HC Deb 08 July 1859 vol 154 cc873-7
MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALD

said, when, Sir, I gave notice last night of my intention to ask the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs the Question, I did so under the notion that I was by that means adopting the fittest mode of dealing with the matter. I would abstain from pressing any question which the Secretary for Foreign Affairs should not think it desirable to be intruded, but I thought that occasion would give me the opportunity of pointing out why the document referred to might, with advantage to the public service, be laid on the table of the House. Before I proceed, however, to make any such observations, I hope the House will permit me to make a short explanation which is, I think, rendered necessary by the somewhat abrupt contradiction which was given the other day by the right hon. Secretary for India (Sir Charles Wood) to a statement which I then made. I then asked whether there would be any objection to lay upon the table a communication stated to have been made on behalf of Her Majesty's Government, giving advice to the Courts of Germany as to the course they should pursue with reference to the war now raging in Italy. I referred to this communication as one which I might fairly impute to the Government upon the authority of the right hon. Secretary of State for India; but that right hon. Gentleman with, I think, more vivacity than courtesy, at once exclaimed "I never said anything of the kind." Now of course, I am bound to accept the disclaimer of the right hon. Gentleman; but I deem it due to myself that I should state the grounds upon which, as I think fairly and justly, I was led to attribute that statement to the right hon. Gentleman. On referring to the report in The Times newspaper of the right hon. Gentleman's speech to his constituents at Halifax, I find these words attributed to him: — We have seen recent accounts that in a largo portion of Germany a strong spirit prevails by which they seemed disposed almost to engage in hostilities. I hope and trust that their own good sense, aided by the advice which we have given them since we came to power, will induce them to abstain from hostilities. The right hon. Gentleman further said:— I believe that in the endeavour to keep Germany out of the war we shall be consulting the best interests of the country. Now I find that report is identical with the report that appeared in the Daily News, the Morning Herald, the Morning Chronicle, and other morning newspapers of the following day. Even if this were all I should be entitled to attribute to the right hon. Gentleman the announcement that advice had been given by Her Majesty's Government as to the course which should be pursued by the German powers with regard to the war in Italy. I find however that the right hon. Gentleman's speech has apparently led not only me, but others into error, for that speech was thus commented upon in the leading article of The Times. We learn from Sir Charles Wood that our Foreign Minister has not been idle, and Prussia has been subjected to the same admonitions, expostulations, and warnings which so signally failed of their effect when addressed by Lord Malmesbury to France, Austria, and Sardinia. As far as I was concerned the case does not even rest here; for the speech of the right hon. Gentleman had attracted the notice of my noble Friend, the Earl of Malmesbury, and he thought it his duty to make sonic observations with reference to it in "another place," where he expressed his fear lest this officious giving of advice should be found to prejudice our position of neutrality, and might therefore impose unnecessary responsibility upon the Government of this country. I find that, Sir, in answer to the observations of my noble Friend, one of the colleagues of the right hon. Gentleman, the Duke of Newcastle, said that, although he had not been able to read the report of the right hon. Baronet's speech, he had no doubt of the accuracy of that report, and he further said that the despatch alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman would not bear the construction to which the Earl of Malmesbury seemed to apprehend it was open. Now, Sir, when I found an identical report in all the morning Newspapers attributing to the right hon. Gentleman a statement that the present Government had given advice to the Powers of Germany with reference to the course to be pursued with regard to the war in Italy—when I found that that language was understood in the same sense by public writers, and that a noble Duke—the colleague of the right hon. Gentleman expressly stated that the language held by the right hon. Gentleman referred to a despatch of which that noble Duke was cognizant, I think I was perfectly entitled to attribute that statement to the right hon. Gentleman; and while I entirely accept his disclaimer I cannot but think he must have been somewhat precipitate in stating so decidedly that he not only had not said what I attributed to him, but that he never said anything of the kind. Now with reference to the question I wish to put to the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, I beg to assure him that my experience of the department over which he presides is far too recent to permit me to press him to produce any papers which he may think it desirable for the public interest to withhold; but I must say, at the same time, that I think the paper to which I refer does not come within that category, I do not ask for the production of any correspondence, or for anything having reference to pending negotiations, but we have had a circular from the Government of Russia expressing their views with regard to the present position of Germany — we have had a circular addressed to the various French Ministers at foreign Courts by M. Walewski,—and I think this country and Parliament should be in possession of the most authentic records of the opinions of our own Government upon the same subject. I think it is only desirable that we should be in possession of the views of Her Majesty's Government upon this subject, but that it is also very necessary that this House should know the language in which these views have been expressed. It may be that that language is judicious; it may be that it is conciliatory; it may be that it is all this House could desire; but, on the other hand, it may be such as is calculated to irritate and to wound the susceptibilities of those to whom it is addressed. However commendable may be the intention of a statesman in writing a despatch, it is not always that a public man is successful in attaining the object he has in view. A very remarkable instance of this occurs to my mind, because, on a former occasion, when the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) held the seals of the Foreign Office, he addressed a very important despatch to the Court of Russia. The laudable object of that despatch no one doubted; but, addressed as it was to that Court at the very time when those confidential and secret communications with Sir Hamilton Seymour were going on, it has been characterized in this House, and by public men in the country, as having clone more than anything else, notwithstanding its laudable intention, to provoke an outbreak of hostilities, and encourage the Emperor of Russia in the pursuit of those designs and the adoption of those measures which afterwards rendered a war between Russia and this country inevitable. It is therefore desirable that we should know not only what the policy of the Government is, but what arc the exact terms and phrases in which they have conveyed that policy to foreign Governments. If, under present circumstances, and especially after the news which has just been received, the noble Lord thinks it better that the despatch should not now be produced, I will say nothing further. But I shall now conclude with asking whether there is any objection to lay on the table the despatch alluded to by the right hon. Member for Halifax on the occasion to which I have referred?

