METROPOLIS LOCAL MANAGEMENT ACT AMENDMENT BILL.—SECOND READING.

HC Deb 19 July 1858 vol 151 cc1701-45

Order for Second Reading read.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, he rose to express a hope that the Government, before proceeding further, would furnish some fuller and clearer explanation of the provisions of this Bill than they had yet afforded to the House. One of the main objects of the Bill, as he understood it, was to increase the already extensive powers of the Metropolitan Board of Works—a body which did not directly represent the property within the area of its operations, but merely emanated from vestries. He had been a party to the clause in the former Bill, which imposed the check of the Board of Works upon the expenditure of the Metropolitan Board, and he did so in order that important matters of expenditure might be brought before Parliament. But the right hon. Gentleman (Sir B. Hall) had taken a step beyond this, and had himself ordered a plan to be referred to referees, which was beyond his powers. The present Bill, however, did away with I all the checks which existed in the existing Act, and gave to the Metropolitan Board the power of taxing the inhabitants of London to an enormous extent, without providing for the judicious and effective expenditure of the money so collected. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, in his opening speech, had referred to certain documents, but not a single document or plan had yet been laid on the table, and the probability was that the £3,000,000 which the Bill empowered the Metropolitan Board to borrow would be wasted. He thought it ought to be explained whether the owner as well as the occupier of property was to pay any portion of the £140,000 a year. In his opinion, the sewer-rate was one which property was interested in and derived benefit from, and it appeared hard that the tax should exclusively fall on the accidental occupier for one year. Hon. Members should remember that they were giving a power of taxation, not over their own constituents, but over the metropolitan portion of the community, and as it appeared to him very difficult to understand how this taxation would work, he thought it was important that the intentions of the framers of the measure upon this point should be clearly understood

MR. AKROYD

said, it appeared to him that, though the Government was strongly impressed with the necessity of legislating on this subject before the end of the Session, they were somewhat afraid of the responsibility they might incur in propounding a distinct plan on this subject, and therefore had preferred to devolve the duty, with arbitrary powers, upon the Metropolitan Board of Works. When the Bill was introduced he listened with deep attention to the remarks of the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who on that occasion praised the municipal spirit of the corporate towns throughout England; and from the remarks of the right hon. Member, he thought some provision would have been introduced into the Bill conferring on the inhabitants of London the powers and privileges of self government; and it would have been easy to have divided the metropolis into districts for the purpose. What the nation, however, was more particularly concerned in, and what it more particularly behoved the representatives of the nation to consider, was the time at which they were asked to confer this guarantee of £3,000,000. The nation had only just recovered from the burden of the Russian war, and the burden of the Indian war was now looming in the distance, and yet they were called upon to guarantee £3,000,000 for some scheme which was not even before them. What was the nature of the security to be given for the repayment of the sums thus guaranteed? He did not think that £3,000,000 would accomplish the purification of the Thames. He did not think that it would even carry the sewage down to Barking Reach. But then there was, in addition, the embankment of the Thames, the execution of which must at some time be undertaken. A Select Committee had sat on this question, and valuable and important evidence, which was not yet in the hands of hon. Members, had been given before it. Was it not reasonable that an opportunity should be afforded to hon. Members to consider the evidence before the present Bill passed? The Committee received evidence showing that the deodorizing system at Leicester had been entirely successful, and a witness observed that the cost of the plant to apply that system in the metropolis would barely exceed the annual interest of the sum which was now required to be guaranteed. With respect to the plan which it was understood would be carried out by the Metropolitan Board of Works, the Government referees, who were engineers of eminence, reported that it would fail in effecting the objects sought to be attained. They stated that the proposition to throw the whole of the sewage of the metropolis in a concentrated mass into the Thames at Barking would not prevent it returning within the metropolitan districts, and injuring the eastern districts lying contiguous to the Thames, the population of which had increased. Another strong objection to the scheme was, that it would deprive the Thames of a large amount of liquid, and thereby affect the navigation in the upper part of the river. If 80,000,000 gallons of liquid sewage, or one-fifth of the whole volume of the Thames, were taken out of it daily by intercepting sewers, he would ask the House to reflect upon the effect which might be produced upon the navigation. The water, so far from being diminished, ought to be increased. Sewage matter, indeed, was not wanted, but the liquid might be purified and made to flow into the Thames. In the North of England, when waterwork companies took water out of streams, they were compelled to form compensation reservoirs for the purpose of maintaining the full volume of the stream during the summer. He thought that the London waterwork companies, which took daily 40,000,000 of gallons out of the Thames, ought to be compelled to construct similar reservoirs. He knew, indeed, that the House could not itself enter into the discussion of these questions. All he wished was that they might not rush into hasty legislation on the subject, and especially that they would not assent to granting the national guarantee for the repayment of this £3,000,000 without carefully considering the security. They already had a specimen of the manner in which their guarantee would be dealt with in the example of Chelsea Bridge. He thought, upon these grounds, that this Bill should not be passed in haste. The hot weather was passed, and hon. Members should be allowed an opportunity during the recess of reading the evidence given before the Committee up stairs. He should oppose the passing of the Bill at present.

MR. LOWE

said, that before intrusting the Metropolitan Board of Works with the absolute power of levying £3,000,000 upon the inhabitants of the metropolis, and before pledging the public credit of this country as a guarantee for that amount, he thought the House ought to satisfy themselves, in the first place, that the Board of Works was a body worthy of being intrusted with so great a power, and, secondly, that the money was likely to be employed in the manner most beneficial to those from whose pockets it was taken. He left others to show what were the qualities which had recommended the Metropolitan Board of Works to the choice of the Government. For his own part, it appeared to him that that Board had yet to win its laurels. He thought it worthy of consideration whether they ought to intrust a Board constituted by double election, which rendered it almost irresponsible to the constituents from whom it derived its powers, with authority to expend so large an amount as £3,000,000. There were also questions relating to contracts and other matters, to which he would not now refer, but the subject was one of great importance, and should be approached in a farsighted spirit. They ought not to seek to apply a mere temporary palliative, but they ought to endeavour to adopt a system of permanent legislation, adapted to the probable extension of the metropolis and the increase of its population, or in a few years they might find that the money spent in palliating the evil had been thrown away, and that the whole work must be commenced anew. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Akroyd) had said that there was no scheme before them, but he (Mr. Lowe) complained that a very inadequate scheme had been submitted to that House. They had on the table the plan of the Metropolitan Board of Works. It was mere prudery to say that they did not know precisely what that Board intended to do, and the House should form a judgment upon the plan before they made up their minds to adopt it. Hon. Gentlemen were aware that the plan of the Metropolitan Board of Works was that the sewage of the metropolis should be collected at a place on the River Lea, about twenty feet below high-water level; that it should be pumped from thence by steam machinery; and that it should then be discharged into a reservoir at Barking Creek, a mile below Woolwich, whence, having undergone a process of deodorization by mixture with lime, it should be discharged into the Thames. Now, this plan was calculated to carry off the sewage of a population of 3,500,000; but when the population of London exceeded that number the sewage would gradually increase, and every shower of rain would carry sewage and pollution into the Thames. Supposing the future increase of the metropolitan population to proceed at the same rate as it had done since 1801, in 1871 the contrivance now proposed would be entirely exhausted, and the sewage would run into the Thames in consequence of the inability of the sewers to contain it. The scheme could not be brought into operation in less than five or six years, and in six or seven years afterwards it would be utterly inadequate, and after having spent £3,000,000 to remedy the complaints now made, they would have to begin their work over again. This subject had been submitted by the late Chief Commissioner of the Board of Works to certain Government referees, whose plan was to form a canal which would carry off the sewage by gravitation to Sea Reach, far below Gravesend, where it would be discharged into the river. He asked the House to contrast that plan and the scheme they were now called upon to sanction with regard to effects and expense. The plan now proposed would carry the sewage into the Thames at Barking, where the river was only three-quarters of a mile wide, and where the current was exceedingly slack. The plan of the Government referees would carry the sewage into the river at Sea Reach, where there was an exceedingly strong current down the river, which was at that point a mile and a quarter in width, and whence the sewage would be carried by the ebb tide to a point from which it could not by any possibility return above the point at which it was discharged. The plan of the Board of Works proposed the deodorization of the sewage, not when it was fresh, but after fermentation had begun, when the process of deodorization would be much less complete, and the whole mass, whether deodorized or not, was to be discharged into the river. There were 118 miles of metropolitan area, and the plan of the Board of Works proposed only to drain twenty-seven miles by gravitation, while the plan of the Government referees proposed to drain eighty-one miles by gravitation. He would now ask the House to compare the expense of the two plans. It was said that in this respect the argument was in favour of the Board of Works, because, although their plan was not so complete as that of the Government referees, it was much cheaper. The plan of the Government referees, if it were adopted, would be sufficient to carry off the sewage of a population of 6,000,000, whereas that of the Board of Works would only carry off the sewage of 3,500,000. The estimate of the Board of Works was £3,000,000, while the estimate of the Government referees commenced with a charge of £6,000,000. The charge to be borne by the ratepayers must not, however, be estimated merely by the amount of capital sunk at the commencement of either plan, but by the permanent annuities which must be paid for the continuance of the schemes. What would be the annual expense of carrying out the plan of the Board of Works after the estimated £3,000,000 had been spent? In eight or ten years from this time, according to the best authority to which he had access, the expense under this plan of pumping up sewage from the low level of the River Lea to the high level of Barking Creek would be £45,000; the expense of deodorizing upon Messrs. Bidder, Hawksley, and Bazalgette's system would be £76,000; and the expense of removing useless deodorized matter in barges would be £30,000. There would thus be a permanent annual charge of £151,000 upon the ratepayers of London. If the whole cost of the annuity with which the ratepayers would be saddled were capitalized, it would, with the £3,000,000 actually spent, amount to no less than £7,000,000, and for this sum they would obtain, not a complete scheme of drainage, but one the efficiency of which would be exhausted in 1871, when new works would become necessary. Now, what would be the expense of the scheme of the Government referees, under which the sewage would be carried into the Thames at Sea Reach, at a point to which the eddies setting down the river would prevent its return? The first cost of this plan would be £6,000,000 for the construction of the canal to Sea Reach, and the annual expense for pumping sewage would be £40,000. That would be about £1,000,000 more, and the whole cost would be exactly the same as that of the other system—namely,—7,000,000. Look, however, at the difference between the results achieved by the two plans. In the one case the whole effect of the expenditure would cease in 1871, while in the other a comparatively permanent remedy would be provided, at least until the population of London reached 6,000,000, which was looking forward quite as far as it was necessary to do. Now, suppose the discharge of the sewage into Barking Creek was found to be an intolerable nuisance; some compensation ought in justice to be given to the owners of property there; and this was a point deserving of consideration. But it might be found necessary, after all, to send the sewage down to Sea Reach. Of course, £3,000,000 would already have been spent, in addition to which it was the opinion of the Board of Works themselves that it would cost £3,000,000 more to extend the drainage to Sea Reach. All the pumping, which at the River Lea cost £45,000, would be required, besides similar pumping at Barking Creek, the cost of which was estimated at £55,000—in all £100,000, or (capitalizing it) £3,000,000. The result would thus be that, if the plan should be found inadequate, as he had suggested, it would be necessary to spend £9,000,000 or thereabouts upon it; and even then the drainage powers of the metropolis would still be limited to meet the wants of 3,500,000 of inhabitants. If the Government referees should contract their scheme so as to provide only for 3,500,000 of people, he was informed that this could be done for £4,500,000; so that (supposing the information he had received were correct) to perform the work in this way would require about half the sum required to carry out the plan of the Board of Works. The scheme which the House was virtually asked to sanction in this Bill was really one for spending £7,000,000 upon a system of drainage which would become too small for the wants of the metropolis when the population reached 3,500,000, and the extension of which would cost £9,000,000, though it would even then still be open to the same objection. On the other hand, the plan of the Government referees would provide complete drainage for the wants of the metropolis until the population reached 6,000,000; it would get rid of all complicated machinery, all schemes of deodorization, the success of which was quite uncertain, and would employ the natural deodorizer which Providence had provided—water. He might, perhaps, be considered presumptuous in having offered an opinion on this subject, but, having devoted some little time to its consideration, he had arrived at such strong conclusions with reference to it that he could not resist the feeling of duty which led him to state them to the House.

