§ House in Committee.
§ (1). £6,912, British Embassy Houses abroad.
§ MR. WISEobserved, that though the 273 Vote had been assented to by the Committee to which it had been referred, and of which he was a member, he still regarded it as an unsatisfactory one. Fortunately there was little likelihood that the circumstances which had given rise to it would occur again. There had been for a long series of years a profligate expenditure on account of the Embassy House at Paris, but the matter had been thoroughly sifted by the Committee up stairs, and there was reason to hope that the President of the Board of Works would exercise such control and supervision as would prevent the recurrence of similar evils for the future. The Committee had, therefore, looked more to the future than the past, and in their investigation sought to prevent abuses, rather than inculpate the agents of the past. The amount claimed by Mr. Albano, £3,217, for superintending the expenditure of £11,763, was very large; but his presence being required to counteract the systematic imposition which had previously prevailed, the charges were such as he was fairly and professionally entitled to make, and had been sanctioned by Lord Cowley, Lord Clarendon, and by the Board of Works. Mr. Albano had to contend with many difficulties, and with the greatest opposition from the previous Clerk of the Works, and even from the Ambassador's own establishment, one of whom had been permitted to contract for the fuel used at the Embassy, but whose account was reduced from 1,942 francs to 1,458. The valuable plate, which cost several thousand pounds, had been allowed to fall into a neglected state, and upwards of £200 was required to replace what was missing or useless. Mr. Albano, by his supervision, reduced accounts amounting to £8,513 to £6,858, and put a stop to the system of overcharging. Whilst he did justice to Mr. Albano, he must condemn the system which had been pursued by the Board of Works. No proper estimate had been made, money had been paid on account to the architect, and when the expenses had been incurred, Parliament was applied to. He hoped, however, that such irregularities would not occur again. What had taken place with reference to this Embassy, appeared a mystery. In 1815 the Government purchased the house, gardens, stables, and furniture for £36,000. In 1825–6, Messrs. Wyatt and Smirke superintended an outlay of £25,000. In 1843, £8,320 were voted; in 1844, £3,892; in 1853–4, 274 £9,213; and this year £5,078, was required. Besides these sums, an average amount of £1,000 had been expended every year, making a total of £127,503. In 1850, Mr. Burton visited the house, and was of opinion that dilapidation did not exist, and that the premises appeared in a state not unworthy the character of the country; and yet in 1852, Mr. Albano called for £11,763, which, in addition to £3,217 claimed by the architect, makes £14,980 expended within the last three years. And yet, after this outlay, what was the statement made up stairs a few days ago. In reply to questions put to Mr. Albano, he stated that the structure was in such a state that £20,000 would not suffice to put it in proper order; that the timber work was of a most rotten and defective construction; that the doors and windows were rotten, and that there was not a floor upon which he could reckon. This condition of affairs was hardly to be wondered at, when it was considered how little care was bestowed upon the preservation of this species of public property. A striking example of this was presented in the fact, that after the departure of the last Ambassador, the private property of that nobleman was sold at a public auction, which was allowed to be held in the State apartments of the Embassy House, while the costly carpets and satin sofas and chairs were left wholly unprotected from the damage consequent upon an influx of the populace of Paris. The architect found the rooms dirty, the carpets extremely damaged, and stated that he had reported upon the auction as one of the causes of the mischief that ought not to have been allowed. He (Mr. Wise) thought what had occurred in this respect ought to be a lesson to the Government not to purchase Embassy Houses on the Continent. It would be better to make an allowance to the Ambassador of even £2,000 a year extra for a house, than to continue such wasteful expenditure and to incur such uncertain expenses. A portion of this Vote was for the decoration of the dining-room as a chapel. During the last three years £1,600 had been paid for moving the chapel from room to room. He thought it was inconvenient and undesirable to have the service at the Embassy, and he regretted that the offer of the late Bishop Lascombe to sell his chapel in the Rue d'Aguesseau had not been accepted. For one year's annuity of £1,000, the Government would have 275 obtained a chapel that had cost £10,000. The charges incurred for the Embassy House at Madrid offered another instance of the glaring defect of the system that had been pursued at the Board of Works. In 1848 the Government took a lease of an old house for twenty years, and spent £3,000 upon repairs. The rent was £400 a year, but charges were perpetually arising, and Mr. Albano had been twice to Madrid, so that no less a sum than £756 had been paid to that gentleman for travelling expenses and professional allowances, incidental to the superintendence of an expenditure of £574 upon a house that was designated as half-built with mud, with sunken foundations, and in such a state that it might come down any day. He really trusted that this sytem would be reformed, and that an architect receiving four guineas a day would not be sent to Madrid to superintend such works as had been described.
MR. STAFFORDsaid, he rose to protest against an insinuation attempted to be cast upon the late Sir William Molesworth, when the present estimate was last before the Committee. Although he had differed in politics from the right hon. Baronet, he could not be silent while an injustice was apparently done to his memory. No doubt a vicious system had hitherto been pursued in the Public Works Department; but a careful examination of the matter had convinced him that no blame whatever for that state of things fairly attached to the late Sir William Molesworth.
§ SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, that on a former occasion he had certainly alluded to the bad system which prevailed in the office, with which he was connected, for years before he held his present situation, and expressed his determination to put an end to that system; but nothing could have been further from his thoughts than the intention to cast any reflection upon the right hon. Baronet who had preceded him in his department. He was now endeavouring to correct the undoubted defects of the system, and hoped to be able next year to present these estimates in a form that would prove satisfactory to the House.
§ SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFEwas glad to find that the old system was amended.
§ MR. HENLEYsaid, that while it was clear from the Report of the Committee that the business of the office under consideration had been conducted in a very unsatisfactory manner, nothing very de- 276 finite had been indicated to the Committee which held out a prospect of the future amendment of the system. It appeared that nobody was responsible for whatever happened to the property at the Embassy Houses; and if the whole of their contents were walked away some fine morning, no person, he apprehended, could be held answerable for the loss. It was somewhat extraordinary that private individuals could have buildings erected in Paris without any of the difficulties encountered by those who acted for our Government; and, indeed, the allegations made on that head implied the prevalence, in that gay capital, of an almost universal system of villany where the expenditure of public money was concerned. He hoped to hear from the right hon. Gentleman the First Commissioner of Works what arrangements were contemplated for the future. He certainly thought it quite unnecessary that an architect of eminence should be sent over to Paris merely to superintend the repair of floors and matters of that kind, which might be effected under the direction of a person of very inferior ability.
§ SIR BENJAMIN HALLsaid, that as soon as the Session of Parliament closed, he intended to send to Paris one of the officers attached to his department, who would report to him what repairs were required in the structure of the Ambassador's house, and the only expense with which the country would be saddled would be the travelling expenses of that individual. He also intended to appoint a practical man as resident Clerk of the Works at Paris, who would be able to keep the house in repair with the assistance of tradesmen on the spot, and who would not receive a high salary.
§ MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he felt sufficient confidence in the right hon. Baronet to believe that under his control an end would be put to the discreditable state of things which had hitherto existed.
§ ADMIRAL WALCOTTsaid, he thought the Committee did not look at the architect's expenses fairly. He believed they had been the means of saving money instead of incurring a loss.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (2.) £827, British Protestant Cemetery, Madrid.
§ MR. WISEobserved that this Vote had also been referred to the Select Committee. In 1854, £1,400 had been voted for the purpose of a cemetery, and Mr. Albano had been sent over to Madrid to superintend 277 the building of a small lodge and a wall round the cemetery, on the understanding that he should receive £300 as full compensation for his services and travelling expenses. A few days after Mr. Albano arrived at Madrid the revolution broke out, and he was detained there six weeks. The Government, in consideration of the loss that gentleman sustained in his own business in consequence of his prolonged absence from this country, granted him an additional sum of £470; and although, under the circumstances, he (Mr. Wise) did not complain of that arrangement, he thought works of such insignificance might have been effected under the superintendence of some of the attachés of the embassy, or of the Consul at Madrid. We had at Madrid a Minister, a Secretary of Legation, several Attachés, and a Consul, who had little to do; and surely, if we employed our Minister and consuls in the United States in recruiting, it would not be unreasonable to ask our representative at Madrid to employ some local architect and inspect the building of a wall round the cemetery. The Committee upstairs had assented to this Vote as a fail compensation, but whilst they thought the charges reasonable, they thought it most unreasonable to send a person like Mr. Albano all the way to Madrid, merely to superintend the building of a wall round an acre of ground and of a lodge at the entrance to the cemetery.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (3.) £228,950, Disembodied Militia.
COLONEL NORTHsaid, it appeared from the Vote now before the Committee that the pay of the permanent staff of the militia was to be considerably reduced, and that the non-commissioned officers who had for the last two or three years been occupying very responsible positions were, as a reward for their services, to receive diminished pay. The pay of these non-commissioned officers had been—for a sergeant-major, 3s. a day; quartermaster sergeant, 2s. 6d.; colour sergeant, 2s. 5d.; sergeant, 1s. 10d. It appeared that, in future, the sergeant-majors were to receive only 1s. 10d., the quartermaster sergeants 1s. 8d., the colour sergeants and sergeants 1s. 6d. Now, if that plan were carried out the country would be in the same position in which it was at the time the militia were embodied two years ago, when there was not a militia staff throughout the kingdom worthy of the name of soldiers. The members of that staff received such trifling pay, 278 that most of them had been compelled to become petty dealers, and trafficked almost as hucksters. Now, the non-commissioned officers, during the last two years, had in the discharge of their duties given the utmost satisfaction to their commanding officers. Hon. Gentlemen were aware that they could not get what were called "hedge carpenters or hedge masons" to work on their estates for less than 3s. or 3s. 6d. a day, and yet it was proposed to give men who were persons of education, and who had filled most responsible situations, the miserable pittance of 1s. 10d. a day for performing duties of a most important and responsible nature. If that plan were carried out, could they expect, when the services of the militia were again required, to find in its ranks men worthy to fill the position of non-commissioned officers? He thought that every man who wore the uniform of the army ought to be placed under the orders of the Commander in Chief; but when the militia were embodied two years ago the officers who applied for instructions to the Home Secretary were referred by that right hon. Gentleman to the Horse Guards; they were sent by the Commander in Chief to the War Department, and months passed before they were able to obtain any instructions. At length a most able officer, Colonel Pierre-point, was appointed assistant adjutant general of the militia force. That officer had given universal satisfaction, but now, having filled the position for two years, and having become fully conversant with all the details of the office, he had received notice that the appointment was to be discontinued. In the case of the permanent staff of the militia no one but the full colonel could interfere with the adjutant; and the lieutenant colonel who had commanded a regiment for five years might, the day after it was disembodied, be refused admission to the