SIR CHARLES WOOD

(who was indistinctly heard), — Sir, I may be permitted, before the noble Lord rises, to offer a few words in explanation of what I did say at Halifax, and of why I made the answer that I did yesterday to which the hon. Gentleman has adverted. I understood the hon. Member yesterday to ask for the production of a despatch which I had stated had been addressed to the different Courts of Germany, urging on them an adherence to a course of firm neutrality in the present war; and in reference to that assertion, speaking perhaps with a little warmth, I remarked that I had said nothing of that kind. What occurred at Halifax was this: —Many persons there were very much interested in the trade of the Continent, and, apprehending that their business would be entirely stopped by the war, they expressed great alarm at a report which they had heard that Prussia was on the point of taking an active part in the struggle. On the other hand a large number of people were also apprehensive lest the preparations going on in this country should render the maintenance of our neutrality much more difficult. To quiet these alarms I told them the first place that the present Government were not more likely than the last to abandon the policy of neutrality, and I assured them that the naval and military preparations which had been for some time in progress were not intended, as I believed, by the late Government, and certainly not intended by the present Government, in any way as a departure front that policy. But I added, that events might happen elsewhere, for example in Germany, by which, if the war extended, this country might possibly become involved; and that out of consideration for our own interests, and even for our own obligations, we might be called upon to interfere. I further said, I hoped and trusted that this would not be the case—that the statement that Prussia was on the point of taking an active part in the war was unfounded — that that was a course which I thought a regard for her own interests should induce Prussia not to pursue, and that we had also given our advice to that effect. Not that we had advised Germany that she ought to remain neutral. That would, perhaps, have been going further than we had a right to do; but that, looking to the interest which this country felt in the question, she was justified in urging Prussia not to take an immediate and active part in the war now raging in Italy.

MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALD

I certainly never used in relation to this despatch the words which the right hon. Gentleman has described. I spoke of it merely as a communication on the part of Her Majesty's Government giving advice to Prussia as to the course to be pursued with reference to the war.