HC Deb 16 June 1857 vol 145 cc1938-41

Order for Committee read, House in Committee.

SIR THOMAS BURKE

said, the Bill altered the whole machinery of the Grand Jury Bill of Ireland, and he hoped the Government would not proceed with it at that late hour (twenty minutes past twelve). He should move as an Amendment that the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

MR. MAGAN

said, he thought it was very unreasonable that he should be prevented from going on with the Bill now that the House had gone into Committee. He was fully prepared to meet any arguments which might be urged against it.

MR. BLAND

said, there were at present many defects in the law, and under certain circumstances the grand jury had not power to repair the roads, and in his county there were eighteen Irish miles of road out of repair. If the Bill were not passed before the assizes, another year would elapse before the roads could be repaired.

MR. P. O'BRIEN

said, he could likewise bear testimony to the injurious consequences of the present state of the law.

MR. H. A. HERBERT

said that, when the Bill was introduced, there appeared to be no objection to its principle, and he was surprised to hear objections now urged against proceeding with it. It was a very useful measure, and he hoped the Committee would go on with the consideration of the clauses.

MR. BAGWELL

said, that objections were formerly waived in consequence of a statement from the right hon. Gentleman the then Secretary of Ireland, that the Bill would be productive of beneficial results. If the Bill passed, the whole control of the roads in Ireland would go into the hands of the county surveyors.

MR. KIRK

said, it was his belief also that the Bill would change the whole system of grand jury presentments in Ireland; in fact, making the county surveyor the contractor without any check whatever on his proceedings.

MR. NAPIER

said, he thought that the Committee would be stultifying itself by impeding the progress of the Bill, which upon introduction met with general approval, and was allowed to pass its second reading without any remarks in opposition to it.

MR. J. D. FITZGERALD

said, the Bill merely provided for an exceptional case, that exceptional case being a great evil. The dangers which had been shadowed out were purely imaginary.

LORD NAAS

said, he thought that the Bill as it now stood would lead to great abuses. The county surveyors of Ireland were a grasping body, who were extremely well paid for doing very little work.

Motion negatived.

Clause 1 (when no contract entered into for works approved of at Sessions, grand jury may do so).

MR. MAGAN

said, he was tired of the Bill, and would rather that the Chief Secretary for Ireland should take it into his hands.

LORD NAAS

proposed to omit from the clause the words "or construction."

MR. H. A. HERBERT

would prefer to have the clause as it stood, but rather than the Bill should not pass he would advise its hon. and gallant author (Mr. Magan) to consent to the omission of the words.

MR. MAGAN,

however, objected.

Amendment proposed, in page 2, line 6, to leave out the words "or construction."

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 52; Noes 14: Majority 38.

SIR ROBERT FERGUSON

said, he objected to the present measure, that it would destroy the system of free competition. He was of opinion that the whole question of county surveyors should be considered by a Select Committee. He would move an Amendment to that effect.

Amendment proposed, in lines 8 and 9, to leave out the words "or, if they shall see fit, to direct the county surveyor to execute the same."

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 36; Noes 25: Majority 11.

Clause agreed to.

Clause 2 (Treasurer to advance on Certificate of Surveyor any sum not exceeding that presented for).

MR. KIRK

said, he believed the clause would be inoperative. The grand jury were not authorized in raising money except for a specific purpose.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 37; Noes 19: Majority 16.

Clause agreed to.

MR. MAGAN moved, in addition, a clause to provide that in the event of the non-attendance of a justice at the place appointed for presentment session, the secretary of the grand jury should have power to adjourn such session to a future day.

MR. KER

said, he objected to a Bill of that importance to Ireland being proceeded with at so late an hour (twenty minutes to two), and moved that the Chairman do report progress, and obtain leave to sit again.

MR. J. D. FITZGERALD

said, he would recommend the withdrawal of the clause, as one which might act injuriously to the interests of the cesspayer.

Clause withdrawn. Remaining clauses agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported, without Amendment, to be read 3° To-morrow.