barracks by the adjutant. He would ask hon. Members whether that was a state of things which should be longer allowed to exist? The next point to which he would call the attention of the Government was the position of the quartermasters. In some regiments quartermasters had been appointed, but in others the duty had been done by subalterns, who received an extra allowance, and only those men who had been commissioned as quartermasters were now to be placed on the permanent staff. There were some cases in which quartermasters had resigned and done the duty as subal- 279 terns, in order to receive double pay, and those men must of course be satisfied with the arrangement; but surely men who had refused the appointment of quartermaster because their commanding officers wished to have the benefit of their services as subalterns ought to be placed on the permanent staff. He understood that in future there were to be two sergeants to a company, but he would suggest that the number should be increased to three, or that there should be one sergeant and two corporals. If that extension of the permanent staff was not approved of there ought at all events to be an orderly clerk, an armourer, a sergeant-major, and a drum or bugle major to every regiment. The counties at present were obliged to find quarters for half the staff, and he wanted to know what was to become of the other half if they were to be allowed no billet-money. The militia ought to have the same advantages with regard to the price of rations as the line. He would next call the attention of the Government to some of the regulations respecting non-commissioned officers in the army. A corporal who had obtained three or four good service badges lost his 1d. a day for each of those badges directly he became a sergeant. In consequence of that rule, a corporal had refused his offer to be appointed sergeant, because his responsibility would be increased and his remuneration diminished. A sergeant's pay in the infantry was £2 17s. 6d. a month, a corporal's £2 2s. 6d. The deductions from the corporal's pay were £1, leaving him £1 2s. 6d.; and the deductions from the sergeants were £1 7s. 9d., leaving him £1 9s. 9d. But if the corporal had four good-conduct badges, he received, in addition to his pay, 10s., in all £1 12s. 6d., while the sergeant only received £1 9s. 9d. In the case of a sergeant in the cavalry the injustice was still greater, for, while a corporal with four badges received £1 18s. 9d. per month, a sergeant received only £1 3s. 3d. There was not a more worthy class of men in Her Majesty's dominions than the noncommissioned officers of the army, and they ought not to be treated in that manner. He therefore hoped the Under Secretary of War would be able to give some satisfactory explanation with respect to this gross injustice.
§ MR. PELLATTsaid, he was glad the subject had been fairly brought before the Committee for the injustice was so great as to call for immediate redress. No class 280 of men were so ill paid as the officers that had been referred to. Out of their small pay the sergeants had to pay 5d. a day for clothing, against 2d. a day paid by a corporal. Some of the latter, in consequence of good-conduct marks, as has been stated, get more daily pay than sergeants.
§ MR. FREDERICK PEELsaid, his hon. and gallant Friend (Colonel North) seemed not to be aware that the rate of pay of the disembodied militia was different from that of the embodied militia. When embodied, all ranks received the same rate of pay as the army; but when disembodied, the pay of the various ranks was not the same, and if we were to pay the staff of the disembodied militia the same as the embodied, it would follow as a necessary consequence that all ranks of the militia would claim to be paid the same. [Colonel NORTH: So they are.] No, that was a mistake. If it were so, the disembodied militia would cost a much greater sum than they now did. They had other sources of income besides their disembodied pay. Most of them received pay in the line, or pensions for their services in the line; and he saw no objection to a noncommissioned officer pursuing a trade in those intervals of time which were not required for military duty. An objection had been made as to the department by whom authority should be exercised over the militia when disembodied. When embodied it was under the authority of the Horse Guards; but when disembodied it was considered to be a sort of Parliamentary or constitutional force, and not a portion of the army. He did not see what advantage would arise from transferring it to the authority of the Horse Guards. The advantage of inspection had been referred to; but if the colonel of a militia regiment thought it necessary he could apply to the Horse Guards for an officer to make a periodical inspection; and he (Mr. Peel) should be very glad if, by that or any other means, the military spirit of the country could be kept alive. He had already stated the course which the Government intended to take as to quartermasters. Where they found a commissioned officer in the actual performance of duties, he would be placed upon the permanent staff. Had not that been done, those officers would have been left without any provision at all. It was very easy to say that they ought to increase the number of the permanent staff of the militia; but unless very cogent reasons were assigned for that recommendation 281 it would be impossible for the Government to agree to it. He did not believe that, under the present system, the duties to be performed by the permanent staff were more than would occupy the time of those already on the staff. Complaint was made by the hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Colonel North) that, under the present law, counties were compelled to provide quarters for half the permanent staff; but that was perfectly optional with the magistrates, for they might decline to provide anything beyond a secure store-house. But the permanent staff were, however, entitled to be billeted just the same as if the regiment were in an embodied state. He should be glad if the billet-money could be collected and applied to the supply of permanent quarters. It was said that there ought to be a drum or bugle-major on the permanent staff. He did not know exactly what would be the duties of drum-major in a disembodied regiment; but if it were merely to instruct the drummers, they might take the most expert of those and let him instruct the others, and with respect to the appointment of a sergeant-armourer there was at present a weekly sum allowed for the repair of arms. As to the subject referred to by the hon. Member for Southwark (Mr. Pellatt), he thought it quite impossible that a corporal should receive more than a sergeant. The pay of the one was 1s. 10d., of the other 1s. 4d. a day; and if a private served for thirty years, he would only then get on a level in pay with the sergeant. The regulation as to clothing had nothing whatever to do with the question. A sergeant was allowed, on retiring from the army, to add to his pension any additional pay which he might have earned as a private or corporal for good conduct, and in addition, to count his sergeant's services for extra pay. Supposing that a sergeant had served ten years as a private or a corporal, and received 2d. a day additional, and that he had served ten years as a sergeant, when he retired he would be entitled to add more pence to his pension on that account. It did seem a hardship to mulct the man in respect to his clothing; and he would certainly take that subject into consideration.
