SUPPLY.—THE PERSIAN WAR. (Hansard, 23 July 1857)

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
In rising to move the Supplementary Estimate for the Persian War, I will not refer to the discussion which took place in this House upon the grounds of that war, but will only briefly refer to the explanation I then gave as to the reason for asking the House to agree to a provisional Vote on this subject. I said that if it had not been for the disastrous intelligence which had been recently received from India, neither the East India Company would have asked the Government to 298 present this Vote, nor would the Government have considered themselves called upon to make this additional application to Parliament. But under the circumstances of the Indian Revenue at this time—the loss which the East India Company have suffered of different district treasuries, and the probability, I may say the certainty, that the collection of the revenue, both direct and indirect, will suffer interruption and diminution for a time—the House will, I think, scarcely refuse to accede to this additional Vote. I will only briefly refer to the remark of my hon. Friend, the Chairman of the East India Company (Mr. Ross Mangles) upon the previous occasion of this Vote. My hon. Friend seemed to think that there was some reluctance on the part of this House to discharge what he considered to be a debt due to the East India Company. Now, in the first place, I must state that, properly speaking, the Government have it not in their power to pledge the credit of this House. All we did was to undertake to ask the House to reimburse the Indian Treasury for a portion of the extraordinary expenses of the war. That, however, did not create a debt. It was only a conditional promise dependent for its completion on the assent of the House. It was analogous to that species of engagement which the Government offer in tendering for a loan, those persons being aware that the ultimate acceptance of the loan will depend upon this House. I think therefore that my hon. Friend the Chairman of the Court of Directors used a term which is hardly justifiable when he talked of a debt due to the East India Company from this House. For my own part, I think that the House acted with great liberality and justice as soon as the subject was brought under its notice. I confess that although I have heard many arguments to show that the war was improperly undertaken by the Government, and that the government was not, under the circumstances of the case, justified in entering upon the war with Persia. I have not observed any reluctance on the part of this House to discharge what my hon. Friend, as I think, improperly calls a debt due to the East India Company; but, on the contrary, I think that the House has given the subject the fairest consideration, was desirous of making these remarks because I thought that the conduct of the House in dealing with this question has not been such as to justify any complaint 299 upon the part of the East India Company as to the manner in which their proposal has been entertained. I shall now move that a sum of £400,000 he granted to her Majesty towards the reimbursement of the East India Company for the extraordinary expenditure connected with, the expedition to the Persian Gulf.

MR. WILLIAMS
said, he must complain that when £265,000 was proposed to the House for the expenses of the war, it was intimated that a very little more would be required. That sum had been very much exceeded, and now an additional £400,000 was proposed. It would be a great satisfaction to the House and the country to know whether any further amount would be required, and he ventured to hope that the right hon. Gentleman would give a distinct answer upon this point.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said he feared that he had not upon a previous occasion made the hon. Gentleman clearly understand the nature of this Vote. He had laid upon the table an estimate of the total charge of the expedition to Persia, as at present calculated by the East India Company, and if the hon. Gentleman would refer to that document, he would find that the total amount so calculated by them was £1,865,000; and in saying so much, he stated to the House all the information he possessed at the present moment, that being in fact all that the East India Company could themselves say. The House must of course be aware that no settlement could be made with the Company until the whole of the accounts were made up, ant for that reason it might be more convenient not to vote so large a sum during the present Session. Looking, however, to the state of the Indian Treasury, he should not have felt justified in declining to accede to what he thought was a reason able application on the part of the East India Company, that Government should pay the sum which appeared to be due to them at the earliest possible opportunity. The arrangement entered into with the East India Company was that the ordinary expenses of troops, for instance, and ships employed, should be defrayed bp the Company, but that her Majesty's Government should defray a moiety of the extraordinary expenses; and the present Vote was submitted with the view of reimbursing them for that moiety.

§ COLONEL SYKES
said, that a division of the army still remained in Persia, and cir- 300 cumstances might arise to detain them, and therefore it would be impossible at resent to state the exact amount of the expense of the expedition.

§ MR. COX
observed, that he thought it would be satisfactory to the House and to be country to know when it was probable hat the whole of the troops would return from Persia.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, that information had been received that all the European troops had returned to India, and that a portion of them were upon the march for the disaffected provinces. With regard to the native troops, he did not think that they had, at the date of the last advices, left the Persian Gulf.

