§ SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, he rose to move for returns relating to the reserved steamers and the steamers in commission at the various ports. He understood that the First Lord of the Admiralty intended to oppose his Motion on the ground that it would furnish to foreign Powers information which it would be wiser to keep from them. There was nothing, however, in the returns for which he asked that anybody who went down to Portsmouth, Plymouth, and other stations might not easily pick up, while the information was not known to the House of Commons; and therefore such a plea for withholding these particulars was wholly idle and fallacious. The only information given to the House respecting the Navy was comprised in the Estimates; and whether the money they voted was judiciously spent they had not the proper materials submitted to them for judging. Non-professional Gentlemen who looked at the Navy List would fancy that we had a respectable fleet, but in reality we had no fleet whatever for the defence of this country. The ships stationed at Sheerness, Chatham, Portsmouth, and Devonport, were wholly unfit for service, and were not manned at all, and there was not a screw line-of-battle ship among them. The few ships that we had on the home station ought at least to be efficient. With regard to our steamers we had several very bad vessels which were originally cut down; and out of the whole force in England we had not a single ship that, according to the notions of the present day, ought to be kept in commission. The Wellington was a fine three decker of the old style of shipbuilding, and the Formidable was in the same position; but as for the rest they were only fit to be broken up. Instead of having our worst ships stationed here in time of peace we ought to have our best. The expense of keeping a good ship in commission was not more than that of a bad one. At present the Navy was entirely denuded of men although a short time ago the First Lord of the Admiralty told the House that the Navy was so popular that he could not get rid of the men, and that when they were paid off they entered again immediately. Yet, an order having been sent down that the continuous service men who were entitled to their discharge after ten years' service might have their discharge at once if they though proper, not less than 1,500 men at Portsmouth 1112 claimed the privilege, and asked for their discharge. He was also told that all the first class boys, who had been trained with great care, and were getting useful, were offered their discharge as well as the apprentice boys, and that every one of them also took their discharge. He did not blame the Admiralty for this, but he was sure that if the House of Commons were asked for men for manning the Navy they would be happy to vote them to-morrow. A pamphlet on the state of the Navy had been published within the last few days, which was well worthy the attention of the House and the Government. At present the state of the Navy was worse than when the late war broke out. In the autumn of 1853 we had a small though efficient squadron of reserve, and we had more ships ready for sea than we had at present. He did hope that the Government would take some energetic steps to preserve us from the danger which at present menaced us from the small force both of men and ships in the home ports. He put it to the House; whether we were in a proper position. He admitted that on the foreign stations we had a respectable force; but we had not at home a sufficient force, nor could we get one for a long period, if any accident rendered a fleet necessary. The First Lord of the Admiralty, on moving the Navy Estimates, stated that this country had only forty-two steam line-of-battle ships, while France had forty, and he added that France, having 90,000 men available for that purpose, could man her fleet, while we could not. There were no ships in England from which to draught the men required to man a fleet, and it would be impossible to find them suddenly. He would, however, give the Government due credit for their management of the Coast Volunteers and the value of this source of supply. Instead of sending out screw ships to foreign stations he would recommend the Admiralty to send out sailing ships; for if it were found necessary to recall them they could not come home with the same rapidity as screw vessels. It appeared from a recent debate in another place that all the troops going to India were to be sent out in sailing vessels, and one noble Lord stated that sailing vessels would convey them faster than steamers. If so, why were we building screw steamers at an enormous expense? No doubt, there were delays in calling at the Cape and coaling, but if the screw vessels took the same course as the sailing vessels, and 1113 used their coals in a calm, there seemed no doubt that they would make quicker voyages. The Government, in sending sailing vessels to foreign stations, should also remember that if we were at war it would be a great advantage to an enemy to carry his steam force to our Colonies, when he would there have to encounter only sailing vessels. Where would the First Lord get men, in case of war, if our ports were blockaded, and our sailing vessels abroad were not able to get home? He blamed the Ministry for not asking for more men. He found by the Estimates that the number of our naval force amounted, in the present year, to 52,153 men; but, from that number, 5,700—the amount of those engaged in the coast-guard service—must be deducted; so that the number of effective men, including the marines, was not above 46,453. That he regarded as an insufficient force; and he must, therefore, urge upon the Government the expediency of taking active steps to remedy a state of things which he could not look upon in any other light than as dangerous to the safety of the country. Ships were like fortifications, and he would admit that it was impossible to find finer ships than some of those they had at present; but ships alone did not compose a navy, for they became utterly useless if they were not properly manned with well-skilled seamen; and, seeing that other countries were busily engaged in drilling their seamen and manœuvring their fleets, he contended it was high time for the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty to do something to place the navy of England upon an equally advantageous footing.