COLONEL NORTHsaid, he wished to know whether those members of the militia staff, to whom it seemed it would be open to sell and huckster, would be allowed to do so in uniform or not?
§ MR. FREDERICK PEELwas understood to say that in accordance with the 282 regulations which had hitherto existed, those soldiers to whom the hon. and gallant Member referred were required to appear in uniform only upon certain days.
§ LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, he considered that it was absolutely impossible to maintain a body of men in a state of military efficiency upon an amount of pay which was less than that which the humblest labourers received. Many of those men who were to be retained upon the militia staff had, owing to their good conduct, risen from the rank of privates; and it was certainly no adequate return for that good conduct to place them upon a footing which would preclude them from being able to keep up even a military appearance. It was, however, said that those men might add to their resources by pursuing some trade; but he for one thought it a matter well worthy of consideration, whether in acting upon that principle they would be taking the best course to secure the services of an efficient body of soldiers, and whether it would not be better rather to diminish the number of the militia staff, and maintain their military appearance and discipline, than to keep up a larger number and lose sight in a great degree of considerations so important. There was another matter which he thought was well deserving of the attention of the Committee, it was, whether it was not desirable to place upon an equality, upon the score of pay, the sergeant who happened to have entered the militia as a private, and who, by his good conduct, had gained for himself his present position, and the man who happened, in consequence of his having been in the army before, to have entered as a sergeant, and who was entitled to a pension for his former services? He did not wish for a moment that the latter should be deprived of one penny of that pension. All he desired was, that the inequality which must necessarily now exist between the two classes of men with respect to pay should be removed, and that the merit of the former in rising by their good conduct to the same rank as their fellow sergeants should be duly recognised. He also was of opinion that the Government ought to supply provisions to the soldiers of the militia staff at contract price.
§ COLONEL BUCKsaid, he was extremely gratified to find that the services of the militia had met with the warm approbation both of that House and of the country. They were, he thought, deserving of that 283 approbation; and not the less so because while during the last war the men had been balloted for, the present militia force had been composed entirely of volunteers. That circumstance had entailed upon the officers a much greater amount of anxiety and of labour than they had under the old system been subjected to; but notwithstanding all the difficulties with which they had had to contend, the militia regiments had not only been filled, but in many cases—and in that of his own regiment among the number—the complement of men had been doubled, the places of those who had volunteered into the line having been filled up as soon as they had been vacated. Having said thus much of the readiness with which volunteers had come forward, he would now beg to call the attention of the Committee to the disadvantages of making the Lord Lieutenant of the county colonel of a regiment in the case in which there happened to be two or three regiments of militia as in his (Colonel Buck's) own county. The interests of the regiment of which the Lord Lieutenant was colonel might be distinct from those of another regiment belonging to the same county, and the consequence would be that the interests of the one might in some instances be postponed to those of the other. The Lord Lieutenant should not, therefore, in his opinion, be placed in a position in which favour or bias should be supposed to actuate his decisions with respect to that arm of the service over which, when in a disembodied state, he exercised so extensive a control. In illustration of the disadvantages of that policy he might observe, that while the South Devon militia was No. 25 on the list of militia regiments, the East Devon being No. 41, the Lord Lieutenant of the county having been colonel of the latter regiment, had authority conferred upon him to give to it that precedence to which, in accordance with military regulations, the former was entitled. By some jugglery the latter regiment was now called the 1st Devon, and the former, which by age and position on the list had the precedence, the 2nd Devon. Now that, he must contend, was a system of jobbing which must operate very injuriously upon the efficiency of the service, and which should not be resorted to out of considerations of deference to any individual, however high might be his position. Such considerations, however, were but too frequently found to prevail, and that such was the case had upon more 284 than one occasion come within the scope of his own experience. Lord Mount Edgcumbe, for instance, had been permitted to interfere very materially with the efficiency of the militia artillery practice at Devonport—a subject in connection with which he (Colonel Buck) had moved for certain Returns, which had formed the topic of a conversation at an interview which he had had with the right hon. Gentleman the Clerk of the Ordnance. One of the papers in question was a letter which had been written by Lord Mount Edgcumbe, complaining of the artillery practice which had been carried on within two miles of his house, greatly to his annoyance, and at a spot adjacent to some property upon which it was his intention to build. Such was the usual mode in which a contemplated job was introduced to the notice of the Government. In the instance to which he referred it had emanated from a great man—Lord Mount Edgcumbe, and had been backed by the influence of a still greater man—Lord Lansdowne. While calling the attention of the Committee to that circumstance he might be permitted to congratulate those with whom he had the honour to act, that it was not a nobleman of the Tory party whose assistance had either been solicited or obtained in the matter, but an experienced Whig nobleman whom the Tory nobleman selected to assist him. But