HC Deb 31 May 1858 vol 150 cc1250-67

House in Committee; Mr. FITZROY in the Chair.

The first two Votes were agreed to.

  1. (1.) £36,639, Mint.
  2. (2.) £22,010, Inspectors of Factories, &c.
  3. (3.) Motion made and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £6,251, be granted to Her Majesty, to pay the Salaries of the Department of the Queen's and Lord Treasurer's Re- membrancer in the Exchequer, Scotland, of certain Officers in Scotland, and other Charges, formerly paid from the Hereditary Revenue, to the 31st day of March, 1859.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, there were several objectionable items in this Vote. There was a charge of £3,563, a larger sum than last year, for the Queen's Treasurer and Remembrancer in Scotland. Then there was £97 for Her Majesty's limner, £184 for Her Majesty's historiographer, and £16 13s. 4d. for the clockmaker. These offices ought to be abolished.

MR. WISE

said, he objected to the charges for horse racing, and he should therefore move that the Vote be reduced by £98 16s. 6d. for the Queen's plate, to be run for at Edinburgh.

MR. WILSON

said, he very much concurred in the remarks which had fallen from his hon. Friend. He had always felt the objection referred to, but there was this answer to it. These sums had been originally gifts presented by the Crown, and it thus became part of the settlement when the Queen came to the Throne that they should be paid out of the civil list. That was the case at least in England, and if the hon. Member looked at the heading of this Vote he would see that this was an analogous case in Scotland.

MR. BAXTER

said, he believed that the people of Scotland did not care for these sums; though they would like to see some of the public money expended in Scotland, they wished it to be expended in a rational manner.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

said, that the item was a charge handed over with the hereditary revenues of the Crown in Scotland at the commencement of the reign, and it would not be fair to do away with it now. He also would observe, that one of the plates was granted by sign-manual of George I., and the other by sign-manual of George III.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, that the Queen's Remembrances was an important officer, with active duties to perform, and it was quite a mistake to suppose that his office was a sinecure. As to racing plates, the question which arose upon this Vote, and which would equally apply to the rest, he himself was less disposed than almost any one, from individual tastes, to support horse-racing; but he had always been told, and he believed, that the ground on which such votes had been supported was that it was a national object to encourage the breed of horses [a laugh]. Hon. Gentlemen might smile; but there was no doubt that racing in this country had exercised a most important influence in improving the breed of horses, and that we had accomplished this in England under what he might term a voluntary system, whilst in foreign countries whatever improvement had been made was the result of giving encouragement out of the national resources. Upon the whole, he thought he might appeal to experience as showing that our system had been infinitely more successful than that which was pursued in foreign countries.

MR. BLACK

said, that if it were supposed by the House that this grant was regarded by the people of Edinburgh as a compliment or favour in any sense, they were very much mistaken. They would be equally mistaken if they imagined that its being taken away would be looked upon in the nature of a slight or injustice. He should support the Amendment.

MR. BLAND

remarked that it would not be fair to strike out this Vote unless the sums paid out of the Civil List for English plates were also discontinued.

MR. SLANEY

supported the Vote, on the ground that horse-racing afforded an innocent means of recreation to large classes of persons who had few other sources of amusement.

Motion made and Question put,— That the item of £98 16s. 6d. for the Queen's Plate, to be run for at Edinburgh, be omitted from the proposed Vote.

The Committee divided: Ayes 44; Noes 70: Majority 26.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(4.) Motion made and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £6,431, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the charge of Salaries for the Officers and Attendants of the Household of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, to the 31st day of March, 1859.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he was sorry that the Irish Members were not ashamed of this Vote. He believed that the people of Ireland had no sympathy with this establishment, and it was ridiculous that the Lord Lieutenant should have the same kind of officers as the Queen. The Lord Lieutenancy of Ireland cost altogether, he believed, nearly £50,000. What could he want with a steward of the household, a comptroller, four aides-de-camp, two "gentlemen-at-large," and officers of that sort?

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

said, he would advise the hon. Member, if he had any doubt with regard to the feeling which prevailed in Ireland upon the subject of retaining the establishment of the Lord Lieutenant, to visit that country and judge for himself. His noble Friend near him (Lord Naas) would, he was sure, be happy to see him, and put him in the way of acquiring all the information he wished respecting it. Moreover, the question of maintaining the Lord Lieutenancy had recently been discussed at considerable length, and a majority had determined in favour of continuing the office; and, considering the position which the Viceroy occupied, he believed that the officers referred to by the hon. Gentleman were necessary.

