SUPPLY—ADDITIONAL SEAMEN. (Hansard, 17 July 1857)

LORD ADOLPHUSVANE-TEMPEST
said, that the Vote of 2,000 additional men for the Navy naturally brought forward the whole subject of home defences. If he were to follow his own view of what was beneficial for the country, he should propose that the Chairman report progress. He did not know whether the exigencies 1769 of critical times in India made it a necessity that the Vote should be passed this evening, and as he was a comparatively inexperienced Member, he would not undertake, unless he were supported in his view, the grave duty of urging the postponement of the Vote. But as a Member of the House, and as an officer of the army, he could not refrain from bringing before the notice of the House the extraordinary position in which the country at this period stood with regard to the army. There had been considerable discussion upon the several wars into which we had been brought by the noble Lord at the head of the Government. He was one of those who supported the noble Lord in his Chinese policy, and his main reason for so doing was that he thought that the honour of the English flag should be maintained, and that officers in responsible situations at a distance should be upheld by the Government at home. He shared however in the feeling expressed by the right hon. Gentleman, the Member for Buckinghamshire, and agreed in thinking the tone the noble Lord had adopted that night, when he stated, as he had, that England was not at war with China, was very different from the tone he adopted on the momentous occasion which produced the late dissolution—a change which was not likely to meet with the same approval of the country. But what he wished to bring to the notice of the Committee was, that, simultaneously with the war in China; simultaneously with the expedition to Persia; simultaneously, if it could be proved, with warnings both from the Commander in Chief and the Governor General of India, of their uneasy sensations with regard to what they conceived to be an uncomfortable feeling in the Bengal Army—simultaneously with those three events, the noble Lord at the head of the Government had sanctioned an enormous diminution of the army and navy. The regiments of the army had been reduced by 150 or 200 men; the most efficient arm of the service, the artillery, had been reduced by 2,000 trained and practised men, and they were now recruiting young and inexperienced soldiers to fight the battles of England. It was a late hour to detain them—one o'clock; but he felt bound to state, and he believed events would corroborate his statement, that grave responsibility rested upon the Government for entering into wars which they conceived the policy of England 1770 required, at the same time that they determined to reduce the army to the extent they had done. The question which he wished to ask the noble Lord was, whether he intended to increase the army? He also wished to know what steps the Government intended to take in order to replace the 20,000 men who were about to proceed to India? The House had heard from different members of the Government the most contradictory statements with respect to the conveyance of our troops to India. One had stated that some were to be sent in sailing vessels and some in steamers; another that no steamers were to be employed as transports; while the First Lord of the Admiralty had instituted a comparison that evening between the capabilities of sailing vessels and steamers. Now, the question was not one of sailing vessels or steamers, but one of sailing vessels with auxiliary screws. Our merchants paid an increased freight for the advantage of placing their goods on board ships with auxiliary screws, because to them time was money, and he asked, was it not equally so to us in the present critical posture of affairs in India? The House was asked to vote 2,000 additional men for the navy; but no addition was to be made to the army, although a large military force was to be sent to India, and events might occur in Europe to render extremely dangerous the want of a sufficient number of troops in this country. He hoped that the House would not be prevented by the Government from discussing the defenceless state of the nation, and thinking that the present Vote would afford them an excellent opportunity of doing so, if postponed till some more convenient occasion, he moved that the Chairman report progress and ask leave to sit again.

§ SIR CHARLES WOOD
said, he could assure the noble Lord that he had not had (in his previous remarks) the slightest wish to prevent a discussion upon the state of our defences. What he had objected to was the raising of that important question incidentally upon a Motion for the adjournment of the House. He had already, in reply to a question from the hon. and gallant Member for West Norfolk, (Mr. Bentinck,) stated the reasons which induced him to ask for 2,000 additional men for the navy. A naval squadron was 1771 indispensably necessary in the Indian Ocean; and, in order to provide it with efficient crews, the House must authorize him to increase the seamen in our service by the number mentioned in the Vote. He hoped the noble Lord would not persist in his Motion for reporting progress.

§ ADMIRAL WALCOTT
said he was only sorry that the First Lord had not asked for 5,000 men instead of 2,000, because he was persuaded that our navy was far from being in a proper state of efficiency. The blockships referred to by the right hon. Baronet in the early part of the evening were, it was true, in a state of perfect order; but they were only four or five in number, and they were all we had for the defence of our coasts. We had four sail of the line in the Mediterranean, one at the Cape of Good Hope, one in the Indian Ocean, one in the Pacific, and one on the coast of Brazil; but to meet any sudden emergency we had not a single line of battle ship upon which we could depend. He considered that a fearful circumstance, and trusted that the Government would give it their earliest and most serious attention.

§ Mr. HENLEY
said he would beg to call the attention of the Government to the fact that now at twenty minutes past one o'clock there were thirty Orders on the list before they could get to the notices. He asked whether they were to sit there in perpetuo. He thought the Chairman ought to report progress.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, that if the Committee would agree to this Vote, he would postpone the other two till Monday.

§ ADMIRAL WALCOTT
also hoped the Committee would agree to the Vote.

§ SIR CHARLES WOOD
said, as there was no objection to the Vote itself, he trusted the House would assent to it, and any discussion upon the state of the national defences would be taken upon the Report.

COLONEL KNOX
warned the noble Lord at the head of the Government that if he took no steps to fill the vacancies caused by the abstractien of the troops which were to be sent to India, they might be placed in a most serious predicament. He could not see the way in which it was to be done.

§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTON
said, he hoped that the Committee would agree to these Votes, seeing that everything that had been said was in the direction of their 1772 approval. The gallant Officer opposite wished to know how the force about to be sent to India was to be replaced, but this Vote was for an augmentation to the navy, and therefore should, so far as it went, meet with his approval. With regard to the army, the intention of the Government was to commence recruiting as soon as possible, in order to supply the places of the men about to be sent to India. If that should not be found sufficient, it would then be for the Government to consider what further steps they should pursue. After the general approval expressed, he hoped that hon. Members would not further obstruct the present Vote.

ADMIRAL DUNCOMBE
said he was in favour of agreeing to the Vote.

§ SIR CHARLES NAPIER
said, that he had a great many observations to make on this question, and he hoped the noble Lord would persist in his Amendment.

§ MR. BENTINCK
said that he would not object to the Vote being taken now, if a distinct pledge were given that the Report should be brought up at such a period of the evening as would allow the matter to be fully discussed.

§ SIR CHARLES WOOD
assured the Committee that the Report should be brought up the first thing on Monday.