§ (3.) £7,125, General Board of Health.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he had to complain of the shortness of the time during which these Estimates—class No. 7— had been in the hands of Members. They included forty-eight votes, amounting to £684,000, and showing an increase of £303,000 over the Votes for the same items last year. [Cries of "No! no!"] He said yes. That was after deducting a class of Votes which had disappeared from the Estimates. These Votes he only received at past Ten o'clock that morning, and, as he had to leave home to perform his duties in the House at ten minutes after Eleven, therefore he had only an hour and ten minutes to investigate the nature of those forty-eight Votes. Were it not that he saw among the votes some old friends of his on which he wished to say a few words, he should, to save the time of the House, propose to vote a round sum of £648,000. As to the particular Vote, he had been given to understand that the Board of Health was to be abolished, and there was a Bill now before the House, he believed, for that purpose. It had proved to be utterly useless, and served no other end than to provide large salaries for certain individuals. For instance, there was a medical officer at a salary of £1,500; but the office was totally useless at the present time, because, since the appointment of the holder of the office, all the great parishes of the Metropolis had appointed medical officers of their own.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he must demur altogether to the statement that this Department had been found to be utterly useless. On the contrary, it had done good service, and when the cholera visited this country its labour had been most valuable. It would not be wise nor expedient to dispense altogether with some machinery of the sort, but the Government, upon consideration, had come to the conclusion that it was unnecessary to keep up a separate Department; and a Bill was introduced for the purpose of conferring its powers on the President of the Council, 305 assisted by some members of the Privy Council. Of course it would be necessary to keep up the staff to a certain extent, The Bill, owing to various circumstances, had been postponed, and this Estimate was calculated for the Department as it now stood, but if the Bill passed into law no more of the sum voted by Parliament would be spent than was absolutely required under the new arrangement.
§ MR. BLACKBURNobserved, that he understood that the Board of Health would expire this year, whether there was any legislation or not, consequently it was unnecessary to take a vote for it.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYexplained that the Board under the present arrangement, would not expire until the end of the Session of 1858.
§ COLONEL SYKESsaid, he also must complain that by the late delivery of the Estimates hon. Members were deprived of all opportunity of considering Votes which they were required to grant or reject on the spot. By this conduct of the Government they were placed in a false position with their constituents.
§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, he wished to know whether any part of the £18,000 voted last year for this Department had been left unexpended, or whether it had all been spent in the year? None of the accounts connected with these Estimates were audited, and Parliament had no assurance that these moneys were all spent on the objects for which they were voted. Indeed facts had come out lately which showed that any of these Votes could be applied to purposes other than those for which they were voted. For instance, of the sum voted for the funeral of the Duke of Wellington, £24,000 it turned out had not been spent at all. Under these circumstances, and considering the very large increase which had taken place of late years in this particular class of Estimates, it was very desirable to know whether the whole of each particular Vote had been spent on the precise object for which it was voted, or whether there was any outstanding balance applicable to other purposes.
MR. WILSONsaid, that with regard to this particular Vote the money-votes for one year were not applicable to the next year. It was a Vote for the expenses of the Department for the year ending the 31st of March, 1858, the expenses of the next year would be voted in that year, and therefore, as regarded the establishment 306 the money-vote for the year must be spent in that year. With regard to another class of Votes in this paper—Votes for public buildings, for instance, the whole of the money need not be spent in the year, and the balance would be still applicable to the expenses of the buildings for the following year, but for no other purpose. The hon. Baronet was quite in error in supposing that the money voted for one purpose could be applied to any other. It was impossible to say at this moment what portion of the particular sum granted last year was still unexpended, but the hon. Baronet was aware that every year accounts were laid on the table which showed precisely how much of these Civil Service Votes were issued, how much expended, and how much remained unexpended. With respect to the question of audit, though these accounts were not audited as the Army and Navy accounts were, yet the issues were audited by the Audit Department, and, if they were exceeded, of course attention would be called to the fact by that Department in its annual Report.
§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYsaid, that the annual finance accounts, with singular adroitness, were not laid on the table until the end of June or the beginning of July. They had then to be printed, and they were not delivered to hon. Members until some time in the recess, so that for the purposes of the financial year they were not worth one farthing.
MR. WILSONsaid, he was aware there was some cause for complaint in the matter to which his hon. Friend had referred; but the delay had arisen from the difficulty which the War Department had experienced in closing its accounts, in consequence of the heavy service in which it had recently been engaged. That, however, was a difficulty which he hoped would not exist in future years, and he trusted the War Department would be able in future to furnish its accounts within the time prescribed by the Act of Parliament.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he should like to know if the Bill for transferring the duties of the Board of Health to the Privy Council passed what they would want with a President at a salary of £2,000 a year? He should move that the Vote be postponed until they knew the fate of that Bill.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, as a matter of course, from the time that the Bill passed, if it passed, the Government would not feel themselves justified in spending any portion of the money which might then remain unexpended. There was, however, a President for the present year still in existence, and the Bill referred to, moreover, might not receive the sanction of Parliament.
§ MR. MOWBRAYsaid, it was gratifying to know that there was still a President of the Board of Health, for until then he had thought from the silence of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Monsell) who held that office, that it was defunct. If they were to have a Board of Health, with a President who received that large salary, the grant should have been defended by the right hon. Gentleman who performed the functions of that office. He trusted that the hon. Member for Lambeth would take the souse of the Committee on this Vote.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, his right hon. Friend had discharged the duties of his office in the most creditable manner, but it was no part of his functions to defend the Vote before the House. That was a duty properly devolving on him (Sir G. Grey).
