention bad been ascertained. This gun might revolutionize the whole art of war, and it would be very undesirable to incur an expenditure upon fortifications which might turn out wholly useless. With regard to army clothing, perhaps the Secretary for War would publish all the complaints made by colonels of regiments respecting the clothing supplied to them. The observations contained in these letters would, no doubt, be very shrewd and practical, and he thought they would be of service to the House. Great complaints had been made of the pressure put on officers with regard to promotions abroad, and he trusted that those in high position who exercised their influence in this manner, would not continue that practice. He believed some difficulty had arisen with respect to the Indian troops, who did not consider themselves bound by any engagements made with the Company, and who were under the impression that they were not bound to serve. That was a subject of considerable importance, and ought materially to affect the number of troops sent from this country. On the subject of the Foot Guards, who at present did not do colonial duty, he would add a word that at least one battalion should be sent to India, where they would gain experience, and would at the same time lighten the labours of the infantry.
COLONEL NORTHsaid, he must object to an expression made use of by the hon. and gallant General (Sir De Lacy Evans) with reference to officers on the recruiting service. According to the hon. and gallant General one would suppose that those officers were perfectly inefficient for service from age and infirmities. He (Colonel North) had the pleasure of being acquainted with a great many of those officers, and he believed a more efficient body of officers were not to be found. Most of them were in dm prime of life, and had been distinguished in active service. He had also heard many wonderful things from the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. W. Williams), but the most wonderful thing of all 1330 was his extraordinary grumble respecting the 500 generals. When the generals were increased to 262, they were not increased in proportion to the number of troops. If they had been, the number would have been 300 instead of 262. The hon. and gallant Member also complained of a statement made by the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Williams), who had said that there were too many generals in the English army, putting the number at 500, while the fact was there were not 300.
§ SIR DE LACY EVANSexplained, that, nothing could be further from his mind than to cast any imputation whatever on the officers employed on the recruiting service. He believed, on the contrary, that to their own honour and credit those officers had been selected for their present duties because they had performed very gallant and meritorious services in every part of the world.
§ COLONEL BOLDEROsaid, that for the last few years nothing had been done for the non-combatant officers of the army, and he was glad to find that such improvements had been made in the medical and commissariat branches of the service.
COLONEL KNOXsaid, he must object to the remarks made by the hon. Baronet (Sir J. Trelawny) on the Guards. He did not think the hon. Baronet was acquainted with the real facts. At another opportunity he should be prepared to enter fully into the subject. To his knowledge the Commander-in-Chief offered the services of a brigade of the Guards for India, but for some reason or other the East India Company declined the offer.
MR. PIGOTTurged, that one reason why recruiting for the army was not so good as it ought to be was the insufficient pensions granted to soldiers on their retirement.
§ MR. DRUMMONDsaid, he thought it was of no use giving an old soldier a pension unless it was sufficient to maintain him decently. Better not give so many pensions, but make them large enough to support a man. The present system had the effect of deterring men from entering the service.
CAPTAIN VIVIANsaid, in his opinion the whole of our system of recruiting was disastrous to the country. Whether a man became a soldier from enlisting in a state of drunkenness, or from accepting a bounty, the system was bad from the beginning; and he was delighted to hear the other night that it was the intention of Her 1331 Majesty's Government to submit the whole subject to the investigation of a Committee. If the result should be a more expensive article in the shape of a soldier, we should have a much better article, and one that in the end would be of less cost. At the same time he hoped means would be taken to let it be generally known how great had been the improvement in the condition of the soldier. He should have been glad to have heard some more particular account of the plan which it was proposed to adopt with regard to the barracks. Their state all over the kingdom, and more especially in the metropolis, was such as loudly called for improvement.
§ COLONEL SYKESsaid, the natural defence of the country was the navy; and he hoped it would be kept up in an efficient state. He wished to ask whether the twelve batteries to be sent out to India were part of the 7,878 men included in the present Vote.