MR. HEADLAM

regretted that the House was compelled to discuss this question on July 19, in a thin House consisting of hon. Members wearied by a protracted Session, and under a pressure from without which led many to make use of that dangerous phrase—"Well, at any rate we must do something." He believed that the House by no means appreciated the magnitude and the ultimate importance of the work before it. A constitutional principle was involved in the scheme for carrying the work into execution. The evil from which the metropolis was now suffering affected in some degree all the streams throughout the country, which were more or less poluted by town sewage, and the scheme adopted in the case of the Thames would, therefore, probably be looked to all over England as an example in legislation of this kind. Parliament were now asked to impose, for forty years, a tax of 3d. a pound upon the inhabitants of London, after doing which they were to discharge themselves from all responsibility in regard to the execution of the works. They were asked to hand over the money to another body which owed them no responsibility, and over which they had no control, and without taking any care that the scheme should be properly expended. Now, if the Board of Works were truly the representative body of the metropolis, which, to his mind, it was not, it was singularly ill-calculated to carry out works of mechanical, chemical, and engineering science. It was probably a body well calculated to tax its constituents, but it it was, in his opinion, ill-calculated to execute works of that description. The House of Commons was the first deliberative assembly in the world; but it was not an executive body, and very wisely did not attempt executive functions. There was an exception to this general rule in the case of the building of the Houses of Parliament, which Parliament took into its own hands. Had the result of that step proved so encouraging that they ought to extend the principle by giving a taxing body like the Board of Works the charge of a great engineering work like that at present under discussion? But it was said that by handing over the duty to the Board they were merely carrying out the municipal principle. He denied that it was so, unless the opinion of the inhabitants of the metropolis could be fairly taken as to which plan they preferred, and how far they concurred in the proposal to impose a tax upon them for forty years. Again, was it right to hand over this sum to the Board of Works without taking some guarantee for its proper application? The Metropolitan Board of Works was not responsible to a human creature. Neither the House nor the ratepayers of the metropolis could control them, and it was left to chance whether they would administer these funds properly or not. The noble Lord the First Commissioner of Works, used a singularly happy phrase when he said, "If the inhabitants of the metropolis pay the piper, they ought to choose the tune;" but the misfortune was that they had no power whatever of selecting the tune. His own individual opinion was that they would give infinitely more satisfaction to the metropolis if they required the works to be carried into effect by and under the responsibility of the Government. If they did that, the House would be placed in a truer and more constitutional position. The people of the metropolis did not want any such thing as the mere fiction of a representation. What they wanted was that the work should be well done; and the inhabitants of London were of opinion that it would be much better done under the direct control of the Government than by the Board of Works. As to the scheme itself, by means of which the purification of the Thames was sought to be accomplished, he would only say that even if it were successfully carried out to the extent which was proposed, the object which its authors professed to have in view would be but half attained. The evil was not confined to the odour arising at a certain portion of the year. The banks of the river were as unsightly to the eye as the odour was disagreeable to the nose, but there was this difference, that the unsightliness lasted the whole year, while the odour continued fortunately only for a short period. He thought the Thames would never be put in proper order until it was embanked, and he would suggest that the two great works of embankment and drainage should be commenced contemporaneously and carried on together. In support of that opinion he might adduce the testimony of the most eminent engineers, who maintained that unless the mud banks to which he referred were removed, the evil of which the inhabitants of the metropolis had so much reason to complain would not be obviated. The action of the sun upon those mud banks was, in their opinion, one of the main causes of the existing nuisance, and that cause, he should contend, instead of having its force diminished, would rather be further developed by the scheme under con- sideration, whose operation would be to decrease the quantity of water in the river. To show how beneficial was the addition of a supply of fresh water to the river, and how prejudicial in its influence would be the effect of any diminution in that supply, he might mention that he had, upon the previous day, been unable to find any offensive odour from the Thames between Chelsea and Westminster Bridges, notwithstanding that the temperature of the atmosphere was but very little lower than had been the case about three weeks before, when the stench had been almost intolerable. That improved state of things he held to be the result of the addition of the fresh water which within that period the river had received, and it was, he thought, therefore perfectly obvious that if the Metropolitan Board of Works were—as it would seem they proposed to do—to diminish the fresh water in the Thames to the extent of the quantity falling over a space of 100 square miles, they would be doing much to increase the evil which they professed themselves anxious to remove. For his own part, he could not help thinking that it was most unsatisfactory to the House to be called upon to sanction a scheme the prosecution of which would cost so large a sum as £3,000,000, and the operation of which could not at the best be regarded as otherwise than uncertain. He, for one, entirely deprecated the policy of sanctioning that scheme until others, which presented a greater probability of being attended with success, had been tried and had failed; while he was strongly of opinion that it would be much more satisfactory to the ratepayers of the metropolis if Her Majesty's Ministers were to carry into effect the work of purifying the Thames under their own authority and upon their own responsibility, instead of intrusting it to a Board which had, to say the least of it, not been sufficiently long in existence to be able to win for itself the confidence of the country.

MR. STUART WORTLEY

said, that while he was disposed to give the Government every credit for having introduced the Bill before the House with the best intentions, he yet was afraid that they had been induced, by a desire to allay the anxiety which prevailed among the inhabitants of the metropolis, to deal with the subject of the purification of the Thames in a somewhat hasty manner, and consequently in a manner which was but too likely to lead to imperfect and unsatisfactory results. The discussion, however, which the Bill then before the House was sure to give rise to, would, perhaps, lead to the introduction of a satisfactory measure,—although he did not believe there could be any measure that would prove satisfactory which was unconnected with the general question of the government of the metropolis. The present Bill was open to the objection of pledging Parliament to a particular scheme, for in the first clause the Metropolitan Board of Works was directed to intercept the main drainage. Now, the House had heard from the hon. Member for Andover (Mr. Cubitt), himself a member of the Metropolitan Board, that he not only doubted the efficacy of, but apprehended great danger from, any such measure; and any one who had gone above Richmond must be aware of the effect which the withdrawal of so much water by the various companies had upon the river. Again, he found no security in the Bill for carrying out its object; true, powers were given, and money was granted, but there was nothing to prevent the Board from doing what they had already done in several instances—voting for one scheme on one and another on another. What was still more objectionable, any scheme that they might agree upon would be subject to the approval of no other authority; in fact, the Board might carry out any scheme they pleased. Now, was the House quite sure that that Board was one in which the universal public had entire confidence? For his part he did not know the names of many of the gentlemen who had seats at the Board. No doubt they were respectable persons, distinguished in the vestries of the metropolis, used to deal with parochial questions, and possessed of ability and integrity. But did they command the entire confidence of the metropolis? He confessed that wherever he had been he had always heard a very different opinion expressed upon that head. Were they the representatives of any class of the community? Why, they were not the representatives even of the ratepayers. They were the representatives of the vestries; and in too many instances the majority in a vestry was a mere party. Again, by the Bill a Committee was to be chosen out of the whole body to carry out this plan, so that in fact responsibility would be twice diluted. Could anything be more unsatisfactory? Though the House was obliged to the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kidder- minster (Mr. Lowe) for the knowledge and ability he had displayed with regard to the details of the plans for the main drainage of London, yet the present was not the proper opportunity for discussing rival schemes. It occurred to him (Mr. S. Wortley), however, that it would be dealing with the question in a most unsatisfactory manner if they dealt with it on a narrow ground, dissociated from the question of the general government of the metropolis. In his opinion the present government of the metropolis was disgraceful to the country; and he would take the liberty of reminding the House of the recommendations which had been made by the Commissioners appointed to inquire into the Corporation of London, and who had particularly directed their attention to the question of the drainage of the metropolis. After giving it as their opinion that the Corporation should be reformed, and that their jurisdiction should be confined to the present limits of the City, the Commissioners recommended that the rest of the metropolis should be divided into districts for municipal purposes; that in the event of such division being made, a metropolitan board of works should be created, composed of members deputed from each metropolitan municipal body, including the common council of the City; that the coal duties now collected by the Corporation of London, so long as they remained in force, should be placed at the disposition of the new Board, and that in case the coal duties expiring in 1862 should not be renewed, the fourpence levied in behalf of the City should cease at the same time. They also recommended that the Board should have power to levy a rate, limited to a fixed poundage, for public works over the metropolitan district, and that no works should be executed by them unless the plans should have been approved by the Committee of the Privy Council. Now, that some such check as this ought to be imposed on the present Board was, in his judgment, extremely desirable, though he by no means pledged himself to the support of that particular scheme. But, seeing how the question affected a vast amount of property in the metropolis, could any man say that the Metropolitan Board represented the proprietary of the metropolis? It was doubtful even if they represented the ratepayers; if they represented anything, they represented the democracy and the ratepaying interests of the metropolis—certainly not the proprietors. It was also most desirable that upon such a Board there should be some man or men of science; and that House well knew what help they derived from the aid of such gentlemen as the hon. Gentleman the Member for Honiton (Mr. Locke) and the hon. Gentleman the Member for Whitby (Mr. Stephenson). He agreed with the Commissioners, too, that the rights and property of the Crown ought to be protected; and with these views he could not help saying—though without wishing to cast any blame upon the Government—that, in his opinion, the House was proceeding with great haste and hurry in endeavouring to legislate upon the subject at the end of a Session, when it was utterly impossible that a question of such magnitude and importance could be dealt with satisfactorily.