MR. BLACK

said, he did not understand what the Lord Lieutenant wanted with a gentleman of the bedchamber; if it had been a chambermaid, it would have been more intelligible.

MR. WISE

said, he objected to several items in the list of attendants on the Lord Lieutenant. There were four aides-de-camp; not military functionaries at all, but civil, and very civil and obliging they were; but he did not know what on earth they bad to do but to ride on horseback, to write invitations, and to carve at table. Then there was a steward, or comptroller, a chamberlain, a gentleman usher, eight gentlemen of the bedchamber, two gentlemen at large, and other functionaries, amounting altogether to £2,606 a year. He meant to object to this, and to the sum of £1,800 for the Queen's plates to be run for in Ireland; and, as a beginning, he would move to omit the Vote for the four aides-de-camp, amounting to £647.

Motion made and Question proposed,— That the item of £647 13s. 4d. for Four Aides-de-Camp to the Lord Lieutenant, be omitted from the proposed Vote.

MR. BAGWELL

said, the hon. Gentleman had better move to abolish the office of Lord Lieutenant altogether; for if the Lord Lieutenant was to be kept up, he must have some sort of state.

MR. BLACK

said, he should propose to allow these gentlemen half their salaries.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, it was an inconvenient thing to raise questions of principle on a mere incidental question of detail. The question raised by the hon. Gentleman really was, should they or should they not abolish the office of Lord Lieutenant. He was not himself in favour of retaining that office for a single day longer than it could be proved to be necessary; but while it was retained, the nobleman holding it ought not to be shorn of all reasonable and decent ceremony.

MR. WISE

said, he would withdraw his Amendment, and take the sense of the Committee upon another question—the maintenance of the two "gentlemen at large," whose salaries amounted to £257. What "gentlemen at large" meant in connection with the office of Lord Lieutenant he did not know, but that phrase was ordinarily applied to lunatics let loose.

Original Question again proposed.

Whereupon Motion made and Question put,— That the item of £257 17s. 4d. for Two Gentlemen-at-large, be omitted from, the proposed Vote.

The Committee divided: Ayes 42; Noes 88: Majority 46.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

(5.) Motion made and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £15,804, be granted to Her Majesty, to pay the Salaries and Expenses of the Offices of the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland in Dublin and London, to the 31st day of March, 1859.

MR. BAXTER

said, he thought the House ought to have some information as to what the duties of the Chief Secretary were, especially as one right hon. Gentleman, who had held the office, described it as a glorious sinecure, where the duties were very light and the salary very large. There were some very curious items in the Vote. For instance, there was an allowance of £425 for coal for the Chief Secretary, and £375 for the Under Secretary. Really these officers might have to perform their duties, not in Ireland, but in Spitzbergen. Then he found eighteen clerks, but he could not conceive that there was employment for all these gentlemen. He should move to reduce the salary of the Chief Secretary by £1,000, to reduce that of the Under Secretary by £400, and to disallow the items for fuel.

MR. WHITESIDE

said, if the hon. Gentleman would consider that Ireland was a kingdom larger than many continental kingdoms, he would see that its government could be no light or easy matter. Of course there were two ways of discharging a duty—one was by not doing it at all, the other was by looking into the whole work with his own eyes; and he was sure, if the hon. Gentleman should ever hold the office, and discharge the duties conscientiously, as he had no doubt he would, he would find that the post of examining the reports of the constabulary, and the correspondence with the magistracy on the state of crime and such questions, would occupy him from an early hour in the morning till late at night. He should oppose the Motion, for he was sure they would never get a person competent to discharge the duties if they reduced the salary.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he would remind the Committee that the right hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Horsman) had stated to his constituents that he was the best-paid officer under the Crown, and that the whole time occupied in the performance of his duties did not exceed two hours a day. He (Mr. Williams) thought the charge for fuel most extraordinary—it would purchase at least eight times more coal than the Secretaries could possibly use. At the present price the allowance would give the Chief Secretary 300 tons of coal a year, and the Under Secretary 218 tons.

