HC Deb 28 July 1857 vol 147 cc557-65

Order for Committee read.

SIR GEORGE GREY

, in moving that the House resolve itself into Committee on this Bill, said he wished to explain briefly the object of the Bill. The House was aware that by several Acts of Parliament general permanent powers had been established for the purpose of securing the public health, while a temporary authority alone had been provided by which those powers could be carried into execution. In the course of last year the General Board of Health, as at present constituted, was continued until the 29th of July in the present year, and until the end of the then next Session of Parliament. It was therefore necessary, unless Parliament should be of opinion that the powers of the Board should entirely cease, that provision should be made for the continuance of the exercise of powers which in many parts of the country had proved very beneficial, in the event of the occurrence of any emergency, such as the breaking out of an epidemic. The Government thought it unnecessary to continue as a distinct and separate department the Board of Health, and were of opinion, now that a Vice President of the Council of Education was appointed, with a seat in that House, that the powers vested in the Board of Health might be placed in the hands of the President of the Council of Education, aided by the Vice President. Thus the parliamentary responsibility under the proposed arrangement would be quite as complete as at present, and a considerable saving would be effected to the public, as the salary of the President of the Board of Health and other expenses connected with the Board would be immediately reduced. The object of the present Bill was to transfer the powers of the General Board of Health to a Committee of the Privy Council, but he understood some objection, was entertained to the permanent character of the provisions of the measure. A Bill amending the Public Health Act of 1848 had been introduced, the consideration of which had been delayed so long by circumstances that it was now impossible it could receive the attention it deserved during the present Session. Therefore he admitted it would not be reasonable to ask the House to provide by the Bill which he now proposed a permanent authority to carry out the provisions of another measure which yet remained to be discussed; and under the circumstances all he should do would be to ask the House to alter the present measure to a mere continuance Bill, but to connect with that continuance Bill enactments for the abolition of the office of the President of the Board of Health and the transference of the powers of that Board for a temporary period to the Education Committee of the Privy Council. He should propose in Committee that the present Bill should continue in force only until the 29th of July in next year, and to the end of the then next Session of Parliament, and the whole subject in connection with the Act of 1848 would be brought under the consideration of Parliament in the ensuing year.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the chair."

MR. KNIGHT

moved, as an Amendment, that the House go into Committee upon the Bill that day three months. Ever since 1854 they had been promised a general measure on this subject, and on the faith of that promise they had passed several renewal Bills. But the Government had not kept faith with the House; and now he thought they ought to fight the Board not as leaseholders, but as tenants at will—that was to say, let the House throw out this Bill and then the Government would be compelled to bring in the general measure they had promised, or the powers of the Board would expire. He objected to the continuance of a permanent central Board to over-ride the whole towns in England, and thus to place them in much the same position as those in Austria as regarded the central Government. He should himself not be satisfied with any Bill which did not convert the various local boards of health into independent corporations in one shape or another, so that they might become entirely independent of the Government, and be acceptable to the inhabitants. He was also opposed, on constitutional grounds, to transferring powers to the Privy Council—a proceeding which, in his opinion, was not unlike the innovation of the Star Chamber. He wished the Bill to be so altered that if the promised Bill of the Government were not brought in and passed next year, the Board of Health would expire and not again be revived.

Amendment proposed, To leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House will, upon this day three months, resolve itself into the said Committee," instead thereof.

SIR GEORGE PECHELL

also objected altogether to transferring the office from Richmond Terrace to the corner of Downing Street. He was decidedly against the powers of the existing Act being given to the Privy Council, and would oppose the preamble with the exception of the portion which dissolved the present General Board of Health.

MR. PALK

said, he considered this Bill to be highly objectionable. He was not aware that the Privy Council had any special aptitude for carrying out such sanitary regulations as the country might require. But he regarded this as a question affecting less the public health than the good faith of the Government. Last year they had introduced, and succeeded in passing, a continuance Bill on the most distinct understanding that they should introduce a general public health measure sufficiently early in the present Session to afford time for a full discussion of its merits. Upon that pledge, and that pledge alone, they had obtained the assent of the House to a continuance Bill. But they were at present leaving unaccomplished the engagement into which they had thus entered. The Bill which they had introduced, but with which they did not mean to persevere, was as objectionable an one of its kind as any he had ever known. One of its clauses would render permanent all the main provisions of the Act of 1848. But that Act had been found wholly ineffective for the attainment of the object for which it had been framed; it tended to destroy local self-government, while it had contributed to add largely to taxation and to create considerable irritation and ill-will in the districts to which it had been extended. He gave his cordial support to the Motion for the rejection of the measure then under the consideration of the House.