LORD JOHN MANNERS

said, he had often heard it said that the House of Commons was subject to periodical fits of heat and cold; and he must say that he had never witnessed a more striking proof of the accuracy of the assertion than during the debates on the question of the drainage of the metropolis and the purification of the Thames in the course of the last six weeks. Only a fortnight ago Her Majesty's Government were absolutely threatened with impeachment by the front rows of the Opposition benches, unless they settled the question within twenty-four hours. At that time he had put in a dilatory plea and stated that the Government had the matter under their consideration, and now that they had had time to examine it, and had framed a scheme which they deliberately recommended the House to sanction and adopt, they were met with the statement that they were rashly, and with undue haste, attempting to settle a question which, after all, might be well postponed to another year; and, if he understood his right hon. Friend (Mr. Wortley), until the coal duties lapsed, in 1862. Now, what reason was there for throwing over this important question to another year? Some hon. Gentlemen had treated it as if it were an entirely new question; but, for his part, he considered the question not a new one; scientific opinions without number had been taken, and every man's mind was made up. He was bound to say that he knew no question that had been so canvassed, so thoroughly threshed and sifted, as the question of the drainage of the metropolis. During the last few years Commissions and Committees had sat and reported upon the subject; and when the House remembered the number of schemes which had been proposed, and the vast amount of evidence which had been taken respecting it, he was sure they could not come to the conclusion that the Government were now proposing inopportunely, and with undue haste, to settle the question. If it were the deliberate opinion of the House of Commons that no decision ought to be come to this year, upon the House of Commons be the responsibility of continuing and perhaps perpetuating the present state of things. On behalf of the Government he distinctly repudiated all such responsibility. The responsibility of action Her Majesty's Government were willing to take upon themselves; the responsibility of inaction they refused. His hon. Friend said, "that is just what we want." He (Lord J. Manners) begged to tell his hon. Friend that, having duly considered this question, the Government were of opinion that the only way in which their action could be beneficially, or even constitutionally brought to bear, was that contained in the four corners of this Bill. An hon. and learned Member (Mr. Headlam) had told them that this was a question which, in its length and breadth, ought to be taken up as a whole and carried out on the responsibility of Her Majesty's Government, who should themselves execute not only the drainage, but the purification and embankment of the Thames. His hon. Friend had spoken at some length and with great ability, and he (Lord J. Manners) had listened to him with the greatest attention; but he had failed to discover any inkling whatever from what quarter the Government were to obtain the funds to pay for these great works. Out of what funds, he should like to know, were the Government to do this? Would the hon. Gentleman give the ways and means? Did the hon. Gentleman mean that they were to set themselves up as a pure and naked despotism, and take the money required to execute these works out of the pockets of the ratepayers of the metropolis against their will, if not without their knowledge? Or did he mean that it should be made a great national undertaking, and that the whole expense should be borne out of the Consolidated Fund? If that were his hon. and learned Friend's view, then all he could say was, that he respectfully declined making any such appeal to Parliament; and, if the opinion of the majority of that House was in harmony with his own, what alternative could be adopted except that of intrusting to the municipality which represented, if any one did, the pockets of the ratepayers of the metropolis the power and responsibility of carrying out these works? He had listened with surprise to the arguments which had been brought to bear against the constitution of the Board; but he would remind the House that that Board was constituted on the appeal of a liberal Ministry, which numbered amongst its members the right hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. R. Lowe) who had spoken this evening in such strong terms of denunciation of this "quasi representative body." Now he supposed the intention of the Government and the Legislature would be found in the preamble of the Act which set up that body, and what did it say?— That it is expedient that provision should be made for the better local management of the metropolis in respect of the sewerage, the drainage, and the paving, cleansing, lighting, and improving thereof;"— And clauses were contained in the Act which compelled the Board to undertake the very work which was now proposed to be entrusted to them—the main drainage of the metropolis and the purification of the Thames. The right hon. Member for Kidderminster was a consenting party to the introduction of that Act, and he would ask him whether, when the whole bench opposite were setting up this new Board, they did or they did not believe in their hearts that they were setting up a pure sham, and that they were deluding the metropolitan constituencies with the idea that they would have an effective municipality, which at the end of five or six years would thoroughly drain the metropolis and purify the Thames? He was bound to come to the latter conclusion, and he confessed, therefore, that he had listened with surprise to the statements which had been made to-night in denunciation of the original constitution of this body, and with still more surprise to the description of the manner in which it was composed. His right hon. Friend (Mr. Wortley) urged as a reason why it was impossible to entrust the Board with the powers conferred by this Bill, that he did not know the names of some of them. That was very possible. Could his right hon. Friend tell him the names of half the corporations of Liverpool or Manchester? And was the House to assume that these corporations were worthless, unless the right hon. Gentleman, or some other hon. Member, could give them the birth, parentage, and history of all their members. He (Lord John manners) protested against this line of argument. Here was a great municipality which had been created three years ago by the solemn decision of the Legislature for a definite and specified purpose, and without now entering minutely into the quarrel between the right hon. Gentleman opposite (the late Chief Commissioner of Works) and the members of that body, he thought every impartial man would admit that if the Metropolitan Board of Works had not yet carried out any plan for the main drainage of the metropolis, it was not fair to lay the blame exclusively at their door. The justification for the introduction of the present Bill was, that the powers with which it was assumed the Metropolitan Board of Works was clothed were not sufficient for the purposes contemplated; and, that being admitted on all hands, Her Majesty's Government now came to Parliament and asked it to give that Board those further powers which were necessary for the satisfactory settlement of the question. On the previous occasion he had declined to enter into the engineering and chemical questions involved in the various plans which had been proposed for the main drainage of the metropolis, and everything which had passed that evening showed how unwise and injudicious it was in hon. Members plunging into endless and useless discussions on such topics. The hon. Member for Huddersfied (Mr. Akroyd), who was a member of a Committee which had that day concluded its labours, had given his views as to how these questions might be settled, and he had been followed by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Kidderminster, who in a most ingenious and elaborate speech endeavoured to set up the plan of the referees of the Commissioners of Works against that of the engineers of the Metropolitan Board. No doubt, many hard things were said by the referees against the plan proposed by the engineers of the Board; but having read all the papers he could state that equally hard, if not harder, things were said by the engineers of the Metropolitan Board of Words against the plan recommended by the referees of the Chief Commissioner. He entreated the House, therefore, not to be led into discussions of that nature; for they might rely upon it, that if they once undertook to settle in their minds what was the best plan, in an engineering or chemical point of view, of draining the metropolis and purifying the Thames, they must constitute themselves into a perpetual Committee. The Committee which was appointed to inquire into the subject had that day closed its labours, more from a feeling of the perfect hopelessness of going through all the plans which were about to be submitted to it than on any other account. If, then, the House agreed with him that it was vain and futile to hope that they could embody in a Bill what the two Houses of Parliament might think to be the best plan for the main drainage of the metropolis and the purification of the Thames; that the powers vested in the Metropolitan Board of Works were insufficient for these great purposes; that the national resources should not be called on to pay for local objects; and that the inhabitants of the metropolis, who would have to provide the funds, should have a voice in the matter, what better plan could be devised than that which was contained in the Bill which he now asked them to read a second time? As yet he had heard no answer to that. No one who had spoken to-night had suggested a better plan, so far as legislation was concerned. And until hon. Gentlemen pointed out a plan which gave the Legislature and the inhabitants of the metropolis a greater certainty that the works they were so intent upon carrying into effect could be accomplished, he entreated the House not to lose that, perhaps the last opportunity they would have, of investing with sufficient powers that Board which they found ready to their hands, and which was set up three years ago as a real effective and popular representation of every portion of this vast metropolis. Before resuming his seat he would endeavour to answer the question which had been put to him by the hon. Member for Evesham (Sir Henry Willoughby), who had asked what were the powers conferred by the Bill, and what the nature of the rate to be levied under it. The rate was what might be termed a sewers rate; and no alteration was made in the nature of it by the Bill. The power which was given to the Board to raise that rate would be retained. He believed that it was what was known in common parlance as a landlord's rate, and that when paid by the tenant would be recoverable from the landlord unless his lease contained a special provision to the contrary.