§ MR. COXsaid, he thought it was hardly fair to ask the Committee to discuss the question that night on an estimate which hon. Members had really no sufficient opportunity of looking into. He was strenuously opposed both to the Board of Health and to the proposed Bill for transferring its duties to the Privy Council. Besides, he had understood that the powers of the Board of Health were to cease this year. He was ready to divide against the Vote, believing the Board of Health to be a greater nuisance than any of those it professed to remove.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, it had been stated that the powers of the Board of Health were not only useless but mischievous. He would not advert to their usefulness in this metropolis in a sanitary point of view; those who recollected what passed on the last visit of the cholera were well aware of the eminent services they performed, and of the noble devotion which his right hon. Friend (Sir B. Hall) exhibited in the discharge of his official functions. But this Board was exceedingly useful in the relation in which it stood to towns that were anxious to obtain for their corporate constitution certain powers for cleansing, lighting, and sanitary purposes. If any 308 town in the kingdom obtained those powers through the medium of a private Bill, the inhabitants had to pay something like £600 if the Bill was unopposed, and perhaps double that amount if it was opposed; but they could obtain the same privileges through the intervention of the Board of Health at an expense not much exceeding £50, and that was the Board which the hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. Williams) believed to be mischievous and useless.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he was perfectly ready to acknowledge that the services of the right hon. Baronet (Sir B. Hall) during the last visit of the cholera were most meritorious; but he must contend that the circumstances were entirely different now, when on the new Metropolitan Board of Works devolved most of the functions which had been previously discharged by the Board of Health. With regard to the services which the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) said had been performed by the Board of Health to corporate towns, he (Mr. Williams) only knew two towns which had availed themselves of those services, and the result had been extremely unsatisfactory—he might say, hateful to the inhabitants. He thought, at all events, that the salary of the medical officer of the Board ought to be reduced from £1,500 to £500. As he could not move the postponement of this Vote he had no other course to take than to meet it with a direct negative. He should, therefore, take the sense of the Committee upon it.
§ MR. AYRTONobserved that he understood that the Board of Health was condemned by the late Parliament, yet they were asked to provide the whole establishment the same as last year. The Government had introduced a Bill to continue the Board of Health in a worse form than previously, because the powers of the President were transferred to an irresponsible body—the Committee of the Privy Council. The Bill had been read a second time accidentally without serious opposition. The Government, however, knew it would be opposed, and the next stage was postponed from day to day and from week to week. Until the House had had an opportunity of pronouncing its opinion on the Board of Health he thought the Vote ought to be postponed.
MR. COWPERsaid, he could not agree with the hon. and learned Member for the Tower Hamlets (Mr. Aryton), that the Committee of the Privy Council was an ire- 309 sponsible body. The President of the Board was a Privy Councillor, but a transfer of its powers to a Committee of the Privy Council would not be the cause of more secrecy than now existed. The Government, for the sake of economy, had made a concession to the feeling that there was too large an expenditure under different Deparments, but, as very often happened, the concession had not been met in the spirit in which it had been made. The Government had thought it would be more economical if the Board was combined with another Department. The Board did not exist under a temporary but under two permanent Acts, and before it could be abolished, the Acts under which it existed must be repealed. Those Acts were the Board of Health Act of 1848, and the Diseases' Prevention Act of 1855, and it would place matters in an anomalous position if they were suddenly to destroy the Department to which the carrying out those Acts was entrusted. It was very natural that hon. Gentlemen representing the Metropolis should not be aware of the usefulness of the Board of Health, because the Metropolis was excluded from the scope of the Public Health Act. But the Metropolis Local Management Act was based upon the same principles as the Public Health Act, and therefore, if the Metropolis Act were useful, so must be the Public Health Act. The Public Health Act had been applied to 239 towns, and the majority of those towns were most thankful for the benefits conferred by the Act, and the aid received from the General Board of Health in the form of legal, engineering, and medical advice. So far from being useless, the Board of Health was, perhaps, the most useful department of the Government [Laughter], It was the only Department which saved lives; but, perhaps, hon. Members who laughed did not think the saving of lives of any importance. On comparing the mortality in nineteen towns before the works of drainage were commenced and after they were completed, he found that the number of deaths had decreased from twenty-eight in 1,000 to twenty in 1,000. But the decrease of mortality was not the best test. The decrease of disease was still more marked, showing that by carrying away the pestilential miasmata of sewers and cess-pits, they could almost annihilate typhus fever, and greatly diminish epidemics, which tended to prostrate the powers of active men, and to entail the expenses of sickness 310 upon the labouring classes. The benefits to the working classes especially in that respect had been great. There were many subjects besides the administration of the Act of 1848, on which the Board of Health exercised their powers. They had produced, for instance, the most valuable bluebooks during the last nine years. The importance of those books was proved by the fact that almost all the legislation that had taken place of late years had been founded on the information and the recommendations which they contained. That was the case in the improvement of the water supply of the Metropolis, and in the case of the numerous Bills passed for the prevention of the disagreeable and dangerous practice of intramural interment. The adoption of better measures with respect to quarantine and all the arrangements for checking the spread of cholera and other contagious diseases, had also been adopted under their superintendence; and he was indeed surprised to find any hon. Member of that House denying their general usefulness. Objection had been taken to the amount of the salary paid to the medical officer of the Board; but it was only by the payment of a liberal allowance that it would be possible to secure the services of a gentleman of high attainments, and who possessed the confidence of the members of his profession; and such a person the Board had found in the person of Mr. Simon. It should be remembered also, that in case of another visitation of cholera, it was only through the Board of Health that the indispensable regulations as to cleansing, whitewashing, &c., could be carried out, as there was no power of issuing such regulations except under the Diseases' Prevention Act, which was under the administration of the Board of Health. He had further to observe, that the estimate in that case was in all probability greater than the amount which it would be necessary to expend. The towns on whose behalf a portion of the money was laid out, returned the charge incurred on their account; and last year the sum so given back amounted to not less than £3,831. It was very likely that no less a sum would be returned out of the expenditure of the present year, and that the actual cost would be ultimately reduced by that amount. Those were the only observations with which he then deemed it necessary to trouble the Committee.
