§ Order for Committee read.
§ MR. SLANEYsaid, he did not rise to oppose the House going into Committee, but to express a hope that a provision would be introduced for the reservation of an open space in the vicinity of the Kensington Museum.
§ House in Committee.
§ Clause 1 (Lands purchased by Commissioners for the Exhibition of 1851 to be released on repayment of Parliamentary grants and moiety of rents).
§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he had no doubt that the agreement between the Commissioners and the Government which this Bill proposed to terminate was a very unwise one, and that the sooner it was put an end to and the money paid into the Exchequer the better. In order to prevent any delay in the matter, he would suggest that a specific day for the payment should be named in the Bill, and that 4 per cent interest should be charged from the passing of the Bill till the payment of the money.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the same reasons which had operated against the payment of interest during the last five years would apply to the interval between the passing of the Bill and the payment of the money. It would be almost impossible to specify an exact date for the payment, because the arrangements under which the Commissioners could raise the money depended upon the passing of the Bill. The best guarantee that the affair would be brought to a conclusion as speedily as possible was to be found in the fact that it was as much for the interest of the Commissioners as of the Government that it should be concluded.
§ MR. ALCOCKsaid, he could not but express his dissatisfaction at the different mode in which the Government proposed to treat two very similar and excellent schemes—Battersea Park and Chelsea Bridge on the one hand, and the measure contemplated by this Bill on the other. The Government had lent the sum of £280,000 for carrying out Chelsea Bridge and Battersea Park, and the Commissioners were informed that they must not only repay the capital sum, but 4 per 86 cent interest thereon, which amounted to no less than £70,000, making a total of £350,000. He was ready to show that the whole of that sum could be repaid by a sale of the surplus land, and, he contended, if that could be proved, that the Government were bound to throw open the bridge free to the public. On the other hand, the Exhibition Commissioners had £200,000 lent to them, and when there was to be an end of the arrangement between them and the Government, not a word was said about the payment of interest, or the improved value of the land. As he understood the Bill, from the £180,000 that the Commissioners were ready to pay to the Government, £60,000 was to be deducted in respect of twelve acres of land, which the Government might hereafter require for the purposes of art and science. He objected to that arrangement; £60,000 was too much for twelve acres; moreover, he did not think it was desirable to reserve any power as to the taking of land from the Commissioners, and hoped that the partnership with them would now terminate once and for ever. He thought that the Commissioners ought to undertake the care of Mr. Sheepshanks' Collection.
§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY moved the insertion of the words "in one year or sooner" after the word "payment."
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
MR. WILSONsaid, he thought those words were unnecessary, inasmuch as the Act would not take effect until the money was paid.
§ MR. GLADSTONEsaid, that the remark of the hon. Gentleman was quite true, but he still thought the Amendment worthy consideration. An interval of a year was a liberal period to give the Commissioners to complete the arrangements for the refunding of the money which they had borrowed.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the proposal of the hon. Baronet was an unusual one, and might be inconvenient. The Act could not come into play till the money was paid. The Commissioners were much more interested in terminating the partnership than the Government. They could not carry their arrangements into effect, in consequence of their connection with the Government.
§ MR. BLACKBURNsaid, he should support the Amendment, as he thought it most desirable that some time should be 87 fixed within which the Commissioners should repay the money to Government.
§ MR. SPOONERsaid, he had at all times opposed the partnership between the Government and the Commissioners, and he thought that if a time were not fixed, the repayment would be delayed for years to come.
Mr. EGERTONsaid, he was in favour of the dissolution of the partnership between the Government and the Commissioners, but he thought that if a time were fixed for paying the money intending purchasers of plots for building purposes would take an unfair advantage of the Commissioners.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the persons most interested in the termination of the arrangement were the Commissioners. The longer the money remained unpaid the greater interest would have to be paid to the Government. The Commissioners, as soon as the Bill passed, would make arrangements for payment of the money, and reasonable time ought to be given to them for completing those arrangements.
§ MR. SPOONERThen there could be no harm in inserting the Amendment.
§ MR. CONINGHAMsaid, that so far as he understood the Bill, the Commissioners were the only persons who were to be benefited by the increase in the value of the land, but with what advantage to the nation he was yet to learn. The present arrangement appeared to him of a confused character; the Sheepshanks and the Fine Arts Collections must be placed somewhere, and, he presumed, when the £60,000 was paid over it would become necessary to look for another site. He should look for some explanation upon these points when Clause 2 came under the notice of the Committee.