MR. GLADSTONE

said, he thought the noble Lord laboured under some misapprehension as to the temper and inten- tion of the remarks made by previous speakers. The noble Lord seemed to think that they partook of the nature of complaint or crimination against the Government for a proceeding precipitate on their part. Having listened to the debate, however, with great attention, it appeared to him that the speeches in question were not speeches of accusation against the noble Lord or his colleagues, but were, on the contrary, honest and ingenuous confessions of the difficulty in which the House found itself placed when called upon to assent to the principle of a Bill containing provisions so sweeping as to be out of all proportion to the amount of knowledge and information possessed by hon. Members. He himself was much impressed with that sentiment. He felt distrust of all great measures which derived their immediate impulse from momentary causes, and especially did that feeling prevail with him when the momentary cause out of which any measure took its birth, was of a nature that appealed to the senses in a manner so direct as that with which they were now unhappily so familiar. It was obvious that an atmosphere such as that which had recently prevailed was not favourable to the deliberative character of the House, and that it was hardly compatible, indeed, with the exercise of that circumspection and that careful consideration which a question of this kind on general principles would demand. He agreed with the noble Lord in some most important principles which he had laid down, and which appeared to be placed almost beyond dispute, even in a matter in which much remained that was uncertain. For example, his noble Friend had declined to accept the suggestion of the hon. and learned Member for Newcastle (Mr. Headlam), that the Government should take this matter into its own hands. He agreed with his noble Friend that the time had not come for such a step, because if the Government were to undertake the main drainage of the metropolis that would amount to a proclamation of the absolute incapacity of London for the management of its own affairs, and he confessed that, notwithstanding the difficulties in which the question was now involved—difficulties so serious as not to be without some scandal and discredit to the country—he did not abandon the hope that we might see a larger and much more effective application of the valuable principle of municipal self-government to the metropolis than any that had hitherto been made. He agreed with the noble Lord, too, that the charges of this work and of such other works as might be necessary for the metropolis ought to be borne, generally speaking, by the property and inhabitants of the metropolis itself. Again, it was impossible to doubt that the principle of popular representation ought to be the basis of the constitution of any body which, on the part of the inhabitants of the metropolis, was to be intrusted with the execution of this work. So far it was not difficult to see their way, but the moment they attempted to go further, they were surrounded by such impediments, and doubts, and obscurity, that he, for one, was disposed to plead guilty to a general uncertainty upon the point, whether the House was at this moment ripe for a final decision on the important question raised by the Bill. He would refer to one or two of these points. In the first place, it was undoubtedly true, that if the money of the inhabitants of the metropolis was to be expended upon the purification of the Thames, it ought to be expended by a body elected upon popular principles; but the application of popular principles to the Metropolitan Board of Works, under the joint operation of the existing Act and the present Bill, was so watered, filtered, and strained, through so many media, that he was afraid they had lost all that was valuable in those principles in the complicated process they had established. They wanted to have a real responsibility on the part of those who were to expend the money to the persons out of whose pockets the money was obtained; but that responsibility, under the existing Act, was much less direct and stringent than one could desire. For the purposes of responsibility—above all, for the purposes of responsibility in the expending of money—there was all the difference in the world between direct and indirect representation. The members of the Metropolitan Board of Works were not chosen by the ratepayers of the metropolis, but by the vestries of the different parishes, bodies not appointed to discharge municipal functions at all, but simply and solely for the performance of parochial business. Hence the relations between the Metropolitan Board of Works and those who were to pay the proposed tax were, after all, indirect and circuitous, and now the House was asked to weaken the principle of responsibility still further, because the Bill proposed to empower the Board of Works to appoint from among its own members a small Committee of six, and to leave to that body the exercise of all its powers and functions with respect to the execution of this great scheme. Therefore, without casting any discredit upon the Metropolitan Board of Works, or imputing to them anything either for what they had done, or for what they had left undone, he was disposed to think that, although the principle of popular representation was recognized in the theory of their constitution, yet the application of it was not so direct and palpable as to give them the weight, influence, and vitality which they ought to possess. There was another difficulty which he might notice. In the Metropolitan Board of Works as it stood there was no representation of the property of the metropolis, and in correspondence with that circumstance was the correlative one that it was not proposed that any portion of the rate should be borne by the landed proprietors of the metropolis. The whole charge was to be laid upon the ratepayers or lessees, and no part of it upon the ground landlords. That arrangement, they were told, was conformable to the principle upon which leases had been given in London for building purposes, because they contained express provisions that the ground rents should be free of all local rates and burdens. The difficulty, however, was not got rid of altogether by that consideration, because leases containing such provisions generally dated from a time when there was no idea entertained of burdens of a character such as those the House was now asked to impose, and it was evident that the covenants in leases, which were fixed by long usage and tradition, referred to the ordinary charges with which they were all familiar. But now they were going to make great retribution for the past, and great and costly provision for the future—to meet in fact a great crisis in the history of the metropolis. They had discovered a great neglect; they had found a great blank and void in their arrangements; they were called upon to repair the fault of former generations, and to supply the wants of generations yet to come. It appeared to him, therefore, that a proposition like the one before the House raised questions with regard to the liability of parties that were entirely different from those which were connected with the ordinary local charges of the metropolis. Then came the question whose was the permanent interest in the property of the metropolis? It was not the interest of the occupier nor that of the lessee; and it seemed to him that what they ought to desire, if practicable, should be that, on the one hand, the proprietors of London should be represented in the body that was to make this great expenditure, and that, on the other, their proprietary interest should be made to bear a fair proportion of the charge. It might be urged that the matter was one not easy to settle at a moment's notice. The tenures in London were different from those in the country in general, and it might not be easy at once to suggest the right provisions. Still they should endeavour to throw upon the right parties the burdens of the scheme. Looking at the framework of the Bill, he confessed that it raised a good deal of doubt and difficulty in his mind. He wanted to know who was to be ultimately responsible for the payment of this money. There was no doubt that the Bill provided, or appeared to provide, that the charge should be borne by the metropolis; but at the same time the public, through the medium of the House of Commons, often became involved unawares in pecuniary obligations. He wished, therefore, to look at the framework of the Bill, to see how far it was calculated to secure the ultimate avoidance of such responsibility, or whether it might not have certain latent tendencies, in possible contingencies, to bring responsibility upon the public. There were cases in which the House of Commons had not thought fit to assume minute and particular responsibility for the details of a measure. There had been reports of Ecclesiastical Commissions, and statutes of importance had passed at different periods, wherein the House of Commons had confined itself to the functions of assenting to plans recited in the preamble of the Acts. Now, he did not object abstractedly to the principle of a public guarantee in a matter so important as the present; but he thought it fair that the application of that principle should be watched and scrutinized with the utmost jealousy, for he knew no single class of measures which ought to be watched with greater care, except, indeed, propositions for grants of money, than measures for giving a public guarantee. He wanted to see the responsibility of the body to which it was proposed to give the guarantee, and he wanted to avoid possibly slipping into a position in which it might be said that all was really done on the authority of Parliament, and it was vain for Parliament to think of avoiding to pay for it. He concurred with the right hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Lowe) in not thinking that this was a case in which they were dealing with a popularly elected representative body, which, possessing the confidence of its constituents, and being a competent judge of the subject, had come forward and represented that it simply desired pecuniary aid in the shape of a guarantee for the economical execution of the work. He did not find that set forth in the Bill; but, on the contrary, he found that Parliament seemed to be made in the main the absolute author and projector of the scheme. It was perfectly true that, it was hopeless for hon. Members to arrive at any satisfactory conclusion on engineering and technical questions by the force of discussion in that House; but, though they could not arrive at conclusions themselves on those points, they might reasonably wish to have the best assurance that those points had been adequately considered and authoritatively and competently decided on by those with whom they were dealing. He must confess that the state of the discussion, the pamphlets and publications which had appeared, did not carry conviction to his mind that the question had arrived at such a state of ripeness and maturity as would give the House a hope of satisfactorily dealing with it. There was the great question with respect to the restoration of a large bulk of water to the Thames, at or near the metropolis, which by no means, within his knowledge, had been brought to a settlement. They were not called upon to stand either on their own convictions or on the convictions of those with whom they had to deal. The noble Lord told them it was hopeless to expect to arrive at any conviction of their own. Well, then, let them arrive at the conviction of somebody else. But that was not so. The Bill did not even state that the Metropolitan Board of Works had approved the scheme which the Bill was to sanction. In the first few clauses the Bill contained a recognition and sanction of a plan which was understood to be the plan of the Metropolitan Board, but the Bill promulgated that plan on the authority of Parliament. That was a fact of the utmost importance with respect to the question of ultimate liability. It was all very well to have an estimate of £3,000,000; but human nature was fallible generally, and in no respect more so than in the concoction of estimates. It was quite within the limits of probability that these estimates might fail; and suppose they did, and suppose that this plan proved not to have been the best plan, and that the £3,000,000 proved insufficient, what would be the position of that House in respect to the inhabitants of the metropolis? Would the inhabitants be able to point to the present Bill and say that it was not by their wish, by direct petition or representation that that House assumed to deal with the matter; that the time was not chosen by them, but by the Members of that House, when annoyed by the stench of the Thames; and that the provisions of the Bill were not dictated by a regard for popular principles or by matured convictions, but were the result of a restless haste on the part of Members of Parliament to escape from personal inconvenience? Still, taking all matters into consideration he did not complain of the Government—on the contrary, if his noble Friend understood the question, and felt the ground secure under his feet, he congratulated him on his lofty position; but, for himself, he felt he was not in that position, and from the discussion he felt there were others like him. He, hoped, therefore, his noble Friend would excuse him, and not consider that it was any imputation upon him if he (Mr. Gladstone) confessed it would be a comfort and satisfaction to him if some further time were allowed before the Bill was sanctioned.

