§ Order for Third Reading read.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the third time."
§ MR. KNIGHTsaid, he rose to complain of the treatment which the Select Committee that had been appointed to inquire into this Bill had received. Upon one very important question the Committee had arrived at a decision by a majority of eight to three, that question being to alter the agreement with the Charity Commissioners. The Bill stood on the paper for Thursday last, and as he wished to make some alteration in Committee he had spoken on the subject to the right hon. Gentleman who had charge of the Bill. That right hon. Gentleman had told him that he did not think that it would come on that night, and he had induced him to put his intended alteration upon the paper. There was, he confessed, no agreement that the Bill should not come on that night, but the right hon. Gentleman had told him that he did not think that it would. He had, therefore, been much surprised to find out afterwards that the Bill had come on, and, by means of a private whip conducted by the fellows of the college, the decision at which the Select Committee had arrived had been overruled. Now, it was the general custom of that House to support their Select Committees, and certainly Select Committees would be useless if their decisions were to be bouleversé in the way in which the decisions of this Select Committee had been. In justice, therefore, to the Members of that Committee, and in order that they might have an opportunity of discussing the clauses, he begged to 1368 move that the order for the third reading of the Bill be discharged with a view to the re-committal of the Bill.
§ MR. COXseconded the Motion. He had been in the House on Tuesday morning when the Bill was called on, but he never expected that it would be proceeded with. Some whispering, however, took place at the table, and he had been much surprised to find afterwards that the result of that whispering had been to raise the salaries which had been proposed by the Select Committee very considerably. Thus, the salary of £760 to the master had been increased to £1,015; £570 a year to the warden, to £855; £236 for the two senior fellows, to £500; £196 to the third and fourth fellows, to £466; and as he objected most strongly to the appropriation of large sums of money in such a manner, he certainly should support the Motion.
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the words "That the" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "said Order be discharged," instead thereof.
§ MR. BAINESsaid, he wished to state in a few words what had really taken place with regard to this subject. The hon. Member for Worcestershire (Mr. Knight) was mistaken in supposing that he had told him that the Bill would not come on on Thursday evening; what he had stated was, that it would not come on till late, and he had advised him to put his alteration upon the paper with the view of bringing it on at a subsequent stage of the Bill. Now, what were the facts of the case? Certain gentlemen derived certain emoluments from the College at Dulwich to which they were as much entitled as any gentleman was to his own estates. The present Bill abolished the offices held by those gentlemen, and it was clear that the only fair compensation which could be made to them was to pay them the full amount of the salaries which they had been receiving. That was the view taken by the Charity Commissioners, by the House of Lords, and by that House on Friday morning last, when the Bill passed through Committee. The hon. and learned Member for Wallingford (Mr. Malins) moved that these allowances be restored on the ground that an express compact had been entered into between the officers of the College and the Charity Commissioners in virtue of which the former had consented to waive their opposition to the Bill. It also appeared that by this bargain the master, warden, 1369 and fellows only received the exact value of their interest taken at the present moment without a farthing of profit. It appeared to be the opinion of one or two hon. Members who spoke that such an arrangement was perfectly fair, and he was also convinced that no injustice would be done in adopting the terms now restored to the Bill. The compact with the Charity Commissioners would not be binding on Parliament, but it was clear that the Bill would never have been agreed to by the officers of the college, unless they were to receive the value of their interest in their offices. He trusted he had now vindicated his own conduct. He said he would bring the Bill forward if possible on the night in question, and he trusted after this explanation that the House would consent to the Motion he now made, that the Bill be read a third time.
§ MR. MALINSsaid, he did not think his hon. Friend (Mr. Knight) had any just ground of complaint against the course which had been taken the other night by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster (Mr. Baines), or that that right hon. Gentleman had any intention of smuggling the Bill through the House. The master, warden, and fellows of the college made a compact with the Charity Commissioners. Those who opposed them went before a Committee of the House of Lords, and the Committee decided against them. In 1857 the Bill was again brought into the House of Lords, and the House of Lords had recognised the claim of these officers to the compensation now given to them by the Bill, and he had satisfied the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Baines) that either the bargain must be fulfilled or the Bill withdrawn.
MR. LYGONsaid, he could very well understand why the master, warden and fellows had received this Bill so willingly, because it continued their allowances at a maximum rate, it gave them large compensations of £300 and upwards, in lieu of residence, &c., at college, and it released them from residence, celibacy, and the inability to take other preferment. The officers of the college had been bribed by these enormous pensions, but the Bill had not yet received the full consideration to which it was entitled.
MR. HEADLAMsaid, the scheme had been fully considered in Committee when he had voted for the salaries which now stood in the Bill. He believed that it would be a great injustice to pass this 1370 measure unless the House ratified the compact with the Charity Commissioners. He thought also that scheme, if carried out, would be most beneficial to all parties.
