HC Deb 07 July 1858 vol 151 cc1067-9

Order for Committee read.

House in Committee.

Clause 1 and 2 agreed to.

Clause 3.


said, he bad great objections to this clause. It contained taxing powers of a grievous kind, while it was understood, when the Bill was introduced, there should be no taxing powers taken. Many of his constituents who were favourable to such schools objected to their being supported by a rate. The Protestants of Ireland had no wish to tax the people for such a purpose. They considered the schools should be maintained by subscriptions. By this clause, town councils would be able to raise a rate for the maintenance of the schools. The Protestants of Ireland had no desire to see large schools opened at their expense for teaching the children of one sect.


said, that the clause objected to fell far short of the clause in the English Act. The buildings must be erected by private contributions, but the inmates were to be maintained by a rate, as they would have been if they were inmates of gaols. He would also remind the hon. Member that Protestants were represented on the grand juries.


replied that Protestants were not adequately represented in the town councils.

Motion made and Question put, "That Clause 3 stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 157; Noes 41: Majority 116.

Clause agreed to.

Clauses 4, 5, and 6 were also agreed to.

Clause 7.


proposed, to leave out from the beginning of Clause 7 to the word "then," in line 28, and insert Whenever after the passing of this Act, any person shall be convicted of any offence punishable by law, (except the offence of vagrancy) before any Judge of assize or Judges sitting under a Commission of oyer and terminer, or before any Court of quarter sessions, or before the divisional justices of the metropolitan police district, or before any justices of the peace at petty sessions, under the provision of the sixth section of the 'Summary Jurisdiction (Ireland) Act, 1851,' whose age shall not, in the opinion of such Judge or Court, exceed the age of sixteen years then.


did not object to the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.


said, he wished to move the insertion of words to limit the operation of the Act to offences which were not first offences.

Amendment proposed,— In page 3, line 28, to insert "who shall, previously to such conviction, have been convicted of any offence in the manner aforesaid.


said, he should support the Amendment. The Bill should only apply to children that had been proved habitual criminals, and not to trifling first offenders.


said, he could not agree to the Amendment proposed. The effect of it would be to prevent the reformation of a youth until he had become hardened in crime. The earlier a bad career was checked the better.


observed, it would be better to adhere to the principle of the Bill, and not introduce the words proposed.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted,"

The Committee divided:—Ayes 16: Noes 176: Majority 160.


said, he would move an Amendment in the clause to the effect that no child should be sent to a Reformatory who had not previously been sentenced to not less than fourteen days' imprisonment.

Amendment proposed,— In page 3, line 38, after "always," to insert "that no offender shall be directed to be so sent and detained as aforesaid, unless the sentence passed as a punishment for his offence, at the expiration of which he is directed to be so sent and detained, shall be one of imprisonment for fourteen days at the least; and Provided also.


opposed the Amendment. It could not, in his opinion, be desirable that the magistrates should be compelled to sentence children in the first instance to what might be the very injurious effect of a residence in a prison.


said, that his Amendment was copied from a provision in the English Act. The object of it was to prevent children from being made chargeable without some sufficient cause on those Reformatories.


said, he thought that without some such provision there would be reason to fear that collusion might take place between children and parents.

Question put, "that those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 105; Noes 42: Majority 63.

Clause agreed to.

House resumed.

Committee report progress; to sit again on Wednesday next.

House adjourned at five minutes before Six o'clock