MR. WISE

said, he begged to call attention to the Report of a Select Committee which sat in 1850, and which had recommended the salary of the Chief Secretary should be £3,000, which was exactly what the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Baxter) had now proposed.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, it had been his duty when formerly in office to take into consideration the recommendations of the Select Committee to which reference had been made in regard to the salary and allowances of the Chief Secretary for Ireland. With all respect for the decisions of a Committee of that House, he thought that several of its recommendations had been arrived at too much in deference to the prevalent feeling of the moment. The public service of this country was certainly undermanned, and the hasty adoption of the recommendation for reducing the Lords of the Treasury was much to be regretted. At the time that reduction was made stories were current, based on the old tradition of bygone days, that Lords of the Treasury were appointed only to make a House and cheer the Ministry, and that they exercised an undue influence on the deliberations of Parliament, The consequence of the reduction was that great difficulty was now experienced it transacting the business of the Treasury. With respect to the Chief Secretary for Ireland his salary stood, when last revised, at £5,500, with considerable allowances for maintaining the parks and gardens attached to his office; and the recommendation which the Government of the day made was, that the salary should be fixed at £4,000. That sum, it must be admitted, was not an excessive remuneration for the duties of such an office. Hon. Gentlemen opposite certainly had one high authority for the views they expressed on this point. A man of the intellectual calibre of the right hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Horsman), who had filled the office of Chief Secretary, might, from a laudable and natural feeling of ambition, depreciate its humble duties; but it was the business of the present Ministry, which was composed of men of a more plodding genius, to carry on the Government of the country as well as they could. And so far from the post of Chief Secretary for Ireland being a sinecure, it had been suggested to the present Government whether it would not be necessary to increase the strength of that establishment. The duties of the Chief Secretary for Ireland were identical with those of the Secretary of State for the Home Department in England. They were not, indeed, of the same magnitude, but bore the same relative proportion as Ireland did to the rest of the kingdom. Yet they were equally various with those discharged by the Home Secretary, and when the salary was fixed by the Government at £4000, it was felt at the time that that amount was rather under than over the mark. As to the sum of £425 allowed for fuel, it must be remembered that this item was not intended for the Chief Secretary's private establishment, but for the maintenance of the park and gardens attached to the official residence, in which the public were interested. It was to be hoped, therefore, that the Committee would not accede to the present Motion.

MR. BLAND

said, he wished that the right hon. Member for Stroud had explained to the Committee the grounds on which he based the statement he had made to his constituents. When at his late post that right hon. Gentleman had discharged its duties very efficiently, but he was frequently absent from Dublin, and during the elections he was sojourning in Scotland. The salary of the Chief Secretary had been I already cut down, and if any further reduction was to be made it ought to be prospective in its operation. At the same time the item for fuel was very extravagant.

MR. LEFROY

said, he thought that as long as the office of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland was continued the subsidiary establishments should be maintained on an adequate footing.

MR. BRISCOE

suggested that the salary of future Chief Secretaries should be fixed at £3,000 instead of £4,000.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

said, the Committee of 1847 recommended that the item of £3,000 for contingencies connected with the Chief Secretary's Office required more minute investigation. An inquiry had been instituted accordingly, and the item for contingencies had been subsequently reduced, and classed under distinct heads. The £425 for fuel was applied to the maintenance of gardens with extensive hothouses which belonged to the public. He believed there was no worse-paid officer under the Crown than that of the Chief Secretary for Ireland, which involved very I heavy expenditure, and so far from being a source of pecuniary profit to its holder, was generally the reverse. He hoped, therefore, the Committee would not assent to any reduction in the Vote.

MR. MACMAHON

regretted the absence of the right hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Horsman), who was formerly Chief Secretary for Ireland, but he felt it his duty to say that he thought that right hon. Gentleman was entirely above his office. When the right hon. Gentleman first held the office, he (Mr. MacMahon) wished to see him occasionally on public business, but it was very difficult to find him. He (Mr. MacMahon perhaps found him once at his office, but he did not think he found him twice. When he intended to put a question in the House, of which he wished to give the right hon. Gentleman notice, it was very difficult to find him there; and at last he (Mr. MacMahon) abandoned all attempts to give the right hon. Gentleman notice of any question he wished to put. He did not think the right hon. Gentleman really knew the duties of his office, or that he either understood Irish affairs, or wished to give himself any trouble to understand them. He (Mr. MacMahon) was not in favour of retaining the office of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, but lie thought that so long as they kept up that office there should be no cheese-paring with regard to the salaries of the chief officers of the Viceregal Court. He hoped, therefore, the hon. Gentleman would not press his Amendment.