§ MR. MOWBRAYsaid, he thought that the address they had just heard from 311 the right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Committee of Education, might have been more appropriately delivered on the occasion of the second reading of the Board of Health Bill. The question which the Committee had then to consider was whether they should continue for another year a system which had been condemned by Parliament and the country. It was a significant circumstance that, considering the manner in which the Board of Health had been attacked, its President (Mr. Monsell) had not ventured to say a word in its defence. He did not think that it was to the Vice President of the Education Committee they should look for a vindication of the Board of Health. That right hon. Gentleman, however, had stated that he had in his pocket a list of towns which had expressed their approbation of the Board of Health. Perhaps he would inform the Committee whether Croydon and Sandgate were among those places. There could be no doubt that the proceedings of the Board of Health, and especially its engineering operations, had proved distasteful to many towns, and, in order to give the President of the Board an opportunity of addressing the Committee, he begged to ask him whether those superintendent inspectors, whose salaries were included in the Vote, were not in the habit of acting as engineers in the boroughs to which they were sent.
§ MR. MONSELLreplied, that since 1854 the superintendent inspectors had not acted as engineers. That system had been entirely abandoned. He believed that the practice which existed before 1854 of compelling towns to employ the engineers sent down by the Board, was the main reason of the unpopularity to which the Board had been exposed. During the short period he had filled the office of President, he had found on the part of the local authorities nothing but gratitude for the services rendered to them by the Board of Health, together with great willingness to adopt any suggestions which might be made to them. He might state, indeed, that the relations between the local bodies and the central Board were at the present moment entirely satisfactory. With respect to the personal observations of the hon. Gentleman who had last addressed the Committee, all he could say was that his position was a very peculiar one. It was necessary that somebody should fill the office of President of the Board of Health pending the passing of a Bill for the abo- 312 lition of the office, and the consideration of which had been fixed for an early day; and, although it was certainly not pleasant to occupy the post under such circumstances, he had considered it his duty to continue to discharge the duties of the office to the best of his ability until it was abolished. He might add, in conclusion, that he would be glad to give the Committee every information in his power.
§ MR. HENLEYsaid, that he was glad to find that such amicable relations existed between the Board of Health and the provincial towns as the right hon. Gentleman had described. He must confess, however, that an impression had gone abroad very extensively, that there had been a good deal of "jobbing" connected with its operations, and although the practice which had given rise to that impression might have been discontinued, yet the feeling was not entirely abated. With respect to the Vote itself, the Vice President of the Education Committee had told them that it was desirable to have sanitary improvements—a position which no one could feel disposed to dispute, but the question was, whether sanitary improvements could not be carried out without the expensive machinery of the Board of Health. The right hon. Gentleman had also alluded to various sanitary measures which had been carried out under the superintendence of the Board of Health. Now he (Mr. Henley) would not undertake to say whether those measures had always been improvements; but this he could state that the works to which the right hon. Gentleman had specially referred, were the productions, unless he was much mistaken, of an individual who had at one time possessed great influence with the Board, but who had been so far from having inspired the House and the country with the same confidence, that it had been thought desirable to grant him a retiring pension in order that the system might be carried out in a manner more acceptable to the public at large. It was adduced in support of the Board, that it appeared from certain blue-books that in nineteen towns the mortality had diminished under the operations of the Board from twenty-eight in the 1,000 to twenty—a very satisfactory statement, no doubt, but one which would have carried more weight upon the present occasion had the House been told at the same time what had happened in other towns where the Board of Health had 313 not interfered, and whether the decrease in the amount of mortality had not been caused by a cessation of various maladies which had for some time injuriously affected the public health. The continuance of the Board had been objected to for some time by the public, unless some improvements were made in the Act under which it derived its powers. Those improvements the Government had not thought fit to introduce, but instead proposed to transfer the whole powers to another body. For some reason, whether rightly or wrongly, the public had adopted an opinion that the Board of Health was a nuisance, and that idea, coupled with the fact that the inspectors were mixed up in engineering matters, had entailed much of its unpopularity. While the matter was hanging over from year to year the House might hope that at some time improvements might be made in the Act, but now it was proposed to hand over all the powers of the Board of Health permanently to another office. The right hon. Gentleman the Vice President of the Education Committee, would no doubt administer the Act with judgment and for the benefit of the public; but the general desire was that that Act should be amended so that its objectionable provisions might be removed before the House committed itself to the formation of a permanent Department. With regard to the Estimate, he thought it was not entirely satisfactory, the amount being precisely the same as that at which it had stood for some years, and the right hon. Gentleman who was in future to have the control of the Department, had spoken in a manner to lead the House to believe that his duties could not be of too burdensome a character. It was to be regretted that the Government had not brought on the Bill, which it was understood was to be introduced for the improvement of the Public Health Act at an earlier period. If the modifications required by the public had been introduced into the powers conferred upon the Board of Health, the objections to the Board itself would have been diminished. It was very disagreeable to oppose a Vote of this kind, and he could not bring himself to do so on the present occasion, but hoped that the Bill he had referred to would be introduced at an early period of next Session.
