HC Deb 04 July 1859 vol 154 cc602-8
SIR MORTON PETO

said, he would then, pursuant to notice, ask leave to introduce a Bill to provide for the prevention of the noisome effluvia from the River Thames within the metropolis. He believed there was no opposition to his Motion, and he would therefore reserve his statement as to the details of his measure until the second reading. He wished, however, to observe that in bringing in his Bill he did not mean to reflect upon the Metropolitan Commissioners, but he felt that the House had a right to demand periodical returns of what was doing by them from time to time to remedy the effluvia from the river, which was not only noisome in itself but destructive to the health of the metropolis. He was sure that from the simple and practical nature of his Bill no body of men like the Metropolitan Commissioners, in the performance of duties for which the public should feel grateful, could for a moment object to its introduction.

MR. SOTHERON ESTCOURT

said, he did not rise for the purpose of objecting to the Bill, but to submit as this was a matter of general interest, that it would be very satisfactory to the House if the hon. Member would favour them with at least a sketch of what he proposed to accomplish by the measure. A very few words would satisfy his own curiosity; but for the sake of the House, he thought that an outline of its provisions ought to be given.

MR. SPEAKER

said, that the hon. Member had already spoken on the Bill, but the House could of course give him permission to make any additional observations.

SIR MORTON PETO

said, he was quite ready to state that the Bill required the Metropolitan Board of works, and the various district boards, to make a monthly return of all they had done or were doing in regard to their sewage operations, and in placing the River Thames as much as possible in a proper condition. It might be said that those returns could be made without any compulsory enactment; but he felt that the matter was so important, and that the sanitary condition of the metropolis was so largely affected by the state of the river, particularly during the period of the carrying out the larger works, that they would not he acting properly towards their constituents if they did not insist upon the obligation of the Commissioners to make their returns monthly. He did not mean to insist upon the Commissioners adopting any particular mode in their course of action; but it rendered the continuous deodorization of the contents of the sewers imperative. His Bill would not at all fetter the Metropolitan Commissioners in the measures which they might adopt— the responsibility would of course be left with them; but he wanted it to be shown that they were doing, as there was reason to believe, everything in their power to remedy the evil which was so greatly complained of. He had introduced a clause into the Bill giving them increased powers of taxation in case those which they already possessed were not sufficient with a view of enabling them to carry out any works that they might decide upon; and, of course, if their powers were sufficient, this clause would be inoperative. In the event of its proving that the state of the Thames did not require those measures to be carried out, he had also provided that, on communication with the Home Secretary, the powers with which they had been invested should be dispensed with. These were the main features of the Bill; and he repeated that in introducing it he had no desire to interfere with the Metropolitan Commissioners, or in any way to impute to them a dereliction of duty.

LORD JOHN MANNERS

said, after hearing the statement of the hon. Gentleman who had introduced the measure, it had occurred to him that the title which he had applied to it was rather a misnomer. It did not appear to be, as it professedly was, "a Bill to provide for the prevention of noisome effluvia from the river Thames," hut a Bill to ask the Metropolitan Board for returns which nobody would ever look at. He would not offer any opposition to the introduction of the Bill, but he wished to enter a caveat against the supposition that he acquiesced in the system of legislation which the hon. Gentleman appeared to contemplate.

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

said, the returns which his hon. Friend was anxious to obtain from the Metropolitan Board would doubtless be of a very expensive character, and he trusted that if the House agreed to the Bill they would also be induced to pay for these returns; for, as they were aware all the cost of their preparation, as well as of everything relating to the purifying of the Thames, would otherwise be thrown on the inhabitants of the metropolis. Then, as regarded the power of rating, he believed his hon. Friend would find in the Metropolitan Local Management Act that ample power was given to the Commissioners. Any legislation on that subject, therefore, was quite unnecessary. He must protest, however, against the last observation which the hon. Baronet had made, to the effect that if the Metropolitan Board were doing anything which Parliament did not think right, or if they had done too much, that the Home Secretary was to have the power of stopping their proceedings. The object of the Metropolitan Local Management Act was to carry out the principle of local self-government, and they were bound to give, the Metropolitan Board time to see whether that principle had been fairly carried out by them. He must, therefore, protest against the Government having anything to do with measures which were paid for by the inhabitants of the metropolis.

