COMMITTEE.

HC Deb 14 July 1858 vol 151 cc1437-46

Order for Committee read.

MR. KINNAIRD

said, he had to complain that the Charitable Trust Continuance Act had been read a second time last night before the Bill itself was printed, and notwithstanding the arrangement that no opposed business was to be taken after midnight. He had intended to address the House on the subject, and he must say he was surprised to see by the Votes that the Bill had actually been read a second time before it was printed. He now begged to give notice that on the question of going into Committee, he should move as an Amendment that Mr. Speaker do not leave the Chair for three months. [A Laugh.]

MR. SPOONER

said, that he had another ground of complaint on this subject, namely, that the Bill was not properly described on the paper,

LORD JOHN MANNERS

said, the Bill in question was a mere continuance Bill, and the Government had no reason to suppose that any objection would be taken to it, especially since they had expressed their determination to consider, during the recess, the best means of arriving at a permanent settlement of charitable trusts.

House in Committee. Mr. FITZROY in the Chair.

(1.) £111,429, New Bridge at Westminster.

MR. BENTINCK

satd, he understood that the amount proposed to be voted would be refunded by the sale of the bridge estate, which was likely to realise a very large sum. The transaction, so far, therefore, appeared to be an equitable one that could not be objected to. But he gathered from the Estimate he held in his hand that next year the House would be called upon to vote £96,021 for the completion of the new bridge, and that there were no funds out of which the money could be replaced in the public treasury. It was only fair to give notice, therefore, that when the House was called upon to vote that additional sum for the completion of the bridge out of the public purse, he should be prepared to give it his most determined opposition.

Vote agreed to; as were also the two following Votes:—

(2.) £1,500, Windsor Castle.

(3.) £70,000, Court of Probate, &c.

(4.) £19,296 British Embassy House at Paris,

MR. BYNG

said, that some explanation was necessary with regard to this Vote, before the Committee could be called upon to give it its sanction.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

said, that the attention of the House was called to the Vote a few days ago by Mr. Wise, who requested that the correspondence in reference to the subject should be laid upon the table. He (Mr. Hamilton) had at once moved for the production of the correspondence; but he was sorry to say, that it was not yet out of the printer's hands. There could be no doubt that the expenses incurred for the Ambassador's residence at Paris had been enormous; but unfortunately the state of the house was such, that unless something was done to put it in repair, there was a danger that the country would have to incur an expenditure infinitely larger than that which had already been made. The amount now asked for was the very least, and there was no use in disguising the fact, for which the house could be put in repair. His noble Friend the First Commissioner of Works had taken every care that the money should not, as in past years, be misapplied; and he trusted the result would be to put the premises in thorough and permanent repair, and that Parliament would not be again called on for the very extravagant Votes which had hitherto been proposed for the purpose.

MR. WHITE

said, that if he had the smallest encouragement given him, he should be inclined to divide the Committee against this Vote. He looked upon the Vote as a part of the lavish expenditure which was characteristic of the late Government, and especially of the foreign department of that Government. He understood that the Embassy House, at Paris, might be sold for about £120,000; and he submitted to Her Majesty's Government whether it would not be preferable, instead of asking the Committee for this Vote, to sell the house and grounds, and follow the example of the French Government, in the case of its representative in London, by renting a house for our Ambassador at Paris at £4,000 or £5,000 a year. We had already expended more than £l00,000 upon the Embassy House in Paris within a few years; and he did not see that there was any guarantee that the present Vote of £19,296 if agreed to, would be sufficient to place it in complete order. Judging by past experience, he feared the Vote would be only the prelude to still larger disbursements on the part of this House.

LORD JOHN MANNERS

said that, as far as high professional character could be a guarantee, the Government had every security that the present Vote would cover the whole of the expense for the repairs put down in detail in the enormous volume he held in his hand. The hon. Gentleman proposed that a mansion should be rented for the embassy, but the Government were already in possession of a house with grounds, in a convenient spot, adapted for the object, and it was important that the residence of the English Ambassador at Paris should be on a scale commensurate with the dignity of the great country he represented. He hoped that the Committee would support the Vote, which he confidently expected would be the last of the sort.

MR. P. O'BRIEN

suggested that it would be better to postpone the consideration of the Vote until the Committee was in possession of further information, and until the right hon. Baronet the late Chief Commissioner of Works was in the House. He also thought the plans and estimates of the French architect ought to be submitted to the Committee, so that hon. Members might refer to them and judge for themselves.

MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALD

remarked, that he did not consider that if the suggestion were acted upon, hon. Members would be more competent to decide the question than they were at present. Besides, the details which the hon. Member desired to have placed in the library were so very minute that he did not believe that many Members would go there to consult them. There was no doubt that the expenditure for the Embassy House at Paris had been enormous; but at present, from the manner in which it had been built, the walls were very insecure, and dry rot was in the timber work. It was obvious, therefore, that to put such a large building in perfect repair would necessarily require a considerable outlay of money.

With regard to the recommendation of the hon. Member for Plymouth (Mr. White) that the House should be sold and the Embassy removed to another quarter of Paris, where it might rent a house at £4,000 or £5,000 a year, he thought any such measure as that would prove most inconvenient to English residents and visitors to Paris. He could assure the Committee that the estimate had been most carefully considered; that nothing was contained in it which was not absolutely necessary; and the outlay would be made under the advice of the most competent architects the Government could send from this country, and the most eminent persons they could select in France. Under these circumstances he trusted the Committee would agree to this, the last Vote that would be required for the purpose.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he wished to remind the Committee that similar expectations had been indulged in many years ago and similar promises made of retrenchment; upwards of £130,000 had been expended on this house, and there was still a demand for additional money. He was sorry to hear that there were seventeen additional Votes in the present group of Estimates, and this was done in the face of a deficient income and a certain loss of £1,500,000 in the property and income tax.

MR. BRAMLEY-MOORE

wished to know from the noble Lord the Chief Commissioner of Works, whether he had taken any tenders respecting the expense to be incurred in the renovation of the premises; because he must say, that he had no confidence whatever in the Estimates. He was quite sure, unless some precautions of that kind were taken, the House would by and-bye be asked for a supplemental Vote.

LORD JOHN MANNERS

said, he should have greatly exceeded his duty, if before the House had sanctioned the Vote he had called for tenders. He begged to assure the hon. Gentleman that the Government had taken every security fur the estimate being a bonâ fide one.

MR. CONINGHAM

said, he was convinced that the £19,000 now asked for would turn out to be a mere instalment, and that in the end the patience of the House would be quite exhausted, and these Votes be indignantly rejected.

MR. BRAMLEY-MOORE

said, it was no unusual thing, when Estimates of this sort were prepared, for the architect to state that parties were ready to undertake the execution of the work at the sum he mentioned.

MR. CHEETHAM

said, that the French Ambassador in London only paid £1,000 a year rent for his embassy, and that it was now proposed that we should pay something like £6,000 a year, that sum representing the interest on £120,000 which the building had cost.

MR. HUDSON

said, that the rental of the French Embassy in London was considerably more than £1,000 or £1,500 a year. He granted, however, that the repairs of the British Embassy house in Paris came to a very serious sum. Still the property was eligibly situated, and he thought something might be done to reduce the annual expense.

MR. CLAY

said, that from what he knew of Paris it would be impossible for us to get a similar building as that which we now had for £6,000 a year. It was no uncommon thing for the owner of a hotel in Paris to realize £8,000 a year by letting it out in flats from the basement to the roof. He presumed it was not intended that our Ambassador should live in a flat!

MR. BYNG

asked, whether any opinion had been given by the architects on the point whether it would not be cheaper to pull down the Embassy house and rebuild it, rather than patch it up as proposed?

LORD JOHN MANNERS

replied, that the papers on the subject were now in the hands of the printer.

MR. P. O'BRIEN

thought that was a reason for postponing the Vote.

Motion made and Question put,— That a sum, not exceeding £19,296, be granted to Her Majesty, for the repairs and restoration of the British Embassy House at Paris, and for additional Fittings and Furniture, to the 31st day of March, 1859.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 113; Noes 51: Majority 62.

Vote agreed to.

(5.) £13,000, New Consular Office at Constantinople.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

objected to the Vote. There were very few British sailors who went to Constantinople.

MR. SEYMOUR FITZGERALD

stated that the best proof of the value of the hospital was to be found in the fact that in the year 1856 upwards of 2,000 British seamen were received into it.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, that was in consequence of the Russian war, and was no proof of an increasing trade in that part of the world.