§ MR. BASSsaid, that until there was a central authority the local Boards of Health were very slow to make sanitary 314 arrangements for the benefit of the public. With regard to the diminished mortality alluded to by the right hon. Gentleman, it would not be difficult to prove that the relative amount of mortality was greatly in favour of those towns which had adopted the sanitary arrangements of the Board of Health. His object, however, in rising was to give the testimony of the borough which he represented in favour of the Board of Health. During the last two Sessions he had received positive instructions from the Mayor and Corporation of the town of Derby to support any Bill introduced by the Board of Health, and only yesterday he received instructions to support the Bill which was about to be introduced on this subject, which met with the general approval of the authorities.
§ SIR GEORGE PECHELLobserved, that he was sorry he could not come before the Committee with the same force as the hon. Gentleman who had just sat down; for he had not received such valuable instructions with regard to the Board of Health. But, on former occasions, he had received representations from the borough he represented, expressing abhorrence of the mode in which the Board of Health carried out the provisions of the Act of 1854. He fully concurred in almost all the observations of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley). He objected to the proposed transfer of powers of the Board of Health to the Committee of Council, and he hoped if there were to be any improvement in the Public Health Act, the people of this country would have full power given them of expressing their opinion on the matter, and as to its adoption in their towns. He would gladly support a measure for putting an end to the Board of Health, the Poor Law Board, and he would add, the Board of Trade.
§ MR. MONSELLsaid, the remark of the hon. and gallant Member showed that the misdeeds of the Board of Health of 1854 were attributed to the present Board, which was totally differently constituted. At present no district was obliged to adopt the recommendations of the Board in opposition to the wishes of the majority of the rate-payers in it.
§ SIR GEORGE PECHELLsaid, he was glad to be able to bear his testimony to the mode in which both the right hon. Gentleman and the late President of the Board of Health conducted its business; it was only the system to which he objected.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, that it would be difficult to satisfy such a general enemy of Boards as the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (Sir G. Pechell); but, before the question was put, he wished to say a word on what had been stated by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Oxfordshire (Hr. Henley). He thought that although the circumstances under which the Vote was proposed were not devoid of embarrassment, yet that the right hon. Gentleman had greatly exaggerated the difficulties which beset it, and had not alluded to the circumstances which tended to the removal of those difficulties. His right hon. Friend the Secretary for the Home Department had laid on the table a Bill to transfer the powers of the Board of Health to the Privy Council, but at the same time said that the House would not have time to consider it this Session. That Bill was introduced last Session, and had now lain on the table for many weeks, and it was postponed not at the instance of the Government, but on account of the objections which had been taken to it from different parts of the House. Should that Bill receive the sanction of the House, the effect of it would be to make a large portion of the establishment of the existing Board unnecessary, and the House, when the Bill was in committee, could impose any conditions it liked on the functions of the new Board. If the House thought that those functions, even in the hands of the Privy Council, should be exercised for one year only, then it could fix that as the limit. But it was necessary, till the views of the House with regard to the Bill were known, to propose a Vote for the establishment in its existing form. The estimate was taken from the 1st of April last. The establishment had been in existence since the 1st of April, and surely the House would not refuse to vote the salaries payable for that time. The first quarter being over, the question arose as to the remaining three quarters. If the plan embodied in the Bill of his right hon. Friend should be adopted, then the Government would reduce the establishment according to that plan, and, inasmuch as this was the spontaneous proposal of the Government, and not a measure pressed on them by the House, it could hardly be doubted that they would strictly carry out its provisions. If, therefore, the whole amount now voted was not required, the whole amount would not be expended; and he could safely assure the House that if that Bill was 316 passed, and should the establishment undergo the reduction that it must then necessarily undergo, the sum asked for in the Vote would not be required. After this explanation he hoped the Committee would not refuse their sanction to the Vote submitted to them.
LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, it was somewhat unsatisfactory to discuss this Vote on the supposition that a Bill which had been so long held back by the Government would finally pass. He did hot expect that it would pass. He admitted that it would be unreasonable to object entirely to the Vote; but he did not think that the very considerable amount which was asked was justified by the circumstances of the case. A few years ago the Chief Commissioner of Works was also President of the Board of Health, and at that time in neither character was he considered entitled to a private secretary; but now that the office was divided, each Head of the department had a private secretary. He should be surprised if it could be shown that the duties of the Board of Health required a secretary, an assistant secretary, and a private secretary to the President.
§
Motion made and Question put,
That a sum, not exceeding £7,125, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum required to defray the Expense of the General Board of Health, to the 31st day of March, 1858:
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 141, Noes 30; Majority 111.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (4.) £2,548, Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England.