GENERAL CODRINGTONsaid, he was glad to hear that an inquiry was about to be instituted into the principles and system on which recruiting was carried on. At present he regretted to say that several of the recruits were a disgrace to the service of which they ought to be the honour. The present system of recruiting was intolerably bad. It ought to have been abolished long ago, and in these days one would have expected to meet with it only on reading old novels. To tempt a man to enter into the army by giving him a bounty of a few pounds, which he would probably spend in two days, had a most demoralizing effect on the army. In time of peace we succeeded by this wretched means in procuring men for the army, but when a pressure came we failed miserably in obtaining a sufficiency of good men. The same was the case with the navy. This resulted from our not paying full value for the article at the time we wanted it. He thought that the estimate of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Wiltshire, that a soldier virtually received pay to the amount of 14s. a week, was too high. But, whether that was the amount or not which a soldier cost the country weekly, it should be recollected that a man on entering the army surrendered his liberty, his health, and his life. In past times and at present the English agricultural labourer was the best recruit we could obtain. His strength, power of endurance, steadiness, and moral 1332 character were the qualities required in a soldier. He did not deny that many quick and intelligent recruits were obtained from the manufacturing districts, but when you picked up from the streets persons devoid of stamina and character you threw away money upon a worthless article. Those persons could not endure fatigue, and had to be carried to the hospital almost as soon as they landed on a foreign shore. He hoped that for the future instructions would be given to the medical officers of the army to admit only such to it as were likely to be of service and not a burden to the country. He rejoiced to hear that energetic measures would be adopted for introducing the Armstrong gun into the service. England should have at her command, at whatever cost, the most destructive warlike weapons that could be invented. Paradoxical as it might sound, the introduction of such a weapon as the Armstrong gun would tend to diminish the destruction of life, for the greater the range of our guns the less necessary was it to expose the lives of our soldiers.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (2.) £3,724,474, Pay and Allowances (exclusive of India).
§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he thought that the hon. and gallant General had rather misunderstood his observations when ha supposed that he urged the desirability of relying upon the Native artillery of India. It was very well known that some of the best artillery in the world had existed in the shape of a European force formerly in the pay of the East India Company. The question he wished to have explained was, why that force should not be retained, as it was a force accustomed to the climate, and, as he was informed, could be maintained at one-half the expense of a similar force sent from this country.
§ MR. MONSELLsaid, he wished to call attention to some of the grievances under which the Royal Artillery and Engineers were suffering. Until these corps were brought under the Horse Guards, they could not expect the same share of staff appointments as the rest of the army. But when they were brought under the same command it was an understanding that officers of these corps should participate in those advantages. He wished to know how many officers of the scientific corps were employed on the staff? It was notorious that in the Russian and Sardinian services the highest grades of the 1333 service were open to officers in the Artillery, and why was that not so in our service? Again, it was a remarkable fact, that in our service there were fewer officers in the Artillery in proportion to the number of men than in any branch of the service. The Artillery had reason to complain that the advantages which were promised them several years ago when they were joined with the Engineers had not been accorded to them.
GENERAL PEELsaid, he could only assure the right hon. Gentleman that, as far as he knew of the matter, that understanding had been carried out. It was, however, his unpleasant duty to reduce the staff instead of to add to it. He quite agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that the Artillery and Engineers ought to have their fair share of promotions.
§ MR. MONSELLWould the hon. and gallant General say that any Artillery officer had been placed in a position of importance, except his hon. and gallant Friend below him (Sir William Fenwick Williams) the commandant of Woolwich, and one other General of Artillery now employed in Ireland?
§ SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, he concurred with the right hon. Gentleman in thinking that the Artillery officers had not their fair share of appointments. The Engineers were a special corps; but the Artillery united in their duties the functions of Infantry and Cavalry. No branch of the army, therefore, was more likely to be competent for employment than the Artillery.
SIR FREDERICK SMITHsaid, he thought that the gallant General had drawn rather an unfair distinction between the Artillery and the Engineers respecting those appointments. As far as regarded the knowledge of the art of war, he did not think it was just to say that the one corps was not as deserving of reward as the other. He would remind the Committee that General Cavaignac and other distinguished men in the French service belonged to the Engineers.
§ SIR DE LACY EVANSdisclaimed any intention of casting an imputation on the merits of the officers of Engineers.
§ MR. A. SMITHsaid, he wished the gallant and right hon. General to explain why the Vote for our home staff had so much increased of late years. This year it stood at £136,000, while last year it was only £112,000. There had been a gradual rise in this item, which five or six 1334 years ago was only £65,000. That was for the staff at home. Then the staff for the Australian Colonies had increased front £12,000 to £18,000; that for Canada had risen from £9,000 to £18,000; for the Cape of Good Hope it had risen in the same period from £15,000 to £29,500. A rise to about the same extent had taken place as to Gibraltar and the Ionian Islands, and he trusted that the right hon. and gallant General would give sonic explanation on the subject.