MR. COWPER

said, that the Government had redeemed their pledge to introduce a general Bill on this subject, and he was most anxious that it should pass in the present Session; but hon. Gentlemen opposite were more responsible for delaying the Bill than he was. He regretted that there should not be in that House the same interest in sanitary questions which was felt in the country, but if the House was not willing to give precedence to questions affecting the health and lives of the people over merely political questions, they must not complain of delay. With reference to the necessity of continuing the existing Act, the House must remember that the Municipal Act did not give the powers which were exercised under the Public Health Act in reference to drainage, cleansing, and all matters connected with the purification and improvement of dwellings in towns, and the consequence had been that something like forty municipalities had adopted the Public Health Act, and had found its powers of the greatest use and advantage. As for the statement that the Act of 1848 promoted jobbing, all he could say was, that the power given to the central Board was given to prevent jobbing on the part of the local Boards, and all the powers complained of as arbitrary were simply exercised for the benefit of the inhabitants of towns by controlling those who governed them. The power of applying the Act against the wish of the inhabitants, though it existed on paper, was never exercised. On the other hand, several of the corporate towns, of their own will, had come under the operation of the Act, and found the greatest benefit from it. He had a list of forty-five towns in which sanitary works had been completed, and it appeared from that list there was a great decrease in the rate of mortality since the completion of those sanitary works. In Coventry, the mortality had fallen in the proportion of 27 to 24; in Darlington, from 68, in 1852, to 23; in Derby, from 28 to 23; in Swansea, from 22 to 19, and so on. The Registrar General in his Report said, that the effects of the sanitary measures which had been recently taken were beginning to be apparent, and that the mortality in 1,000 had fallen from the average of 23, in the ten years between 1846 and 1855, to 21 in 1856. That, he thought, was decisive. In the case of Sandgate the mischief arose from the mismanagement of the local Board in employing improper people to do their work, and vesting in one individual functions which he was not able to perform. The case of Croydon had been much talked of, but he had lately made inquiries of all the medical men and others in that town as to its state. The answer of Dr. Carpenter, confirmed by all the rest, was to the effect that the drainage of Croydon under the local board had effected great sanitary improvement. The evil which had been felt there had been corrected by the efforts of the General Board of Health. The exertions of the General Board of Health had led to London being supplied with pure water, but still other towns stood in need of that prime necessity. A valuable Report was being prepared by the General Board of Health on the subject of the warming and ventilation of the dwellings of the poor, which would be productive of great advantage. Then there was the subject of vaccination, the law on which could not remain as it was, and an enormous mortality arising from small-pox and imperfect vaccination might be checked and prevented by the intervention of a central department. Again, the adulterations of food and drugs were matters to deal with which it was necessary to have some central authority. He therefore hoped the House would not be of opinion that it could abolish the Board of Health without establishing some central department in its place.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he was anxious to meet in a spirit of fairness the opponents of the measure, and, admitting that it was desirable that some security should be taken for the consideration of the whole subject next year, he had proposed to limit the operation of the Bill according to the usual Parliamentary practice; but as distrust had been expressed, he was willing to depart from that form, and instead of limiting the operation of the Bill to the 29th of July next year, and to the end of the then next Session of Parliament, he would propose a fixed day next year—the 1st of September—beyond which the Bill should not operate. If, however, the House preferred to have a mere continuance Act, the Government could have no other objection to that course being adopted except that it would involve an expense of some £3,000 or £4,000 a year to the country.

MR. AYRTON

said, that if the right hon. Gentleman contented himself with a simple continuance Act until the 1st of September next year, he would meet the views of all who opposed the present Bill; but if he went further, and insisted on the transference of the powers of the Board of Health to the Privy Council, he would be met with opposition. It was said that a saving would be effected by this Bill in consequence of the abolition of the office of President of the Board of Health; but the same saving might be effected without the Bill by the Government appointing, until the whole question should be discussed, some one now in office to perform the duties under the Bill for the salary he at present received. From the speech of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cowper), it would seem that the action of the central authority was to be extended to almost every matter, as if the people of England were wholly unable to take care of themselves. He, however, was of opinion that bad local government was better than the best central government, for the political health of the people was even of more importance in the end than their bodily health.

SIR WILLIAM HEATHCOTE

said, it seemed to him that now the only question before the House was, whether in the continuance Bill the powers of the Board of Health should be transferred to another authority. He thought that that was an important part of the matter which was to come under consideration at a future period, and the House should not anticipate a decision on it by adopting the provision as to the transfer of powers in the present Bill. It would be much better to make this Bill a mere continuance Bill.