MR. ALDERMAN CUBITT

said, he could not but admit that the House was in a difficulty, as there was such a short time allowed for deliberation on this important measure; but still the circumstances were so urgent, that if the House were to separate without sanctioning some plan they would merit the censure of the country. He had no doubt that if the powers contained in this Bill were conferred on the Metropolitan Board of Works they would be able to satisfy all the requirements of public opinion. The only objection he had to the Bill was one which could be amended in Committee. It related to the proviso that if the sewage was readmitted into the Thames above Barking Creek it must be deodorised; but he would ask if the sewage could be deodorised below London, what was to prevent it from being deodorised in London itself? He had no doubt that the work of deodorisation could be accomplished in London. What he should like would be, that the Board of Works should carry out any scheme they pleased, taking care that the river should be made free from all pollutions. A good deal had been said about the composition of the Metropolitan Board of Works, but he could tell hon. Gentlemen that there were members of that Board who would do credit to those benches. It was said that that Board contained no scientific or engineering skill. He maintained that there was both; but at the same time he reminded the House that what was wanted was, not a board of engineers, but a body of men of general intelligence, competent to make a wise selection of their officers—men independent in position and of general business habits. His authority had been quoted for having said on a former occasion that 80,000,000 of gallons were pumped up out of the Thames for the use of the water companies. He ought to have said that half of that water came from the east and half from the west. But still the general fact remained that the condition of the Thames between Westminster Bridge and Richmond was one from which great inconvenience had been felt, and therefore they must be careful how they further diminished the volume of the stream. He hoped in conclusion, that the House would permit the Bill to go into Committee, where such alterations as might be necessary could be made.

MR. CONINGHAM

said, he confessed that he felt considerable alarm at the prospect that the drainage of the metropolis might be handed over to the Metropolitan Board of Works, whose scheme ignored, he believed, the two great principles of the modern system of drainage—the utilization of the sewage by applying it to the soil, and the separation of the sewage from rainwater by a double system of tubular drainage. The Government referees, in a letter addressed by them to the First Commissioner of Works, had shown that with regard to many points the scheme proposed by the Metropolitan Board must fail to effect its object of purifying the sewage, so that the surplus water might be carried into the Thames. It was also an extraordinary circumstance that while the Board proposed to deodorize the western portion of the sewage they proposed to carry away the eastern portion by tunnel. Now, if deodorization would suffice for the west, why should it not suffice for the cast also? A friend of his, Mr. F. O. Ward, in a very able letter he had addressed to him on this subject, made the following observations:— Now, consider the effect of a sudden rainstorm falling on London, and pouring through these overcharged subterranean receptacles, Suppose it only to sweep into the river nine or ten days' accumulation of filth, to what do you imagine that is equivalent? It is equivalent to the simultaneous discharge into the river Thames of the mass of excrement produced in one day by the entire population of Great Britain, numbering 21,000,000. And to such eruptions of filth we should still be frequently liable, even if the great tunnels for mixed rainfall and sewage were built. The money loss on every such occasion would be in ammonia only, without reckoning phosphorus, nearly £16,000. Besides, after every such discharge the tidal river would remain discoloured, and in hot weather putrescent for several days. Such would be the operation of the colossal tunnels on which we are invited to lay out millions; such are the evils consequent on the mingling of rainfall with sewage. The obvious conclusion is, that the tunnel scheme propounded by the Metropolitan Board of Works, with the sanction of Mr. Stephenson and his party, not merely ignores, one-half of the problem in hand—namely, the agricultural utilization of the sewage, but is inadequate to accomplish the moiety which alone it contemplates—namely, the purification of the river. Indeed, by their last vote on this subject the Metropolitan Board resolved to pour the sewage of the western district of London, more or less deodorized, into the Thames above Westminster Bridge, and to reserve the proposed great tunnels for the conveyance of the remaining sewage only. Of deodorization, the mainstay of this scheme, I will only here remark, that while at best it is a costly and imperfect palliative, it becomes quite impracticable precisely when most needed—i.e., when heavy showers are sweeping from the sewers the largest masses of putrescent filth. Independently, however, of this objection, the two parts of the scheme are manifestly inconsistent. For, if deodorization suffices for the west, why is interception necessary for the east? And, contrariwise, if miles of tunnel are required to convey far off the eastern sewage, how can it be right to pour the western sewage into the river above bridge? Surely, the principle must be false that leads to such illogical conclusions. The principle to which, by these and other considerations, my friends and I have been gradually led is shortly this—that the whole of the rainfall is due to the river, the whole of the sewage to the soil. The adoption of this principle s, we believe, as essential for the perfect purification of the Thames as it is for the economical utilization of the sewage. That this may be obvious to you, pray keep in view that when sewage and rainfall are once mixed, whether in the Thames itself or in the minutest of the filaments that feed it (in a street-sewer or in a house drain, for example), those mingled waters can never again be separated. In polluting the smallest of its tributaries you virtually pollute the Thames; and, as it has been said, 'Take care of the pence and the pounds will take care of themselves,' so I venture to say, Purify the tributaries, and the main stream will run pure of itself.' If, now, we trace in each house the course of the rain from roof and area, and the course of the sewage from closet and sink, till we come to the point at which the separate pipes conveying these two distinct streams meet in a single drain, we arrive at the precise boundary line between possible and impossible in this matter of Thames purification and sewage utilization. For, up to this point, and before this meet- ing of two waters, we are free to apply each streamlet to its proper use. We can send the unpolluted rainfall to scour the river, and the undiluted sewage to fertilize the land. But directly this junction point is passed, directly the daily runlet of cistern-water, rich with its freight of ammonia and phosphorus, meets and mingles with the casual rainfall, the two waters become, as we have seen, a worthless, unmanageable mixture, equally unfit for agricultural and urban use. Not only do they cease to be our property, and pass beyond the control of art, but they revert to the domain of nature, spoiled even for her simple service. For this error we are punished by pestilence. I say, therefore, that the battle of interception is to be fought, not on the banks of the river, but in the basements of the houses; not with monstrous tunnels, but with modest tubes; not by the diversion of variable rainbrooks, alternately dry and torrential, but by the diversion of uniform cistern supplies, always moderate and manageable; not at a profitless cost of many millions, yielding no return, but at a profitable outlay of a few millions, producing an ample return—probably half a million per annum. This tubular purification of rivers and fertilization of lands is, indeed, but the logical extension of the tubular drainage of houses and streets which my friends and I have succeeded in establishing after a ten years' struggle with the engineers. And, as our tubular sewers, notwithstanding the strenuous opposition of Mr. Stephenson and his friends, are now working successfully by hundreds of miles, not only in provincial towns, but in the metropolis itself, so also, I am confident, will the tubular purification of the Thames ultimately supersede the monstrous tunnel project, which, if adopted, would cost us many millions, and turn out a gigantic failure after all.…. I have only to add, in conclusion, that the purification of rivers and the utilization of sewage are, in my judgment, but two aspects or incidents of a sanitary organization comprising several other elements, each indispensable to the perfect working of the whole. This complete organization cannot, however, be suddenly accomplished; nor can even its several parts be simultaneously prepared. But in the development of such portions as we may be able presently to undertake the others may be kept in view; and this is in the highest degree desirable, in order that the sanitary works of our day may serve, not as a bar, but as a transition to the more perfect institutions of our successors. Should the monstrous rain and sewage tunnels proposed by the Metropolitan Board be built, they would indeed oppose a serious obstacle to such ulterior progress. But of this I have little fear. Those subterranean rivers are already beginning to be regarded by the ratepayers as a costly and colossal blunder, and, unless I am much mistaken, they will be obsolete before they are begun. He (Mr. Coningham) warned the House against plunging into a scheme which would prove a colossal failure, and which involved a direct attack upon the pockets of the metropolitan ratepayers.