GENERAL PEELsaid, that the rise in the staff at home took place in consequence of the improvements which had been made during the course of the present year. The new Medical Warrants increased the pay of the medical officers, and the new Commissariat Warrants increased the pay of the commissariat officers. With regard to the Colonies, he should be extremely happy if they paid their own expenses, but while they came upon the Army Estimates, it would be necessary to charge them here.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that, as the number of men was to be 7,480 less in the present than in the first year, there ought to be a corresponding decrease in all the items. He observed, however, that £4,000 more was charged for the men's beer. In saving this, however, he begged it to be understood that he bad no wish to "rob the poor men of their beer!"
GENERAL PEELexplained that the increase was owing to the fact that the sum voted last year was quite insufficient in amount.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (3.) £562,369, Miscellaneous Charges (exclusive of India.)
§ SIR FREDERICK SMITHsaid, he wished to express the gratification he felt at observing that there had been a saving of £500 effected upon the allowances to the Deputy Judge Advocates, £1,000 upon the subsistence of men in confinement in civil gaols and barrack cells, and £9,000 upon regimental agency.
GENERAL CODRINGTONsaid, there were various expenses of recruiting which he desired to bring to the notice of the House. The total cost of recruiting was, in a round sum, £100,000. But he had made a calculation of the cost of desertion to the country from the Parliamentary returns for last year; and he found that during the first six months of 1858 the number of desertions from the Militia and the Army in England amounted to upwards of 13,000. If the six months' rate were 1335 to be taken for the whole year at the rate of £5 per cent. a man, a sum of £130,000 would be expended every year owing to desertions.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he thought the Deputy Judge Advocate General was a gentleman whose services might be dispensed with. In the matter of Divine Service he was not going to refuse the army that just privilege, but what were the duties of eighty-one commissioned chaplains at a cost of £19,700, and of more chaplains at a cost of £17,000? What was the meaning of the stock purse of the Guards? What was the meaning of £18,000 for the German military settlers at the Cape of Good Hope? Were they military, or what were they?
§ MR. MOWBRAYsaid, he could not allow the opportunity to pass without testifying to the zeal and ability of the gentleman who filled the office of Deputy Judge Advocate General, and from whom he received the greatest assistance. He was a gentleman who abandoned his profession, in which he was rising to distinction, and took the office which he had now filled for ten years.
§ MR. MONSELLsaid, he did not see any charge for the Director General of Artillery. Did the right hon. and gallant General mean to suppress the office, the only one of importance to which our artillery officers could aspire? There was a major-general to inspect the cavalry, a major-general to inspect the Guards, a lieutenant general to inspect the infantry, and was there to be no officer to inspect the Artillery?
GENERAL PEELexplained, that the increased charge for chaplains arose from the changes explained by him already as having been introduced into the army. The Government found, on coming into office, that the army was divided between three forms of religion—the English Church, the Presbyterian, and the Roman Catholic. Consequently, when there was no chaplain attached of the religion to which some of the regiment belonged, these men were marched from parade to the nearest clergyman of the persuasion in question. When he took office also, the chaplains were paid according to a sort of sliding scale, namely, 10s. for a member of the Church of England, 7s. 6d. for a Presbyterian, and 5s. for a Roman Catholic. He had, however, placed all chaplains, whatever their religious persuasion, upon exactly the same footing, the remuneration of each being proportionate 1336 to the number of troops who benefited by his ministrations.
SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, that when the German military settlers went out it was understood that the whole of the expense relating to them was to be borne by the colonial fund. Last year the amount that had been voted fur them was £309,476, and this year it was £18,133. He wished to know whether the Government contemplated using them as part of the usual troops of the Cape, or as a part of their ordinary military force, and intended to apply for further grants for them in ensuing years?
GENERAL PEELwas afraid that this was not the last that the right bon. Gentleman would hear of these German settlers; because, although the arrangement made with them was that they should receive half-pay for a certain number of years, they had, he believed, been kept on full pay ever since their arrival in the colony. More than one-half of them had enlisted in the Indian army, and were now serving in India. This was the last year during which they were to receive half-pay, and therefore, so far as these Estimates were concerned, they would not again come under the notice of the House.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (4.) £150,000, Embodied Militia.
GENERAL PEELsaid, that this sum was to be voted for the pay of those regiments of Militia which would supply the place of regiments of the line which were upon the establishment, but were now serving in India, and were paid out of the revenues of that country, The amount was deducted from the general Vote for the pay and allowances of the troops. It might have been transferred from that Vote by the authority of the Treasury; but he thought that it was better that it should appear as a separate Vote.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (5.) —88,000, Volunteer Corps.