MR. T. DUNCOMBE

said, that last September a gentleman who represented the Board of Health attended a congress at Brussels. He made a speech, and above all other things, he recommended the people there to have boards of health. [Mr. COWPER: He was not a member of the Board of Health.] At all events, that gentleman made a speech in the presence of the Board of Health, and was cheered by the Board of Health. He said the people of Belgium had no idea what boards of health had done for England, and that by their means the mortality in nearly 200 towns in England had been diminished about 50 per cent. But he did not stop there, but went on to state that the fecundity of the land had by the same means been quadrupled. That was consolation to the country gentlemen. Now, with regard to the present continuance Bill, he (Mr. Duncombe) objected to the continuance of the Board of Health for six months, and if economy was to be effected by the Bill he asked, why should not the salaries of the Board of Health be reduced at once? The Board was expensive and totally useless, and should be done away with. As for its superintendence in respect to the supply of water in certain towns, the Home Department or Board of Works might undertake that work.

VISCOUNT EBRINGTON

defended the administration of the Board of Health, contending that the sanitary condition of the great towns had materially improved since the passing of the Public Health Act. According to the testimony of all ministers of religion dirt, disease, and crime, were concurrent, and the Public Health Act was passed because many towns enjoying the benefits of the Municipal Reform Act were, nevertheless, in an unsatisfactory state. A number of those towns subsequently availed themselves of the provisions of the Act. Having devoted many Years of his life to the promotion of sanitary reform, and believing it to be connected with the moral and religious improvement of the people, he could not avoid expressing a hope that the House would not abandon the principle of legislation which it had adopted on this subject.

SIR WALTER FARQUHAR

said, he would withdraw all further opposition to the Bill if the right hon. Gentleman would merely pass a continuance Act till next September.

MR. HENLEY

would prefer to see the Board of Health remaining where it was until the whole subject should be debated next Session, and the economy proposed to be carried out could still be effected by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Cowper) undertaking in the meanwhile duties with which he was familiar connected with that Board.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out" stand part of the Question.

The House divided:—Ayes 98; Noes 73: Majority 25.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

House in Committee.

Clause 1 (Provides for the transfer of the Board to the Committee of Council on Education).

SIR GEORGE PECHELL

said, he believed the Government must feel that it would be impossible for them to pass the Bill with that provision in the course of the present Session. He hoped they would not persevere with the clause, and he moved its omission.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he understood that the House had on the division which had just taken place decided in favour of the clause. That was, in reality, the only point in dispute when they had divided.

MR. SPOONER

said the question was, whether they should continue the Board at an expense of £3,000 a year, or transfer it to the Privy Council without that cost for a definite and specified period.

MR. AYRTON

did not think Members were under the impression that in voting in the last division they were pronouncing a deliberate opinion on the point now raised. It was necessary the House should express an opinion upon it, and he would therefore press for a division upon the clause.

MR. T. DUNCOMBE

said, he gave his vote on the ground that there should be no legislation on the subject in the present Session. The principle of transferring these powers to the Privy Council was quite new, and ought not to be carried by a side-wind. The tenacity with which the Government stuck to the Privy Council ought to excite the jealousy of the Committee.

MR. SPOONER

said, that a simple continuance Bill would involve a President, while the business would be done at the Privy Council by an additional clerk. No principle was involved, as next year they might make permanent arrangements.

MR. AYRTON

said, that as to the point of economy any Government officer might fill the office of President ad interim till a permanent arrangement could be made.

MR. TATTON EGERTON

wished to know if the principle was to be a temporary or a permanent one?

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he did not intend that the Committee, in assenting to this clause, should pledge itself to the principle that the powers of the Act of 1848 should be given to the Privy Council. If, however, it was the general opinion of the Committee that, during the interval which should elapse before nest September, those powers should not be transferred to the Privy Council, he would acquiesce in that opinion, and move that the Chairman do now leave the chair with the view of making such alterations in the Bill as would carry out the wish of the House.

MR. T. DUNCOMBE

inquired whether the Government intended that the duties of the President of the Board of Health should be performed by the Vice President of the Committee of Council on Education?

SIR WILLIAM HEATHCOTE

said, that if the change was not to be a permanent one he could not think it would be worth while to introduce it in a mere continuance Bill.

SIR GEORE GREY

said, that, as it seemed to be the general wish of the House, he would be prepared to make this a continuance Bill, with only the understanding that without any transference of the Board its duties were to be discharged by his right hon. Friend (Mr. Cowper), and that a saving was to be effected in that way for the public. In order to carry out that arrangement he should move that the Chairman should then leave the chair.

House resumed. [No Report.]