MR. TITE

said, he wished his hon. Friend in his Bill had been fortunate enough to suggest some remedy for the gigantic evil against which the Board of Works had to contend. He would not discuss the provisions of the Bill, because, by a measure which the House had been good enough to pass last year, the Board had received the fullest powers of raising money, and therefore that portion of the Bill which referred to this subject was quite unnecessary. But the subject to which he desired to call the attention of the House was the steps that had to be resorted to pending the interval that must elapse before the improved sewerage system would come into operation. Last year no less than £5,000 had been spent in remedial measures, and this year they had spared no efforts to diminish the mischief arising from the state of the Thames, but which could only be cured by the great system of intercepting sewers which they were endeavouring to carry out. With regard to the contracts and the purchase of land for those sewers, he believed so much progress had been made that he might promise the House that a great deal of the evil would be remedied in the course of three years instead of five. One large sewer contract made in February of the present year was one-fifth completed. That was the high level sewer on the City side; and on the Surrey side of the river another very large sewer was just about being contracted for. The first sewer would no doubt be finished by next June; it was in the quarter known as the Hackney Brook district, which was the source of enormous offence, and which would by this means be altogether removed. In his opinion the entire project was being carried out as successfully as it could possibly be by a set of business men. With regard, however, to the evil in its present shape, it was impossible successfully to encounter it. Some idea of its magnitude might he formed from the fact that apart from flood water 80,000,000 gallons of sewage water were poured into the Thames every day, containing 600 tons of mud or 200 tons of solid material. In hot weather this water was not only in a state of putrefaction itself, but was the source of putrefaction in the body into which it was poured. The Metropolitan Board had appointed two of the most eminent chemists in London Dr. Hoffman and Mr. Frankland to inform them of the best mode of deodorizing the sewage with regard to future operations. To meet the present evil they had appointed one of the most distinguished men in London, Dr. Miller, the chemist to the University of London, to report daily on the state of the river and the large sewers which emptied themselves into it. The Board had at the present moment thirty stations at which lime might be poured into the largest sewers; and they were doing all they could to deodorize their contents before they reached the river. In the present state of our knowledge he believed that deodorization by lime was all that could he attempted; but Dr. Miller was engaged in a series of experiments for the purpose of discovering whether other agents, more powerful though more expensive, might not be used for temporary purposes. However enormous the inconvenience might be, he was bound to state that no effectual remedy could be applied until the sewage system was completed; but he was endeavouring to show—though not in the least seeking to be the apologist of the Metropolitan Board — that they were doing all in their power to meet the difficulty by remedial measures. The House would recollect that the inconvenience did not manifest itself prominently before a much later period last year; but in May of this year the Board passed a resolution empowering Dr. Miller to make the experiments he had alluded to; and they had, in addition, proceeded vigorously with the operations which he had described. He was aware that an opinion to the contrary was prevalent, hut he maintained that the aggregate amount of inconvenience must have been sensibly diminished by the measures which they had adopted. He ventured to promise the House that no agent which could be suggested—and in Dr. Miller's report last week agents had been suggested—for deodorizing the sewers would fail to be employed by the Board, whatever might be the cost to the ratepayers, because though, as was stated by the hon. Baronet, the expense must fall upon them, there was no doubt that until the main sewers were completed the state of the atmosphere might get worse. He hoped the House would feel satisfied that the Board were doing all in their power; and with regard to the Bill, he would only say that any legislation at present must delay, embarrass, and, to a certain extent, confuse their operations by leading to the impression that they were not doing all that they possibly could. With regard to the monthly returns, he could simply state that, if his hon. Friend required it, the Home Secretary should have a Return every fortnight, detailing the work done now or at any future time. The Metropolitan Board were but too anxious that their fellow-citizens should know that at a moment of extreme difficulty they were doing all that they could to abate this enormous evil.

