HC Deb 12 July 1859 vol 154 cc1062-74
MR. BAILLIE COCHRANE

rose to move— That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to instruct the Civil Service Examiners that all persons who entered any service or profession prior to the 21st day of May, 1855, to which service or profession the present system of examinations is applicable, shall be considered eligible for promotion without being subjected to any examination. He trusted that a proposition so just and equitable would not meet with any opposition on the part of the House. He had fixed upon the date of the 21st of May, because that was the day on which the Order in Council was issued, which appointed the Commissioners for conducting the examination of young men who were candidates for employment in the public service. Now, so much hardship had been occasioned by the severe manner in which the principle of examination had been carried out, that he was sure that when the House was aware of the facts, they would gladly accede to his Motion. He might state case upon case of young men who had entered different public offices as temporary clerks, three, four, or five years previous to the Order in Council, and who, subsequent to 1855, on their being appointed to permanent clerkships, had been put in competition with other gentlemen who had the advantage of having recently left school. The consequence was that they, though not inefficient, but because they had a smaller number of marks than the gentlemen they were put in competition with, lost their promotion and were compelled to leave the service they had selected at an ago when it was impossible for them to engage in a new profession. It was desirable not to state names publicly, but he was prepared to communicate them to the Chancellor of the Exchequer. One case had been brought to his knowledge that day. It was the case of an officer who had conferred very great and eminent services on this country, and whose son had been put into one of the public offices about nine years ago as a temporary clerk. Last year this gentleman's son went up for examination, and, having three or four other gentlemen appointed to compete with him, he was defeated, and was, he believed, out of the profession at the present moment. He had received yesterday a letter, in which the writer called attention to the position in which these persons were placed. The writer, whoso name he should be happy to communicate to the Chancellor of the Exchequer privately, if it were required, pressed upon him the vast importance of his present Motion, as on its success depended the hopes of many intelligent and well-educated youth, who were well fitted for and tried in the service, and directed his attention to the position in which those young gentlemen found themselves placed, with many others similarly situated. In one instance, the writer proceeded to say, a gentleman entered the Admiralty as temporary clerk in July, 1854, during the pressure of business consequent on the late war; he was constantly employed, and in some months until such a late hour of the evening, that it was impossible for him to devote time to the studies which the Civil Service Commissioners required; and now he found that owing to the competition coming into operation, which he never dreamt of when he entered the service, he had been passed over again and again, simply because his school knowledge could not be so rapidly displayed in examination as that of competitors. He would mention another case of equal hardship. A gentleman had been eight years in one office, when he was promoted to another. This was only a fair step of promotion after his previous period of hard work; but, not having had the opportunity, like his competitors, of getting up the information which was acceptable to the Commissioners, he lost in the competition, and was thrown out of the profession. It might be said that temporary clerks were not on the establishment; but if that were so it ought to be publicly stated, that people might know on what terms their relatives entered the public service. He would take the case of an unpaid attaché, whom no one could say was not in the public service. There were among the class of unpaid attachés gentlemen who had worked hard for seven, eight, or nine years, who had been sent to unhealthy climates, and who were not aware at the time of their appointments that before they were promoted they would be subjected to a stringent examination. Had they been aware when they entered the service that they would be required to submit to such an ordeal, they might have chosen some other profession; but now, if they failed in passing the examination, they would be thrown out of the public service when they had reached an age at which it might be impossible for them to adopt any other profession. Now, he was not speaking in a spirit of hostility to the system of examination — on the contrary, he thought it most fortunate for the country that—though so late as 1855—a system of public examination should at length have been instituted for the military and civil services. No one who read the Reports of the Examiners could fail to appreciate the conduct of those gentlemen who had maintained the necessity of a system of examination. On the first examination, in answer to some of the questions, the following answers were given:—That the Roman walls in England were built to keep the Tartars from invading the country, and were so thick that two carriages could be driven abreast; that the great plot which was discovered in the year 1678 was the South Sea scheme; that William Wallace invaded England in the reign of Henry VIII.; that the battle of Barnet was between Cromwell and Charles I., Culloden between the Earl of Leicester and Edward IV., and Marston Moor between Bruce and Edward IV.; that Marseilles