MR. BERKELEYsaid he drew a distinction between the volunteer force employed as a rifle or artillery force, and that employed as mounted yeomen. No one could deny that our nearest neighbour possessed a navy equal to our own and an army superior to ours. He held, that in the present state of the defences of the country, the people would not hear of £80,000 being spent on a mounted yeomanry force which was merely a toy of the nobility. 1337 He knew he would bring upon himself a large amount of squirearchical indignation, and he was prepared to bear it; but to prevent it as much as possible, he would admit at the outset that he considered them individually as brave as Julius Cæsar, but as a corps, they were very bad soldiers and inefficient constables. How could they make efficient cavalry corps out of forty-eight hours' drill? It took three or four months before a trooper could be placed on his horse and twelve months before a common cavalry recruit was fit to enter the field, and then he was not so good as he might be. Then in Heaven's name, how could these men be trained? Were they born horse soldiers? He said, therefore, take these men off their horses and place in their hands the rifle, which was equivalent in modern times to what the bow was in ancient times. Let the country gentlemen then put up targets in their parks, and place themselves at the head of their men, as their ancestors did in the days of Agincourt and Cressey. But while they allowed this tomfoolery to go on with the squirearchy, they turned their backs on the middle classes, who came forward and said, We are unacquainted with the use of arms—give us weapons, and let us practice the use of that fatal weapon which was lately invented. If they answered that prayer they might in the event of an invasion turn every hedge into a fortress, instead of having a cowed, frightened, and panic-stricken population. But this reasonable petition was not listened to; he himself had presented a petition for this purpose from the mayor and corporation of Bristol as the gallant General knew [General PEEL, "Hear!"] It was said that there was a hitch somewhere at the Horse Guards, but he hoped the gallant General would get rid of it and establish these corps of volunteers. In the meantime he would move that this Vote be expunged.
COLONEL KNOXsaid, he had never heard in that House a speech more indiscreet and absurd than that of the hon. Gentleman. He himself was in the yeomanry and had been for twenty-five years in the army, and knew something of both forces. It was an ancient and most constitutional force, and as to their forty-eight hours' drill, he could assure the Committee that for the seven days they were out at drill they were at the work from morning till night. The yeomanry corps was most efficient in internal disturbances, because each yeoman knew his man in an excited crowd, 1338 and said as he rode along, "John Thomas, I'll mark you." The effect was indescribable, because the ringleaders knew they were marked men. He should like to see the hon. Gentleman at the head of the Bristol volunteers. No doubt they would prove a most unruly, insubordinate corps, and would make the hon. Gentleman exclaim—"I have raised the devil, and I can't put him down again!" They would be shooting here and shooting there all over the country, and the day might come when they would shoot the hon. Gentleman or any one else. The only suggestion he could make was that a battery of artillery should be added to the yeomanry.
§ MR. WYLDsaid, he believed that the loyalty and patriotism of the middle classes had prevented the threatened invasion from Bonaparte. Since then the moral tone of the people had much improved, and all classes were heartily attached to the Throne and the institutions of the country. There was not reason then to suppose that the people of this country if taught the use of arms would turn them against the Government.
MR. PIGOTTsaid, that no class of men in the world knew how to manage a horse better than the farmers of England, and he would suggest that if the hon. Member for Bristol was generous enough to offer a cup for competition among the yeomanry troops of his own or any other district he would soon find out, that at all events they knew very well how to ride.
GENERAL CODRINGTONsaid he thought that it was of the utmost importance that the peasantry of the country should be taught rifle practice. They would then feel confidence in themselves, and prove a most important aid should an invasion ever be attempted.
GENERAL SIR W. F. WILLIAMSsaid, he also concurred in the opinion that if the peasantry were trained to the use of arms they would become invaluable. Not only would they prove invaluable guides in a country teeming with hedgerows, but would, if trained, be the best force that could be devised against an invading army.
§ MR. AYRTONsaid, he would appeal to the hon. Member for Bristol to withdraw his Motion, and to ask for a Committee to consider the propriety of establishing rifle corps throughout the country. He himself was in favour of a volunteer force for the defence of the country; but the yeomanry was a volunteer corps, and for that reason ought to be maintained.
