HC Deb 28 June 1858 vol 151 cc578-86
COLONEL BOLDER

said, he rose to move— That an humble, Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire into the system upon which time Books and Stock have been respectively kept at Weedon, as well as the general mode in which the business of the establishment at Weedon has been conducted, the result of such mode of conducting the business, and the state of the Books and Stock of Stores. The system which had been pursued at Weedon during the last two years and a half had been disgraceful to the officers who had had the direction of it, and not very creditable to those in higher positions. The first error was the original appointment of the storekeeper. What did Sir T. Troubridge say upon that subject?

MR. T. G. BARING

said, be rose to order. The hon. and gallant Member was about to quote evidence which had not been reported to the House.

COLONEL BOLDERO

said, that Sir T. Troubridge was the inspector of clothing, and in his evidence he stated—

MR. SPEAKER

said, that it was not regular to quote evidence which bad not been reported to the House.

COLONEL BOLDERO

said, that to avoid this difficulty he would assume that a large public department was to be created, and that there were two candidates, of whom the person most intimately acquainted with the subject was asked his opinion. One of them was an old public servant of great experience and keen intelligence, a practical man, but one whose character was not good. The other was a man not perhaps quite so keen, but one who had nevertheless proved himself to be an excellent public servant. The head of the department was consulted, and asked which of those two men he would appoint. He said, he should prefer the man whose character was irreproachable, and that man was not selected. The other had been appointed, and from that hour had been left in uncontrolled charge of affairs at Weedon, conducting them as he thought fit, without the slightest inquiry having been instituted into the manner in which the duties of his office had been performed. Now, it was not a little curious that a public officer, whose character was tainted, should have been allowed to remain in that position for two years and a half, and yet that not a single person should have been sent down from London to see how matters were getting on in his department. At the end of that period, however, the authorities in London, deeming there was something wrong, inasmuch as the accounts had never been settled since the commencement of the establishment, had sent down a practical man to bring up the arrears of the books. As soon as that officer arrived he had asked for ten additional clerks. The request had been complied with, and he had worked at his task from October to March last. In the course of the latter month, an officer had for the first time been sent down from the War Office. That gentleman—Captain Marvin—was at the head of the statistical department, and the moment he arrived at Weedon he ordered a further addition of ten clerks to be made to the staff which he found al- ready employed there. Since that time, however, a Commissary General had been sent down, and eight assistant Commissaries, but, notwithstanding those facts, he believed the accounts for 1856–7 were not yet balanced. Now, he should like to read to the House some extracts from the printed evidence of Mr. Munro, one of the accountants who had been sent down. That gentleman stated in reference to the position of affairs at Weedon that it was impossible any number of clerks could ever render the Government a true and faithful account of the amount of goods which were received and issued at that establishment; that documents were missing, no day books kept, and that there was no cheek whatsoever upon the issue of goods. Within the last month, Captain Gordon, who had been storekeeper at Dublin, had been sent down to Weedon, and a remarkable fact was, that it was proposed that that gentleman, who was a first-rate public servant, should have only his former salary of £550 per annum, notwithstanding the duties to be discharged at Weedon were ten times more arduous than those to be performed in Dublin, while Mr. Elliot, who was to go to Dublin, was to retain his old salary of £850 a year. He might also observe, that during the progress of the inquiry all the witnesses who had come before the Committee attempted to mislead them and to turn their attention away from the subject which was to be inquired into. They appeared, indeed, to have been subjected to some system of coercion, but the moment Mr. Elliot had left Weedon their evidence had become more satisfactory and more important. In order to show the Committee how far matters had proceeded at that establishment, he might mention that the moment patterns were sealed at the Horse Guards they became standard patterns, and in many instances the standard patterns for the articles supplied to the soldiers had, notwithstanding the existence of a Royal Warrant forbidding any such proceeding, been changed, and the contractors had received payment for inferior articles, the poor soldiers having, as a consequence, been robbed. It also appeared, that during the years 1856–7, 800,000 pairs of boots had been received at Weedon, and that 170,000 pairs had been disposed of, but where they had gone to it was impossible to ascertain. A person named Levi, who had made a large fortune, and who was rather shy about coming forward to give evidence, had stated that he had bought 50,000 pairs, and that he had paid for them at an auction at the rate of only about 5s. 5d., notwithstanding that they had cost the Government from 8s. 6d. to 8s. 9d. per pair. Those boots bought at 5s. 5½d. had been resold to persons who were in the habit of contracting for the army, and one of the witnesses who had been examined had honestly stated that he had supplied five militia regiments with some of the boots thus cheaply purchased, and that the Government had paid for them at the rate of 12s. a pair. Now, he could not understand how any member of the Committee should stand up in his place and endeavour to preclude his laying the evidence which related to such transactions as clearly as possible before the House. For his own part, he wished to conceal nothing, and he thought every member of the Committee was bound to afford him his co-operation in bringing these matters to light. He should next advert to the evidence which had been laid before them with respect to soldiers' kits. It had been laid down as a rule that the soldier on joining his regiment should receive £5 in the shape of bounty,—£2 of which sum he was to get in hand, £3 being kept to provide his kit; the actual cost of which, however, was only £2 11s. 3d., the Government thus making a profit of 8s. 10d. on each kit. Now, a man named Isaacs was the person who was to supply these kits, and he (Colonel Boldero) had in his possession a Return which showed that a number of regiments had been compelled to return the kits which they received, in consequence of their being of inferior quality. The effect of such a system was to relax the discipline of regiments; for, if the soldier were supplied with bad articles, it was impossible to keep him in a state of due subordination. He now came to accoutrements, of which above 100,000 sets had been sold during the last two years. No fewer than 15,000 pouch-belts, made of buff leather, of admirable quality, had been sold for 10d. a piece, while the price paid for the accoutrements generally was 3s. 6d. a set. For 4d. a piece they might have been altered to the present fashion. He had already stated almost sufficient to show what the system at Weedon was, and would wind up by mentioning one simple fact, significant enough in its way. A short time before the storekeeper levanted he persuaded one of the public contractors to pay £500 into his banker's account. Hon. Gentlemen might call that bribery if they pleased; for his own part, he would refrain from giving it a name. One of the witnesses examined before the Committee—a contractor at the Tower—stated that for a considerable period he had great difficulty in getting his articles passed. A friend advised him to give money to the viewers, and for several weeks running he paid £2 a week to one man, and £1 to another. These persons, whose wages did not amount to more than 18s. a week, acknowledged having received £9 and £5 respectively. Here, then, was bribery proved from the highest official to the lowest, the sums varying from £500 to £5. Let it be remembered, too, that these men passed a vast deal of valuable property through their hands, approving or rejecting it as they liked. It was not right that such persons should be intrusted with so much power. A considerable change had already been effected at Weedon. Captain Gordon, immediately upon his appointment, substituted four men for one—one to receive goods, another to inspect them, a third to issue them, and a fourth to keep the rest in store—so that without an extensive combination nothing wrong could be done. He might state, in conclusion, that the Committee of which he was Chairman had been sitting for two years and a half. During that period they had encountered great difficulties, but they had finished their inquiries into two of the subjects referred to them, and with respect to a third—the system of clothing the army—their labours had been brought to a sudden but highly satisfactory close. Sir Benjamin Hawes waited on the Committee one morning and informed them that the right hon. and gallant Gentleman the Secretary for War had been looking into the system of clothing the army, and had come to the determination that Weedon should be abolished, as an establishment which had not worked economically for the public or advantageously to the soldier. That gratifying announcement relieved the Committee from the necessity of continuing their inquiries into the system of army clothing, but it did not prevent them from going on with the investigation in regard to Weedon, where they were convinced the state of things was most disgraceful. It was impossible, however, that they could get to the bottom of the matter, and what he proposed was that a Commission should be appointed, with a first-rate actuary, to make a thorough examination into the affairs of Weedon, and, if considered advisable, into those of other establishments also.