to proceed, the letter of Lord Mount Edgcumbe had been submitted to Lord Panmure and to the colonel of the Royal Artillery at Devonport, and the result had been that the acquiescence of both those distinguished individuals having been obtained, the artillery practice, at the spot at which Lord Mount Edgcumbe had objected to its being held, had been put an end to. He (Colonel Buck) having complained to the Clerk of the Ordnance of the injury which had thus been done to the public service, had had his objections to it laid, in the first place, before the colonel of Artillery at Devonport, and, in the next place, before Lord Panmure, both of whom had previously acquiesced in the representations of Lord Mount Edgcumbe, and the consequence had been, as might very naturally have been anticipated, that they had adhered to their original views in the matter. Indeed, he hardly knew of an instance in which objections such as he had advanced had been so dealt with before, except, perhaps, in the case of the proceedings of the other House of Parliament, 285 in which the Lord Chancellor was at present sitting to try an appeal from his own decision. The result of that success of Lord Mount Edgcumbe's representations had been, that the militia artillery had been driven to practice at Drake's Island, which was three-quarters of a mile from the shore; and from that island had been obliged to go to the citadel, which was at a still more considerable distance. Now, there were many objections to prosecuting artillery practice at the citadel, one of the most important being that the range for firing was across the harbour of Devonport, thus causing the practice to be attended with considerable danger and delay, owing to the constant sailing of vessels into and out of that harbour. That view of the case was fully borne out by the major of the regiment to which he had the honour to belong—a man who had served under the Duke of Wellington, and whose testimony was entitled to the utmost consideration; and the consequence of the whole transaction had been that much valuable time for practice was lost to the militia artillery, and of course the efficiency of the service so far impaired. Another subject which he deemed to be well worthy of the consideration of the Committee was the state of our fortifications, which at Devonport, as well as elsewhere, he believed to be in a very imperfect condition. The Government authorities were at present engaged in completing, at an enormous cost, what were called the lines at Devonport. Now, it appeared that the late Duke of Wellington had given it as his opinion that those lines would be wholly useless, and the works had in consequence been discontinued until within the last two or three years, when they had been resumed. But a general impression still prevailed that they could be of no use to keep any people out of Devonport except the inhabitants of Plymouth. He hoped that a Committee would as soon as possible be appointed to inquire into the state of the defences of this country, and that the commission would not consist exclusively of engineers, but would also embrace officers in the marine artillery, captains in the navy, and scientific men, such as Mr. Fergusson. Before resuming his seat he should allude to the condition of Fort Biddlecombe. He had every reason to believe that that fort would be useless for defensive purposes. It was exactly such a work as one might expect to see on the stage of a theatre, 286 and it was said that the reason why it had been so constructed was that Lord Mount Edgcumbe, on whose property it was built, required that it should be of an ornamental character. He would not trespass any further on the time of the Committee, but he would venture to express a hope that the noble Lord at the head of the Government would give the best consideration in his power to the observations he (Colonel Buck) had felt it his duty to make upon that occasion.
§ MR. MONSELLsaid, it was the opinion of Sir John Burgoyne that the fort at Biddlecombe, which the hon. and gallant Member had so severely criticised, was one very admirably adapted for the purpose for which it had been constructed; and it was impossible for the agents of the Government not to act upon the opinion of Sir John Burgoyne in preference to that of the hon. and gallant Gentleman in such a matter. It was true that there was some ornamental work on it, in consequence of Lord Mount Edgcumbe, who had given permission to have it built in his park, having required that it should wear a more or less ornamental aspect; but it was by no means unreasonable that the noble Lord should have insisted on such a condition. With regard to the lines at Devonport, he had to observe that the hon. and gallant Gentleman was in that case also directly at variance with the high authority of Sir John Burgoyne, who had decidedly recommended that the works should be proceeded with. In reference to the removal of the artillery practice from one point to another, he readily admitted that in such a case the convenience of a Peer ought no more to be consulted than that of anybody else, and that no distinction ought to be made between one class of Her Majesty's subjects and another. When a complaint had been made by Lord Mount Edgcumbe of the inconvenience which he and his family suffered from the practice of firing at a particular spot, that complaint had been referred to the Director General of Artillery, who, in his turn, had referred it to the consideration of the commanding officer of artillery at Devonport; and the latter officer, after having carefully inquired into the matter, had given it as his opinion that no injury would arise to the public service from the removal of the practice to another spot. Of course, the commanding officer of artillery was not infallible any more than any one else. The views of the 287 hon. and gallant Member on this subject certainly had not been adopted; but that circumstance gave him no right to talk as he had done of gross jobs, or to make the most unfounded charges against a department which, in this instance, had only followed its usual course of seeking the best advice, and then acting upon it. If the hon. and gallant Officer could suggest a better plan than the one that had been pursued, the department would feel extremely obliged to him; but he ought to remember that a bad case could never be mended by the flinging about of random and unjust imputations.