MR. BAGWELL

said, he wished to say that he had not been so fortunate as the hon. and learned Member for Wexford (Mr. MacMahon), for he had called several times upon the right hon. Member for Stroud (Mr. Horsman) when he was Secretary for Ireland, and he never found him in his office.

MR. BAXTER

said, he believed there never was a more efficient Secretary for Ireland than the noble Lord opposite (Lord Naas), but the statements of the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not convinced I him that he ought to withdraw his Amendment. The Chief Secretary for Ireland received a salary double that of a Secretary to the Treasury, and he could not suppose that the duties in the one case were double those in the other.

SIR DENHAM NORREYS

said, he deemed it only fair to the right hon. Member for Stroud to say, that he did not think he was quite open to the blame that had been thrown upon him. The right hon. Gentleman's private residence was within a couple of hundred yards of the Irish office, and he (Sir D. Norreys) believed the right hon. Gentleman transacted a great deal of his official business at his own house. He could only say that whenever he did not find the right hon. Gentleman at the Irish office he was told he would be found at his own House. On going to the right hon. Gentleman's house whenever he had business to transact with him, he was able to find him immediately, or he always met with some person connected with the office, who at once showed him to a place of business. He (Sir D. Norreys) was, however, of opinion that the salary of the Chief Secretary ought to include all the charges of his official expenditure, and that demands ought not to be made in the Votes for the small items enumerated in this Estimate.

MR. BUTLER

said, he wished to call attention to an item of £41 for a resident housemaid in the Chief Secretary's office in Dublin.

MR. CHAIRMAN

informed the hon. Gentleman that he was out of order, as time item had not yet come under the consideration of the Committee.

MR. BUTLER

observed that, as the public business of Scotland was conducted very satisfactorily without the intervention of a Chief Secretary, he did not understand what necessity there could be for such an officer in the case of Ireland.

Motion made and Question put,— That the item of £4,425; for Salary to the Chief Secretary, be reduced by the sum of £1,000.

The Committee divided: Ayes 55; Noes 151: Majority 96.

Original Question again proposed.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he would take the sense of the House on the sum of £425, the amount put down for coals. That amount of money represented 600 tons of coals a year, or about a ton and three quarters a day. The Chief Secretary was allowed a most splendid mansion, rent and taxes free, and elegantly furnished at the public expense, and ought, therefore, out of his income of £4,000 a year to pay for his coals. It was said that with the office of the Chief Secretary there were connected hothouses and other establishments belonging to the public, but he should like to know what portion of the public got the pine apples.

Motion made and Question put, That the said item be reduced by the sum of of £425, being the allowance for fuel to the Chief Secretary.

The Committee divided: Ayes 68; Noes 148: Majority 80.

MR. SPOONER

said, he wished to ask for an explanation of the item of £500 for drawing Government Bills.

LORD NAAS

stated that the Committee appointed in 1852 to inquire into the Irish Office recommended that the gentleman who then held the situation of drawer of Bills for the Government should be allowed to retire, his services not being required any longer. About two years ago, however, it was found necessary to appoint another gentleman to the same office, and the item of £500 was the amount of his salary. The noble Lord added that he thought it might probably be desirable to make some alteration in the present arrangement.

MR. HORSMAN

said, that he was responsible for the appointment. Considerable saying had been effected by having the Bills of all the departments drawn by one person. The matter was fully discussed at the time, two years ago.

Vote agreed to, as was also the next Vote.

(6.) £7,119, Paymaster of Civil Services (Ireland).

(7.) £2,613, Inspectors of Lunatic Asylums (Ireland).