SIR BENJAMIN HALL

said, the noble Lord the First Commissioner of Works had observed that hon. Gentlemen on that (the Opposition) side of the House, who had formerly loudly called upon the Government to take some steps for the purification of the Thames, were now prepared to throw over the whole question. He (Sir B. Hall) begged to assure the noble Lord that he was not one of those who desired to throw over the question, but that, on the contrary, he intended to vote for the second reading of the Bill if a division took place. He thought it right, however, to state the one reason, and the one reason only, which induced him to take that course. He would not enter into the details of the various plans which had been proposed for the drainage of the Metropolis, for nearly all the hon. Gentlemen, who had addressed the House were disposed to adopt different plans if the matter were left to their decision. He thought, however, it was essential that, with a view to the purification of the Thames, the Metropolitan Board of Works should be entrusted with those powers of raising money which were proposed to be vested in them generally by the Bill of 1855, and which the present Bill proposed to confer upon them in a more detailed form. There were, however, some clauses in this Bill which required careful consideration, and to which he hoped strong opposition would be offered. Reference had been made to the recommendations contained in the Report of the Commissions appointed to inquire into the Corporation of London, presented in 1854, and a right hon. Friend of his had stated that the Act of 1855 was not strictly carried out in accordance with the recommendations of those Commissioners. This was quite true; but the general views of the Commissioners had been embodied in the Bill when first introduced; the details could only be determined when it became necessary to enter upon the subject of metropolitan legislation, with a view to the introduction of a measure which was to effect that great and long-desired object. The recommendations to which his right hon. Friend had particularly alluded were these:— We suggest the creation of a Metropolitan Board of Works, to be composed of a limited number of Members deputed to it from the Council of each metropolitan municipal body, including the Corporation of the City. We propose that the management of public works, in which the metropolis has a common interest, should be conducted by this body. At present, works of this sort can only be undertaken either by the Corporation of London, from its own peculiar funds, or under powers created for the purpose by special legislation, or by the executive Government out of Parliamentary grants. It is manifest that a power of executing public works of general metropolitan importance, such as the contruction of bridges over the Thames, or the opening or widening of main lines of streets, accompanied by a power of metropolitan taxation, would, though founded on a basis of popular election, require efficient safeguards for its prudent and useful exercise. We, therefore, think that the plans of the works to be executed should be submitted to a committee of the Privy Council, and its consent obtained before they are carried into effect. We may add, that cases may arise where public works may be executed in the metropolis partly out of the metropolitan fund and partly from Parliamentary grants, and that in these cases a control of the executive Government such as we have proposed would be indispensable. The Commissioners recommended in their 29th suggestion, that in the event of a division of the metropolis into municipal districts being made, a Metropolitan Board of Works be created, composed of members deputed to it from the Council of each metropolitan municipal body, including the Common Council of the City. He had endeavoured to frame the measure he had introduced for the local management of the metropolis as closely as possible in accordance with the recommendations of the Commissioners, but he did not mean to say that it was perfect in its details. It would be almost impossible to frame any measure embracing such important objects, and containing no less than 250 clauses, so as to ensure perfection. He had, however, the satisfaction of knowing that, notwithstanding some questions had necessarily arisen, no legal decision, or at all events scarcely a legal decision, had been given contrary to the spirit and intention with which the Legislature adopted that measure, and he thought that circumstance showed that it had been framed with great care. He might be allowed to state what had been his intention and that of the Government when they proposed the measure to which he had referred with respect to the constitution of the Metropolitan Board of Works, and more especially the person who might preside over that body. They were of opinion that he should be a person well acquainted with engineering works, and qualified from his antecedents to supervise their construction, and this was considered essential on introducing the Bill in 1855. He (Sir B. Hall) made use of these words according to the Report— With respect to the chairman, he proposed that the Metropolitan Board of Works should select three names not necessarily from their own body, or from any district board, but that they should have power to select from the whole length and breadth of the kingdom three persons, any one of whom would be fit and proper to occupy the high office he would be called upon to fill and thoroughly qualified to discharge the im- portant functions attendant upon it. These names should be sent to the Secretary of State, and the latter should erase two, the remaining one to be the president of the Metropolitan Board of Works. He proposed that the chairman should be paid a salary of not less than £1,500, and not more than £2,000 a year, and that he should hold office during good behaviour. This body would have power to levy rates for improvements, and also, when necessary, to take land out of their district for the purpose of outfall works, as at present it was not possible to carry out the drainage of the metropolis, because there was no power to make the arterial drains beyond a certain limit. This Board would have power to make intercepting sewers for the purification of the Thames, and would be empowered to borrow money from the Treasury, to be paid within fifty years. Such was the scheme which he proposed, and he wished it had been fully carried out, but it was the pleasure of the House to alter those provisions so far as to empower the Board to elect their own chairman, without any such reference as that proposed which they did by selecting one of their own body, and the House refused permission to obtain money through the Treasury; and it now became necessary to re-insert the latter provision. With respect to the measure before the House it was desirable that the discussion of details should be reserved for Committee; but there was one point to which he was extremely anxious to call attention. In the second clause the points of outfall were defined, and it was provided that, if they discharged the sewage at Barking Creek and a point opposite, they were to deodorize the sewage for six months of the year. He should not now discuss the propriety of fixing these points of outfall so near to the metropolis, but he strongly objected to the proviso added to the clause, which enabled the Board, if they thought fit, to discharge the sewage in any part of the metropolis. It was very true that, if they did this, they were bound to deodorize the sewage throughout the whole year; but the evidence adduced before the Committee, which concluded its sittings that very day, showed that it would be extremely difficult, if not impossible, to establish deodorizing works within the metropolitan area at the outfalls of the various sewers. He hoped, therefore, that if they went into Committee the Government would consider this question, and, before giving the Board power to erect deodorizing and manure works in the densely populated parts of the metropolis, would first ascertain whether the system of deodorization was so perfect as to be capable of application to such a place as London. The works at Leicester had been quoted, but the case of Leicester did not bear any analogy to the metropolis. The works at Leicester were in the open country, not in the town; but this could not be in London, and he thought such a power would be a very dangerous one to entrust to the Board, useless it was strictly guarded so as to prevent the possibility of a nuisance being created in the densely populated portion of the metropolis.

MR. KENDALL

said, Government were blowing hot and cold. He could not understand how the Government could lay claim to activity, when, at the moment the House were willing to give full powers to the Government, they sought to get out of the difficulty by throwing the responsibility on to other shoulders. A Bill had been introduced the effect of which was to grant £3,000,000 for an object respecting which Parliament would have no sort of control or responsibility. But would £3,000,000 be sufficient? The best report ever written on any subject of this kind was that of the referees employed by the late Commissioner of Works, which was characterized by great accuracy and by consummate ability. That report showed that instead of £3,000,000, they might with the greatest safety read £6,000,000, and probably £9,000,000 or £12,000,000 would be much nearer the mark than £3,000,000. With respect to Barking Creek, the evidence adduced before the Committee went to show that they would merely send the sewage there to have it returned to London, and the nuisance would be as bad as ever. As to the Leicester plan, Mr. Cook, who had given his evidence with great clearness and precision, declared that he could erect works which would completely deodorize the sewage in a place of 100,000 inhabitants at a cost of £6,000, and could carry them on for £1,200 a year; and he added, that he was quite sure the plan was applicable to the metropolis, and that he would undertake to establish works for deodorizing the sewage of London at a cost of £100,000, and carry them on for £38,000 a year. He (Mr. Kendall), of course, did not know whether these plans could be carried out, but Mr. Cook was backed up by Mr. Stodart (who was, he believed, known to the noble Member for Tiverton) and by another eminently practical man. He did not wish the House should be under the impression that the Committee had been able to hear one-half of the evidence which might with advantage have been adduced, and he was of opinion that the question under discussion might with advantage be still further considered before any legislation with respect to it should take place.

MR. JOSEPH LOCKE

said, whatever might be his own opinion as to the best plan for carrying out the objects of the Bill, he thought that as this was a Bill for raising money, a Bill much more simple in its details would have answered the purpose. He could, also, bear testimony to the fact that there were many engineers of eminence who maintained that the scheme to which the House was virtually asked to give its assent was not that which it was most expedient to carry into effect, and he might further observe in reference to the expenditure, that some of the engineers and some of the parties examined before the Committee, had coupled with the expenditure for drainage that necessary for works of which the House had at present no knowledge. Those other works, he believed, would be attended with considerable expense, and it was to that he would direct attention. With respect to the system of deodorization which the right hon. Baronet the Member for Marylebone (Sir B. Hall) seemed to think was not calculated to work well, he could only say that some most important witnesses had given it as their opinion, that places where such a process might be put in operation might, without causing inconvenience to the inhabitants of the metropolis, be erected anywhere upon the banks of the Thames. Would it not, then, he would ask, if that were so, be better, instead of expending £3,000,000 in taking down the sewage to Barking Creek, deodorizing it there, and thus abstracting a large quantity of water from that portion of the river which flowed by the metropolis, be better to subject it to the process of deodorization upon the spot? He threw out that suggestion not so much upon the faith of his own opinion upon the subject as upon that of the evidence which had been laid before the Committee; and he might perhaps be permitted in conclusion to observe, that there having been considerable doubts expressed with respect to the success of the proposed scheme, it would be advisable that the Bill before the House should have simply guaranteed the £3,000,000 of money on the credit of the Imperial Exchequer instead of mixing Her Majesty's Ministers up in any manner with any scheme whatsoever. He agreed with the hon. Chairman of the Committee (Mr. Kendall), that they had not yet had suffi- cient evidence to enable them to say which, under all the circumstances, was the best scheme for the perfect drainage of the metropolis

MR. HENLEY

said, that the hon. Member who had just spoken had expressed a wish that the Bill had not indicated any plan, but had simply guaranteed the money. That was exactly what the Bill did. The Bill laid down no specific plan, but left it open to the Metropolitan Board of Works to fix upon such a scheme for the attainment of the end which the measure proposed as they might deem fit. They might construct intercepting sewers or not as they pleased; all the Bill provided being that they should get rid in some way or another of a great nuisance, and that the means of enabling them to do so should be afforded. With respect to the opinion which had been expressed by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Marylebone (Sir B. Hall), to the effect that the process of deodorization should not be resorted to in crowded localities, he need merely remark that, while there was a clause in the Bill giving power to the Board of Works to avail themselves of that process, yet that there was another which provided that no nuisance should be created, and a sufficient security was therefore furnished that no works would be constructed in places surrounded by houses. In reference to the scheme which it might be most expedient to adopt, he was of opinion that the less said the better, inasmuch as that was a point upon which no two hon. Members seemed likely to agree. The simple question seemed to be this. Some two or three years ago Parliament had decided upon intrusting the power of doing this very thing to a local authority. For some cause, however, nothing had been done. Various plans had in the course of the last three years been laid before the public. They had been during that period well thrashed out, but the process simply tended to establish the fact, that no two men could be found to concur in anything. But because no two men could agree in anything, was that a reason why they do nothing? The two chief reasons, he thought, why nothing had been effected by the Metropolitan Board of Works during all that time were, that they had not the power of raising a sufficient amount of money, and that authority to place a veto upon any scheme which they might suggest rested with the Government. When they submitted a plan to the right hon. Baronet the Member for Marylebone, for instance, he at once procured competent men to pronounce an opinion upon it, and when there were competent men upon the side of the one party and of the other they were, as a matter of course, sure to differ. The result had been that one set of competent men had drawn up reasons in opposition to the scheme of the others, and that nothing had been done. The Thames' nuisance had gone on meantime increasing in intensity, until it had at length arrived at such a pitch that it might any fine morning give rise to a pestilence. Now, if we were to wait to remove that nuisance until "competent authorities" should agree Among themselves as to the best mode of carrying that object into effect, it was, he thought, perfectly obvious that we might be called upon to wait till Doomsday. That was the position in which the question stood, and it was in order to obviate all the inconvenience which had in consequence arisen, and to effect something, that the Bill before the House had been introduced. Now, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Oxford (Mr. Gladstone) seemed to object to the term sewage rate as contained in the Bill; but he must remind the right hon. Gentleman that the term was one not unknown to the law of England, and that there were many places in which a similar tax was levied at a higher rate than 3d. in the pound. It was quite obvious, too, he thought, that none of the inconveniences which had been mentioned would result from the imposition of such a rate, inasmuch as its payment would always form a matter of contract between the landlord and the tenant, rendering the one or the other liable to its payment as might be agreed upon between the two parties. Objections had been raised as to the mode in which the Metropolitan Board of Works was elected, and it had been argued that it did not fairly represent the metropolis. The question was discussed about three years ago, and that objection was not then raised, certainly not in the sense in which it was now urged. After what they had heard against the election of councils by large constituencies, he thought it could not be seriously recommended that the Metropolitan Board of Works should be elected by the entire body of ratepayers in London. He was not aware that any objections had been made on the part of the metropolis to the Metropolitan Board of Works being intrusted with the carrying out of the drain- age plans. If the country at large were willing to pay for the works, then the matter might be left to the Queen's Government; but if the country refused to pay, or to assist in paying, for those works, then it ought not to interfere in the construction of them. They had already had some experience in this matter. There could be no doubt that the veto of the Government had brought matters to a dead lock, and with regard to the drainage of other towns, past experience must have taught them that the interference of the Government was neither agreeable nor useful. Therefore, as he believed that whatever scheme might be adopted, it would tend to abate the nuisance which now existed, and as delay would not advance their acquaintance with the subject, he hoped the House would consent to proceed with the Bill as speedily as possible.