§ MR. BENTINCKseconded the Motion. He said the House and the country ought to feel themselves very much obliged to the hon. and gallant Admiral for directing their attention to the subject. As far as he (Mr. Bentinck) could judge, our navy, in its present state, could not be considered as efficient, even according to the details of the service which had upon a former occasion been furnished by the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty himself. Those details distinctly proved that our naval force was not now sufficient to meet the requirements of the country in case a war should unexpectedly break out. He could but lament the apathy which existed in that House on he subject of the defences of the country. He trusted the earnest attention of the 1114 Government would, therefore, be directed to the subject, and must say he was astonished to find that, while money was night after night voted for comparatively insignificant purposes in that House, the Estimates for the Navy were sought to be cut down to the lowest possible amount. After the speech of the hon. and gallant Admiral, he thought the right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty was bound to show that the naval strength of the country was amply sufficient to meet the event of a sudden emergency.
Motion made, and Question proposed, "That there be laid before this House a Return of the names and rates of the reserved Steamers at each port, their horse power, whether high or low pressure, screw or paddle, number of officers, men, and boys, engineers and stokers employed to take care of them, and how many were ready for Commission on the 1st day of June 1857:And, similar Return of the Steamers in Commission at the various ports, with their crews, how many coastguard men are borne on their books, the number of coast volunteers enrolled, and how many have been called out and drilled.
§ SIR CHARLES WOOD, who was very indistinctly heard, was understood to say, that he scarcely deemed it expedient to follow the hon. and gallant Admiral and the hon. Member for Norfolk into a discussion with respect to the general state of our naval force, upon a Motion such as that before the House, especially when he took into consideration the circumstance that when he had, a short time since, moved the Naval Estimates, he had entered largely into detail in connection with the subject. He had, upon that occasion, stated that he thought the number of men which he asked the House to sanction would be found to be sufficient, and he did not think that anything had since occurred in reference to our relations with foreign countries which rendered it expedient that that number should be increased. The number of seamen and boys which had been voted for the service was 33,000, while the number of marines was 15,000, making a total of 48,000 effective men, and not 46,453, as the hon. and gallant Admiral had observed. That number was exclusive of the coast-guard, which amounted to 5,700 men, and taking all the circumstances of our position into account, he saw no good reason why the country should be put to the expense of maintaining a larger force. We had, it was true, this year, no home squadron or squadrons of evolution, but that was owing, as he had before stated, to the fact that we were 1115 engaged in hostilities with China. The Government had not deemed it desirable, in the absence of a large portion of our fleet in that quarter, to ask Parliament for money to constitute a home squadron, bearing in mind that, when those hostilities were at an end, the fleet would return, and constitute a squadron of that nature, without the necessity of having recourse to any additional expenditure for the purpose. He might also remind the House that we now possessed a larger naval force than had ever yet been voted by Parliament in a time of general peace. If a war should unexpectedly break out, he believed that the country possessed a fleet quite able to cope with any force which was likely to be brought against it. The Government were the best judges of the chances of war, and it certainly was not desirable in time of peace, and with no prospect of a conflict, to keep up such a naval or military establishment as it might be expedient to maintain if the country were on the eve of war. He found in certain correspondence which took place in the reign of Louis XV., a maxim laid down which was well worthy of attention, It was, Do anything but go to war with England: keep her in a state of alarm, so that she may think it necessary to keep up an enormous army and navy, and that will exhaust the resources of any country. That maxim involved a caution Worthy of being attended to. He would assure the House that if the Government thought it necessary to increase the number of men they would at once come down to it; and he was sure that no British House of Commons would ever refuse to vote the number of men which the Government might deem necessary in case of emergency for the safety of the country. He was glad that the hon. and gallant Admiral had spoken in terms of praise of the system which had been established with regard to the Coast Volunteers, because he believed that that system tended to provide a good reserve of seamen. With regard to the returns moved for by the hon. and gallant Admiral, he could only say that whatever information any foreign Government might derive, with regard to the force of this country, from private sources, it was a universal rule not to publish any official statement upon the subject, and, therefore, he felt it to be his duty to oppose the Motion.
§ MR. LINDSAYobserved, that he thought that so far from any danger resulting 1116 from foreign powers being made acquainted with the number of ships which this country had at her disposal, it would be a great safeguard, because he believed that such a list would be shown as would make any power think twice before venturing to come into collision with them. He did not believe, however, that there were a sufficient number of ships in commission at present to defend the shores of the country.