§ SIR JOHN TRELAWNYmoved, that the Vote be reduced by the whole amount now proposed to be granted. The Vote was usually opposed by a section of the House opposed to all grants for religious purposes, and he had constantly divided against it, as well as against ministers' money. He wished to obtain from the Government some explanation with regard to the course they intended to pursue, as he did not consider that, consistently with their principles, they could support this grant; and he wished to relieve them from the difficulty which, otherwise, they would have to encounter when they brought in the church-rate measure, which they had promised to introduce this Session.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, the Committee were placed in some difficulty with regard to this Vote, because £1,000 had already been voted on account this year to defray the expenses of the Ecclesiastical 317 Commission. The resources of the Church of England were immensely great, and she ought to be required to bear all the expenses of managing her property. He thought that the people of this country had been extremely tolerant with regard to the Established Church, and that it was most unwise in her to add to her revenues by taxes imposed upon the people at large.
MR. WILSONsaid, this Vote had been agreed to for a great number of years. The greater part of the expenses of this Commission were paid for by the Commission itself, out of the funds of the Church. Independently of the special duties which it had to perform, it had a great amount of public duty to discharge with regard to copyholds and leaseholds.
§ MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he would express his hope that now ministers' money had been abolished in Ireland, the expense of managing the Irish Church Estates would also be paid for out of the public funds.
LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, he thought that the suggestion of the hon. and learned Gentleman who had just spoken was a very reasonable one, but that the proposition of the hon. Baronet opposite was most unreasonable, and for this reason,—it was not the Established Church but the Liberal Majority of a Liberal House of Commons that wished the properly of the Church to be managed, because that majority insisted that she was incapable of managing her own property, and that the Commission which they de sired to constitute would manage it more economically and beneficially. Surely, then, it was not unreasonable that the House of Commons should vote the expenses of that Commission, which violated all the ordinary rules of law. If the hon. Baronet would propose the repeal of the Act of Parliament which set up that abnormal Commission he (Lord J. Manners) was not sure whether he should not have great pleasure in seconding that proposition. In many respects the Commission was nothing but an incubus upon the Church of England, and so Song as the Liberal majority of the House of Commons insisted upon the whole of the property of the Church being managed by it, that House was bound to provide funds for the maintenance of the Commission.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYThe noble Lord has ventured, on the part of the Church, to repudiate the interference of 318 the Ecclesiastical Commission, but I, being a member of that Church, most certainly disclaim to be represented by the noble Lord. I am sorry that he has not expressed any sympathy on the part of the Church with those immense advantages which have been derived from this Commission, both as regards the extension of the spiritual instruction of the people and the administration of ecclesiastical property.
LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, there were innumerable eases in which the spiritual wants of the people might have been far better provided if the Church of England bad been permitted to act for herself.
§ SIR JOHN TRELAWNYThe noble Lord says that this Commission is entirely unnecessary; and I therefore claim his support in my attempt to procure its disallowance.
§ MR. A. W. KINGLAKEsaid, the Commission had not satisfactorily performed the duties which it undertook to discharge.
§ MR. WALPOLEsaid, that he hoped that looking at the Reports published from year to year, of what had been done by the Commissioners, their great usefulness would be acknowledged on all hands. The Church itself had been benefited to the extent of £90,000 or £100,000 a year, while an enormous amount of spiritual destitution had been relieved. Considering that Parliament had interfered, and appointed paid officers to see that the property of the Church was properly managed, and the spiritual wants of the country were properly provided for, the least they could do was to continue this very moderate grant, bearing in mind that the greatest part of the expense came out of the funds of the Church.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he quite admitted that the Commission had been of service to the Church, and that was the reason why he opposed the Vote and insisted that the Church and not the country should pay the expenses of the Commission. He did not at all object to the Commission; in fact, he wished that its powers were enlarged, so that it might have the entire management of all the property of the bishops and deans and chapters, in addition to that part of the property of the Church over which it had already control, because he felt that then that property would be more valuable than at present.
§
Motion made and Question put,
That a sum, not exceeding £2,548, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum required to
319
defray a portion of the expenses of the Ecclesiastical Commissioners for England to the 31st day of March, 1858.
§ The Committee divided: Ayes 147, Noes 54: Majority 93.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (5.) £11,080, Charity Commission.
§ MR. W. EWARTsaid, that the Charity Commissioners had done a great deal of good. They had recovered £800,000 to the country through these charities, and had framed many excellent schemes which would be of great advantage in promoting the education of the people. But the Commissioners were thwarted and cramped in their operations for want of further powers. There were no less than 18,000 small charities, producing only, on an average, £10 a year each, but the aggregate amount arising from which was not less than £58,000 a year. The Commissioners had not the power to set proceedings in the case of these charities in motion. They could move the County Courts; but they could not act themselves. He trusted to be able before the recess to bring this subject under the notice of the House, so that further powers might be given to the Commissioners. Another great evil was that under the Act, known as the Grammar School Act, schoolmasters had too great a power given them in retaining their situations, so that they could set the Commissioners at defiance.
§ MR. HENLEYsaid, the powers of the Commissioners were large already, and he entered his protest against giving the Commissioners any of the powers of the Court of Chancery, so as to enable them to alter the appropriation of charities. The Commissioners were doing a very good work at present.
§ MR. BAILLIEremarked, he should be glad to know what the Commissioners were doing. He was inclined to believe that with their present power they had very little opportunity of doing good. The Commission was a very expensive one, and the House ought to know what results it had accomplished.