§ MR. BLACKBURNsaid, he wished to know what would be considered a "reasonable" time within which the Royal Commissioners would have to repay the money, and he should contend that some definite period for such repayments ought to be specified in the clause.
MR. WILSONremarked, that if any limit of time was inserted, the result would be, that if the money was not paid within the time, this Bill would be nullified and the old arrangement revived.
§ Question put, and negatived.
§ MR. ALCOCK moved the insertion after the words "twopence," of the words — "all sums of money which have been paid 88 by the Treasury on account of the Kensington Gore estate, or any disbursement connected therewith, together with a moiety of the rents received by the said Commissioners." It appeared to him that the Commissioners were fairly liable to all the changes included in that Amendment.
§ Question proposed, "That those words be there inserted."
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he thought all that the Government had a right to expect was the capital sum they had advanced, and a moiety of the rents which had been actually received.
§ Question put, and negatived.
§ MR. BLACKBURNsaid, he rose to move the insertion of the following words—"With interest at the rate of 5 per cent calculated from the passing of this Act." His object was to ensure to the Government a fair rate of interest upon the sum in question from the time of the passing of the Act until that sum should be repaid by the Commissioners.
§ Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 3, after the word "twopence," to insert the words "with interest at the rate of 5 per cent calculated from the passing of this Act."
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he could not adopt the Amendment. The partnership would not be put an end to until the money was repaid by the Commissioners, and in the meantime they ought not to be liable to the payment of interest.
MR. WILSONthought it would not be fair to ask for interest while there was no beneficial occupation.
§ Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 99; Noes 208: Majority 109.
§ MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, he wished to ask the Government whether they had considered the advantage that would be derived to the public service if they were to take power to receive a portion of this payment in land in lieu of money; because there was a very heavy expenditure which it would be necessary to incur very shortly for barracks. He could not see in what part of the neighbourhood of London land could be so cheaply and so well acquired as in this locality. The Portman Barracks were about to be given up; the lease had expired; they were now held only from year to year; and the state in which they stood was lately proved to be 89 positively dangerous to the inmates. It was also proposed, for the purpose of extending the National Gallery, to take the site which was now occupied by St. George's Barracks, Trafalgar Square. Barrack room would, therefore, be wanted for at least a battalion, or a battalion and a half; and if, as had been recommended, the men were not to be packed so closely together as they now were, provision would be required for two battalions. The site at Kensington no longer to be occupied by buildings for the accommodation of the different learned societies might perfectly well be made available for this great public purpose; and it was quite certain that the longer they delayed the purchase of land for the barracks which must be erected, the more they would have to pay, because the more day by day every plot of ground was being covered with valuable buildings. He did not intend now to make any proposition on this subject, but he thought it would be well if the Government would take the subject into consideration, as an arrangement might be made by which a large sum would be saved to the public.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, no doubt the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman related to a subject of great gravity; but it had not escaped the attention of the Government. The right hon. Gentleman appeared to misunderstand the nature of the arrangement which this Bill was proposed to sanction. At present it was not for them to consider whether or not it would be expedient for the country to have a plot of ground in this particular quarter, or whether they might avail themselves of their position in relation to this property, in order to secure it. The position in which they were placed was this. The Royal Commissioners not only desired, but were prepared to carry out the original plan of 1852, which would require, generally speaking, the whole of the purchase, and their proposition to the Government was this:—"Either join us in carrying into effect this plan, as you promised to do in 1852, or release us from the trammels of our connection with you, and allow us to carry it into effect from our own resources." This offer had been made in a fair spirit, and the Government did not think it would have been becoming in them to make a third proposition. They could not have said to the Commissioners, "Well, let us dissolve our connection, and we shall allow you to carry out your plans, but only in part, be- 90 cause we are desirous, or are under the necessity, of appropriating to the public use a portion of this land." The land had been originally obtained for a public purpose under the belief that the Government would co-operate in the object of the Commission; and the Government having been unable to fulfil its part of the engagement, the Commissioners now offered to allow it to draw out its capital, in order that they might themselves accomplish their original purpose.
§ MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, that as he understood it was not possible for the Commissioners to accomplish their original purpose, because the public had decided against the removal of the National Gallery which was part of the original plan; and, moreover, the learned Societies, though they had been offered sites on this land, would not go there. Therefore the greater portion of the scheme of 1852 fell to the ground, and could not be fulfilled with or without the assistance of the Government. Under these circumstances he thought it would be wise for the Government to secure a part of this land at a fair price, relieving the Commissioners from a corresponding payment into the Exchequer.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the original purpose was, not to have the National Gallery or the learned Societies there, but that there should be the means of giving a complete industrial education to the artisans of this country, and that the improvement of our manufactures should be sought through the medium of a scientific and artistic training for the operatives of England. It was the belief of the Royal Commission that they could so far accomplish their original design that, though, they might not have the National Gallery or all the learned bodies in this locality, they would yet have the means of contributing towards the desired result, by securing the presence of many of the societies devoted to learning and science.
§ MR. KINNAIRDobserved, that he had, on the second reading of the Bill, understood the Chancellor of the Exchequer to say that, is order to repay this large sum of money to the nation, the Commissioners would have to sell a portion of their estate. Why, then, should we not take land instead of money?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that it was not the intention of the Commissioners to sell any of the land. Some small outlying portions would 91 be let on building leases, as was originally contemplated in the scheme of 1852.
§ MR. BERESFORD HOPEsaid, the answer of the right hon. Gentleman opened a wide question, and he would beg leave to ask, what would be the use of the Department of Science and Art, if, as stated by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, these Royal Commissioners were to carry out the complete artistic and industrial education of our artisans? Was it intended that the professors of the two bodies should give antagonistic lectures on the same branches of art at two different industrial colleges at Brompton, whither the people would not go to be instructed?
MR. WILSONsaid, he believed that some security ought to be taken against an indefinite extension of the time at which the money would be repaid by the Commissioners; and with that conviction he should move the addition of the following words at the end of the clause:—
Provided always, that if such payment be not made within six months from the passing of this Act, there shall be added a sum equal to one-half of the net rental, which shall accrue from the time when such payment shall be made.
§ Question put, "That those words be there added."
§ MR. BLACKBURNsaid, that if they looked at this matter in the light of a building speculation, the lion. Member for Devonport (Mr. Wilson) had put the compensation to the public a great deal too low. He believed that it was the intention of some hon. Member, on the Report, to propose the addition to the Bill of a clause giving interest at a somewhat lower rate than he had himself proposed.
§ MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he begged to remind the Committee that this was not a building speculation, and it could not possibly, under the charter of the Commissioners, bear such a character. The object of the Commissioners was to apply the land to the promotion of art and science; and the Bill was introduced for the purpose of relieving them from an unfortunate partnership which prevented them from carrying that object into effect. But at the same time he felt it his duty to support the Amendment of his hon. Friend the Member for Devonport (Mr. Wilson), as he believed the Government would be fairly entitled to a moiety of the rents that might be received from the property in case any considerable delay should take place in the repayment of the £180,000.
§ MR. SPOONERsaid, that as the provi- 92 sion for the dissolution of partnership would not come into operation until this money was paid, the country would up to that time be entitled as a partner to one-half the rents, and therefore the proviso of the hon. Member for Devonport was unnecessary.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, it seemed to him that before the Bill passed the Commissioners ought to be prepared to state when they would repay the money; and in order to afford time for obtaining information upon that point, he would suggest that the further consideration of the Bill should be postponed for a month.
§ MR. AYRTONsaid, he understood that, instead of being applied to the purposes of art, the land was already being let on building leases. If the value of the estate had so greatly increased, as was stated, it was hardly fair that the country, which had found the greater portion of the purchase-money, should lose all advantage from that increase of value, and should at the same time have to wait for the repayment of its money.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the estate consisted principally of one large plot of land, containing more than eighty acres, which was originally and still intended to be the chief scene of the operations of the Commissioners, but they had been obliged to purchase several small pieces of land which were connected with that plot. The Exhibition Commissioners were permitted by their charter to let out these detached blocks, which had no value to them in effecting their own objects, on building leases; but the rents of these buildings must be applied to the same purpose as the estate generally—namely, the encouragement of science and art. That was the original plan contemplated in 1852. It was contemplated, of course, at the present moment; it had been carried partially into effect, and it was the only means by which the Commissioners could enable themselves to repay the proportion of the capital which the Treasury advanced to them.
§ Question put and agreed to.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ Clause 2.