MR. GILPIN

seconded the Motion. With regard to an incident which had occurred during the speech of the hon. and gallant Colonel, to whom the House was much indebted for the attention, he had given to the subject, he wished to say that if the appointment of a Commission were to be opposed, he hoped it would not be by any of the officials of a former Government, under whose management, or rather mismanagement, the greater part of the misdeeds at Weedon were committed. Nothing, he thought, would be more disgraceful than an attempt to screen from the strictest and most searching investigation the charges which had been brought against the establishment at Weedon. An independent Commission, armed with full powers, could alone conduct such an inquiry as the importance of the case demanded, or do justice to those individuals who had taken a leading part in exposing the iniquities at Weedon, and who, as was believed, in consequence had been ignominiously discharged from their employment and turned adrift upon the world. He alluded especially to the case of Sergeant Brodie, which he hoped would receive, as it deserved, the closest investigation. The House could give no better proof of its appreciation of the principle of administrative reform than by assenting to the appointment of the proposed Committee.

Amendment proposed,— To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words, "an bumble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to appoint a Royal Commission, to inquire into the system upon which the Books and Stock have been respectively kept at Weedon, as well as the general mode in which the business of the establishment at Weedon has been conducted, the result of such mode of conducting the business, and the state of the Books and Stock of Stores," instead thereof.