§ MR. BAINESIf the hon. Member had read the last Report of the Commissioners he would have seen that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Henley) was fully warranted in saying that within the scope of their powers they were doing a great deal of good. That Report set forth the orders made by the Commissioners and the advice they tendered to persons interested in these charities. By the Chari- 320 table Trusts Act power was given to trustees, when any legal difficulty as to the administration of the funds in their hands arose, to apply to the Commissioners for advice, and he found it stated in the last Report of the Commission that 1,007 different cases had been brought before them in the course of the year 1856, with that object. It was quite clear, therefore, that a vast amount of good was effected by the Commissioners in that respect.
§ MR. W. EWARTsaid, he was of opinion that the only mode of emancipating charities from the present state of thraldom, was by extending in a moderate degree the power of the Commissioners. By that means those charities would be emancipated, a cheaper mode of administering them would be secured, while the intentions of the founders would be in no respect contravened. Surely the Commissioners might safely be entrusted with the same powers as those already given to the County Court Judges and other Judges of the Court of Bankruptcy.
§ MR. HENLEYmaintained that in those cases, in which the exercise of a judicial power was called for, it ought to be exercised by a court of justice in the face of day.
§ MR. A. W. KINGLAKEsaid, that in order to prove the importance of the functions which the Commissioners discharged, he would instance a case in which a suit had that very day been heard in the House of Lords for the purpose of recovering property amounting to £60,000, which sum a private individual, believing it in reality belonged to a particular charity, had prevailed on the Commissioners to certify, as constituting a proper subject for the institution of legal proceedings.
§ MR. MONCKTON MILNESsaid, he was of opinion that the limits of the Commissioners' duties might with great advantage to the public be extended to the control of larger sums of money than they were at present enabled to administer.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (6.) £1,911, Statute Law Commission.
§ MR. WHITESIDEsaid, he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the circumstance that while the Commission figured in the Estimates as one of only a temporary character, the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Home Department had upon a former occasion stated, in answer to a question which had been put to him as to the probable duration of the labours of the Commission, that 321 it would have work for many years to come of a nature similar to that which it had already undertaken. Now, he (Mr. Whiteside), for one, had no faith in the labours of the Commission, and he should very much like to know what advantage the country was to derive from the money which they were asked to expend in connection with it. He found from a letter which had been written by its Secretary, and which was dated the 6th of January, 1857, that a classification of the whole contents of the statute book, with a, view chiefly of faciliating the work of consolidation, had been commenced and was expected to be completed in about six mouths; but the six months had expired without any such result, as far as he could see, having been brought about. He had only to add, that if the labours of the Commission resulted in producing a set of measures for Ireland distinct from those which they sought to apply to England, he should offer to any such scheme a determined opposition. There was very little difference between the laws in both countries, and he thought an opportunity was at present afforded to imperialize the statute law which ought not to be passed over.
§ Vote agreed to; as was also (7,) £4,924, Civil Service Commission.
§ (8). £3,524, Temporary Commissions.
§ MR. WISEsaid, that a rumour prevailed in certain circles, and had obtained a wide circulation, to the effect that the Government were prepared to disregard the Report of the Commission which had been appointed to inquire into the subject of a site for the National Gallery, and to remove that Gallery to Kensington; and he wished, therefore, to ask the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government were prepared to adopt the Report of that Commission?
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERIf the hon. Gentleman had not given importance to a rumour which is wholly unauthenticated by alluding to it in his place in this House, I should have considered that that rumour was deserving of little notice. I can, however, assure him that the Report of that Commission has not yet been presented. (Murmurs of dissent.) Well, I have not seen a copy of it, and am ignorant of its contents, and I can only say that the Government have come to no decision upon the subject.
§ MR. WISEsaid, he was astonished at the reply of the right hon. Gentleman, 322 which was by no means satisfactory. The question which he wished to put was, whether Her Majesty's Government intended to act upon the Report of the Commission, and to adopt it as presented?
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that he believed he was the only Member of the Government who had seen the Report, and he had not had time to read it. He had, however, received a copy of it, and also letter from Lord Brougham, the Chairman of the Commission, stating that they had as yet been unable to append to the Report the documentary evidence connected with it. When the Report in a complete state was in the hands of the Government, it would be laid before Parliament; but at present it was impossible for him to say what conclusions would be drawn from it, but he had no doubt that it would receive the fullest consideration.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERWhen I see the Report I shall be able to state the intentions of the Government with regard to it; but at present we have not come to any conclusion upon the subject.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he had received a letter from Lord Broughton transmitting the Report of the Commissioners, but a sufficient number had not yet been printed for circulation. Two other copies had since been sent to the Home Office, in order that the usual steps might be taken for presenting the Report to Parliament; but Lord Broughton stated that it was so far incomplete that they were not able to print the evidence on which the Report was founded. Until the Report, with the evidence, was in the hands of the Government, it was impossible that the Government could state what steps would be taken. No delay would be incurred in laying the Report before Parliament.
§ MR. AYRTONsaid, that what the Committee desired was a pledge from the Government not to do anything to remove the National Gallery without the sanction of Parliament. On former occasions it had been found that the Committee could not reject Estimates presented by the Government without causing a breach of faith with individuals to whom the Government had placed themselves under contract.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that surely no pledge was necessary. No steps could be taken to build a new National Gallery without the vote of the House. The question almost answered itself.
§ MR. CONINGHAMsaid, he would avail himself of the opportunity of stating that unless, between this and next Session of Parliament, some arrangement was entered into by which the Royal Academy were compelled to vacate the space occupied by it in the National Gallery, and which he conceived belonged to the nation, he should feel it his duty to take the sense of the House upon it.