MR. BAGWELL

said, he wished, before this Vote was agreed to, to draw the attention of the Government to the case of Dr. White, lately one of the inspectors of lunatic asylums in Ireland. Dr. White was one of the most meritorious servants of the Crown in Ireland, and had been compelled to resign his appointment in consequence of a severe railway accident, which had disabled him, while proceeding on a visit of inspection to the Waterford Lunatic Asylum. He felt certain that the Committee would not consent to this public servant being pensioned upon the small allowance, £320 per annum, he believed, which had been allowed him, but would give him an allowance more commensurate with his merits and services.

MR. BERNAL OSBORNE

said, that that Dr. White, who was appointed by Lord St. Leonards, had for twenty, five years been a most efficient public servant. He had been inspector of lunatic asylums in Ireland for ten years, at a salary of £900 a year, with a guinea a day for travelling expenses. He went one day on duty by rail, and on the journey met with a terrible accident which gave him concussion of the spine, and laid him on his bed for life. The result of an action against the Company had been a verdict with £2,500 damages. But the whole allowance made to this gentleman, who was one of those rare gentlemen that had pleased both parties in Ireland, was £375 a year from the Treasury. He trusted that the Government would reconsider the subject, with a special view to the circumstances of the case. This gentleman of very small fortune, was now reduced to a sick room for life, and the cost of medical and other attendance was £200 a year.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

, who bore testimony to the value of Dr. White's public service, said that his case had been decided upon according to the ordinary rules, but as he thought it was attended by peculiar circumstances, he promised that it should be reconsidered.

MR. WHITESIDE

said, he had been counsel for this unfortunate gentleman and he could state that one of the grounds for mitigating the damages paid by the railway company was a belief that Dr. White would receive a handsome sum by way of pension from the Treasury.

MR. BAGWELL

said, he rose to make a personal explanation. The Right hon. Gentleman the Member for Stroud (Mr. Horsman) had just informed him that if he had been in the House when he stated that he was never to be found at his office——

MR. CHAIRMAN

intimated that the hon. Member was not in order in making such a statement. The Vote was already passed.

Vote agreed to.

MR. BAGWELL

said, he would move the adjournment of the House.

MR. CHAIRMAN

informed the hon. Member that he would not be in order in making his statement even upon a Motion to report progress.

(8.) Motion made and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £22,615, be granted to Her Majesty, to pay the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Public Works in Ireland, to the 31st day of March, 1859.

MR. BAGWELL moved that the Chairman should report progress and ask leave to sit again.

SIR GEORGE GREY

suggested that the hon. Member might make his proposed statement on the Report.

MR. BAGWELL

The right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Horsman) comes to me and says I stated what was not true.

MR. CHAIRMAN

Order, order. The hon. Member must feel that it is quite irregular to refer to a debate which took place at an earlier period of the evening upon another Vote. The question of reporting progress does not allow the hon. Gentleman to make such a statement as be proposes.

MR. HORSMAN

The hon. Gentleman has mistaken the tone in which I spoke to him. I made a private observation—["Order, order!"]

Motion made, and Question,— That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again," put, and negatived.

MR. MACMAHON

said, he would beg to ask the noble Lord the Secretary for Ireland whether he intended during the present or next Session to introduce any measure with regard to Irish fisheries.

LORD NAAS

said, a Bill was in preparation for consolidating these laws; but he could not hold out any hope of any change being made in them, for they already worked satisfactorily.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he was astonished to find out there were three Chairmen to this Board.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

explained, that they were three Commissioners, who acted also as Chairmen in the general valuation in Ireland.

Vote agreed to, as were also the following Votes:—

(9.) £35,768, Commissioners for Auditing Public Accounts.

(10.) £17,879, Copyhold, Inclosure, and Tithe Commission.

(11.) £12,330, Inclosure and Drainage Acts.

(12.) £38,800, General Registry Office.

MR. MONSELL

said, he wished to call the attention of the noble Lord the Chief Secretary for Ireland to the disgraceful fact that there was no registration of births, deaths, and marriages in Ireland, and to request him to devote his attention to this subject.

LORD NAAS

said, he was glad that attention had been called to this important subject, for he was sure that no greater boon could be conferred on Ireland than the establishment of some such system as that which was in operation in England. When he was last in office he considered this question, but he found that it was surrounded by peculiar difficulties, which made him hesitate to propose any scheme of registration for Ireland. Such a measure could not be worked without the cordial co-operation of the Roman Catholic population, but he could assure his right hon. Friend that any proposition emanating from that body would be most cheerfully and willingly received by the Government.