§ COLONEL GILPINsaid, he had to complain that the paymasters were about to be treated in what he considered a very unfair manner on the occasion of the disembodiment of the militia. The subalterns, generally, were to be dismissed with a gratuity of six months' pay; but the paymasters, who had imposed upon them peculiar responsibilities, and who had to incur a pecular expenditure, would be employed three months longer than other officers, and would then be dismissed with a gratuity of only three months' pay. It seemed to him to be manifest that the fact that they had extra duty to discharge, with the usual pay during the period they were fulfilling that duty, ought not to disqualify them from receiving the six months' gratuity on the occasion of the cessation of their labours.
§ MR. FREDERICK PEELsaid, that the treatment of the paymasters and of the subalterns was only different in terms. The paymasters, from the special nature of their engagements, would be employed three months after the disembodiment of the militia, for the adjustment of their accounts, and would then receive a gratuity of three months' pay. They would thus receive as large an amount as the subaltern from the moment the disembodiment took place.
§ COLONEL GILPINsaid, it was not the less true that the paymasters would receive only a gratuity of three months' pay from the period at which their work was to cease.
COLONEL NORTHsaid, he thought the position of captains of militia was one of peculiar hardship. [A laugh.] Hon. Gentlemen might laugh, but it was no laughing matter for the officers themselves. The regulation respecting the property qualification of militia officers had been relaxed, and the Government had availed them- 288 selves in that force of the experience of officers who had been for five years in Her Majesty's service. Those officers had toiled incessantly for the last two years to bring the militia into an efficient state, and, he believed, in consequence of the expenses they had incurred from the injury done to arms by recruits, and from other circumstances, there was hardly a captain of militia who would not retire from the service with a pecuniary loss of at least £50.
§ MR. COWANsaid, he thought the adjutants in the militia had special grievances to complain of. They were the only officers whose families were entitled to no pensions, and they had no allowance made to them for their outfits. But he had risen principally for the purpose of referring to another topic. Some three months ago he had brought forward a Motion against the system of billeting in Scotland, on which the Government had been defeated. He hoped they would immediately proceed to adopt measures for carrying out the Resolution of the House upon that subject, and that they would relieve the people of Scotland from what was felt to be a very great grievance.
§ SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFEsaid, he believed it was generally admitted that the militia had during the last eighteen months rendered very important service to the country, and he thought that the present time was a very favourable one for making a liberal recognition of their merits. He regretted to hear it stated on the part of the Government that the members of the militia staff, which was still to be maintained, should depend mainly for their subsistence on what they could earn in addition to their pay. It appeared to him that it would be both wise and becoming on the part of the State to place them in a more independent position. There was another point to which he also wished to direct the attention of the Committee. It had been stated by the hon. Gentleman the Under Secretary for War that it was the duty of the Lords Lieutenant of counties to order the training of the militia. But the Act required, as he understood it, that the training of the militia should be undertaken under an Order in Council, and that the Lords Lieutenant should merely determine what were to be the precise time and district at which it was to take place. No Order in Council had been issued upon the subject last year, and he found that only thirteen regiments had been trained 289 in the course of that year, and that at an expense of £10,379, which was about £4 8s. per man.
§ MR. FREDERICK PEELsaid, the Act required that the Lords Lieutenant should appoint, with the approbation of the Crown, the time and place at which the exercise of the militia should take place.
§ SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFEsaid, that the Lords Lieutenant had the power of fixing the time and place at which the training was to be undertaken, but the order for the training ought to issue from the Queen in Council.
§ MR. FREDERICK PEELsaid, he was aware of that. Each regiment should be trained once a year, and he imagined that the object of the Act was to leave it to the Lords Lieutenant to decide what were to be the time and the locality at which the trainings were to take place, because they were naturally the best judges of what would suit the convenience of the men in reference to those points. Of course, if the Lord Lieutenant did not order any training within the year, it would be the duty of the Government to see that the provisions of the Act were enforced.
