HC Deb 10 August 1859 vol 155 cc1298-301

Order for Committee read.

MR. H. B. SHERIDAN

said, he rose to move that Mr. Speaker do leave the chair, in order that the House might go into Committee on this Bill.

MR. KINNAIRD

said, he merely wished to observe that he had recently presented two petitions from Scotland against the provisions of this Bill.

House in Committee.

Clauses 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause 3.

In reply to Mr. RIDLEY,

MR. H. B. SHERIDAN

said, that in order that the provisions of the Bill might be effectually carried out, it was thought expedient to give borough justices large powers.

MR. MURRAY

objected to the inspectors of gasmeters, who had to decide questions between both vendors and purchasers, being nominated by the purchasers only— namely, by the town council. He therefore would propose an Amendment, the effect of which would be to insert words giving the nomination of these officers to the recorders in those boroughs which had separate sessions.

MR. H. B. SHERIDAN

said, he thought that the appointment ought to be left to the town council in every case, who were always the proper and best guardians of their own funds.

MR. DIGBY SEYMOUR

said, he thought the Amendment ought to be allowed. He was not aware that in Sunderland, of which town he was recorder, or anywhere else, any objection had been made to the exercise of this power by the recorder.

MR. TURNER

objected strongly to placing this appointment in the hands of recorders, as the power might very possibly lead to jobbery.

MR. DIGBY SEYMOUR

suggested that recorders of places which were counties as well as boroughs were not at present excluded by the existing language of the Act.

MR. SPOONER

observed that, in his opinion, the Amendment was a very good one, and as to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Manchester, he imagined there was no foundation for it, as recorders, generally speaking, possessed no local inte- rest. He thought there would be great ground for jobbery if the appointment were left to the town council.

MR. JOHN LOCKE

said, he could not agree with the remarks of the hon. Member for North Warwickshire. He thought the recorder was the very worst person who could be selected to make these appointments; because he could know nothing whatever of the merits of the inspectors except through the town council. He did not see why inspectors of gas should be appointed by different authorities than those who had the appointment of inspectors of weights and measures.

MR. HUMBERSTON

remarked, that considering the interests of the public, the Committee would do well to leave these appointments in the hands of the town councils.

MR. EDWIN JAMES

observed, that to say that a town council could not be trusted to appoint an inspector when they had so many other appointments in their hands seemed ridiculous. Speaking for himself as a recorder, he should be glad to be relieved of the responsibility; but the truth was, as had been stated, that the recorders had only a very transitory acquaintance with boroughs, and these appointments would often become the mere nomination of a clique.

MR. MURRAY

said, he thought it wrong upon principle that these appointments should be in the hands of a town council, when there was an officer of superior authority in the borough, who was perfectly independent.

MR. MALINS

said, he represented a town which had a town council, but not a recorder. He must therefore vote against his hon. Friend if he persevered in his Amendment. But he went further, and thought that no worse authority could be selected for these appointments than the recorders, who had little or no local knowledge.

Amendment negatived.

MR. HENLEY

said, that as the Committee had decided who were to be the appointers, he thought it was now right to decide who were to be the appointees. He would, therefore, move an Amendment which would have the effect of providing that a certain number of these inspectors should not be police constables.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 4,

Mr. RIDLEY moved to omit certain words, which gave a compulsory character to the clause.

MR. H. B. SHERIDAN

said, he must oppose the Amendment.

Amendment negatived.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 5,

MR. VINCENT SCULLY moved the omission of this and all the other clauses relating to Ireland which would have the effect of giving to grand juries in Ireland the power of taxing a whole county for the payment of inspectors for the benefit of a few boroughs only. This was inapplicable to counties in Ireland, where probably there were only one or two towns in a county which consumed gas. The appointment should be given to town councils or town commissioners.

MR. DEASY

said, he wished to express his concurrence in this objection, so far as Ireland was concerned.

MR. P. O'BRIEN

said, he would move that the Chairman report progress.

MR. H. B. SHERIDAN

said, he should have no objection to withdraw the clauses relating to Ireland, but he begged to say that these clauses were strictly copied from the Weights and Measures Act.

MR. CRAUFURD

suggested that, as there had not been time to communicate with constituencies in Scotland, the measure should be confined to England.

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

hoped that his hon. Friend the Member for Dudley would not allow the success of this Bill to be imperilled, as be believed it would be of such great advantage to England. There was no reason why it should not be of equal advantage to the gas consumers in Ireland. He proposed, therefore, that the clauses relating to Scotland and Ireland should be omitted for the present, and that his hon. Friend should bring up a clause relating to Scotland and Ireland on the Report.

MR. O'BRIEN

said, that on this understanding he begged to withdraw his Motion.

Motion by leave withdrawn.

Clause 5 and 6 withdrawn.

Clauses 7 to 19 inclusive were then agreed to.

Clause 20 (exempting Liverpool from the operation of the Bill).

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

said, he would move the omission of the clause,

MR. H. B. SHERIDAN

defended the charge, observing that the meters at Liverpool were perfect, and that the people of that town were entirely satisfied with them.

Clause negatived.

Remaining clauses, and the Preamble, were then agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported, with Amendments.