§ MR. KIRKsaid, he rose to call the attention of the House to the Report of the Commissioners of Endowed Schools in Ireland, and to urge the necessity of prompt remedies being applied to the evils and abuses which that Report disclosed. He had been led to make this Motion through a circumstance which would be in the recollection of the House. The Report, in four volumes, was so large, that it was said it would be impossible for any hon. Member to read it; but the fact was that the whole pith was contained in a book of 280 pages, than which the library of the House did not contain a more important volume. On that book his Motion was founded. In that Report the Commissioners pointed out that there were many evils and abuses existing in regard to the endowed schools of Ireland, but this was not new. Complaints of the same kind had been made from the earliest periods. The public endowed schools of Ireland consisted of five classes. The first were the Diocesan Free Schools, described in the Commissioners' Report as having been established in the reign of Elizabeth, and at the present moment were amongst the best conducted schools in the country. There were also the Royal Free Schools of Ulster, endowed 625 by James I. in 1608. Another class of schools were those founded by Erasmus Smith, which were endowed by that gentleman, who was an alderman of London in the time of the Protectorate. These schools were some years afterwards handed over to the Government by charter, but the provisions of that charter had been evaded by expending the funds which were to have been employed in extending the means of educating the poor in the erection of new buildings, and presenting a library to the richly endowed Trinity College. A fourth class were what were called the Schools of the Incorporated Society, or Protestant Charter Schools; and a fifth class those which were established in 1792 by the Society for Discountenancing Vice. But all these bore a sectarian character; besides all these five large classes of schools, there were numerous private endowments. Complaints had been frequently made even from an early period after their establishment, that abuses had crept into the two first classes of these schools. And in 1723 the trustees of Erasmus Smith's schools, finding that they were not acting strictly in obedience to their charter, had obtained an Act of Parliament to sanction their departure from it. Since then they had founded 179 free English schools, which they had no right to do under that charter; and under these circumstances they were quite open to legislation. By the 7th of William III. (in 1695) it was enacted that no person of the Popish religion should publicly teach in schools, or instruct youths in learning in private houses or elsewhere within the realm. That remained the law of the land till the time of Howard the philanthropist, at whose instance it was repealed. Commissioners of inquiry in 1791 made a Report to the Irish House of Commons, in which they recommended that no distinction should be made between the scholars of different persuasions; but it was not until 1813 that that Report was acted upon. In that year that great and good man Sir Robert Peel, while Irish Secretary, established what was known as the Clare Street Board. A great many of the evils pointed out by the Report were then remedied, but as a body they were not in public estimation fit to manage the schools intrusted to them. By that time the House of Commons had become aware of the importance of the question; and in 1818 Lord Glenelg, being then Secretary for Ireland, a Parliamentary Grant was made. In 1824, there was a 626 Commission of Inquiry, which reported in 1828, and that report was referred to a Select Committee of the House. That Report laid the foundation of the establishment of the present system of national education in 1831 by Lord Stanley, now the Earl of Derby, which had rendered education in Ireland almost universal, though not of very prime order. In 1834, there was a Commission appointed to consider the working of the national system. In 1835, a Committee was appointed, of which Mr. Wyse was Chairman, which took evidence in 1835 and 1836, was reappointed in 1837, and reported in 1838; and it was mainly in consequence of that Report that the Queen's Colleges were afterwards established in Cork, Belfast, and Galway. He would give a brief summary of the endowments, which he would divide into four classes, all of which, however, had been grossly mismanaged. There were at the present moment 976 endowments in operation, the total value of the lands with which they were endowed being £68,570. a year. There were 296 endowments not in operation—the value of lands being £7,170 a year, and there were 29 contingent endowments—the contingencies which were to bring them into operation not having yet arisen; the value of these was £883 a year. Lastly, and worse than all, there were 170 lost endowments, the present value of the property with which these were endowed being £2,574 a year. The object of all the endowments, to afford free education to the poor, had been defeated for want of proper management. In the royal schools, with £9,000 a year, there were but 36 free scholars, and these had only been admitted since the agitation on the subject had arisen. In the Erasmus Smith schools, only £700 a year was expended in the fulfilment of the charter, although the total income was £8,000 a year; and in all the others the same disregard of the objects of the founder was observable. He believed the great evil was in the constitution of the boards of management, which generally consisted of church dignitaries, judges, and state officials, who had other and weighty duties to attend to. Numerous though the members of those boards were, it was with difficulty that a quorum could be got together at the periodical meetings for the transaction of the necessary business. Then, again, their accounts did not deserve that name, and in one case there was a ledger that had not been balanced for eleven years. 