SIR JOHN BULLERsaid, the discussion on the present Vote had been of a very diversified character, and on some of the points alluded to be had a remark or two to offer. In the first place, he felt bound to express his opinion that the works on the lines at Devonport touched on by his hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Barnstaple (Colonel Buck), notwithstanding the authority of the name of Sir John Burgoyne, were the greatest absurdity ever witnessed. There was a story at Plymouth that the Duke of Wellington saw the lines in operation, that he spoke to the people employed there on the subject, that he then went to luncheon, that the people went to their dinners, and that they never returned, and the work was never resumed. To re-open them, therefore, would be to throw away money. Then, of all the miserable arrangements ever heard of, those at Fort Biddlecombe, for the supply of water, were the most miserable. There was a small tank to catch the rain water, but it would not catch enough for 200 men, and when the pump was used, the liquid came up unfit for use. Besides which, he understood that the guns could not be sufficiently depressed to be serviceable. He wished, before resuming his seat, to call the attention of 290 the Government to the system of billeting. He did not see how to get rid of it on the march; but unquestionably, where possible, the system should be dispensed with, and the men relieved from the disagreeable position in which they were now placed. Nothing could be worse than placing very young men—drummers, for instance, and very young sergeants—in common public-houses when up for their twenty-eight days' training, or when called out for service; and if the Government could allow the young men to have lodgings, or to provide for themselves, instead of being placed in the public-houses, they would do that for which the men and boys would be thankful. In their disembodied state there were no officers to look after them except the adjutant, who, at the utmost, could muster them only once or twice a day; and the rest of the time they were under no restraint. He would not venture to describe the state of things to which he himself had been an eye-witness at Plymouth. He quite concurred in the opinion of hon. Members who had preceded him, that the paymasters would be treated unfairly if they were to receive a gratuity of only three months' pay after the termination of their labours. The adjutant was a permanent officer of the staff, always with his regiment, and if he were active and looked after the interests of the militia and recruiting, he would have quite enough to occupy his time. He (Sir J. Buller) therefore thought that his claim for an additional rate of pay was worthy of being taken into consideration by the Government. He had no doubt the subject would be well considered by the Secretary for War, but inasmuch as the office of adjutant was permanent, his claims might be brought under notice on a future occasion. Attention had been called to the captains of the militia. As that force was constituted, generally the captains were gentlemen of landed property, possessing ample qualification, and who did not, therefore, he thought, have a very powerful claim for additional remuneration on the Government. There was a contingent fund, and if they did their duty there was hardly any case in which that fund was not able to cover the demand. But there was another class of militia captains, young men holding commissions in the line who had come forward to assist in training the militia, in the hope that by doing that essential service to the country they might push their own fortunes. That class, he thought, had a claim upon the 291 Government, because, on many occasions, they were forced into an expenditure beyond their means; and having come at the request, at least, of the Government to help in drilling the militia, they were certainly entitled to some consideration on the part of the Government, which he hoped would be shown to them.
§ LORD CLAUD HAMILTONsaid, he wished to call the attention of the noble Lord at the head of the Government to the fact, that in consequence of the accounts having to pass the War Office it was not always possible for the paymaster to settle the matter within three months, and it would be very hard that they should be deprived of the month's bonus, because it might very well happen that they would have to work very hard after they had sent in all their accounts in checking and making the disallowances ordered. They had also to find securities, which in some cases could not be obtained without money, so that, in addition to the loss of their pay, they would lose the interest of the money expended by them.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he could assure the Committee that the Government were fully sensible of the great public utility and value of the militia, and were most desirous that the militia should be kept in such a condition as to fully meet the purpose for which it was established. Any fair liberality to the officers on being disembodied would be entirely in accordance with the wishes of the Government. With regard to the paymasters, if their accounts were properly kept, the duty of settling those accounts would not be a very hard one, and they could correspond with the War Office, as well from one place as another, so that they could select their residence where they pleased. The Government were quite sensible of the great value of the artillery branch of the militia. Indeed, he might take some credit to himself on that account, because as it was his duty as Home Secretary to arrange the distribution of the corps, when the militia was formed, he, for the first time, established a large number of artillery regiments, amounting, for the whole of the United Kingdom, to, he believed, between 16,000 and 18,000 men. No doubt they were a most valuable corps, and, having had access to the returns of practice, he was aware that the regiment alluded to by the hon. and gallant Member for Barnstaple (Colonel Buck) had shown great efficiency; indeed, he believed no part of 292 the regular artillery had displayed greater efficiency. With regard to the forts and lines at Plymouth, he thought gentlemen were mistaken in the opinion they entertained as to the difficulty of completing those lines. The matter had received great attention, not only from Sir John Burgoyne, but from Her Majesty's Government in consultation with him, and the Government came to the conclusion that the whole extent of those defences should be completed, and that, with a view to defence from a particular quarter, they would form a very valuable addition. As to the fort to the seaward of Mount Edgcumbe, Fort Biddlecombe, he had been within it, and he could not imagine upon what ground it could be pretended that guns could not be fired from it. The engineers who constructed it, so far from thinking there was anything to prevent it being usefully employed, believed that, from the manner the guns were placed near the line of water, and from other circumstances, it would be a very valuable addition to the defences which commanded the entrance to the Sound on that side of the Breakwater. With regard to billeting in Scotland, alluded to by the hon. Member for Edinburgh (Mr. Cowan), he wished to state that, in consquence of the vote of the House, the Government contemplated introducing a provision into the Mutiny Act of next year, placing Scotland on the same footing as England—namely, that it should no longer be in the power of the Government to billet troops on private houses, and that billeting should apply to public-houses only. The hon. Baronet the Member for South Devonshire (Sir J. Buller) wished to carry that exemption further. He quite agreed with the hon. Baronet, that, consistently with a due regard to the public service, it was impossible altogether to exempt public-houses from the liability to receive billets, and that the military service of the country could not be carried on without recourse to billets. But it was unquestionably true that it was very undesirable to