§ (12.) £150,000, on account, Clothing and Necessaries.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he wished to call attention to the expenditure incurred for the clothing of the Guards as compared with the regiments of the line. The annual cost of the clothing of the Horse Guards was £8 15s. 2d. per man, while the cost of cavalry of the line was £5 8s. per man. The annual cost of clothing for the Foot Guards was at the rate of £4 2s. 8d. per man, and for the line of £2 6s. 3d. per man. The cost of the Guards was, therefore, very nearly double that of regiments of the line, and although he wished to see the army properly clothed, he thought the Committee ought to know the reason of this difference.
GENERAL PEELsaid, that he was surprised that the hon. Gentleman should find matter for complaint, as there was no difference whatever in the clothing of the Guards for this as compared with previous years; but there had been a reduction of £5,000 under this head. He did not think much fault could be found with the cost of the clothing of the army when the line were supplied at only £2 6s. 6d. per man per annum. On the whole Vote there was a decrease this year of £289,460 as compared with 1858–9. A portion of this decrease was occasioned by the fact that they were enabled to dispense with the large store which was formerly necessary, and that the number of free kits now issued was much less than formerly. The only difference between the present and the old system was, that the clothing was supplied by the War Office instead of by the "clothing colonels." The same contractors were engaged, and the cloth was of very good quality.
GENERAL CODRINGTONremarked, that he had heard an hon. Gentleman, a member of the Contracts' Committee, say that the change to what was called the Weedon system had cost this country at least £100,000 a year, besides destroying the responsibility which used to prevail in regard to the clothing. But the system had again been changed; the War Office now made the contracts direct with the different firms, and the responsibility, in- 1516 stead of attaching as formerly to the "clothing colonels," devolved on those contractors, whose good name would, of course, suffer if any complaints were found necessary.
§ Vote agreed to; as were also the following Votes.
§ (13.) £12,000, on account, Rewards for Military Service.
§ (14.) £35,000, on account, Pay of General Officers.
§ (15.) £240,000, on account, Pay of Reduced or Retired Officers.
§ (16.) £90,000, on account, Pensions to Widows of Officers, &c.
§ (17.) £20,000, on account, Pensions and Allowances to Wounded Officers.
§ (18.) £13,000, on account, Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals.
§ (19.) £550,000, on account, Out Pensioners Chelsea Hospital, &c.
§ (20.) £60,000, on account, Superannuation and Retired Allowances.
§ (21.) £30,000, Buildings, &c., Rifled Ordnance Factory, Woolwich.
GENERAL PEELobserved, that a supplemental arrangement had been made to be met by this Vote of £30,000 for the establishment at Woolwich of a manufactory of Sir William Armstrong's guns under his immediate superintendence.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he wished to ask what had been done with regard to the large mortar invented and made by Mr. Mallet. He understood that there had been several trials of this weapon, that in the main it had succeeded, and that, though parts of the mortar had at different times given way, these defects had been on each occasion remedied. At the last experiment one of the stays which held together the segments of which the mortar was compounded, being more tightened than the other stays, and having therefore to bear the whole strain of the explosion, gave way, but another stay was ready, and that accident was no proof whatever of failure. Hitherto, he understood, the mortar had not been tried with a full charge calculated to produce the greatest range of flight, and as yet no experiment had been made, by burying one of the shells to the depth to which it would probably penetrate when falling loaded at the end of its flight, and then exploding it while so buried, in order to see what would be the extent of the crater which the explosion would produce. He thought it exceedingly important that the weapon should be tried to the utmost, and 1517 he wished to know, therefore, whether these trials had been made, and, if not, what reason existed for not carrying the experiments further, so as to ascertain the applicability of the mortar for warlike purposes.
GENERAL PEELsaid, he had had no notice of the question, and therefore he could not enter into so full an explanation as he could wish when speaking merely from memory; but as far as he recollected, an expense of nearly £13,000 had been already incurred in the trial of this mortar, and the last report of the Ordnance Committee was to the effect that they did not consider it advisable to continue these experiments. He did not say that the experiments should not be renewed, but at the present moment the Ordnance Committee did not think it advisable to incur any further expenditure in this way. He would, however, put himself in a position to be able to give the noble Lord a more circumstantial reply.