ADMIRAL DUNCOMBEremarked, that he entirely disagreed with all the observations of the hon. and gallant Admiral. He thought our ships were sufficiently numerous, and that they were in an efficient state for the protection of the country. He denied that the late Government had built ships without bottoms, that could neither fight nor run. He for one did not wish to see ships run away, and, as for fighting, the hon. and gallant Admiral had given them little chance of doing that when he had a fleet under his command.
§ GENERAL THOMPSONsaid, he could not hear the subject of manning the navy discussed, without suggesting that more use might be made of the corps of Marines; and in excuse for speaking in the presence of "great ammirals" and sea kings, he would note that he had himself risen to the rank of mate of the watch and prize-master, and therefore knew a sailor from a marine. The service of the Marines was very popular in the country; in proof of which, they had their choice of recruits, and consequently the finest men to be anywhere seen. The prestige of the British Navy extended to the inhabitants of the interior, and men who had no chance of engaging as seamen, entered into the Marines. This opened an almost unlimited power of adding to the men for naval service, provided the Marines were trained, as they might be, for the object in view; and it implied no necessary increase of either men or money, for a battalion of Marines was as capable of service in a garrison as a battalion of infantry. If there should ever be a drawn naval battle in the Mediterranean, the Baltic, or the Channel, and both parties, after having perhaps a third of their men disabled, fell back on their depôts to see which could reflt for sea the soonest, what possible reinforcement could be so prompt and effectual as finding a battalion of Marines at Malta, Corfu, and Gibraltar, or at Sheerness, Portsmouth, and Plymouth, provided 1117 these men were trained for such an Emergency? And what would be the training an admiral in such circumstances would desire? Clearly that they should be Marine Artillery. Why should not the Marines be Marine Artillery? At present the navy had a certain number of Marines per gun, and they were trained to work the guns. Would any admiral, in the emergency described, object to having their number doubled? While on this subject he would suggest that there were many passed midshipmen, who, seeing no prospect of obtaining the rank of lieutenant in the navy, would be glad to accept the rank of ensign in the Marines; and he would leave it to any sea-officer to say, how superior the services of an officer of this kind would be, for instance in boats on a boarding-party, to those of a boy who had not his sea legs, and must be helped on board instead of helping anybody else. In some of this he saw matter of useful consideration.
§ SIR JAMES ELPHINSTONEsaid, he thought they had got beyond the range laid down by the hon. and gallant Admiral. The great question to which they ought to confine their attention was to get men—of ships they had sufficient. They were now carrying on war, and it was clear it would be impossible to recall men from China if they were suddenly wanted. He could not but characterise as reckless the way men had been discharged from the navy, and the way in which fine ships had been put out of commission, and worthless sailing vessels sent out in their place. It would now be difficult to recover those men for the country if any untoward circumstances should arise to require them. The order of the Admiralty to give continuous-service men their discharge had had the effect, in the case of the Orion in the Gulf of Mexico, of obliging the captain to grant the discharge of men who had been guilty of insubordination, by coming to the quarter-deck and demanding it in a body.
§ MR. HANKEYsaid, he rose to move the adjournment of the House, in consequence of the length of time hon. Members had been kept in attendance.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."
§ SIR CHARLES WOODhoped his hon. Friend would not press his Motion until the subject then before the House had been disposed of.
§ SIR CHARLES NAPIERthen replied, 1118 but was almost inaudible. He said that an hon. and gallant Member had used words which were ungentlemanlike and dishonourable in reference to him. The fact was that he had copied the number of the men in the navy from the Estimates.
ADMIRAL DUNCOMBEsaid, he rose to order, and to call the attention of the Speaker to these unparliamentary expressions.
§ MR. SPEAKERThe use of those words by the hon. and gallant Admiral certainly escaped my notice; but I cannot doubt that his attention having been directed to them he will withdraw those expressions, which are, as the hon. and gallant Admiral must know, quite unparliamentary.
§ SIR CHARLES NAPIERThe House must remember that I received very severe provocation. The hon. and gallant Member reflected on my conduct when commanding in the Baltic, and said I had given the fleet no opportunity of fighting, whereas he must have known perfectly well that it was impossible. If the House is of opinion that I ought to withdraw these expressions I will do so.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn; Question put and negatived.
§ SIR CHARLES NAPIERsaid, there had been a mistake. He thought Mr. Speaker had been putting the Motion for adjournment.
§ MR. HANKEYsaid, he should again press his Motion for adjournment.
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That this House do now adjourn."
§ The House divided:—Ayes 140; Noes 54: Majority 86.
§ House adjourned at a Quarter before One o'clock.