HC Deb 18 April 1856 vol 141 cc1241-7

House in Committee.

(1.) Motion made, and Question proposed— That a sum, not exceeding £39,054, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expense of Nonconforming, Seceding, and Protestant Dissenting Ministers in Ireland, to the 31st day of March, 1857.

MR. PELLATT

protested against such a Vote altogether, as being justified by no principle, seeing that the recipients were not connected with the Established Church, nor did they perform services to the State which called for such recognition. The most that could be said in favour of it was, that it had been granted for many years. There were no less than eleven sects in Ireland which received no grant from the Government. He (Mr. Pellatt) believed that Dissenters, who received no money from the State, would repudiate the offer if it was made to them. Why, if they considered the state of the Free Church in Scotland—which afforded a noble spectacle to the world—they would find that their voluntary contributions, their free-will offerings, were all upon which they placed their full dependence. The congregations of the Free Church in Scotland were able to raise more than £100 a year for their ministers on the voluntary principle, whilst in Ireland, where there was a State payment of £35 a year to each minister, there was the greatest difficulty in raising their incomes any higher by voluntary contributions. So that the more the State pay seemed to encourage the more in reality it discouraged voluntary contributions. Whether they looked at their colleges, their various educational institutions, or their congregations, they would find that a vast amount of mischief arose from State payments. He asked the House, therefore, to assist him in sweeping off from the Estimates this objectionable grant. He wished he could see the right hon. Baronet the Member for Carlisle (Sir J. Graham) and the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer in their places—he would have called upon them to support his proposition on the same principles as those upon which they had addressed the House some evenings since. It was, in fact, an avowed political payment, and he called upon the Irish Roman Catholic Members in that House to join him in resisting this Vote to Presbyterians.

MR. KIRK

supported the Vote, which had been granted in lieu of tithes of which these clergymen had been unjustly deprived. The whole sum granted was only one-seventh of the whole amount of which the Presbyterian clergy of Ulster had been so deprived. That sum was about £9,000 a year, while the grant was only £1,200. To the credit of every Government, this grant had been continued from the time it was first given to the present without the slightest objection. He must defend the Presbyterian Church of Ireland from the imputation that the grant had been made to them for the purchase of loyalty; and he must equally deny that the Presbyterian congregations of Ulster were rich—were other, in fact, than what was called tenant farmers there, but who would be called cottiers in Scotland or England. If the grant were withdrawn, religious worship would inevitably cease in some districts, because the congregations would be too poor to support a clergyman from their own resources. He altogether denied that they had been niggardly in supporting their church in proportion to their means. He knew that the wealthier class of Presbyterians had subscribed a sum of £25,000 to build manses and improve livings, to the full extent of their means. The success of the scheme of the hon. Gentleman would be a failure in Ireland if the results were to be judged by what had taken place in England, where 274 chapels were vacant for want of funds to pay the clergymen, while there were no fewer than 290 ministers in England without charges. In Wales there were seventy-five chapels vacant. If that was the case in this wealthy country, what might be expected to pass in such a poor country as Ireland? Still many of the poorer parishes in Ireland contributed even beyond their means.

MR. J. D. FITZGERALD

condemned the inconsistency of the House in withholding the grant to Maynooth, and sanctioning one to the Presbyterians in Ireland out of the Consolidated Fund.

MR. BLACK

also considered the House would be open to the charge of partiality in making this grant and withdrawing the other. It would be looked upon as the House taking upon itself to decide what sect should be predominant. He should support the Amendment.

MR. HADFIELD

also supported the Amendment. He considered these grants as part of a rotten system that ought to be put an end to.

Motion made, and Question put— That a sum, not exceeding £1,414 5s. 4d., be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expense of Nonconforming, Seceding, and Protestant Dissenting Ministers in Ireland, to the 31st day of March, 1857.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 60; Noes 230: Majority 170.

Original Question again proposed.

MR. HADFIELD

said, that, although defeated, he was not dismayed, for he felt that his cause was a good one, and that he must ultimately succeed. He should, therefore, move to reduce the Vote by £3,097 12s. 6½d. for forty-two ministers who had an income of £100 a year or upwards. In his opinion, it was a piece of bold effrontery to come before the House and ask for any such grant of public money. What was the sort of cases to which the money was applied? There were forty-two of them on the paper, but he would mention only two. The first was that of the Rev. Dr. Morgan. He received £350 a year from his congregation, and in addition £92 6s. 2d. out of the public taxes in the shape of Regium donum. His congregation was an opulent one, and in twenty-two years had raised not less than £32,000 for benevolent purposes; yet they were not ashamed to allow their minister to come here and ask for £92 from the taxes. Let the House withhold the grant, and what would be the result? Why, that the congregation would restore the amount next week. The fact was, that it was a gift, not to Dr. Morgan, but to his people. The other case was that of the Rev. Dr. Montgomery. That gentleman received from his congregation £129 9s. 1½d. The sum of £150 was voted to him as one of two professors to teach three pupils: that was to say, he was paid £150 a year for the care of one pupil and a half. He also received £230 a year for distributing the grant from Parliament among thirty-eight Presbyterian ministers in Ireland, which was about £6 a head for every sum be doled out to them. And after all that, the House was called upon to vote £96 6s. 2½d. as Regium donum, or Royal bounty, to this gentleman. He proposed, therefore, to reduce the Vote by £3,097 12s. 6½d.