Vote agreed to, as were also the following:—

(13.) £3,310, General Register Office, Dublin.

(14.) £5,652, Registrar General of Births, &c., Edinburgh.

(15.) £14,355, National Debt Office.

(16.) £2,800, Public Works Loan Commission.

(17.) £1,770, West India Islands Relief Commission.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

objected to this Vote being continued year after year, when he believed there were hardly any duties to be performed.

MR. LABOUCHERE

said, it was necessary, under the Act, to appoint the Commission, and they had very necessary duties to discharge.

MR. WILSON

said, that the Commission had an important duty to perform in collecting a large outstanding debt due from the West Indies.

Vote agreed to.

(18.) Motion made and Question proposed, That a sum, not exceeding £9,820, be granted to Her Majesty, to pay the Contingent Expenses of the Office of the Commissioners in Lunacy in England, and the Salaries and Expenses of the Board of Lunacy in Scotland, to the 31st day of March, 1859.

MR. BAXTER

objected to the payment of £500 each to two Deputy Commissioners in Scotland. The feeling in Scotland was, that the services of these gentlemen might very well be dispensed with, and that a secretary and two clerks could easily discharge the duties. He moved that the Vote be reduced by £367 2s. 6d., being the salaries of the two Deputy Commissioners from November, 1858, to March, 1859.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, the Lunacy Act for Scotland gave the Secretary of State a discretion as to the appointment of these Deputy Commissioners, and he had abstained from appointing them till he had received from the Board an unanimous opinion that they were necessary. The appointment, however, was for a limited period only.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

said, these Deputy Commissioners would certainly not be continued longer than was necessary, and he hoped the hon. Member would not press his Amendment.

MR. E. ELLICE

, JUN., said, that the inquiry was proceeding most satisfactorily, but a great amount of work had arisen which had not been contemplated, and without the aid of the Deputy Commissioners the Commissioners would be very much embarrassed.

Motion made, and Question,— That the item of £1,367 2s. 6d. for Two Deputy Commissioners in Scotland, be reduced by the sum of £367 2s. 6d," put, and negatived.

Vote agreed to.

The following Votes were also agreed to:—

(19.) £1,223, Superintendent of County Roads, South Wales.

(20.) £2,103, Registrars of Friendly Societies.

(21.) £32,000, Foreign and other Secret Services.

(22.) £401,357, Printing, &c., Houses of Parliament.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, he wished to call attention to the enormous expense incurred in printing the Reports of Commissions. The Report of the Commission appointed to inquire into the Endowed Schools in Ireland had been printed in four volumes. No English or Scottish Member had applied for a copy of it, but copies of it had been circulated in Ireland. Now, the expense of printing that Report, exclusive of the sum paid for the shorthand writers' notes and other charges, amounted to £5,000, and the weight of paper used in the publication was thirty-four tons. He thought these facts showed the necessity of a close supervision in respect of the printing of the proceedings of Commissions.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

said, it was quite true that the return moved for by the hon. Member for Edinburgh showed that thirty-four tons of paper had been used in printing the Report in question, and that the expense of that printing was £5,000. The matter had been taken into consideration at the Treasury, and a first Minute, dated May 10, had been made. That dealt with the Report of the Commissioners of Inquiry. And, with a view to check the cost of printing, it was ordered that the copies of Reports to be printed should be limited to a number absolutely essential, and that when the time for printing the Report of a Commission of Inquiry arrived the head of the Commission should address a letter to the Treasury, stating the number of copies required to be printed, apart from those required for Parliamentary distribution and for sale as Parliamentary papers. The object of this was to prevent the evil complained of by the hon. Baronet—that of the heads of Commissions having the power to incur, without check, what expense they liked in the printing of any number of copies of their Reports. The Treasury had followed that up by another Minute with respect to the printing of Departmental Reports and Papers. With respect to them, it was ordered that no paper should be included in the copy sent to the Stationary Office to be printed until the attention of the Head of the Department had been called to it, and his written sanction for it being so included had been obtained. The next point was as to the number of copies for distribution to Members of Parliament and for sale. That was to be ascertained by inquiries to be addressed to the Head of the Stationary Office, to the Librarian of the House of Commons, and to the Clerk of the House of Lords. With respect to the number of copies printed for gratuitous distribution, the Treasury stated their opinion that there had been in many cases an excess in the number of copies printed for this purpose, and one that was at variance with sound principle. Some time ago it had been determined to reduce to the narrowest limits the number of copies of the Ordnance Maps and of the record publications. That had been done—these publications were now sold at a very low price—they were purchased by those who really valued them, and the consequence had been that the sale had been greatly increased. It was now ordered that the number of copies of Departmental Reports and Papers printed for gratuitous distribution should be limited to fifty, except under special circumstances, and with the sanction of the Heads of the Departments. Economy could only be attained by Heads of Commissions or of Departments of the Government acting on the principles laid down by the Treasury. These expenses had of late swollen to a considerable amount. He believed that many of the papers printed had never been used, but had accumulated in the stores, to be ultimately sold as waste paper. It was a monstrous waste of public money to print papers which could be of no possible advantage. And he trusted that the Treasury arrangements to which he had referred, and the principal credit of which was due to Sir Charles Trevelyan (the Assistant Secretary), would attain their object, which was to control the expenditure under this head as much as possible. He believed that if the Minutes were acted upon there would in a short time be a considerable diminution in the expense of printing.

