HC Deb 22 July 1859 vol 155 cc271-3
MR. E. P. BOUVERIE

said, he rose to ask whether it is proposed to fill up the vacant office of Assistant Secretary to the Poor-Law Board consequent upon the appointment of the former holder of the office to the chief secretaryship, vacated by the Earl of Devon. There were no loss than four Secretaries in this department—a Parliamentary Secretary, a principal Secretary, and two Assistant Secretaries. From his experience of the business of the Board he could say there was no necessity for two Assistant Secretaries, and by the abolition of the office there would be saved to the country a sum of £900 per annum. It was a small matter, but it was small matters which went to swell the miscellaneous expenditure.

SIR JOHN TROLLOPE

said, he quite agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that the Poor-Law Board had more Secretaries than were needed to do the business. He hoped, therefore, that the office now vacant would not be filled up. Although the amount involved might be small the saving of even £500 a year would be an earnest of the intention of the House to effect all possible reduction in the expenditure of the country. He was glad that the noble Lord at the head of the Government had promoted an able and meritorious public servant to the office of Chief Secretary.

MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT

ob-served that he was not prepared to state that the vacant office was necessary, but he wished to express the hope that if it should not be be filled up, care would be taken at the same time to preserve such an establishment as would suffice to conduct the business of the department in the same admirable manner as hitherto.

MR. C. P. VILLIERS

said, he could not but regret that his right hon. Friend the Member for Kilmarnock (Mr. Bouverie) had not taken a more appropriate opportunity than the present for bringing this subject before the House. The right hon. Gentleman had neither taken any objection to the Vote when it passed some days ago, nor had he communicated with him afterwards or before the appointment, and which the right hon. Gentleman know was already made. When he acceded to office his noble Friend directed him to inquire whether the vacancy alluded to was one which ought to be filled up, and he had accordingly sought for information from those who were best acquainted with the business of the Board. He applied to the Earl of Devon, who had filled with the greatest ability the office of secretary, and to the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Sotheron Estcourt), and opinions more unequivocal, more decided, or leaving him less option, could not be given. The Earl of Devon, who having left the office had no interest in his opinion, declared that, unless the appointment were made, the business of the office would be thrown into confusion, and he ventured to say that the views of the right hon. Gentleman were hardly expressed in less strong terms. He (Mr. Villiers) regretted, indeed, that the right hon. Gentleman had not repeated to-night the purport of the advice he had given, or indeed the expressions he had used, recommending that the office should be retained. The only other authority he could refer to, was the Report of a Committee especially appointed by the Treasury, to inquire into the Poor Law Establishment, and to which the right hon. Gentleman had just referred, and he found that this particular office was pointed to as one really essential to preserve the efficiency of the department. On making further inquiry he found that the experiment of discontinuing the services of the Assistant Secretary was once actually made, and the vacancy continued open two years, but then, at the particular request of Sir G. Nicholls, than whom no man was better acquainted with the requirements of the office, the appointment was again made. On this occasion there were a great number of applications from persons who had no connection with the establishment, and who, he regretted to say, he had disappointed; but having heard that in such cases the Civil Service Commissioners had suggested that whenever it was possible it was most desirable to promote gentlemen already in the office to the higher situations, he appointed the gentlemen with whom he had no previous acquaintance who held the next most important office, and who had for upwards of twenty-three years discharged its duties with great zeal and efficiency, and whose salary was only increased thereby to £60. He had no interest himself in the matter, but he had shrunk from the responsibility of not filling up a place that was deemed, upon the best authority, to be essential to the efficiency of the establishment.

MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT

said, that in what had just fallen from him he did not intend to give an opinion in favour of the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bouverie), but only to warn the President of the Poor-Law Board that if he made any alteration at all he ought to retain as many heads of the department as at present.