MR. STEPHENSON

thought the noble Lord (Lord J. Manners) would not have said the subject of the drainage of London was thoroughly threshed out had he been so long occupied in considering it as he (Mr. Stephenson) had been. About eight years since he became a member of the Metropolitan Sewers Commission, and commenced an earnest and continuous study of the difficult question of the sewage of London and the best means of disposing of it. He acted in conjunction with some very able men, and formed an opinion which, although it had undergone some modification since that time, had not been essentially changed. He was called upon at that time to examine 150 different plans which had been sent in by various individuals, in compliance with the advertisements of a previous Commission, which presented every possible variety of scheme for the drainage of London. These plans he studied with great care and considerable anxiety, and came to the conclusion that nothing would effectually meet the evil but an intercepting system. The right hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Lowe) had objected that that system was not adapted to any increase in the population of London beyond three millions and a half; but nothing more inappropriate than that objection could be conceived. The intercepting system divided the sewers of London as they at present existed into a series of zones each intercepting sewer would deal with the zone immediately above it; and, therefore, any extension of London would only require the construction of a new intercepting sewer for each additional zone without interfering with anything that had been done in the interior of the metropolis. One of the chief recommendations of the intercepting plan was its capability of expansion without involving any interference with the existing drainage. Upon the occasion to which he had referred, after the 150 plans had been examined, plans were drawn up with great care and referred to Government; but when it came to obtaining money for carrying them out it was found that the hands of the Commissioners were tied, and the Government disregarded their applications. Therefore, as the minor sewerage of the metropolis could be constructed under the ordinary superintendence, the Commission resigned. A new Commission was subsequently formed, comprising many eminent men of his own profession, who, after deliberation, came to the same conclusion as he had; and their having done so, without any communication with him, was another strong argument in favour of the intercepting system. This Commission also failed, because the Government refused every application for money. The noble Lord the Member for Tiverton sent them a letter, very brief and very dictatorial, stating that the Commission ought to carry out the scheme of a gentleman recommended by himself. That led to the resignation of the Commissioners. They could not carry it out, and they felt it would be absurd to identify themselves with such a scheme. Objections had been taken to the Metropolitan Board of Works as the body to execute the proposed works, but he could not see the justice of the objection. What other body possessed the information necessary for the performance of such a task. Any other body must acquire and rearrange all the information of which the Metropolitan Board of Works were now in possession. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman who spoke last in doubting the advantage that would arise from any interference on the part of the Government. The House was arguing in ignorance of the course which this question had taken. If they were to recommence the argument five years hence the debate would assume precisely the same character as it did at present. The right hon. Member for Oxford University (Mr. Gladstone) seemed to object to the mode of levying the tax, as falling unfairly upon lessees and occupiers, and proposed that proprietors themselves should be taxed. But when a bargain was made it must hold, or in cases where the lessees derived a doubled or tripled advantage there must be a rearrangement of terms. Those were matters that could not be dealt with by Parliament in legislating upon a matter of this description. He hoped the House would decide in favour of the Bill, unless they intended to postpone legislation altogether, and leave things just as they were. He did not think any one would agree to that. If the intercepting system was not absolutely a perfect system, yet still it would be better to adopt a plan that would do some good than to allow another year to pass away without doing anything to remove the existing evils. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) said that the Bill did not bind the Board of Works to any particular plan; but he apprehended that that House ought not to advance money unless they knew for what it was advancing it. As a man of experience, he advised the House to insist upon a considerable portion of the intercepting system being adopted, and recommended that the work should be commenced by the construction of the high level sewer for the interception of the storm waters.

MR. LOWE

explained that he had not said that a system of intercepting sewers would necessarily be limited to any amount of population, but that the plan of the Board of Works, which he understood was to be carried out under this Bill, was professedly limited to a population of 3,500,000.

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

said, that having sat upon the Commission of Sewers which succeeded that of which the hon. Member for Whitby (Mr. Stephenson) was a Member, he could confirm the statement of that hon. Gentleman as to the labours of these Commissions. He might also add that the majority of the Commission of which he was a Member agreed with its predecessor in preferring the system of intercepting sewers to any other which had been devised. He thought that it would be well to begin with the high level sewer in order to get rid of the storm water. If they waited for any further inquiry, then, after all the delay which might arise, they would only come back to the point at which they had already arrived. Although the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Henley) said that there was nothing in this Bill which bound the Government to any plan, he thought that the first clause bound them to the adoption of the system of intercepting sewers, and that was one reason why he should support it. He was also pleased to hear from the right hon. Gentleman that no works would be put where they would be a nuisance; but who was to determine what was a nuisance? That point ought not to be left in doubt. With regard to deodorization, he reminded the House that though Mr. Cooke, of Leicester, who gave evidence upon that subject, was undoubtedly a man of great intelligence, he was the chairman of a company which was very anxious to sell the produce of deodorizing works of which they had hitherto been unable to dispose. The only fear he had with regard to the Bill was its giving power to the Metropolitan Board of Works to have the outfalls within the metropolitan area. It was hardly fair that although, if the outfalls were within limits of the metropolis, the sewage was to be deodorized all the year, if they were just without, that process was insisted upon during only six months. He should, however, vote for the second reading of the Bill, because it removed the great difficulty under which the Board of Works had hitherto laboured—that of obtaining money; and he hoped that in Committee provision would be made that the outfalls of the sewers should not be within the metropolitan area.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

said, that having been one of the Commissioners upon whose Report the constitution of the Board of Works was mainly founded, he was anxious to say a few words before this Bill was read a second time. The principle of this measure he understood to be that this great work should be executed not by the Government, or by a Board appointed by the Government, but by the Metropolitan Board of Works. To that principle be gave his unhesitating assent. The Government were undoubtedly right; and if they had acted upon a different principle they must have been prepared to ask that House to furnish funds for executing the work; but having proceeded upon that principle they had rightly cast upon the metropolitan rate-payers the duty of providing the funds. They had, he thought, gone quite as far as could be expected in giving a guarantee for all the money which it was said would be required for the work. There was one provision with regard to the guarantee to which he entertained a strong objection; he meant that by which the Government took power to appoint a superintending inspector. He viewed with the greatest jealousy the imposing upon the Government any responsibility, or giving them any power of interfering with the local authorities, which if the plan was unsuccessful, if mistakes were made in carrying it into effect, or if the funds were insufficient, would justify those authorities in saying to the Executive, "You, by your inspector, had had cognizance of what was going on, you tacitly approved our proceedings, and you are therefore bound to share with us the loss which has been incurred." He trusted that the Government would not take upon itself any more responsibility than was absolutely necessary for the protection of the guarantee which the State was to give. Having assented to the principle of the measure, he must add that the Bill upon the face of it seemed to be inconsistent with the statement which had just been made by the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Henley). That right hon. Gentleman said that it would be competent to the Metropolitan Board of Works to adopt any plan they might think fit, that the Government would not be responsible for the adoption of any plan or the preference of any one practical principle over another.

MR. HENLEY

What he said was, that the Government were not bound to any particular plan, and that it was quite open to the Board of Works to carry out any plan they thought fit, but he made no reference to principles.

SIR GEORGE LEWIS

understood that the Government had expressed no opinion in favour of any plan, and that it was quite open to the Board of Works to adopt any one they pleased. If that was the case, why was the House called upon to assent to this precise sum of £3,000,000? How did they know that £3,000,000 would be adequate to carry out a scheme which perhaps had yet to be conceived, and which was certainly at present unknown? How was it known that a rate of 3d. in the pound for forty years would be sufficient to defray the cost of these works? If it was true that no plan had been selected—if the field of choice were quite open—how did they know that the Board of Works might not fix upon some scheme which would require the expenditure of £5,000,000 or £6,000,000 to carry it out? One of two things—either the Board of Works had fixed upon some plan, and the Government, adopting and approving it, had proposed this £3,000,000 as the sum which it was thought would be required for its execution; or this £3,000,000 was a mere guess—any other amount might as well have been inserted in the Bill—and the House had no security whatever that when a portion of these works had been completed that amount would not be found to be insufficient, and they would be called upon to guarantee a further loan. This was his only difficulty in assenting to the second reading of this Bill; and, if it received a satisfactory explanation, he should, without hesitation, consent to the measure passing that stage.

MR. JOHN LOCKE

remarked, that if the difficulty he felt at the bringing in of the Bill was great, it was much greater now that he had the measure before him. The Government said that they had no plan at all, but the Bill contained regulations as to the point of outfall. Did that foreshadow a plan or not? If they had a deodorizing plan, no stipulation as to the point of outfall would he necessary. It was clear, therefore, that the Government must have some plan, or must, at all events, have decided upon the principle to be adopted. The House had heard the speeches of the hon. Members for Whitby and Honiton (Mr. Stephenson and Mr. Joseph Locke) than whom it would be impossible to consult higher authorities; but the opinions expressed by those hon. Gentlemen had only added to the perplexities by which Parliament was surrounded. The hon. Member for Honiton's bias was clearly in favour of deodorization; but the other hon. Gentleman was decidedly against that plan.

MR. STEPHENSON

said, he was not opposed to the deodorizing system. He was only opposed to relying for the drainage of the metropolis upon deodorization. He quite admitted that some parts of the metropolis could not be drained except by deodorization.