627 The great and important educational feature in Ireland at the present time was the national system, which carried the benefits and blessings of education into the most distant corners of the land, and was especially valuable to the working classes. He believed it was efficiently worked and admirably administered. He knew that the opinion prevailed in England and Scotland that the schools were of the character which was called "Godless," but that was not the fact. The truth was, that at particular hours of the day secular instruction went forward; but after that had been given a board was put up with the words "Religious Instruction," and then any child that objected had leave to walk away. None were compelled to receive religious instruction, but it was offered to all. That was the kind of school suited to such a country as Ireland, where the majority of the people were Roman Catholics, who looked with extreme jealousy upon any attempt at religious conversion. With regard to the Church Education Schools, he did not believe that, they were exercising any influence in the way of conversion, though their friends were very sanguine of that result. It was said that there were 13,500 Roman Catholic children attending these schools, and he had no doubt of the fact. Indeed, his only wonder was that the number was not considerably larger. But the Church Education Society, in their returns, gave no account of what these 13,500 children were learning. The extent of the teaching they received was the alphabet and the first rudiments of reading. The moment the child was capable of anything beyond, the priest exercised his influence, and the child was taken from the school and taught the Roman Catholic catechism. He mentioned this to show how inefficient, as a means for general education, the much-praised Church Education Society's schools were. He would just say, before he left this part of the subject, that if it was the intention of the Government to give separate grants to the Church Education Society, how could they resist giving separate grants to the Roman Catholics? If you gave clergymen of the Established Church grants to enable them to teach their doctrines, how could you refuse the Roman Catholic clergy similar grants for teaching theirs? If that, however, was done, instead of the children in the schools continuing to go on together, they would split up into parties, and the utmost discord would prevail. He 628 trusted that on this subject the Government would be firm and maintain the national system of education in all its integrity. But there was a circumstance which arose out of the establishment of the national school system on which he wished to observe, more especially as it was not looked for by the founders of that system. Prior to 1832, when the national school system was established, there was in every town in Ireland a schoolmaster, who taught not only the ordinary rudiments of education, but something of science and a good deal of classics. When the national schools came into operation, they put an end to this scientific and classic teaching. In fact, the national schools had run the old schoolmaster off the road just as the railway had run off the old stage coach. In order to remedy this defect, he thought that the endowed schools, if their funds were properly managed, should be made to form the foundation of a system of education for the middle classes, a system of schools which should stand between the National Schools and the Queen's Colleges. It was most important to the progress of society that there should be afforded to the sons of farmers, and tradesmen, and the middle classes, that education which the state of society required. Science and chemistry were useful in the pursuits of agriculture and manufactures. Those acquirements were to be obtained at the Queen's Colleges, but a lad of the middle class educated in these colleges was seldom well fitted to enter on the duties of agriculture and manufactures peculiar to his class in life. He then read letters from persons in the north of Ireland urging the establishment of a system of intermediate education such as he had alluded to. The necessity for remodelling the endowed schools was felt through the whole of the north of Ireland, and he believed that the time for movement on the part of the Government had arrived. He would probably be asked if he was prepared to point out a remedy. He thought the remedy was easy. He would appoint a Board in Dublin which should fairly represent all classes in Ireland. He would give that Board, by Act of Parliament, the sole management of the endowments. He would vest the appointment of its members in the Crown, and, with great diffidence, he would suggest there should be no ex officio members upon it. He would give them power to do away with the boarders on the one hand, 629 and the free scholars on the other, in the endowed schools. With some such arrangement, and with attention to details, he had little or no doubt that the schools could be made self-supporting. When a locality wanted a school it should be required to subscribe a third of the expense before any grant was made. He would have the schools, land, and premises, conveyed to the Board, so that they could become the property of the State, and it would be impossible for them to lapse into the hands of individuals. Let the endowments which were given not be permanent, but varying during pleasure, and let the amount be regulated by the requirements of the town or locality, and let the Board fix the school fees to be paid, so as to make the school self-supporting. The middle classes had a strong claim on the Government for prompt action in the matter of endowed schools, and he hoped this matter would receive their attention.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed—
That in the opinion of this House prompt measures ought to be applied to the evils and abuses which are disclosed in the Report of the Commissioners of Endowed Schools in Ireland.