Vote agreed to.

(6.) £1,092, Sir Henry Havelock's Statue, &c.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

explained that hitherto, when monuments had been erected at the public expense, it had been usual for the Treasury to make a grant of metal for the purpose from the old stores. As those stores were, however, the property of the country, it had been thought more regular that a Vote should be proposed in Committee of Supply for the purchase of the metal required from the old stores. Since this Vote was inserted in the Estimates a similar application had been made to the Treasury for a certain quantity of old gun metal to be used for a monument in memory of General Neill, and he wished to state that if the application had been received in time the amount required would have been added to this Vote.

Vote agreed to.

(7.) £3,000, Major General Chesney.

MR. RIDLEY

said, the work to which the Vote referred was probably of great value, but he wished to know why the country should be called upon to defray the loss upon its publication.

MR. WHITE

said, he thought hon. Members were taxed somewhat beyond the limit of Parliamentary endurance when they were asked for £3,000 to reimburse a gentleman for having written a very dull book. He had the book with him. It purported to be a history of the Euphrates expedition, but it was in fact a work of a most encyclopædic character, and treated upon almost every topic under the sun except the one it pretended to treat of. If the matter relating to the expedition had been put into small compass, the work would have been very valuable, but the consequence of a premium from the national purse was that General Chesney had already inflicted two thick volumes upon the public, and two more were threatened. He would appeal to the Government against the Vote, a Government which had among its members men, at all events, who did not write dull books. He begged to move that the Vote be expunged.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

said, whatever the merits of the work might be, General Chesney had been instructed by the Government to undertake its publication, and it would be most unjust that any loss sustained upon the sale should be thrown upon him. The work had not been profitable as a commercial speculation, and the loss actually sustained by General Chesney had been £4,300. The late Government had proposed that this loss should be shared between the Treasury and the East India Company, but the Company denied that they had incurred any liability in connection with the publication; and after looking carefully through the papers on the subject he must say there was great ambiguity as to the arrangements between the Company and the Government. The East India Company, however, agreed to contribute £1,000 towards reimbursing General Chesney, on the understanding that Her Majesty's Government would contribute £3,000, but even under this arrangement General Chesney would still be a loser.

SIR HENRY RAWLINSON

said, that General Chesney's mistake had been, that he had devoted the first two volumes to the most uninteresting portion of the work, reserving that which was really interesting and useful to be published hereafter. If he had published the results of the Euphrates expedition in the first part of the work, placing what he had published in an appendix, there could have been no ground of complaint. They ought to have an assurance that the useful part of the work would be forthcoming before they voted this money.

MR. WHITE

observed, that the results of the expedition, so far as they were interesting and useful, had been already communicated to Parliament in General Chesney's Official Report.

MR. WHITESIDE

defended the Vote. The work involved a very large expenditure, which General Chesney had to guarantee. The Vote was a simple act of justice.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, that this was the first time the House had ever been called upon to put their hands into the pockets of the country in order to remunerate an unfortunate author.

THE CHANCELLOR OF TEE EXCHEQUER

denied that it was the case of an unfortunate author. It was the case of an unfortunate publisher, and that publisher was the Government of the country.

Vote agreed to.

(8.) £5,000, Newhaven Harbour.

MR. RIDLEY

objected to the Vote while the general Report on Harbours of Refuge had not yet been received.

MR. CORRY

said, this harbour stood on a different footing from all other harbours. It was the only one on the coast, and it would hardly, at present, admit of a gun-boat at low water. This small ex- pense would increase the water by several feet.

SIR GEORGE PECHELL

said, this was the most important harbour on that part of the coast, and he hoped the Committee would not grudge the money.

Loan HARRY VANE

said, he thought the explanation of the Secretary to the Admiralty was a satisfactory one, though lat first he was startled at finding such a Vote proposed under the present circumstances of harbours of refuge.

Vote agreed to, as was also

(9.) £1,500, British North American Expedition.

(10.) £6,479, General Board of Health.

MR. ADDERLEY

stated that this was a reduced Estimate, the Estimate in the Votes being for a sum of £7,400. The Estimate for 1857–8 was £11,125, but by the omission of the President's and one Inspector's salaries the Estimate for 1858–9 had been reduced to £7,400. He now proposed still further to reduce the Vote by omitting the salaries of two Inspectors, the Assistant Secretary, and the Surveyor, and the amount, therefore, which he now asked the Committee to vote was £6,479.