MR. BLACK

believed that a saving of many thousands a year would be the consequence of the Minutes.

MR. CRAUFURD

said, he wished to know whether the £5,000 derived from the sale of waste paper arose from over printing?

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

said, that it was a result of the extravagant scale on which printing had taken place. He might mention one instance of the results which had already attended the Treasury Minutes. A short time ago, he had received a letter from a gentleman at Dublin who had something to do with the printing there, stating that he would draw the attention of the Lunacy Commissioners of Ireland to the necessity of diminishing the number of their Reports, printed for gratuitous distribution as much as possible. A meeting of the body in question was held on Thursday last, when the number of copies of their Reports, which had been already sanctioned at 2500, was reduced to 1000, and the saving of £150 was thus effected. He was quite sure that the Chairman of the Commissioners, Sir Thomas Redington, was as anxious for economy as any one. But this instance showed what a tendency there was to laxity in the publication and printing of Reports, unless the attention of the Heads of Commissions and Departments was pointedly called to the subject. It was necessary to establish rules which insured his attention being drawn, and his sanction given to the publication of documents and to the number of copies to be printed.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, that the regulations referred to by the Secretary to the Treasury appeared to be very judicious, and he hoped they would have the desired effect, The effect desired, however, would not be attained, unless a check was exercised upon the amount of matter printed, as well as upon the number of copies printed. Because, for instance, as in the case of the Report already referred to, the cost of printing would be very large even if only a few copies were struck off.

MR. MACARTNEY

said, they were indebted to the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Black) for having brought forward the subject.

SIR DENHAM NORREYS

complained that these Reports were not distributed, after application had been made by a Member, with other Parliamentary papers.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

explained, that hon. Members could always obtain, on application, a copy of papers not ordered for distribution. It was thought desirable to make a regulation that papers not ordered for distribution should be applied for in order that they might only be furnished to those who really required them, and by whom they would be valued. The object of that was to check the excessive distribution of papers.

MR. WILSON

said, that there was nothing the Treasury had found so difficult as to check the expense of printing Reports and Returns. This could not be effectually done unless there was in each Department some one responsible for the kind of matter printed; for the expense arose, not merely from the number of copies printed, but from the manner in which Reports were swollen by the insertion of unnecessary matter.

MR. WALPOLE

said, that one of the great sources of the expense of printing arose from the quantity of useless matter contained in the Reports of Commissions, Committees, and Departments. He thought it would be desirable that the Chairman of a Committee of that House, or of a Com- mission of inquiry, should make a distinct recommendation to that House, or to the Head of the Department to which the report was presented, as to what should be included in it. The Treasury Minute cast upon the Heads of Departments the responsibility both of seeing that no unnecessary matter was included in the Reports issued through their offices, and also that no more copies were printed than were required for circulation.

MR. LYGON

suggested whether the matter might not be stereotyped, by which means they would reduce the expense and maintain the supply.

Vote agreed to; as was also

(23.) £123,100, Postage of letters.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow.

House adjourned at half after Twelve o'clock.