MR. JOHN LOCKE

resumed: When doctors differed in this way the House was placed in a most unfortunate position. He had certainly understood that the hon. Gentleman's plan was the zonal system. The hon. Gentleman would divide the metropolis into zones, and he understood from his evidence that he was against adopting the plan of deodorization for London. They were called to guarantee £3,000,000 for nobody knew what. The Government said that they had no system, and that the Board of Works might do what they liked, and still the Government had shadowed out a system of intercepting drains. He regretted that although the sewage might be put in a state of solution, the question of the drainage of the metropolis did not appear to be capable of solution. They were called upon to legislate in the dark. The supporters of the Bill did not seem to have a definite idea of what they were supporting. However, it was not for him, after the speeches of the hon. Members for Westminster and Marylebone, to oppose the second reading of the Bill, though he had no hope that it would be sufficiently altered and amended in Committee.

VISCOUNT EBRINGTON

said, he would not enter upon any of the engineering questions that had been alluded to. He disclaimed any notion of being enamoured of this Bill, which was founded on no clear principle. It neither threw the entire responsibility of the drainage of the metropolis upon the Metropolitan Board of Works, nor, on the other hand, did the Government undertake the responsibility of dealing with the question. They proposed to appoint an inspector—they laid down conditions as to the principle of drainage and the point of outfall, and they limited the guarantee to £3,000,000, but they assumed no direct responsibility for the works to be carried out. He had, for his own part, no confidence in the Metropolitan Board of Works. He believed that the landowners of the metropolis were inadequately represented in that body. It was composed of too large a number of members, and from its unwieldly size was unequal to carry out such large and extensive works as the drainage of the metropolis; and he would submit to the Government that, as it would be only fair that the State should, in fairness, contribute something to metropolitan works, so the Government should undertake the responsibility of nominating a smaller and more working body than this large representative council, under whose auspices there would be greater reason to hope for a speedy and economical solution of the present difficulty. He repeated that he was not sanguine respecting the well-working of the present measure, while the Government, who brought it in, would be held responsible by the inhabitants of the metropolis for the failure of the measure, if that failure should afterwards be found, as he felt it would, both signal and costly.

MR. CLAY

said, in his ignorance of engineering science—an ignorance shared by most of those present—he thought the duty of the House on this occasion was confined to a very simple point. All that the House had to determine was, whether it was worth while to expend a large sum of money to remove the nuisance of draining into the Thames, whether the work should be undertaken immediately, by whom the money was to be paid, and in what way the work was to be carried out. It appeared to him that those points were settled by the Bill before the House. The right hon. Member for Oxford University seemed to think that the Members of that House were legislating under the pressure of a bad smell, and that they reasoned as they appeared disposed to pay, through the nose. He agreed with the right hon. Gentleman that the matter should be further considered, not, however, by the engineering capacity of the House of Commons, as they had that evening shown their own incapacity for doing so. There was no body more capable of doing so than the body they had themselves created for that purpose. It had been complained that that body had done little or nothing. They had, however, accumulated a large mass of useful and necessary information on the subject, and if they had done little the fault lay with the House of Commons, which declined to give them the necessary power, and then shackled them with the Government veto. If proper power had been lodged in the proper hands, this work would have been undertaken long since. The future consideration which the right hon. Member for Oxford University had spoken of, should be given by the body charged to carry out this measure. If they should prove incapable, he believed it would be because the thing could not be done. He should give his cordial support to the Bill.

MR. PULLER

said, he agreed that if the Metropolitan Board of Works had hitherto proved a failure it was because Parliament had not entrusted it with sufficient powers. He thought that the Government were entitled to the thanks of the House for grappling with a subject of enormous difficulty, but he thought that they had produced the wrong measure. At the same time he must deny that the charge of inaction could justly be brought against the House of Commons if they did not sanction the present Bill. That House was not the proper or a competent authority to decide on the value of competing schemes, and therefore, he must protest against any attempt to throw upon them the responsibility of the question. The Bill in effect said, that the plan of Mr. Bazalgette and of the Metropolitan Board of Works should be carried out. Now, that scheme professed to be capable of being carried out for £3,000,000, but to require an annual expenditure of £150,000. The scheme of the Government referees would require for its execution five or six millions. When, therefore, the Government proposed to lend the Metropolitan Board of Works £3,000,000, it was clearly implied that the cheaper but less comprehensive scheme was to be carried out. If, at the end of a few years, the Metropolitan Board of Works came to Parliament for a larger advance and were met with a proposal to lay an increased rate on the metropolis, they would reply that the Government had forced them into the adoption of a bad plan, and that they ought, therefore, to defray the additional outlay thus rendered necessary out of the Consolidated Fund. For these reasons he should move that the Bill be read a second time that day six months.

The Amendment, for want of a seconder, fell to the ground.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, he hoped that the House would agree to the second reading of the Bill, because its rejection would postpone to an indefinite period the possibility of applying a remedy to an evil the magnitude of which it was almost impossible to exaggerate. He spoke not merely of that evil which the members of that House had in their persons recently experienced, but of the more general and growing evil which arose from the pollution of the waters of the Thames; for, in proportion as the metropolis increased and drew a larger supply of water for its requirements from the Upper Thames, in the same proportion the Thames became from year to year nothing but a great sewer, and like a sewer stank, and would be the source of disease and pestilence. Therefore it was a matter of the utmost importance to prevent for the future the discharge of the sewage into the Thames. He knew that many people said that no doubt it was disagreeable to smell this stench, and that persons were sometimes made sick by it, and were unable to eat white-bait dinners when they went down to Greenwich. He hoped that the members of the Government would not be so situated on Saturday next. Nevertheless, there had been no great amount of disease, for, fortunately, there had been no epidemic in London; but, if there had been the cholera at the time this stench arose, would any man say that it would not have aggravated to an intense degree the disorder? Hon. Gentlemen were not aware of the amount of misery and suffering endured by a large proportion of the population of this great metropolis from the imperfect drainage of the localities in which they resided. When he was at the Home Office it was his lot to hear from persons who resided north of the Thames, in the neighbourhood of Hackney Brook, descriptions of the sufferings they endured from the stench which arose from the sewer, and also from the flooding of their dwellings when there was a heavy fall of rain. On the southern shore of the Thames, also, there was a vast population living in a district where there was no drainage at all, and where there was no outfall, except during a very short period at low water. Whenever there was a heavy fall of rain the sewers of that district were inundated; abominations of all kinds were driven back from the sewers into the basement stories of the houses, and an amount of suffering and discomfort was caused of which hon. Gentlemen who had not received communications from those who had endured it could form no conception. These evils could not be cured by deodorizing tanks, which required great outfall tunnels. Hon. Gentlemen must not imagine that there was any remedy for the great evils now experienced in the metropolis, except from intercepting sewers communicating with tunnels which would carry the drainage down to some lower level of the Thames. He confessed he thought the Bill was defective with regard to the subject of intercepting tunnels. In his opinion Barking Creek and the opposite shore were too near the metropolis, and money expended in carrying tunnels to those points would, to a certain extent, be thrown away. Complete relief would not be afforded to the metropolis by the expenditure of 3,000,000; and if tunnels were constructed to Barking Creek the Metropolitan Board of Works would have to come to Parliament and say, "You sanctioned this work, but by limiting the expenditure you forced us to adopt a plan which is essentially and radically defective, and therefore, on the part of the public, we call upon you to assist us by grants of public money to carry the sewerage to another point, in order to accomplish the object we wish to effect." He thought, therefore, it was most unfortunate that the Government should persist—if they meant to do so—in limiting the outfall of the intercepting tunnels to a point so near the metropolis as Barking Creek and the opposite side of the river. There was another point not immediately entering into the arrangements of the Bill, but to which he must express his hope that the attention of the Metropolitan Board of Works would be speedily and successfully directed; the possibility of converting to agricultural purposes, as manure, the vast amount of matter which was now discharged into the Thames. There could be no doubt that, if the proposed system were carried out, a great quantity of fertilizing matter would be thrown into the stream of the Thames, with the view of being carried out to sea. It must be admitted that hitherto no process had been suggested by which that fertilizing matter could advantageously and profitably be applied to b agricultural purposes, beyond a very narrow limit of space, but he entertained a hope that before long some practical mode might be discovered by scientific scientific chemists of converting into a source of great national wealth the matter which it was now proposed to throw into the waters of the German Ocean. He trusted that the House would assent to the second reading of the Bill, and that Her Majesty's Government would attend to the suggestions which had been made with reference to the modification of some of its clauses.

MR. COX

said, that as a metropolitan Member, representing a district, the residents in which would have to pay a very large proportion of the rate, he wished to say a few words with respect to this Bill, although he did not mean to oppose the second reading. He thought that a revision of the area of rating was absolutely required, because under the Metropolitan Local Management Act very extensive districts in the neighbourhood of the metropolis derived benefit from the existing law, and would enjoy the advantages of the Bill before the House, although they were entirely exempted from any rate. He did not wish to mention any particular districts, but he might state, that in the neighbourhood in which he resided there was a very large parish, the sewage from which passed through the metropolitan district, and was discharged into the Thames, but which, not being comprised within the metropolitan area, was entirely exempted from rating. He believed also that the Bill, in its present form, might lead to disputes between the Metropolitan Board of Works and the Commission of Conservancy of the Thames with regard to the mode of dealing with the foreshore; but that was a point which might be more conveniently considered in Committee.

GENERAL CODRINGTON

said, that in his opinion the only chance of anything being done was to allow the second reading to take place, and make the requisite alterations in Committee. He would, however, suggest, that as the Bill proposed the appointment by the Treasury of an engineer to control the expenditure of money upon the works, and he would suggest that the appointment of a Government inspector to prevent the creation and continuance of nuisances would be attended with great advantage. He must also object to the proposed plan of sewage, on the ground that, owing to the proximity of Woolwich to the point of outfall, the tide might carry the sewage to that town. This, he thought, would not be unattended with danger.

MR. BUTLER

Said, he deemed it most unfair that his constituents and the heavily taxed ratepayers of the metropolis should alone bear the enormous cost of purifying the Thames—the principle was a just one, that those who contributed to foul the waters of the Thames should be rated for its purification. Why, for instance, should not the inhabitants of Richmond, Brentford, and other districts bear a fair proportion of that rate? In his opinion, the area of rating prescribed by the Metropolitan Local Management Act was most unjust, and he hoped the injustice would be remedied in Committee.

Bill read 2^o, and committed for Wednesday.