is a town upon the Rhine; that Germany is in the Caspian Sea; that the Thames rises in the German Ocean; that Zante is the kingdom most recently added to Europe; and that the Isle of Wight is a part of Scotland. It was quite inconceivable how gentlemen could have ventured to go up for examination to give—unless in joke—such extraordinary answers. He thought, however, that many of the questions which were put were scarcely fair to the candidates. He would read to the House some of the questions put to persons who were applying for admission to the Irish police force:— Explain fully the meaning of the following geographical terms:—'Peninsula,' 'promontory,' 'estuary,' 'delta,' 'plateau,' 'watershed,' and give three instances of each. Describe the position of the following places:—St. Helena, St. Albans, Corfu, Toronto, Salisbury, Copenhagen, Agra, Vienna, Inverary, Singapore, Stirling, Cairo, Nillala, Meerut, Hastings, Owhyhee. Write a geographical description of any one country of Ancient Europe, stating its boundaries, physical features, products, manufactures, divisions, and principal towns. Now, he thought it would be admitted that these questions were scarcely less absurd than the answers he had previously read; and however desirable it might be that this kind of knowledge should be possessed by a police constable, he doubted whether it was necessary for the preservation of the peace in Ireland. It might be so that the examinations to which unpaid attachés were subjected were such as gentlemen in their position ought to be competent to pass, but he confessed that on looking over the examination papers he did not think there were thirty Members of that House: who could answer many of the questions. It must be remembered that candidates for appointments as unpaid attachés were generally lads of seventeen or eighteen years of age, but they were asked such questions as these:— Explain fully the nature of the important change that was introduced in the tenure of land in Prussia in 1811, and its effects both present and probable. Write a geographical description of Denmark, mentioning its situation, extent, population, features, mineral, and vegetable products. Explain the following terms:—'Amter,' 'Stifter, Folksthing amtman,' 'Tons of hardcom, Landsting.' Discuss the most important political questions which have agitated Ireland for the last thirty years, mentioning the enactments they may have led to, and the eminent men who have taken a prominent part in connection with them. What was the constitution of the Canadas established in 1791? Mention the most important alterations which have been subsequently introduced. Now, though he himself (Mr. Cochrane) had studied the history of our Colonies to some extent, he really should not like to be called upon to answer such questions as these. Candidates had also been required to write a letter to a friend describing how they had been employed during the last year, and what were their hopes of entering the civil services. Some of these questions really seem to have been devised in a spirit of raillery rather than seriously. As he had before said, he was not opposed to the system of examination, but he thought that if next year some hon. Member of consideration and influence would move for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the effect of these examinations upon different branches of the public services the investigation might not be without advantage. He thought it was very doubtful whether the result of these examinations had been so satisfactory as they were led to suppose. It might be so that the Civil Service Examiners were not themselves responsible for the character of the examinations, which were probably directed by the Secretaries of State; but he thought recent circumstances showed that the Secretaries of State had urged the Examiners not to render their examinations too stringent and severe. He found the late Secretary for War, General Peel, complaining of the number of commissions vacant in the Household cavalry, the Life Guards, the cavalry of the line, and the infantry, and stating that it was evident that under the present system of examination the supply would not keep pace with the demand; Lord Mahnesbury had made a similar complaint with regard to the Foreign Office, and had stated that within six months four young men had been rejected, all of whom he believed were fully competent for the duties of attachés, two of them being remarkable for general accomplishments, and especially for their knowledge of languages. The noble Earl added that it appeared not to be premature or disrespectful towards the Commissioners to ask if they were not straining the cord too tightly, and if not, how under such a system the Queen's service in diplomacy was to be recruited and carred on. Although he (Mr. Cochrane) thought some examination was necessary for these positions previously to 1855, he feared they had rushed into an extreme in the opposite direction. He might remind the House that, under the old system, the character of their diplomatic agents had not been inferior to that of the diplomatists of any country. He need only mention such names as those of Lord Ponsonby, Lord Stratford de Redcliffe, Lord Cowley, Sir Henry Bulwer, Lord Napier, and Lord Lyons. They could not forget, either, that previous to the institution of examinations for commissions in the military service, the officers both of our army and navy, though they had never undergone this examination, had never failed to vindicate the national honour. He only asked the House and the Government to do justice to a most deserving class of young men who had entered the public service previously to the introduction of examinations, by agreeing that the new regulations should not have a retrospective effect.