billet troops, and more especially militia and young troops in public-houses if it could be avoided. When he was at the Home Office he received great complaints from the keepers of public-houses in one part of Yorkshire on the conduct of the militia quartered on them. They said that in former times they made a very good profit out of the drinking of militiamen, but that the present militiamen were so very sober that they made 293 nothing out of them, and were losers by the sum allowed as compensation by the Government. That showed, however, that the conduct of the militia was not affected in Yorkshire by the temptation of billets, as seemed to be the case in Plymouth. The Committee would see that there were only two methods of providing for troops—either in barracks, or by encampment. The construction of barracks he considered to be a most important object to which the attention of the House of Commons ought to be directed, and the assistance of Parliament ought to be afforded. But, at the same time, the object could not be accomplished without a very large expense, when it was remembered how desirable it was to raise the character and condition of the soldier by the construction of barracks on improved principles, which would give means for classification and healthful exercise. That would increase the expense; but he could assure the Committee as far as the means of putting troops, whether militia or regulars, in barracks existed, the Government would avail themselves of those means, because it was desirable, in the first place, for the sake of the discipline of the army, and, in the next, for the sake of relieving innkeepers from the burden of which they complained. He need scarcely say that the various suggestions which had been thrown out in the course of the discussion would receive the attention of Her Majesty's Government. With regard to the permanent staff of the militia, the great object was to retain that number of non-commissioned officers which was necessary to take charge of the arms and clothing during the period the regiments were not assembled for training, and not to go beyond that, because whatever attention was paid by the adjutant, he had not the same means of keeping a small number of sergeants up to the military point which existed with regard to regiments embodied or assembled for training. It was important that sergeants should not lose their efficiency, and it appeared to him the better course would be to have no larger permanent staff than was absolutely necessary; and that, when the militia regiments were called out for training, they should have the advantage of drill sergeants from the regiments of the line, who would bring with them the latest improvements and the full spirit of military smartness, and if at any future time it should become necessary to embody the militia, sergeants could be taken by promotion 294 from the smartest and best men in the line. With respect to armourer-sergeants he was inclined to believe that respectable gunmakers could be found to keep the arms in better repair than any armourer-sergeant. The Government had, he conceived, shown that they were disposed to treat the subject with as much liberality as was consistent with a due regard to economy, and he could assure the Committee that the Government was deeply sensible of the great value of the services of the militia, and of the devotion to the public interests displayed by its officers in sacrificing convenience and comfort for service at home and abroad for the benefit of the country. With regard to the question of training, it was true that it rested with the Lords Lieutenant to fix the time and place of assembly, but undoubtedly it was for the Secretary of State to intimate to the Lords Lieutenant that their particular regiments were to be called out for training during a certain period. Last year, however, the greater part of the militia was embodied, and it was quite possible that with respect to some of those regiments that were not embodied there might have been doubts between the Lord Lieutenant and the public department as to the period for calling them out, and that some of the regiments might have been overlooked.
SIR JOHN BULLERsaid that, with regard to paymasters, they were required to send in their accounts signed by the commanding officer and the adjutant, and accompanied by a declaration before a magistrate that they had been examined in the presence of all three parties.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, the paymaster was to send in his accounts as soon as possible after they were made up, and the only duty remaining after that was corresponding with the Departments in respect to any disallowances of sums charged in those accounts.
SIR JOHN BULLERsaid, that the paymaster could not leave head-quarters until he had prepared the accounts, and had them signed by the commanding officer and the adjutant.
§ MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, there had been a former Vote of £1,010,000, and he assumed that that amount could not possibly be expended on the embodied militia, for some 40,000 men, or thereabouts, for a period not exceeding four months. There was an item of £18,500 for enrolling and attesting 20,000 men. 295 Surely they did not expect to raise 20,000 militiamen in the course of the present year. Then, again, there was a large sum for half-pay or retired allowances for no less than 2,999 lieutenants and sixty-six ensigns. He wished to know if that was to be a permanent charge, or a charge for the current year only.
§ MR. FREDERICK PEELsaid, the amount voted for the army was not applicable to the disembodied militia. More than half of that sum of £288,000, namely, £180,000 was to provide for the pay and allowances of the permanent staff of the disembodied militia. Every regiment of militia ought, as a matter of rule, to be trained and exercised once in every year, but they intended during the present year only to call out these that had not been embodied, and it was provided in the estimate that they should be trained for a period of forty-two days. With regard to the bounty for raising 20,000 men, as the militia men were only enlisted for a period of five years, of course a number were continually receiving their discharge, and it was calculated that for the present year it would be requisite to raise 20,000 men in order to supply the deficiency. With regard to the half pay, it was for old allowances, and those lieutenants and ensigns were those who were in the late war.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that with respect to the observation that the officers of the militia would be satisfied with the liberality of the Government, he must say that he was far from contented with the lavish expenditure of the Government. The noble Lord (the First Minister of the Crown) had told them that they were to have a staff who were to do nothing but take care of the arms. It was monstrous that the sum of £288,000 should be thrown away for that purpose. Forty years' experience had proved the inutility of that staff, and what was required was a new organisation. In thirty years £8,000,000, and in forty years £11,000,000 had been spent on those useless staffs of militia. It was, he considered, so much money thrown away. He thought the training of the twenty regiments alluded to would be also money thrown away. In the meanwhile there was a large force of foreign legions doing nothing, though they cost £58 per man. Those troops were brought to Aldershot, whereas they ought to have been disbanded; or if not, they ought to be kept on the edge of the country, ac- 296 cording to the promise of the Government when the foreign legion was raised. He would give every assistance to any financial reformer who would seek to rectify those abuses.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he must explain that he did not say the militia staff had nothing to do, but that it was not desirable to retain a larger number of sergeants than necessary, and that when they were embodied it was better to make up the number by soldiers from the line.
§ House resumed.