CAPTAIN VIVIANsaid, he wished to inquire whether the Government intended to persevere in their determination to send out twelve batteries of Artillery to India. The noble Lord the Secretary for India the other night had stated such to be their intention; but he had given no sufficient reasons for sending out so large a force at this period, when the rebellion was at an end, and there was no longer any enemy in the field. He thought that there would be a great risk incurred in the sending out twelve batteries of Artillery. He should wish to know whether the Government were or would be prepared, on some future occasion, to enter into a more detailed explanation upon this subject.
GENERAL PEELsaid, a requisition had been made by the Indian Government for twelve batteries of Artillery; but the noble Lord the Secretary for India and the Council for India, having duly considered the matter and the present state of our Eastern Empire, decided upon sending out only half the amount of the force required. It was deemed absolutely necessary to have a larger force of European Artillery than of Native. The proportions of the European and the local force were regulated by the report of the Indian Commission.
CAPTAIN VIVIANsaid, as he understood the requisition, it was for twelve batteries, without the guns — that they simply wanted the men in India. He believed that there were plenty of guns out in India as well as stores of all kinds.
§ COLONEL SYKESobserved, that when the requisition for those batteries had been made, the rebellion was raging in India, and that there was no prospect of its being immediately quelled. Now, however, that India lay prostrate at our feet, and that her financial embarrassments were so great, it was, he thought, highly inexpedient to encumber her with an additional force of 3,000 men, who would be obliged to go into cantonments, and would be insufficiently provided with barrack accommodation.
§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he believed that the cost of British Artillery in India was not greater than that of European artillery in India. He thought that the Government ought to take care that no unnecessary expenditure should be incurred under the present embarrassed state of the Indian treasury.
§ SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, he wished to know what was the date of the requisition which had been referred to. For his own part, he was of opinion that even one-half of the twelve batteries in question ought not to be sent out to India. Nobody who was acquainted with the subject could for one moment doubt the efficiency of the artillery employed by the East India Company, to the admirable quality of which both the late Lord Hardinge and Sir Charles Napier had borne testimony. He could not help thinking under those circumstances that there were strong objections to the discontinuance of the local artillery in India. [General PEEL: Nobody proposes to do that.] He was under the impression that it was proposed to discontinue the European Artillery now in India, and if he were right in that view he should beg the gallant General to bear in mind that any artillery force which might be sent out from England to supply its place must, for a time, be comparatively inefficient, owing to the non-acquaintance of the officers and men with the language and habits of the Natives. He might also observe that during the recent rebellion 400 pieces of cannon and about 1,000,000 stand of arms had been taken from the enemy, that 800 forts had been destroyed—so that the fact, in reality, was that the artillery in India was in excess of what was required. That being so, it would, bethought, be a most unwise proceeding at a moment when the aspect of Europe was so ominous to send out even the reduced number of thirty- 1519 six guns, as he understood was now proposed. For his own part, he strongly objected to the diminution of the artillery force in this country by even a single gun, and he should suggest the expediency of postponing compliance with the requisition of the Indian Government on the subject until the report of the Commissioners on Army Organization had been received and considered. If Her Majesty's Ministers were to act otherwise, and carry out their present intention, he must say that they would, in his opinion, commit a great blunder. Having said thus much on that point, he might he permitted to draw the attention of the Government to the circumstance that the policy of establishing, at a great expense, an iron foundry at Woolwich for the manufacture of large cannon was open to much doubt. There was a considerable number of similar establishments in the country which furnished excellent cannon of that description at a fair price, and, besides, there was a large number of those guns in store. The foundry to which he alluded was, therefore unnecessary, and he should suggest that instead of being maintained for its present purpose, at an expense of £150,000, it should be handed over to the use of Sir William Armstrong.