Motion made, and Question proposed,— That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to instruct the Civil Service Examiners that all persons who entered any service or profession prior to the 21st day of May, 1855, to which service or profession the present system of examinations is applicable, shall be considered eligible for promotion without being subjected to any examination.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

My hon. Friend who has submitted this Motion has very ingeniously stated that a considerable portion of his speech did not relate to it; and it is material that he should himself have admitted this, because the same portion of his address—if it be not invidious to draw a distinction between different parts of it—was the one that was most effective and that seemed most to amuse the House; for the hon. Gentleman was successful in provoking the laughter of hon. Members when he recited certain questions put in certain examinations. On the other hand it is important to recollect that all this has no connection whatever with the Motion now before us. As part of a general discussion on the system of examination established under the Civil Service Commissioners it might be well to quote such isolated questions. At the same time I venture to remind the House that we have been very busy of late years, and with great public advantage, in urging and even compelling the Universities to adopt examination where they had not adopted it, and to extend it further where it already existed; and few indeed of the examinations in the Universities, if tested by particular questions picked out ingeniously for the purpose, and announced before an audience which necessarily has not bad time to look at the matter in all its bearings, would not probably lead to the inference that those who had put them had been guilty of great want of judgment and had pushed the system to excess. The truth is, when the time comes for inquiring into the system now in operation, it must be inquired into much more at large; and then these remarks of the hon. Gentleman, which are irrelevant to this particular and limited Motion, may be perfectly germane to the discussion. It seems to me that my hon. Friend has very exaggerated ideas of the hardship or injustice which has been done to any one under the working of this scheme; and I think the time that has elapsed since it was established, and the paucity, or the almost total absence of complaints to which it has given rise, may show that the Commissioners have not been guilty of that tendency to overstrain their system which he seems to impute to them. Indeed, I for one am convinced that if it be true that its present working is imperfect, it will deserve consideration whether this imperfection is not owing to the very timid and hesitating manner in which the principles on which the Commissioners wish to found it have been applied. My hon. Friend knows very well that in its present position the system is only in a stage of transition—that it does not rest on the principle of pure competition, nor, indeed, upon any one given principle which is so fully and fairly brought to an issue that you can condemn or absolve it by that principle; but that it is a mixture of many methods, applied according to the varying opinions of the heads of different Departments, and not according to any rigidly consistent or abstract rules; but operating on the whole usefully and in the manner in which, in England at least, a great many practical problems of Government are usually settled with greater satisfaction to the public than they otherwise would be. I now come to my hon. Friend's Motion itself. He moves:— That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to instruct the Civil Service Examiners that all persons who entered any service or profession prior to the 21st day of May, 1853, to which service or profession the present system of examinations is applicable, shall be considered eligible for promotion without being subjected to any examination. In the first place I do not think my bon. Friend, in the limited ground he has chosen, has shown sufficient reasons for any interference on the part of this House; and, in the second place, if the House is to interfere at all. I think it is quite clear that it ought not to be by a Motion like this. He will allow me to remind him that, where it is sought to deal with a great public abuse which prevailed before independent examinations were established, the general tendency of speeches such as his is much more to discredit the attempts made to cure that abuse than to discredit the abuse itself. No doubt his admission as to the necessity of some examination is perfectly sincere; but it is merely parenthetical, all his energy and fire being reserved for the supposed excesses of the Commissioners, who are labouring under circumstances of no ordinary difficulty to introduce a purer system of admission to the public service. What, then, are his grounds for interference? He assumes that fair consideration has not been shown in the application of the new rules to vested interests. And how does he show that particular classes of persons require protection? He cites two sets of cases: first, that of persons who were employed as temporary clerks in the public offices at the time when the Order in Council of the 21st of May, 1855, did not exist, and who are subjected to examination before they can be appointed permanent clerks; and, secondly, the cases of gentlemen who were appointed to he unpaid attachés prior to the same Order in Council, and who on passing over to the position of paid servants of the public have to undergo an examination which did not exist when they became unpaid attachés. Now, I think neither of these instances furnishes any ground for the interference of this House. I shall take first the case of the attachés, which will also illustrate the other remark