GENERAL PEEL

said, it was not his intention to resist the appointment of this Commission. The grounds upon which he came to that conclusion were, that he was quite certain the Commission would do justice to many gentlemen whose conduct had been unjustly called in question. He believed that a great many of the statements which had been made respecting the individuals employed Weedon would be found, on further inquiry, not to be correct. Before his appointment to office his attention had been called through the press to the establishment at Weedon, and the first thing he did on coming into office was to inquire into the state of things there. The Report of Captain Marvin, which was printed on the 26th February, however, lulled his suspicions with regard to Mr. Elliot, whose conduct that officer had been called on to investigate. The hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Boldero) would do him the justice to acknowledge that he had attempted to throw no obstacle in the way of the Committee which had sat upon this subject. When a report came to him that the kits supplied to the men were not good enough for the £3 which was deducted from the men's pay on their account, he at once directed that the contract of Mr. Isaacs should be cancelled, and that the men should be supplied by the commanding officers with kits worth that sum. The clothing system also, which every one in the War Office, including Sir B. Hawes, admitted to be a bad one, bad been put an end to. He hoped and trusted that the Commission would tend to the advantage of the public service, as well as do justice to all concerned. He wished nobody to be screened, for he assured the House that the department to which he belonged were anxious that every circumstance should be investigated. But there were gentlemen very anxious to be heard in reply to the evidence which had been taken before the Committee. That inquiry, it should be remembered, had as yet been conducted on one side only, and he was sure there would be no indisposition at the proper time to hear evidence on the other side. For his own sake he desired further investigation, for nobody was so deeply interested in finding out the exact state of the case as he was. He himself had castled an inquiry to take place, the result of which he had laid before the Committee, so that it could not be said that the War Department did not desire to see justice done. It was right he should state that he had sent to other places of this kind, in order to inspect the accounts and look after the stores, and the reports he had received were most favourable. As to Weedon and the clothing departments, the great fault was not in the Ordnance regulations, but in their complete evasion. In conclusion, he would call upon the House to suspend its judgment as to the character of any gentleman who had not been examined before the Committee. There was no wish to avoid a full and fair inquiry, and he hoped that inquiry might be conducted in such a manner as to give satisfaction to everybody.

MR. T. G. BARING

said, he had heard with great gratification from the Secretary for War his assent to the Motion. He thought he was justified in the course he had taken in having attempted to prevent the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Boldero) from reading evidence which had not been reported, as no one but a member of the Committee could be acquainted with it. With regard to the conduct of the War Department in this matter, from the first moment they became aware of the irregularity at Weedon immediate steps were taken to put an end to it. Ineffectual efforts were made to get the books, and Captain Marvin made rather too favourable a report respecting Mr. Elliot. It occurred, therefore, to the War Department that an irregularity which had arisen was attributable to pressure of business rather than to any other cause. He must, however, say that the moment the attention of the authorities at the War Office was called to the irregularities, every step was taken to detect and expose them. For his part, he hoped the House would defer their judgment on this case as to the departments until the Commission had inquired into all the circumstances.

MR. JACKSON

thanked the War Minister for having conceded the inquiry. The most skilful catechist could not ascertain the whole facts necessary to be sifted unless the inquiry were conducted on the spot, and he hoped that the Commission would consist not of purely military men, but of accountants and men practically qualified for such an investigation. The question was entirely a mercantile one, and the Commission should number among its members men with mercantile minds.

MR. CONINGHAM

said, he thought that Sergeant Brodie had been hardly used. He had been removed from his situation, but demanded an investigation, which had been refused, and this person was fairly entitled to consideration and to justice. But inquiry could not stop short at Weedon. When they found so much corruption in this department it was a strong ground for pushing their inquiry into the whole system that prevailed at the Horse Guards. A searching investigation into all the public departments was absolutely necessary if they really wished to carry out retrenchment and to reform abuses. Circumstances had been disclosed respecting the distri- bution of patronage which demanded a complete explanation. ["Question!"] This was the question. Reform of the most searching kind was imperatively demanded into all the public departments, and he was not to be put down by such cries. The Horse Guards should be brought to book. He would conclude by expressing his acknowledgments to the gallant General opposite for the manner in which he had met the question.

MR. NICOLL

said, he could corroborate the gross injustice done to Sergeant Brodie, who had proved only too honest for a Government department. He hoped that competent persons would be appointed on the Commission, and in that case they would be able to expose as great a mass of corruption as ever existed.

Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and negatived.

Words added.

Main Question, as amended, put, and agreed to.

Resolved,— That an humble Address be presented to Her Majesty, praying that She will be graciously pleased to appoint a Royal Commission, to inquire into the system upon which the Books and Stock have been respectively kept at Weedon, as well as the general mode in which the business of the establishment at Weedon has been conducted, the result of such mode of conducting the business, and the state of the Books and Stock of Stores.

House adjourned at a quarter after One o'clock.