Motion made, and Question put— That a sum, not exceeding £35,956 7s. 5½d., be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expense of Nonconforming, Seceding, and Protestant Dissenting Ministers in. Ireland, to the 31st day of March, 1857.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 39; Noes 214: Majority 175.

Original Question again proposed.

MR. KERSHAW

then moved, that the sum of £500 for agents' salaries and allowances should be struck out from the Vote, He objected to this Vote on principle, and should use every means of opposing or reducing it. He had objected on a former occasion to the grant of £1,695 to the English nonconforming clergy. Lord J. Russell, when Prime Minister, to his honour, had withdrawn it, and the result was received with acclamation by the English nonconformists themselves. He believed that numbers of the Irish Presbyterians themselves were equally anxious for the withdrawal of the Vote before the House. Dr. Cooke got £320 for distributing this grant, while a banker would do the same for £6. Dr. Harvey distributed £2,900, which a banker would distribute for £75, but the rev. gentleman charged £230 for the distribution, He thought that these facts were conclusive as to the necessity for altering the system of distributing the grant. The hon. Member, in conclusion, proposed to reduce the Vote by the sum of £500.

MR. CAIRNS

said, the hon. Member (Mr. Pellatt) had drawn a parallel between the Free Church of Scotland and the Presbyterians of Ireland, which was not very accurate. The members of the Free Church of Scotland were Presbyterians who had not the least love of the voluntary principle, and were anything but voluntaries. They would be glad to have their endowments again, if they could have them on their own terms. The Presbyterians had their endowments upon their own terms, and the circumstances of the two bodies were therefore very different. The distribution of the bounty was a pure question of business. The hon. Member said, a banker might be got to distribute the grant for much less. But this was not a business that a banker could or would do. The gentlemen who distributed it had not only to give the money, but to keep an account of pew-rents, to see that the congregation reached a certain amount, and that the rules for receiving the Regium donum were complied with, and they had to keep up a certain supervision and superintendence of ministers and congregations. Then the congregations were scattered over many districts of Ireland, and the clergymen distributing the fund had to bring the money into the hands of those who received it without charge. It was for these complicated services that the remuneration was given. It ought to be mentioned that Dr. Cooke received no Regium donum himself, although he might, if he chose to claim it, receive the allowance of a minister of the first class. He, therefore, in fact, performed the business of an agent upon terms that no banker could be got to distribute the fund. The remuneration paid to Dr. Cooke and Dr. Montgomery had been fixed upon a careful consideration of the duties they had to perform, and if there were to be a reconsideration of the question, let it be reconsidered in a proper way and upon a fitting occasion.

MR. HADFIELD

said that, so far as he could learn, Dr. Cooke was precluded by the rules of the Presbytery from taking the Regium donum: but though he did not get it, his chapel did, under pretence of paying off a debt that no longer existed: so that the House of Commons, by these allowances, had been paying the debt upon Dr. Cooke's chapel. The Presbyterians of Ireland ought to be ashamed of accepting the grant, when the Presbyterians elsewhere were so nobly exerting themselves in favour of the voluntary prin- ciple. The efforts of the members of the Free Church of Scotland had astounded Christendom, for they had raised by voluntary contributions no less a sum than £3,000,000. They did not ask for assistance out of the public funds, and he hoped that, following their example, the Committee soon would hear no more of the Regium donum.

Motion made, and Question put— That a sum, not exceeding £38,554, be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expense of Nonconforming, Seceding, and Protestant Dissenting Ministers in Ireland, to the 31st day of Match, 1857.

The Committee divided:— Ayes 40; Noes 198: Majority 158.

Original Question again proposed.

MR. CROSSLEY

then moved that the Chairman report progress.

THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

hoped, as the House had been occupied till a late hour in the evening with a discussion on Indian affairs, and only one Vote had yet been proposed, that the hon. Gentleman would not persevere in this Motion.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 16; Noes 211: Majority 195.

Original Question again proposed.

MR. BARNES

moved, that the allowance for New Congregations, five ministers at £69 4s. 8d. (total £346 3s. 4d.), be struck out of the Vote. The present was different from the last Vote on which the Committee divided, because the sum which he now moved to be struck out was for new congregations, so that the argument of an existing contract did not apply. The Presbyterians of Ireland were the only body of Dissenters who claimed aid of this kind. He thought it most unjust to the poor handloom weavers of Bolton and other places, that their money should be spent for the establishment of new congregations in the North of Ireland. He protested against the Vote as unjust and unchristian.

MR. KIRK

said, that the increase was only £101, and not £346.

MR. HADFIELD

hoped the Committee would have the advantage of hearing an expression of opinion from some right hon. Gentleman on the Treasury Bench upon this subject.

MR. LABOUCHERE

said, the question was one which had been so frequently discussed, and the arguments they had heard to-night in favour of the voluntary principle as opposed to the principle of endowment were so hackneyed and familiar to the House, that he thought the Members of the Government had exercised a wise discretion in abstaining from taking any part in the discussion.

MR. BARNES

said, he would not give the Committee the trouble of dividing.

Motion made— That a sum, not. exceeding £38,707 16s. 8d., be granted to Her Majesty, to defray the Expense of Nonconforming, Seceding, and Protestant Dissenting Ministers in Ireland, to the 31st day of March, 1857.

Question put, and negatived.

Original Question put, and agreed to; as was also—

(2.) £6,602, Charitable Allowances (Ireland).

The House resumed.