MR. COX

said, he must object to being called upon to adopt the Vote until the details were printed and in the hands of the Committee.

MR. ADDERLEY

said, the details were contained in the Estimate, and he merely proposed to omit the items he had mentioned; but the amended Estimate would be printed and in the hands of hon. Members to-morrow.

MR. CONINGHAM

expressed his wish that greater vitality could be infused into the Board of Health. He could bear testimony to the merits of Mr. Simon, the medical officer, but the Board had not displayed the energy and activity which might have been expected from them.

Vote agreed to.

(11.) Motion made and Question proposed,— That a sum, not exceeding £50,000, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum necessary to defray tin charge of Civil Contingencies, to the 31st day a March, 1859.

SIR FRANCIS BARING

said, it might be supposed that this was the whole amount which would be at the disposal of the Treasury for civil contingencies during the next year; but that was not the case. The Committee appointed two years ago to inquire into the Estimates found that there was then a cash balance in the hands of the Treasury of about £100,000, besides an amount of about £150,000 on loans. Some of these loans, however, bad been out so long that they were doubtless irrecoverable, and might be regarded rather as grants than as loans. He must protest against this Vote unless the Committee were informed what was the balance in the Treasury, which he imagined must have been considerably reduced during the past year, and what expectation there was that the advances on loan would be repaid. He thought the whole principle was wrong of voting year after year £100,000, when the expenditure did not come up to that sum, while this year it was the same sum, though the expenditure of last year was much more than £100,000.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

said, this question was one which had received attentive consideration from the Committee on the Estimates, and his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated that it was his intention to introduce a measure on the subject in consequence of their report. There had been last year some extraordinary and unforeseen expenses, and the excess had necessarily been defrayed from the balances of former years, the consequence being that the unexpended balance under the head of "Civil Contingencies" at the expiration of the year did not amount to more than £11,000.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he would take this opportunity of denouncing the system which allowed an official to involve us in the enormous difficulty of a war with China. He hoped the present Government would get them out of that difficulty as soon as possible, otherwise he did not know what might be the consequences. He must also complain of the expense incurred in the Commission for settling the boundaries between Turkey and Persia, with which we had nothing whatever to do. Then there were most extravagant outfits for sending officials to various parts of the world. It would be much better to give those persons a sum of money and let them provide for themselves. No less than £5,000 were charged in the Vote for the services of police in order to protect camps—that was to say, police hired to protect soldiers. Was ever such a thing heard of—policemen protecting soldiers! There was only a charge of £1,843 paid to Lord Chelmsford for assuming the office for which he received £10,000 a year, and was very glad to obtain. Both these were charges which he hoped would be discontinued.

Yesterday they had voted £1,800 for the Law Commission, and now they were asked for a further sum of £2,337. He moved the reduction of the Vote by the latter sum.

Motion made, and Question, That the item of £2,337 10s., for services rendered to the Statute Law Commissioners, be omitted from the proposed Vote,

put, and negatived.

MR. CONINGHAM

said, he must complain of the large amount (£10,109) charged under the head of "expenses incurred on account of the embassy from the King of Siam in this country."

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

acknowledged that the expenditure was a large one, but it was deemed expedient to encourage the relations between this country and Siam, and the effect already produced had been highly satisfactory. The trade with Siam had received an astonishing development since the treaty, and Sir J. Bowring, on the 5th of April, 1857, wrote that, whereas during the fifteen years preceding the treaty the average number of vessels annually engaged in this trade was but twelve, no fewer than 200 vessels had since obtained lucrative employment.

MR. LYGON

said, he wished to call attention to the bill of £54 2s. ld. for newspapers, &c., supplied to Lord J. Russell during the period his Lordship retained a seat in the Cabinet without office in 1854 and 1855. Of cource it was very requisite that public men should see the newspapers; but this charge seemed excessive.

MR. G. A. HAMILTON

said, he did not think the charge an extravagant one. It was very important that a Cabinet Minister should be well informed of what was going on in the country.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he would remind the Committee that the noble Lord had served in the Cabinet at the period alluded to without any salary.

Original Question put, and agreed to.

House resumed.

Resolutions to be reported To-morrow Committee to sit again To morrow at Twelve o'clock.