LORD JOHN MANNERS
said, that a Commission had been appointed to see that the stipulations of the treaty, with regard to the evacuation of Herat, were duly carried out, and he thought that it would be satisfactory to the House if the noble Lord at the head of the Government would inform the House if he had received any information from the Commission upon the subject.

§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTON
said, that Commissioners certainly had been appointed to oversee the evacuation of the place. They were, however, to proceed to Herat by way of Teheran, and consequently it was impossible, during the short time that had elapsed since their appointment, that the Government could be informed of the result.

§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY
said, it was only the other day the House was informed of an outstanding account due to the East India Company for the last China war. The Committee were now asked to assent to a vote of £400,000 due to the East India Company for the Persian war, although the right hon. Gentleman, when proposing the first vote of £260,000, said that that sum would be the only call. He thought it would be desirable to know the full extent of the amount that would be required for this purpose. He was afraid that we were paying very dear for the advantage it was supposed we had gained. Another point to which he wished to call their attention was one which he considered involved a very serious matter. Whenever any hostilities were entered into with any power which were calculated to cast a burden upon British resources, he thought it was the duty of the Government immediately to communicate the fact by a mes- 301 sage to the House. It was like shaking the very foundation of the financial power of the House for the Government to come at that time of day for payment of those expenses. He had an intention of introducing a specific Resolution on the subject, but he was prevented carrying out that intention from the fear of embarrassing the Government. He hoped, however, that the Government would give them some assurance on the subject that the present case would not be drawn into a precedent.

§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTON
said, from the observations of the hon. Gentleman, he was almost disposed to think that the hon. Gentleman was entering upon a repetition of the observations made the other night by the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck). He (Viscount Palmerston) endeavoured on the former occasion to explain the reasons for the delay which had occurred in communicating those facts to Parliament. He had then stated that at the earliest possible moment the Government communicated the fact to Parliament in the most formal manner. Indeed, the war with Persia was stated in the Speech from the Throne, which was a much more formal way of communicating the intelligence to the House than a message in the course of the Session. He could only give the assurance now, as he had given it before, that the Government were willing to admit the principle which the hon. Member contended for—namely, that when a war was undertaken which was likely to lead to expense, they ought to take the earliest possible opportunity of laying the facts before Parliament, even independently and before any vote of money for the conduct of the war was proposed. The House would thus have the earliest opportunity of considering the whole matter, and of expressing an opinion upon the question.

§ MR. WALPOLE
said, that he thought that the noble Lord was not quite accurate in his observations respecting the official communications made to the House. Although, no doubt, there was an announcement in the Speech from the Throne that British forces, both naval and military, had gone upon the Persian expedition, no intimation was given either in that Speech, or otherwise by the Government, that the expenses were to be borne jointly by the Home Government and the East India Company. That was a matter upon which he thought the Government ought to have given the House some information, and 302 that was the point which he pressed the other night in the debate which arose on the Resolution of the hon. and learned Member for Sheffield (Mr. Roebuck). The House then received from the noble Viscount at the head of the Government, an assurance that this should not be drawn into a precedent, and being satisfied with that assurance he was one of those who voted with the noble Viscount, and against the Resolution, expressing reprobation of the conduct of the Government. As he was upon the subject, the noble Viscount would probably forgive him for correcting what was certainly a very clever turn of the debate when he twitted hon. Members, and himself (Mr. Walpole), among others, with not having brought this subject forward at an earlier period of the late Session, The noble Lord should, however, recollect that we were then engaged in negotiations for peace, and that hon. Members carefully abstained from raising any question, the discussion of which might impede the progress of those negotiations. He could appeal to some of those who sat on the Treasury bench to confirm his statement that it was not an after-thought, but his deliberate opinion from the first, that something ought to have been said by the Government with reference to the portion of the expenses which this country was to bear, and that the Government should have done well to pass a Resolution that this should not be drawn into a precedent. He therefore thought that no hon. Member of that House could justly be blamed for not raising an objection to the proceedings of the Government at a time when negotiations for peace were going on, and when the adoption of such a course might have produced great inconvenience.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
remarked, that he distinctly recollected that very early in the last Session of Parliament, probably on the second or third day, he clearly stated what was the financial arrangement with respect to the Persian war. More than that, when he made his financial statement, which must have been on the eighth or tenth day of the Session, he gave the estimate of £260,000, which had been so much criticised; and the correspondence between the East India Company and the Treasury was shortly afterwards laid upon the table; therefore it was clear that the House was at the earliest period informed of the arrangements for the expenses of this war.