§ MR. ALCOCKsaid, he moved the omission of the clause altogether. It was not a very reasonable thing that in dissolving a partnership the division should be so unequal as to give to the Commissioners all the value of the land, between £5,000 and £6,000. The clause would enable the 93 Government to retain in their hands twel acres of land covered with buildings, which it seemed to him would defeat the main object of the Bill.
§ Motion made, and question proposed, "That Clause 2 be omitted."
§ Mr. SLANEYsaid, he should oppose the Amendment, because he thought it necessary that the ground in question should be retained for any future public service.
§ MR. GLADSTONEsaid, he would rather have wished to see the clause modified than rejected altogether, because he thought that the terms under which alone the clause would permit the Government to retain possession of this valuable piece of land were too stringently defined. The Government was not permitted to retain the land for public uses on its own responsibility, or for the encouragement of science, art, and education largely defined, but it was allowed to retain it only for purposes connected with the Department of Science and Art, and that limitation was to be imposed by an Act of the Legislature. It appeared to him that the Committee ought to enlarge the discretion of the Government with respect to the application of the land. The effect of omitting the clause altogether would be to put the Exhibition Commissioners in possession of the whole estate at Kensington Gore, with all the buildings upon it, full as they were of valuable public property. Some of those contents had been purchased by the nation, and some, like the Sheepshanks' Gallery, presented in such a manner that they could not be handed over to any Commissioners. He thought the price fixed was perfectly equitable. The land was about twelve and a half acres, which cost £4,000 per acre, or £50,000 altogether. A small piece of land was purchased for £2,000 to improve the approach, and £2,000 more was expended in laying out the road, and £4,000 per acre was paid for two acres, which formed the site of the road. These sums made together £62,000, and therefore £60,000 was a very fair price for the public to pay. He hoped that so far from leaving out the clause, the Committee would rather enlarge the discretionary power of the Government in dealing with this land.
§ MR. SPOONERsaid, the right hon. Gentleman had spoken as if the Commissioners were not trustees for the public. In point of fact they were so, and 94 therefore there was no reason why the Sheepshanks' Collection should not be placed in their hands. The object of those, who wished to have the clause omitted was that the Government should have no more to do with the Department of Science and Art; and if this second clause were given up, and the twelve acres handed over to the Commissioners, these gentlemen would afterwards act in the matter as trustees for the public. It was bad in principle that money proceeding from the general taxation of the country should be spent for a matter in which the whole country was not concerned. He might be told that the whole country benefited by the arts and sciences, but he maintained that there must be a great number of persons who would never be benefited by the institutions in question. If the persons interested in arts and sciences were told that they must in future rely on their own resources, they would be stimulated thereby to act more for themselves, and the arts and sciences would derive advantage from that circumstance. He should vote for the omission of the second clause.
MR. COWPERsaid, that if the hon. Gentleman, who appeared to think that the Sheepshanks' Collection could be handed over to the Commissioners, would read the blue book he would see that Mr. Sheepshanks objected to his collection being handed over to any board or set of Commissioners, but wished it to be placed under the control of those responsible Ministers of the Crown who had the supervision of the Educational Department. He believed that very few people in this country shared the views of the hon. Member who had just spoken with regard to art and science. Such views were more suited to the times of the Goths and Vandals than to the present enlightened days.