§ MAJOR EDWARDSIt was not my intention to have troubled the House with any remarks upon this occasion, but I cannot allow this discussion to pass without expressing my opinion upon the subject of the importance of the yeomanry as a part of our national defences. Yeomanry regiments are composed of men who are taken from all classes of society in this country. In them you have the farmer and the shopkeeper, the mechanic and the peasant, associating together, presided over by the nobility and gentry of England, and forming in the aggregate a force which is more constitutional than any other, and which might be relied on to the utmost in case an invasion should ever be attempted, and which, though some people affect to think a very improbable contingency, it is as well to provide against. With regard to the drilling of the yeomanry, I differ most materially from the hon. Member for Bristol. That hon. Gentleman has chosen to say that the men are drilled only forty-eight hours in the year. I can tell him that the yeomanry regiment to which I have the honour to belong is drilled more than ten times that period, and the same remark, I believe, applies to most other regiments, for although only paid for eight days' duty by the Government during their annual training, many of the men are out in detachments or troops once or twice during the week for six months under permanent serjeants, and generally in the presence of some of their officers. Believing as I do that this is one of the best forces that can possibly be organized, I hope that the hon. Member will not, when the Estimates come before the House next year, grudge a great extension to so constitutional a force. It is one which I think might even be doubled with great advantage to the country, and I believe that the country would not object to see it thus extended. No one will deny it furnishes us with good horsemen. In my regiment we have riding schools in each town, and these buildings have been erected for its use by the inhabitants. My experience is that all classes have shown themselves interested in the yeomanry. So far from causing by their conduct a bad feeling in the neighbourhood to which they belong, I can bear testimony to the fact that the very best possible feeling exists, and, instead of their being, as was stated by the hon. Gentleman. "despised and disregarded," I car tell him that they are very much respecter by all classes of Her Majesty's loyal sub 1340 jects. I believe they are able and willing to assist in protecting the interests of their country whenever they may be called upon, and of this I am convinced, that they are always found a most valuable force for the protection of the districts in which they reside. But even if, as has been alleged by some hon. Gentlemen, they would under the present system be useless acting against an organized military force, I contend that they are of the greatest possible advantage when their services are called into requisition for the purpose of quelling intestine disturbances. Many hon. Gentlemen might recollect the services which they rendered during the riots which occurred in the country so recently as in the year 1842, and their efforts upon that occasion were gratefully acknowledged by the Government. As a marked instance of their energy and activity, I may mention that, out of the 111 men of which the Halifax squadron of the 2nd West Yorkshire Regiment is composed, 101 marched in the middle of the night, having had only five hours' notice, from that town to Bradford, to assist the regular troops when danger was apprehended by the authorities; many of the men living at a distance of five miles from the town. What more valuable source can there be for the formation of good cavalry than is to be found in the yeomanry troops? I tell bon. Members that it is to this force and the militia they will have to look for the forces which will be required for Home Service when at any future time it is necessary to employ our army abroad. A gallant officer on the other side of the House has made some allusion with respect to the propriety of arming the yeomanry troops, and the people generally, with rifles. This I quite approve as regards the former, but at the same time I should altogether disapprove of that becoming a general practice among civilians in this country. We have, Sir, a pretty fair example in France of the effect of training every one of the population to the use of arms. Whether such a practice would tend to strengthen the Government of the country or not, is a point upon which I will leave hon. Gentlemen to form their own opinion. I do not think it would; but I except from these observations regiments which are now taught the use of the carbine. This arm cannot be said to be as efficient as the rifle, and therefore I trust that the Secretary at War will think proper, as soon as practicable, to substitute 1341 the rifle for the carbine, as in the regular cavalry; for bad as the present carbine is compared with that recently given to many of our cavalry regiments, its use has not been altogether neglected. I believe it to be a common custom in most regiments for the officers to give prizes to the best marksman in each troop, producing an amount of rivalry amongst the men Which cannot be too much encouraged. I say, Sir, that properly armed, there is no body of men who in the fastnesses of Yorkshire and Lancashire, or of many other parts of this kingdom, from their great knowledge of the country; intersected as it is with so many hedges, roads, streams, and other obstacles to the progress of an enemy's force, would prove so valuable and so efficient as a well trained yeomanry corps.
§ MR. CROSSLEYcould not agree at all with the hon. Member for Bristol on this question, considering that the yeomanry were most valuable as a means of quelling all local disturbances. In an emergency of that kind the object was to disperse the mob and not to shoot them down.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he also would join in the appeal made to the hon. Member for Bristol to withdraw his Amendment.
MR. H. BERKELEY, in reply, said he Would not press his Amendment, as he had attained his object, which was to elicit an opinion touching the necessity for rifle practice.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ House resumed.
§ Resolutions to be reported on Monday next.
§ House adjourned at half after Twelve o'clock till Monday next.