§ In reply to Mr. GRIFFITH,
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, the Decimal Coinage Commissioners had made their Report, and it had been laid on the table. It was of considerable size, and hon. Gentlemen who took an interest in the subject would, no doubt, derive great instruction from reading it.
§ MR. WALPOLEsaid, that as a member of the Registration of Titles Commission, he wished to press upon the Government the propriety of considering during the recess whether they would not bring in some measure early in the next Session upon the subject. The Report being very voluminous, as well as involving very difficult questions, it required mature consideration, and it would be unreasonable to expect Her Majesty's Government to give any opinion upon it during the present Session; but feeling a deep interest in the subject, and believing it was highly important to the social interests of the country, he would feel it his duty, if the Government did not undertake it, to bring the whole subject under the consideration of Parliament at the commencement of the next Session.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that he could conscientiously compliment the Commissioners on this result of their labours, and promised that their Report should receive very careful consideration.
§ Vote agreed to.
§
(9.) Motion made and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £20,988, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum required to defray the Fees, Salaries, Expenses, and Compensations, payable under the provisions of the Patent Law Amendment Act, to the 31st day of March, 1858.
§ MR. MOWBRAYsaid, he would beg to ask for some explanation of this Vote.
MR. WILSONsaid, the income derived from stamps on patents was £91,000, 324 whereas the entire Vote was £27,988 so that there was a considerable balance paid into the Exchequer. An additional building was required and this Vote was necessary to provide it.
MR. W. WILLIAMSexpressed his astonishment that £9,900 should be divided as fees on patents between the Attorney and Solicitor General, making the salaries of those officers from this source alone nearly equal to the salaries of the Judges. It was said that a former Attorney General had made as much out of the profits in fees on patents as the three Lord Chief Justices received in salaries. There was besides in this Vote an item of £920 salaries to the clerks of the law officers of the Crown, making a total of £10,820. He was quite sure the Committee would not sanction such a waste of the public money, and he therefore moved the reduction of the Vote by one-half that amount—viz, £5,410.
§
Motion made and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £15,578, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum required to defray the Fees, Salaries, Expenses, and Compensations, payable under the provisions of the Patent Law Amendment Act, to the 31st day of March, 1858.
§ SIR JOHN TROLLOPEsaid, it appeared by a foot-note that the sums expected to be received would exceed the sum voted by £10,000, but that £10,000 was a direct tax on the inventive ingenuity of the country—upon men often in humble, or at all events in middle life, who could ill afford to pay such large duties.
MR. WILSONremarked, that he thought it was rather hard upon the law officers of the Crown, who had voluntarily given up the most lucrative emoluments of their office for the purpose of carrying out an important amendment of the law, to be charged with extracting excessive fees from the ingenuity of the country. Formerly the law officers were entitled to a fee of £10 on each patent; but when the present Act was passed power was given to the Lord Chancellor to reduce the fees from time to time as he thought fit, and the fees had been reduced in four years from £10 to £3. Moreover, they formerly did nothing for the £10, but now for the £3 they had to examine every specification—a most onerous duty. These fees formed, in fact, the only salary which they received for their political offices. No doubt it was the intention of the Legislature that the fees should be fixed at such a point as would just cover the necessary expenditure, 325 in granting patents, but it was very difficult exactly to hit that amount, and, owing to the low charges, the number of patents had greatly increased, and the fees also had increased very much beyond the expenses of the establishment.
§ MR. PEASEsaid, that he hoped the House would take an early opportunity of reviewing the patent laws. He knew from his own experience that they operated most injuriously on the inventive talent of the country. Clever men were compelled to sell their patent rights to rich speculators; and he knew of one instance where a hon. Member of that House had paid £35,000 for patents necessary in the prosecution of his business. He was convinced that an alteration of the law would give a great impetus to inventive genius in this country.
§ COLONEL SYKESsaid, he would still maintain, notwithstanding the ingenious answer of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Wilson), that these fees were a heavy tax on the inventive industry of the country, and that the law officers of the Crown were benefited without rendering adequate services.
§ MR. HENLEYsaid, he would be glad, when the Report was brought up, to hear an explanation of the item for printing these specifications. If they were sold, the sum received for them ought to recompense the Government for the expense of printing. He also wished to ask for an explanation of the item of £8,100 for "incidental expenses."
MR. WILSONobserved, that he believed that a considerable portion of it had been spent in drawing and arranging plans and in printing specifications, which were now printed in full and sold to the public at very low prices. He would, however, make inquiry, and give a further explanation at a future time.
§ SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBYthought it would scarcely be fair to the law officers to reduce the Vote as proposed by the hon. Member for Lambeth. The Government ought to carry out the promise which they had made on a former occasion, to give the law officers a fixed salary in lieu of these emoluments, and then the question of fees could be properly considered.
§ MR. SPOONERasked how the £2,000 for the Kensington Museum, which appeared in the Vote, had been laid out, and what was the reason that Kensington had been chosen for the reception of the plan?
§ MR. WATKINsaid, that great benefit was conferred on working-men, through- 326 out the country by the information published by the Patent-office. Inventors might now easily ascertain what had been done before them. While desirous of giving every scope to the inventive talent of the country, he did not think that patents ought to be made too cheap, or the greatest confusion would ensue. The proper course was to fix a moderate charge, not too great for the poor labouring man to meet.
§ SIR DENHAM NORREYSsaid, that these compensations were still a tax upon the inventive genius of the people, and he thought that the salaries of officials should not be paid in that manner.