MR. ANGERSTEIN

said, he wished to ask a question in reference to a report which was current to the effect that this high level sewer was to discharge its contents into Deptford Creek. He was quite sure the House would not take a narrow view of the question of the health of the metropolis, and that they would be unwilling to expose a large portion of a metropolitan district to so serious an evil as that of discharging so large a quantity of sewage matter without deodorizing it, as he understood would of necessity be the ease with the high level sewer. The question which he would venture to put to the hon. Gentleman was whether it was the intention of the Board to carry out the high level sewer at once, or whether they would consider the outfall first, and begin in the way that would be most complete, and which would conduce most to the general health of the metropolis.

MR. M'CANN

said, there had been a great many statements as to the good which was to result from the use of lime in deodorizing the sewers. But on Saturday night the smell that proceeded from the place where lime was put down at Charing Cross for the purpose of deodorizing the sewers was most objectionable, and was worse, in fact, than anything he had before experienced in London. It continued during the whole night, and he could assure the House that it was exceedingly offensive in every room in Morley'a Hotel. He did everything he could to ascertain the reason, and somebody told him that the sewer into which the lime was put must have been left open.

MR. RIDLEY

said, that the best return which could be made to the House as to the state of the river was the stench which entered the Committee rooms. That morning, he, as well as his colleagues, were greatly inconvenienced by the noxious effluvia that came from the river on the rising of the tide. It was so disgusting that they were obliged to keep the windows closely shut, and some Gentlemen were compelled to leave the room in consequence. If it continued it must endanger the health of hon. Members as to his knowledge had been the case last year.

MR. CONINGHAM

said, he was of opinion that the expensive experiments upon deodorizing the river were almost worthless. No permanent benefit would, in his opinion, result from them; neither did he approve of the system of drainage, which was, in his opinion, founded upon a wrong principle.

MR. JOHN LOCKE

said, he was the only Member who last year objected to the measure proposed in a great hurry by Her Majesty's then Advisers for the purpose of handing over all responsibility connected with the river to the Board of Works, and he now asked what had since been done by the Metropolitan Board of Works. The Board diverted every stream of water that was not particularly offensive from the Thames, and carried it off to some place far away below London Bridge. By this means they reduced the stream of water, and the filth carried into the Thames by the sewers was left to stagnate much worse than before. He had not yet been able to discover the utility of this Metropolitan Board of Works.

MR. DARBY GRIFFITH

said, he had made inquiries as to the smell complained of by the hon. Member for Drogheda (Mr. M'Cann); and he found from the men employed in superintending the lime operations that it answered very well so long as it was kept at work; but on Saturday they left off pouring in the lime water. It appeared to him that no plan of main drainage would answer unless the river was also embanked, and the area of the water greatly compressed. It was found that the smell was worst when the tide began to disturb the mud banks; a circumstance which showed that the removal of those banks was even more required than new drains. At any rate the two processes ought to go on together, but it was not competent for the Board under their present powers to embank the Thames.

ALDERMAN CUBITT

said, the Board of Works had been proceeding with all possible despatch ever since they had received their new powers; but it must be remembered that those powers were not conferred upon them till late last Session, and that time was needed to prepare their plans. All that was now required was a little patience; for it was impossible that great works like these could he carried out in a few months. He hoped, however, that in three or four years the scheme would be completed, and that the noxious effluvia of which they had now to complain would be removed. He begged to state with reference to the high level sewer that it was never intended that it should empty itself into Deptford Creek. The Board had merely taken Deptford Creek as a point to which it should be constructed until proper machinery could be constructed to convey the sewage lower. As to the smell at Charing Cross on Sunday, that had arisen from the sewer having been accidentally left uncovered.

Question put, "That leave be given to bring in a Bill to provide for the prevention of noisome effluvia from the River Thames within the Metropolis," Motion negatived.