§ MR. HENLEYsaid, he had, on Thursday night, protested against the Bill being proceeded with at so late an hour as between one and two o'clock. The very unusual course had then been taken of reversing a decision of the Select Committee on the subject of compensation, without any notice of that change having appeared on the papers. He gave no opinion on the question of the amount of compensation, but he thought the example set in reversing a decision of a Select Committee without notice was a very bad one; and he trusted that in future the Chairman of Committees would object to allow such a course to be taken. His opinion rather was that the change made in the Bill was a good one; but that did not justify the course taken on Thursday.
§ MR. GREERsaid, he thought the best course which the House could adopt would be to assent to the recommitment of the Bill, inasmuch as the House had been in some measure taken by surprise, and the merits of the subject with which it dealt had not been fully discussed.
§ MR. JOHN LOCKEsaid, if the Bill were recommitted the probability was that the Bill would not pass this Session. This matter had been in agitation for fifteen years, but it had been thrown over from time to time, and if the Bill were recommitted it would be thrown over again; such a result would be much to be regretted as he thought that the arrangement which the Bill proposed to carry into effect must be regarded as one of an advantageous character.
MR. W. WILLIAMS, while disapproving of the course that had been taken on Thursday, would support the Bill, feeling that it was most important it should pass this Session.
§ Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."
§ The House divided:—Ayes 63; Noes 36: Majority 27.
§ Question again proposed.
§ MR. KNIGHTsaid, he must renew his protest against the Bill as it stood, as calculated to perpetrate one of the grossest acts of plunder in the case of a charity for the poor which had for many years been committed. The master, warden, and fellows had been for years fattening on what they had plundered from the poor, and they were now 1371 about to reward them for so doing. To give the House an idea of the way in which the funds of the charity were perverted and dissipated by the master, warden, and fellows, he begged to call attention to a statement given in evidence before the Select Committee on the part of the Rev. Charles Howes, First Fellow of the College, of the income and advantages he derived from his position there, from which it appeared, on the showing of that gentleman himself, that he had among other luxuries, "two good sitting rooms, two good bed rooms, rent free, and kept in good order and repair by the college, and well situated in every particular; full board, breakfast, lunch, dinner, &c., and every refreshment called for, including wine." He had also the "attendance of a butler, footman, and housemaid, services of cook and under cook, plate, and dinner linen, &c., all kept in good order and supplied freely when wanted." Coals and candles he had likewise to any extent wanted, and his rates und taxes were paid by the College. Why, John Sadlier had the decency to go and hang himself rather than boast of the enormous sums of money he had been receiving from the unfortunate shareholders of the Tipperary Bank. He (Mr. Knight) knew it was perfectly useless further to oppose this gross iniquity on the part of the master, warden, and fellows. He had opposed it to the best, of his ability, and he now gave way with a feeling of shame that so scandalous a system should have been for a moment tolerated by an English House of Commons.
§ MR. COXsaid, he for one would not give way if the hon. Gentleman who had last spoken chose to do so, and he would therefore move the adjournment of the debate.
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That the debate be now adjourned."
§ The House divided:—Ayes 21; Noes 57: Majority 36.
§ Question again proposed.
MR. LYGONsaid, he was so strongly opposed to the Bill that he felt himself justified in moving the adjournment of the House.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."
§ SIR G. GREYsaid, he could not see what the object of an adjournment could be. No Amendment could now be made in the Bill, and the House was quite competent to say whether it should pass.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, that was a very inconvenient mode of proceeding; but if the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lygon) liked it, the Members of the Government would stay in their places as long as the hon. Gentleman pleased. The House was competent to say "aye" or "no" to the Motion for the third reading of the Bill, and, until that was done, there the Members of the Government were and there they would stay.
§ MR. MALINSsaid, these attempts to oppose the further progress of the Bill by dividing the House on Motions for adjournment, first of the debate and then of the House itself, were unconstitutional and detrimental to the dignity of Parliament for a small minority to attempt to override the sense of the House in that manner.
§ MR. COXsaid, in making the Motion for the adjournment of the debate he had but followed the example which the hon. and learned Member for Wallingford (Mr. Malins) himself had set him on another occasion, when it suited his purpose to have recourse to it a few nights ago.
MR. LYGONsaid, he would withdraw his Motion in deference to the wish of a majority of the House. The hon. and learned Member for Wallingford (Mr. Malins) had hinted that such a Motion was unconstitutional; be that as it might, he (Mr. Lygon) thought nothing could be more unconstitutional than the way in which this Bill had been smuggled through the House.
§ Motion, by leave, withdrawn.
§ Main Question put, and agreed to:— Bill read 3° and passed, with Amendments.