LORD STANLEYsaid, he thought some misapprehension prevailed as to the reason why it was in contemplation to send out the Artillery in question to India. As far as he could gather from the observations of the hon. and gallant General, he seemed to suppose that it was intended to send it out as a force in excess of that which had existed in that country before the mutiny. Such, however, was not the case. The fact was, that a large portion of the Native Artillery of Bengal had mutinied during the recent outbreak. A deficiency had therefore been created in that province in that particular arm of the service, and in August last Viscount Canning had written home a statement of his opinion as to what ought to be the amount of the Artillery force which should be maintained in India. Now, if there was one point in reference to which there was a greater concurrence of opinion among military authorities both at home and in India than another, that point was that the great bulk of the Artillery in that country should be European, and not Native. It was necessary in the judgment of the Governor General to fill up the void caused by the desertion of the Native Artillery of Bengal. There was no question that that would be filled up by Europeans, 1520 but there was a question whether it should be supplied by a local European Artillery or by a reinforcement of the Artillery of the line. So far from prejudging the Report of the Commission, the course which was pursued had been expressly intended to avoid prejudging the matter. There was already a certain amount of the Royal Artillery serving in India, and to increase the force to some extent was not at all introducing a new principle, and the only question was whether the addition should be local or Royal Artillery, or how much of each. Pending the Report of the Commission, it was determined in a manner to compromise the matter, and to supply the immediate, and at that time pressing demand of the Indian Government by sending out a nearly equal proportion of Artillery of the line. Since that time, however, the state of India had so improved beyond what could have been expected in August last, and the military condition of India was very satisfactory, while, he regretted to say, the financial condition was just the contrary. For both these reasons the Government had determined, although their decision had not yet been announced to the Indian Government, to reduce the number of Artillery to be sent out by one-half. With respect to the guns, he might observe that they were not to be sent out. The guns were in India, and would be handed over to the troops on arrival in that country.
§ SIR DE LACY EVANSasked the date of the requisition.
§ SIR ERSKINE PERRYsaid, he heard with regret from the noble Lord that he had not complied with the real requisition of the authorities in India which, as he understood, was only to recruit for the local European Artillery from this country; and that the Government were going to send out six batteries of the Royal Artillery to India. It was quite true that a large proportion of the Native force had mutinied; but we had still all the officers remaining true. The intention of the Government, if carried out, would entail a heavy charge upon India. Now, all military authorities concurred in saying that the Indian Artillery was the best in the world. We had this skilled Artillery in India at present, and also officers there who were men of twenty and twenty-five years' standing. The young officers who were going out to 1521 India were men, perhaps, of twenty-three to twenty-five years of age, whose presence there would have the effect of stopping all promotion. He trusted that before the close of the Session they would have the Report of General Hancock. All that was wanted in India were the troopers and gunners to complete the complement of the Indian Artillery.
LORD STANLEYobserved, that even if the twelve batteries originally intended had been sent out, the force of Artillery in India would still be below the usual amount before the rebellion.
§ COLONEL SYKESsaid, he would remind the noble Lord that the void caused in the Bengal army by the destruction of the Native Artillery had been already supplied. He hoped for the sake of the finances of India that the Government would not persevere in their intention.
§ SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, he wished that they had received some further explanation before the Vote was agreed to.
GENERAL PEELhoped that he should be able to lay upon the table of the House before its prorogation the report of the Commission upon the Organization of the Army in India. He thought it would not be right to prejudge the question by entering into details before they had seen the report. With respect to the hon. and gallant General's proposition to hand over Woolwich gun factory to Sir William Armstrong, he (General Peel) could not give his assent. So far from there being an excess of guns on hand he could assure the Committee that requisitions for 68-pounders from many of our most important garrisons still remained unfulfilled.
§ SIR DE LACY EVANSsaid, he thought the Government was practically prejudging the question by sending out Artillery before the report of the Commission had been presented. The requisition of the Governor General was made in August, when India was in the midst of a fearful struggle, and the Government were now going to comply with it to the extent of one-half when the war had completely ceased. He believed that even at present there were 133 pieces of the Royal Artillery in India besides the European guns. There were some persons who desired to get rid of the local force altogether, and the public could not help thinking the Government must have some other reasons for the course they were taking than those which they had stated.
GENERAL PEELobserved, that the hon. 1522 and gallant Member had no right to impute improper motives to the Government. Let the gallant General wait until he saw the report of the Commissioners before he accused the Government of acting in defiance of it.
§ MR. KINNAIRDsaid, he wished to know what was done with the officers of the late Bengal Native Artillery? Were those who were unemployed on full pay?
LORD STANLEYreplied, that he was not aware that there was at present any considerable number of unemployed officers. He apprehended that most of the officers referred to had found employment, some in the new levies and some in civil employ.
§ COLONEL FRENCHasked, whether it was intended to break up the fine artillery service of the late East India Company.
§ SIR ERSKINE PERRYsaid he must again appeal to the Government to suspend their order for the embarcation of the six batteries until the whole question had been considered and decided.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ House resumed.
§ Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.