I have to make —namely, that the Motion of my hon. Friend is hardly suited to the object he has in view. He desires the House to pray Her Majesty to be pleased to instruct the Civil Service Examiners to protect certain persons against examinations which are supposed to do them injustice. It would surely he strange if Her Majesty were to instruct those Examiners to disobey the orders of Her own Secretary of State. The Civil Service Examiners have no independent authority whatever in this matter. Whatever authority they possess is derived either from the heads of Departments — that is, in the case of the attachés, from the Foreign Secretary—or else from the Order in Council passed by Her Majesty upon the advice of the Government, and for which the Government, as a whole, are responsible. And all that the Commissioners are bound to do is strictly to adhere to the directions they have received. If they receive orders from the Foreign Secretary, on those orders they must act until they have been altered or retracted as formally as they were originally given. If they are acting under the provisions of the Order in Council, they must continue to execute those provisions even, if need be, against the Secretary of State, until Her Majesty has been advised to change what She was previously advised to adopt. In regard to the attachés, then, the Civil Service Examiners have simply carried out the instructions given by Lord Clarendon in December. 1855, nearly four years ago; and, in point of fact, the great bulk of those then unpaid attachés, and on whose behalf, if on behalf of any one complaint might have been made, have be-come paid attachés and underwent an examination before their promotion. The hon. Gentleman has not shown that there is anything unreasonable in the direction given by Lord Clarendon, nor is it likely that any one else will be able to prove it so. The matter is obviously one in which, before this House interferes to qualify the operations of a Secretary of State, there should be something in the nature of a formal and careful inquiry. The House itself is the proper tribunal, and therefore this cannot be made the subject of an appeal to Her Majesty. I am not prepared to admit that there is any pritnâ facie ground for supposing, much less for asserting, that the declaration of Lord Clarendon is unreasonable. Nobody could have taken a calmer or more moderate view of the whole subject of these examinations than that noble Lord; but he was desirous that, although not unrestrictedly competitive, the system should be a reality, and no longer a form or a screen, and therefore he said that unpaid attachés should be examined in a particular manner, and also that paid attachés should undergo another examination. Is there any breaking of faith with a man in requiring him to prove that he is fit for the position he seeks to occupy? It appears to me, then, that this part of the case, as a ground for this Motion, is entirely untenable. I think all fair regulations to secure competency arc applicable to those who enter the permanent service, even though adopted after they have entered that permanent service; but here the case is that of persons who had not entered the permanent service at all. We all know it is not uncommon for young men to become unpaid attachés in order that they may secure a few months' residence under the most favourable circumstances at a foreign Court, find this without any intention to enter the permanent service. If, however, they afterwards wished to become paid attachés, they have to undergo an examination as to their competency; and the hon. Member has not shown that such a condition goes beyond what is perfectly reasonable. My hon. Friend also referred to the case of temporary clerks, and proposed that they should have the same rights, as far as examination was concerned, as the members of the permanent service. I do not think the House will adopt that proposition. A temporary clerk is that which his name declares him to be. He has no right of succession whatever; he is employed from time to time; the conditions of the public compact with him are amply and literally fulfilled, and we are perfectly entitled to ask before he is allowed to cross the threshold of the permanent service that he should be subjected to an examination in order to test his competency. My hon. Friend alluded to one or two particular cases, but stated that for obvious reasons he could not give the names. I do not blame him for withholding the names, but he knows perfectly well that nothing could be more unfair than to take the character of an examination from the impressions of rejected candidates. It is an ex parte statement, where the parties who make it may possibly be under the action of strong feelings, and where, at all events, they must be under the immense disadvantage of imperfect information. If my hon. Friend were to examine into the particulars of the cases which he has adduced, I suspect he would find, when he heard the other side, that the facts are somewhat different from what they naturally appear to him to be from the representations of persons interested in the rejected candidates. My opinion is, therefore, that the Motion before the House is objectionable, not only in point of form, but upon its merits. I believe it would be ruinous to the public service. The Commissioners have reduced their demands within the narrowest limits compatible with the efficiency of the public service; but, even were it otherwise, I think my hon. Friend has not raised the question in a convenient form, inasmuch as, instead of asking the House to go into the general merits of the civil service examination, he takes his ground merely upon the plea of the vested interests of certain parties. For these and other reasons I nope he will not think it worth his while to press his Motion to a division.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