LORD NAASsaid, he did not think that the hon. Gentleman needed to have made any apology for having called attention to this important question. There was no question more worthy of the consideration of the House, and the result which might follow would be of great general benefit to Ireland, The position of intermediate education in Ireland, he agreed, was very unsatisfactory, and it was on that account that a Commission was appointed, so far back as 1854, by the late Government, to inquire into the subject. The Commission entered on their labours very soon after their appointment, and they had exhibited an energy and industry seldom exceeded. Their Report had been the subject of some animadversion and of some facetious remarks in the House and in the newspapers; but he believed that when it came to be examined it would be found to contain information most valuable and interesting. The Commission divided their Report into several heads, comprising the history of their own labours, the state of the Endowed Schools, and the manner in which they recommended that the State should deal with this important question. He admitted that the Report did disclose an extraordinary state of things in the schools. There was a great want of inspection, and of 630 trained masters; the endowments were often small, and insufficient for the purposes of the schools; and the rule under which the pupils were admitted to education. For this vague and ill-defined state of things there ought to be a speedy remedy. But while the Commissioners had succeeded in showing the evils which existed in the present system, and the great want of intermediate education in Ireland, he could not say that when they set about to suggest the remedy they were as successful in doing so. The Commission was, on the whole, fairly constituted. Three of the Commissioners represented opinions in favour of the mixed system of education in Ireland—namely, the Marquess of Kildare, Dr. Graves and Dr. Andrews. The fourth Commissioner, Mr. Stevens, represented the opinions entertained by a large majority of the Members of the Established Church in Ireland; and the fifth, Mr. Hughes, formerly Solicitor General for Ireland may be supposed to represent the opinions of the Roman Catholics. The result was that those three classes of opinion found in the Report three separate exponents, and the only agreement that existed was among the three members representing the National system of education. He wished to put before the House the great difficulty which, on account of this difference of opinion, beset this question. Any Government which approached the solution of the question must do so with apprehension, since, after these able men had given immense time and great labour and attention to the subject they had not found it possible to agree on the principle on which the remedy was to be founded. He would point out the leading features on which the Commissioners disagreed. The suggestion of the three members representing the National system—the majority—was, that it was possible to separate secular and religious education in intermediate schools so far as to enable scholars of different religious denominations to receive a common education without danger to their religion. On that principle the recommendation of the majority of the Commissioners was founded. They recommended that non-exclusive schools should be placed under a board nominated by the Government, on which the different religious persuasions should be represented; one of the Commissioners to have a salary, and to devote his whole time to the ditties of the Board. A definition was given of 631 the institutions they considered ought to be regarded as non-exclusive schools; and they further recommended that the exclusive schools should be transferred to the incorporated society, and be placed under its superintendence. In the outset Mr. Stevens, on the part of the Established Church, differed from the three Commissioners as to the definition of non-exclusive schools, and on the propriety of Royal and Diocesan schools within that category. He complained that the plan of the majority would have the effect of severing these schools from the churches to which they belonged, and of defeating the object of the founders. Now the Royal Diocesan schools formed the most important and largest portion of the schools affected by the Report. Mr. Stevens also proposed that a Minister for Education for Ireland should be created, and a Board formed, consisting of a Minister for Education and three other Commissioners—one of the Established Church, one a Roman Catholic, and one a Presbyterian; and he proposed to give the power of visitation of Church schools only to members of the Church. These two recommendations, it would be seen, differed from each other in the most essential manner. When, however, we come to Mr. Hughes, who represents the opinions of the Roman Catholic clergy and people of