§ MR. SPOONERsaid, notwithstanding the allusion made to the Goths and Vandals he should not abdicate the function of protecting the tax-payers of this country. He maintained that Mr. Sheepshanks' wish with regard to his Collection would be carried out by the responsible Minister of the Crown arranging that a Royal Commission should take charge of it.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that the objection of his hon. Friend the Member for Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) might be a very valid one as against the Department of Science and Art, but it had no connection with the 95 matter now under discussion. As he himself was responsible for the insertion of this clause in the Bill, he could state that it had been inserted for the protection of the public interest. When the Government and the Royal Commissioners agreed to dissolve the partnership which existed, the latter paying to the Government £182,000, it was natural enough for them to say, "If we pay you this money you must put us in possession of the property we have purchased." That appeared to be only fair; but at the same time it happened part of that property was covered with buildings occupied by collections having reference to science and art, and, indeed, it formed what might be termed the Home Department for the Administration of Science and Art. Inasmuch as the Commissioners had purchased the land, it was quite open for them to tell Government that they must remove that department. It was, therefore, necessary to make some arrangement; they had no other site to which they could remove the department, but were nevertheless bound by the conditions of Mr. Sheepshanks' will. The question, therefore, was, whether they should pay a rent for the use of the present site. That rent would have been very heavy, as it naturally would have been calculated upon the original cost of the buildings and ground. It was suggested, therefore, that instead of paying a rent, the establishment should remain until ulterior arrangements were made, an amount of purchase money being retained equal to the price given by the Royal Commissioners, making no allowance for the increased value of the land and the improvements of the neighbourhood. It appeared to him that that was one of the most moderate arrangements which could have been entered into. That was the only issue raised by the clause, and all that his hon. Friend the Member for Warwickshire said about the inexpediency of Government interference with science and art, had no more to do with this matter than it had to do with Kensington Gore. As to the Commissioners taking charge of Mr. Sheepshanks' Collection, that was simply impossible. They had no more right to take charge of Mr. Sheepshanks' Gallery, or of the Department of Science and Art, than any Member of that House. They could not do it under their present powers, and the hon. Gentleman might just as well propose that they should administer the Home Department. It was 96 a public department; and if it was established solely on the land which belonged to the Royal Commissioners, the Government was there virtually as a tenant.
§ MR. JOSEPH LOCKEsaid, he did not quite understand the right hon. Gentleman. Were the Government prepared to carry out the Department of Science and Art, or not? On his part he had never dissociated the Department of Science and Art from the Royal Commissioners. This was the first time an attempt had been made to separate them. He thought that as they had decided that the National Gallery was not to be removed, they ought not to allow the Department of Science and Art to go where they did not admit the National Gallery to be carried. He must, therefore, if necessary, vote against the clause, though he should be very sorry to give up the present establishment as it was.
§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he thought that the exact sum which the Government was going to give ought to be stated in the clause.
§ MR. DRUMMONDsaid, it was plain that this matter did not go on all fours—that there was some secret or other behind. At one time it was said that the Commissioners had nothing to do with the Department of Science and Art, at another that they were going to set up schools at Kensington. But what could they teach there? Some hon. Gentlemen had been very severe on the hon. Member for North Warwickshire (Mr. Spooner) for advancing notions which they said were worthy only of the Goths and Vandals; but those much abused nations when they wanted to teach anybody anything generally went the very shortest way to work about it. If they wanted to teach a boy shoemaking they apprenticed him to a shoemaker, and he learnt the art by actually putting it into practice. In the same way a boy was taught to be a builder by being engaged in building houses, a carpenter by being put to carpenter's work, and so on. But this kind of teaching could certainly not be carried on at Kensington.
§ MR. CONINGHAMsaid, if the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer wished to advance science and art he could not do better than assent to the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Ashton (Mr. M. Gibson) for the repeal of the paper duty.
SIR GEORGE LEWISsaid, that if there was anything mysterious or secret 97 about the clause it arose from the misunderstanding under which some hon. Members laboured as to its meaning. He was responsible for the arrangements proposed regarding Kensington Gore, and he was now prepared to answer any questions and give any explanations on the subject which might be put to him. The arrangements were perfectly bonâ fide. There seemed to be some false impression that the clause about to be inserted was in the interest of the Commissioners, but in point of fact its tendency would be quite the other way. The Government had put up certain buildings at Kensington Gore for the temporary use of the Science and Art Department; those buildings were only of a temporary nature, but the materials were of intrinsic value, and might be removed when the temporary object had been attained. The Science and Art Department, for which those buildings were erected, was a department of the Government, and they had no connection with the Commissioners except as a matter of negotiation. When the Commissioners came to enter into occupation, a question would arise as to what was to be done with the buildings, and if some measures of precaution were not taken the Commissioners might sell those buildings. He hoped the Committee would agree to the clause before them.
MR. WILSONsuggested, that it would meet the difficulty if the clause was amended so as to provide that the land in question should be retained for the use of the public instead of the Department of Science and Art.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, passing by the objection that the word "public" was not such as was generally used in an Act of Parliament, he thought that would be putting too great a restriction on the Commissioners, because the Government might not only keep the land longer than the duration of the Department itself, but might apply it to another purpose.
§ Question put and negatived.
§ Clause agreed to, as was also Clause 3.
§ House resumed.
§ Bill reported; as amended, to be considered To-morrow.