§ MR. SPOONERobserved, that the item of £2,000 was stated neither as an estimate nor an expenditure. Which was it? Again, he wished to know why so inconvenient a locality as Kensington had been selected for the exhibition?
MR. WILSONsaid, that the £2,000 had been expended, but £7,000 had been voted on account, and the expenditure was, therefore, authorized. The expenditure of £2,000 was in fitting up rooms.
§ Motion by leave withdrawn.
§ Original question again proposed.
§ MR. MOWBRAYsaid, he thought this expenditure of £2,000 was one not sanctioned by Parliament. It was like several others that had already come before the House during the present Session. He moved that the Vote be reduced by this sum of £2,000.
MR. WILSONsaid, that £7,000 were taken on account of this Vote as a whole, and it was impossible to say what particular part of the whole sum the £2,000 was.
§ MR. SPOONERsaid, he had distinctly asked, when the money was asked on account, whether any part of the sum was to be laid out at Kensington, and he was distinctly assured that no further sum was to be laid out there. Under these circumstances he thought the explanation of the hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Treasury so unsatisfactory, that he should support the Amendment of his hon. Friend.
§
Motion made, and Question put,
That a sum, not exceeding £18,988, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum required to defray the Fees, Salaries, Expenses, and Compensations, payable under the provisions of the Patent Law Amendment Act, to the 31st day of March, 1858.
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 73; Noes 156: Majority 83.
§ Original Question put and agreed to.
§
(10.) Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £8,843, be granted to Her Majesty, to complete the sum required to pay the Salaries and expenses of the Board of Fisheries in Scotland, to the 31st day of March, 1858.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that last year the Secretary for the Treasury stated that a, Commission should issue upon this subject, but he (Mr. Williams) did not know whether that Commission had issued. This was the most extraordinary continuation of a waste of the public money, next to the Vote under the Patent Law Amendment Act, that he had ever heard of. He had received a letter from a gentleman in Scotland, in which it was stated that the Scotch fisheries were of great national importance, and distanced all foreign competition, and were the last resource of hundreds of poor Celts, who would otherwise be unable to command the means of paying their rent. So that this Vote was clearly for the benefit of the landlords of Scotland, as it enabled the men engaged in the herring fishery to pay their rents. Some of the poor districts paid these expenses themselves, whilst the large places did not. A general inspector at Leith received £310 a year, and a little further on he found that there was an officer at Leith receiving a salary. At Greenock there was an assistant inspector who was paid £160 10s. a year, and an officer £120 10s. a year. Glasgow had also got an officer. To vote the money of England and Ireland for a purpose of this kind was discreditable. As he had stated, these fisheries of Scotland were in the highest condition, and distanced all foreign fisheries, and it was therefore too bad to call on them to vote money for the support of a Board. He should feel it his duty to divide the Committee against the whole of this sum, except £2,160, which was necessary to pay pensions. He should move to reduce the Vote to that amount.
§
Motion made, and Question proposed,
That a sum, not exceeding £2,160, be grantee to Her Majesty, to complete the sum required to pay the Salaries and Expenses of the Board o Fisheries in Scotland, to the 31st day of March 1858.
MR. WILSONsaid, the effect of the hon. Gentleman's Amendment would be to continue the pensions of persons who did no work, while he would leave without 328 salaries persons who were performing important duties. He (Mr. Wilson) had stated last year that the Government would appoint a Commission to inquire into this expenditure. That promise had been fulfilled; a Commission had been appointed, and their Report was upon the table of the House. The Vote was placed in the Estimates this year, in consequence of representations made to the Government that there was an extensive trade in herrings with foreign States, that contracts had been entered into for the supply of herrings with the Government brand, and that if the power of the Board were not continued, such contracts would be voided. He (Mr. Wilson) hoped therefore that the Committee would pass the Vote this year on this assurance that it was the last time it would appear upon the Estimates in the present form.
§ SIR J. TRELAWNYsaid, that in Cornwall they had no brand. This support was nothing less than protection in disguise.
§ MR. WISEinquired why, by this Vote, the commander of the Princess Royal cutter was allowed £200, and the commander of Her Majesty's steam vessel Jackal, £100, in addition to their ordinary pay?
§ SIR GEORGE PECHELLremarked, that he had suggested some time ago that the allowance to which the hon. Gentleman referred was made to the gallant officers as a compensation for their not having been sent to the Black Sea, where they might have earned some distinction. He thought it a reflection upon the service to which he belonged, that its officers should be mixed up with a charge for branding herrings.
§ MR. BLACKBURNsaid, there had been plenty of time this year to have adopted one of the plans proposed by the Government. He suspected that they had been subjected to some pressure from the hon. Members for the northern boroughs. However, he would recommend the Committee to take the hon. Gentleman at his word.
§ MR. BLACKsaid, that he did not understand the hon. Gentleman to say that the Vote would be withdrawn next year, but that it would appear under another form.
§ SIR CHARLES WOODstated, in reply to the question of Mr. Wise, that he was not aware of the circumstances under which the commanders of the Princess Royal and Jackal received the amounts included in the Vote. The 329 Princess Royal, he might observe, was not a vessel belonging to the Royal Navy; but he would make inquiry as to these items, and would answer the question of the hon. Gentleman on a future occasion.
MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, that he would withdraw his Amendment in consideration of the distinct pledge he had received from the Government.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Original Question put and agreed to.
§ House resumed; Resolutions to be reported To-morrow; Committee to sit again To-morrow.