Ireland, the difference is still wider. He denounces the principle of mixed education altogether, and declares himself in favour of a separate and denominational system—under which alone he believes these schools would be successful. Now, having stated fairly to the House the points upon which the Commissioners differed, he thought it must be obvious that at the present period of the Session, and so soon after the Report of the Commission had been laid upon the table, it would be impossible for the Government to indicate the course in reference to the subject which they would be prepared to take. The difficulties by which the question was beset were very great, and it was only after mature consideration that a satisfactory solution of those difficulties could be arrived at. He could, however, assure the House that the subject would, during the recess, occupy the serious attention of the Government. He might state that the Lord-Lieutenant of Ireland had already given great attention to this subject; he was diligently applying his mind to the matter, and he (Lord Naas) was not without hope that in the 632 ensuing Session the Government would be able to submit a scheme on the subject to the House. It was to be regretted that the magnificent endowments which were in existence should have been left so long in their present position; and if any scheme could be devised to extend to the middle classes of Ireland cheap and useful education, it would be conferring one of the greatest possible boons on the country.
§ MR. GREERsaid, that while he did not think it would be fair to call upon the Government to legislate upon the subject under the notice of the House during the present Session, he was at the same time of opinion that they might have heard more of the outline of the plan of the Government than had been stated by the noble Lord, and whether it was founded on the principle laid down in the Report of the Commissioners. The Government must have made up their minds with regard to the principle which should pervade the measure they were about to introduce next year. They were indebted to the hon. Member for Newry (Mr. Kirk) for bringing forward this subject, as well as for having, four years ago, been the means of getting a Commission appointed, which had sifted the state of things connected with endowed schools in Ireland. He hoped that the Government would be able to establish a system of intermediate education, which would be as satisfactory to the middle classes as the national schools were to the lower, and the colleges to the upper classes. There might have been a difference of opinion among the Commissioners as to the system to be adopted, but they all agreed that there were great abuses in the present system, and that any system was better than that. If the Government meant to support a mixed system of education for the lower classes, he did not see how they could adopt any other in the intermediate schools. He hoped that in any scheme they adopted they would carry out the principle on which the system of national education was founded.
§ MR. GROGANsaid, he would willingly admit that the hon. Member for Newry had done good service in bringing the question forward, but in making that admission he must not be supposed as agreeing in all the suggestions and recommendations which the hon. Member had made. One good effect of bringing the question forward was the promise given by the noble Lord, that the Government would grapple with the question during the recess. There could not 633 be a more important question as regarded the social improvement of Ireland than the question of establishing a good system of intermediate education, and he believed that evening's discussion would have the happiest effect in leading thoughtful minds to reflect upon the best mode of supplying that want. These old endowments for instruction in the principles of the Established Church were apurtenances of that Church, and could not be justly applied to the support of any "mixed" system of education from which the Bible was expressly excluded. Every effort ought to be made to secure funds to those for whom they were intended, and he should protest at all times against grants by Government to schools from which the Bible was excluded. It had been shown that the Commissioners were not at all agreed on the subject, and yet the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Greer) seemed to expect that the noble Lord should be ready, in the middle of a busy Session, with a cut and dry plan on the subject of these schools. He should have regretted had the noble Lord taken such a course, for it would have shown that he hardly appreciated the difficulties of the question. With due management he believed that the funds of the endowments in question might easily be increased, and he thought that the question as to whether there ought to be a Minister of Education for Ireland was one well deserving of consideration.
