HC Deb 22 June 1858 vol 151 cc170-3

Order for Committee read.

House in Committee.

Clauses 1 to 8 were agreed to.

Clause 9 (Adoption by Towns of the powers conferred by the Bill).

SIR WALTER FARQUHAR

said, be rose to move, as an Amendment, in Clause 9, page 3, line 10, to leave out from the word "by" to "council," and insert, "and in all other places having a known and defined boundary, by a resolution of the owners and ratepayers." It was as difficult to get at the bottom of this Act as for a person who saw a Bradshaw for the first time to know at what time a train started. By the clause the Act was to be adopted by resolution of the town council, by the improvement commissioners, or by the ratepayers and owners. The object of the Amendment was to give the owners and ratepayers the authority of adopting the Act. The town councils were generally elected on political grounds, and he did not think they were the proper parties to decide on the adoption of the Act. The country would never settle down quietly under such a Bill as this.

MR. BAINES

said, this was an extremely important question. In his opinion, the Bill as it stood was right. In such large boroughs as that which he represented, it would be extremely inconvenient to have questions of this nature referred to the whole body of the population. The power was one which might be safely entrusted to a town council which was elected by a popular constituency; for their connection with their constituents was so intimate and so frequently recurring, that there could be little danger of their acting in direct opposition to the popular will. They had twenty-four years of experience of town councils, an institution which worked admirably, and such a question as this was quite within their jurisdiction. On principle and expediency, then, he wished to leave the clause as it stood.

MR. ADDERLEY

said, he thought the hon. Baronet had overlooked the question, if a town council was able to exercise the powers which it now had, it was able to exercise the powers under this Bill. The power about to be conferred was analogous to the provisions of existing Acts. The council must have a majority of two-thirds, with long notice, and with powers of appeal. He hoped the hon. Baronet would not press his Amendment to a division.

MR. PALK

said, he thought that the objection of centralization which had been taken to the public health Bills of former years was also applicable to this Bill.

MR. COWPER

said, that the Bills referred to had not been rejected on the ground of centralization, but from want of time to consider them properly. The principle of centralization had been often alluded to, but had never been fairly discussed. With regard to the Amendment, he considered it erroneous in principle and inexpedient.

MR. SLANEY

said, he hoped the hon. Baronet would not persevere with his Amendment, which would, if adopted, only end in defeat and delay,

SIR GEORGE PECHELL

observed, he had wished this Bill had been referred to a Select Committee. He believed all these public boards were a nuisance to the country—especially the Poor Law Board. The Bill would work well for lawyers.

MR. COWPER

said, he had no inordinate desire for Boards, but he thought his hon. and gallant Friend should not object to a thing merely on account of the name. Neither the Board of Health nor the Poor Law Board, to which his hon. and gallant Friend objected, were Boards in the sense to which his hon. and gallant Friend objected, for both had responsible Ministers in that House.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. BAINES

said, that the clause provided that notice should be given of the meeting referred to in it. He thought that notice should be given, not only of the meeting, but of the purpose for which it was called. He therefore moved the insertion of the words "and of the purpose thereof."

MR. ADDERLEY

said, that he did not object to the Amendment.

Clause, as amended, agreed to.

Clause 10,

MR. COWPER

said, that he would move, in page 3, line 41, to leave out the words, "one of Her Majesty's principal Secretaries of State," and insert the words, "the Committee of Her Majesty's Privy Council for Public Health," with the object of giving the latter authority the power to appoint persons to summon meetings of ratepayers in places where neither churchwardens, overseers, nor other local officers named in the Bill, were to be found. The attention of the Secretaries of State was in his opinion already sufficiently occupied with matters of primary importance, and the object should be to diminish rather than to increase their duties.

MR. ADDERLEY

said, he thought that the right hon. Member must have had in his mind, in making the proposition, the continuance of the General Board of Health. The object of the Bill was to abolish that Board, but it could not be abolished unless some Bill like the present was passed. There ought to be a distinction maintained between sanitary questions and questions of police. The present was a measure of police. Though sorry to do anything likely to impede the progress of the Bill, he must oppose the Amendment.

MR. WESTHEAD

said, that his constituents had a great horror of having to apply to the Privy Council, and would very much prefer to deal with the Secretary of State.

MR. SLANEY

remarked, that the best way to expedite the passing of the Bill was for hon. Members to make short speeches.

MR. BAINES

suggested that due notice should be given of the meetings of the town council and of the purpose thereof.

Amendment negatived.

In answer to Sir GEORGE PECHELL,

MR. ADDERLEY

said, that the Bill did not in any way alter the mode of voting provided for in the Bill of 1848.

Clause agreed to; as were also clauses up to 19 inclusive.

Clause 20 was put, and an Amendment moved by Mr. M'MAHON that only new corporate districts be included under the Bill.

Amendment negatived.

MR. PALK

said, he wished to propose an Amendment, the effect of which was to restrict the tenure of office of members of the Board to one year. He should, therefore, move as an Amendment, in page 10, clause 20, to leave out from line 5 to "election," in line 8, inclusive, and insert "Notwithstanding anything to the contrary in the Public Health Act, 1848, no person elected shall in any case continuously remain in office for more than one year; and on the days appointed for going out of office, a number of persons shall be elected equal to the number of those going out, and so many others as may be necessary to complete the full number of the local Board of Health in respect of which the election is to be made."

MR. ADDERLEY

said, he must oppose the Amendment. In proposing that a third of the number elected should go out annually, he had followed the precedent established by the Municipal Reform Act.

Amendment negatived. Clause agreed to; as were also the remaining Clauses up to Clause 30.

The House resumed.

Committee report progress; to sit again on Thursday,