believed too much importance was attached to this system of examination in the public department. It certainly had had the effect of preventing persons with interest who could hardly read or write from getting appointments; but the object would be much better attained by adopting the same course in the selection of public servants as was taken by merchants and manufacturers in the choice of their clerks. That would be better than asking those unaccountable and foolish questions. If a man had been some years in the public service, the inquiry should not be whether he could answer outrageous and out-of-the-way questions, but whether he had properly discharged the duties which had been before intrusted to him.

MR. MONSELL

said, the hon. Gentle-man who introduced the Motion had entirely mistaken the object of the Civil Service Commissioners in putting the questions referred to. The object was not to ascertain whether a man had special knowledge of a particular subject, but they were simply a test of his intelligence. One question asked was, what was the most important measure with regard to Ireland brought forward for the last thirty years. He would say nothing had been more important than that of competitive examination; it had given the greatest possible stimulus to education. In every public office the distinction between temporary and permanent clerk was well known, and could not be done away with. He hoped the Motion would not be pressed; but if it was he should give it his most strenuous opposition, as he believed it was intended as an attack upon the whole system of examination.

MR. CLIFFORD

rose for the purpose of calling the attention of the House to a view of this subject which had not yet engaged the public notice, but in which great injustice was often wrought by competitive examination. Three candidates would be put to compete for the same office, and the first of the three would gain his thousand marks, whilst the second and third might have respectively 900 and 800 marks, and therefore be unsuccessful. The following day three other candidates would be put to compete, and the successful candidate would have but 700 marks, and yet be successful; so that the second and third of the former day appeared as plucked men, whilst the inferior man of the second day was successful.

CAPTAIN JERVIS

thought it very hard that when a temporary clerk was appointed to the permanent establishment the time which he had served as a temporary clerk should not be counted to him.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

This matter is one which as of necessity attracted a great deal of my attention, and I have no hesitation in saying that though, like other arrangements, there may be some defects in the system, it has tended very much to the advantage of the public service. It is quite true that it has frequently operated to shut out from the public service young men who might have been perfectly competent to perform the duties of the office for which they were competitors; but, on the other hand, it is quite certain that those who have succeeded have been in every way young men who were peculiarly qualified for the discharge of their duties. I have had occasion frequently to represent to the Civil Service Commissioners that some of the questions were open to that sort of criticism which the hon. Gentleman opposite has passed upon them —namely, that the knowledge required to answer them was not essential to the performance of the duties of the office competed for; but the answer which I have received from them is one to which it would be difficult to make any reply. They stated that their course was to examine upon certain matters of which a knowledge was essential — such as English composition, arithmetic, spelling, and some amount of mathematical knowledge; but then, they say, "it happens that the four, five, or six young men who are examined in these matters are apparently equally well grounded in them; and we add some other questions upon other matters to test their general intelligence, and to see which of them have gone beyond these elementary matters. These supernumerary questions are not those upon which any young man would be rejected, but they serve to test the comparative intelligence of the young men and the amount of education which they have received." That appears to me to he a sufficient and satisfactory answer. The young man who has made a mistake in arithmetic or spelling cannot be conscious of it, or he would not have made it; but he is perfectly conscious of not having been able to answer one of those redundant questions, and he goes home to his friends and says he has been rejected because he could not answer one of these questions—could not tell where Owyhee was, or something of that sort. That is a mistake. He is rejected, not because he is unable to answer those redundant questions, but because he has failed on one of the elementary matters, the knowledge of which was essential to the performance of the duties of the post which he sought. There is undoubtedly a prejudice in some quarters against the sys-tem of competitive examination, but I think it would be done away with if people were aware of the real principle on which it is conducted. Although the system may operate harshly upon some young men, on the whole it has given a stimulus to the system of education all over the country; it has set masters of schools, parents, friends, and guardians to look more closely into the process of education, and by that widespread operation it must tend to improve immensely the intelligence of the country. With regard to this particular Motion, I trust the hon. Member will not think it necessary to press it, because it is quite clear that those young men who have taken temporary clerkships knew very well when they took them that they were temporary, and they have no right or just claim to be transferred to the permanent establishment without going through the process of examination which is established for all other permanent clerks. An unpaid at-taché is perfectly aware that his future promotion in his profession depends upon his conduct in that position, and I cannot see that there is any hardship in requiring him to go through the same examination as other attachés.

MR. BAILLIE COCHRANE

, in with- drawing the Motion said, the discussion would have the good effect of making it known to the public that those who put their sons in the position of temporary clerks must never expect to have them transferred to the permanent establishments.

Motion, by leave, withdrawn.