§ MR. LEFROYsaid, that if the hon. Member for Newry had confined his remarks to the subject of the notice which he had placed on the paper, he should not have troubled the House with any observations on the subject. He had thought that the hon. Gentleman did not intend to do more than to call attention to the Endowed Schools mentioned in the Report. The Report would require the most careful consideration, and he was happy to learn from the noble Lord that it would receive the attention of the Government during the recess. The hon. Member had gone beyond that Report, and had attacked schools which did not come under the Report in any way. He could not understand why the hon. Gentleman had attacked the schools of the Church Education Society. These schools belonged to a purely voluntary Association which received no grant of public money. On the proper occasion he should be prepared to show that the management and teaching of these schools were calculated to do honour to all those who 634 supported them. He might, had he been prepared to meet the attack of the hon. Member, have read letters to the House to show that, if time had been allowed, thousands of signatures would have been affixed to petitions in support of the principle of the schools of the Church Education Society. He did not wish to see the National system in Ireland interfered with. On the contrary, he was for giving it full play; and with that view he desired to see it liberalized. What he and the other supporters of the Church Education Society wished for was, that funds should be granted to those schools in which the Bible was read, and not merely to those schools in which the Bible was not read. He did not wish to detain the House by reference to documents, but he hoped they would permit him to read two extracts, to corroborate what he had stated. One was from a Scotch gentleman, in no way connected with Ireland, who had been appointed by a missionary society in Glasgow to visit England and Ireland, in order to ascertain what was the best system of education. That gentleman reported that the model schools in Ireland were a complete failure, and that there was no religious instruction given in them at all. Then there was the Report upon the agricultural schools lately published, from which it appeared that the offices of the great majority of these schools consisted only of a school-house and piggery. These Reports showed how gross were the defects in the management of the National system in Ireland. He also would refer to an article in the Irish Quarterly Review on the subject of national education, in which the reviewer denied that there was such a thing as national education in Ireland—ridiculed the appearance of the National schoolmasters, and stated that almost all the schools were under the management of clergymen chiefly of the Roman Catholic Church, who had the religious teaching for the most part in their own hands. He had been obliged to state these facts; the terms of this Motion forced him to do so. He would only add that when he had heard the noble Lord the Member for London express himself in such decided terms in favour of religious education in England, he regretted that the noble Lord did not apply the same principles to Ireland. He regretted that the noble Lord set up a distinction between the two countries in the matter of religious teaching. The day, he trusted, would come when the noble Lord would change 635 his opinions. He (Mr. Lefroy) believed that both the present Government and that of the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton were in advance of the House on this subject, but felt reluctant to appeal to Parliament. He hoped, however, that the Government would adhere to their principles, and he trusted it would not be long before this House would cheer on a Minister who manfully avowed his conviction that the Bible was the best and soundest food for education both in England and Ireland.
§ MR. DOBBSsaid, he thought all Ireland was indebted to the hon. Member for Newry, but that part of Ireland which was most indebted to the hon. Member was the North; because hitherto education in the North of Ireland had been at a great disadvantage, and he was glad to find from the speech of the noble Lord the Chief Secretary, that he was fully aware of that fact, and that he intended to place the North of Ireland on a level, with respect to education, with the rest of the kingdom. The upper classes in Ireland had the universities, and the lower classes—the lowest of all—had, from the operation of the Church Society's schools, and the National Society's schools, ample means of education; but for the intermediate class, between these two, there was little or no provision. Now, it happened that in Ulster there was a larger manufacturing population than in any other province, the district was more flourishing, and from that cause there was a larger intermediate class of the population than in any other part of Ireland, and the want of the means of education was there felt the most. Former systems of education had proved insufficient to educate that class, but the Government had now promised to devote their attention to the subject, and the consequence, he hoped, would be that those persons would have the same benefits of education as were enjoyed by other classes.
§ MR. HASSARDsaid, he took exception to a statement of the hon. Member (Mr. Kirk) that the middle schools of Ireland were all destroyed, with the exception of Belfast, as he could instance the case of the school in Waterford, which town he represented and where he himself was educated, as a proof to the contrary. That school was not only most efficient, but boys of different denominations were educated there in perfect harmony.
§ MR. KIRK,in reply, said he did not mean to disparage the school of Waterford. 636 After the promise, slight as he felt it to be, made by the noble Lord the Chief Secretary for Ireland, he thought he should best consult the convenience of the House by withdrawing his Motion.
§ Motion by leave withdrawn.