HC Deb 04 April 1856 vol 141 cc523-43

House in Committee; Mr. FITZROY in the Chair.

The following four Votes were agreed to:—

  1. (1.) £16,783, Inspection and Superintendence of Prisons.
  2. (2.) £415,906, Government Prisons and Convict Establishments.
  3. (3.) £161,595, Prisoners in County Gaols, &c.
  4. (4.) £25,485, Transportation of Convicts, &c.
  5. (5.) £286,605, Convict Establishments, Colonies.

LORD WILLIAM GRAHAM

said, he wished to call attention to a very considerable increase in a number of the items, as compared with the last year's Estimates, particularly those of bedding and clothing, which he thought required some explanation.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, it was impossible to account for the increase on each separate item, because the supply required annually varied in amount. He had, however, noticed the increase for bedding and clothing, and would make some inquiry upon the subject. Although there was a decrease in the number of convicts sent to Australia, yet it was necessary, at least for a time, to maintain the convict establishments in their original condition, and hence there could be no reduction of the expense. The cost of some materials had increased, but, with respect to Australia, not including the Western part, the expenses would gradually become extinguished.

MR. FLOYER

said, that one of the items included a Vote of £2,000 for distribution among criminal reformatories; he wished to know upon what principle that distribution was made?

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, that it had hitherto been at a rate of 5s. a head for every criminal admitted into reformatories; but there was some doubt as to whether or not that was sufficient, and an inquiry on the subject was now pending.

Vote agreed to.

(6.) £300,000, Public Education in Great Britain, on account.

MR. WILSON

said, that as the subject of education would shortly come before the House on the Resolutions of the noble Lord the Member for London (Lord J. Russell), it was proposed at present to take only £300,000 on account of the whole Vote (£450,000).

MR. HADFIELD

said, he thought the Government proposed to take too much on account. The whole question of education might be settled next week, and the Government ought not to press the present Vote. There was no Act of the Legislature warranting the expenditure, and the proceeding appeared to be highly unconstitutional.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, the Government, in accordance with the hon. Member's suggestion at an early period of the evening, proposed to take at present a portion of the money only, leaving the rest to be voted after the House should come to a decision on the Motion of the noble Lord the Member for London. He believed that some inconvenience would be experienced if a portion of the money were not now voted.

MR. MOWBRAY

said, he wanted to know what had been the expenses of Kneller Hall in past years? It had been a costly establishment, and, he believed, had turned out a total failure. He saw by the Estimates of last year, £4,800 were voted for it; but now, in consequence of the institution being a failure, the premises were to be disposed of; and he, therefore, wished to know what the institution had cost the country, and what sum was likely to be realised for the premises?

MR. WILSON

said, there could be no objection to furnish an account of the total expenditure. The institution was given up, and the premises were about to be disposed of.

MR. HADFIELD

said, the institution had cost the country £70,000, or about £1,200 for each pupil teacher; so that what teachers afterwards received as salaries would probably be less than the interest of the money expended in preparing them for the duty of teaching. He must again press the Government not to take the Vote until after the discussion on the Motion of the noble Member for London.

MR. VANSITTART

said, he thought it was not fair in Gentlemen who took an interest in those Estimates to postpone their consideration to what might be termed a "field day" upon education. He thought some explanation was required upon the large increase of capitation money and other items contained in the Estimate.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he trusted the Committee would vote the sum on account, postponing any discussion with reference to the Vote until the remainder of the money should be asked for.

MR. ALCOCK

said, he must deprecate the manner in which this Vote had hitherto been applied, and he certainly concurred in the propriety of postponing it for the present.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he thought that the Committee had agreed to postpone the discussion upon the Vote, or he would have made a statement in proposing it. He therefore submitted that it would be inconvenient to continue the discussion at present.

MR. BARROW

said, he wished to know whether schools for adults, not under the inspection of the Council, would receive the assistance of the grant in this Vote for books and maps?

SIR GEORGE GREY

replied, that they would receive the same assistance as other schools.

Vote agreed to, as was also the next Vote—

(7.) £64,675, Department of Science and Art.

Motion made, and Question proposed— That a sum, not exceeding £227,641, be granted to Her Majesty, for Public Education in Ireland, under the charge of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland, to the 31st day of March, 1857.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he did not object to a grant for education in Ireland, but there were some grants in the Vote that ought not to pass without observation. At page 16, there was an item for the "Albert Agricultural Training Establishment and Model Farm, Glasnevin." He observed, that wherever the name of Albert was attached to an institution, a profuse expenditure was connected with it. There were several of the items which related to a kind of fancy agricultural teaching, and there ought to be some reduction on the grant; he thought education would be better promoted in Ireland by teaching people of that class some of the more common things of life.

MR. BLACKBURN

said, a large Blue-book had been delivered within the last day or two on the subject of national education in Ireland, almost filled with details of various agricultural experiments, which did not seem to have led to any practical result. In Scotland they carried on experiments of that description at their own expense. The Blue-book also contained various details with respect to the Albert Training Institution, and the pupils who had been educated there, to which he wished to direct the attention of the Committee. Considering the amount of profit yielded by the allotments of those industrial schools, he was surprised they did not take a few more hundred acres into cultivation, so as not to want any money at all. In the account of allotment E, held by John Shorte, at 3s. 10d. rent for ten perches, the balance in favour of the allotment at the close of the year, was stated to be £2 2s. 2½d. Out of the £227,000, £17,000 were expended for agricultural schools, £23,000 for model schools, £10,000 for mixed schools, and last, not least, £36,000 for management; so that £140,000 only were applied to the actual working schools. The items ought to be carefully looked into, and he should therefore move that the Vote be postponed.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, the objection which his hon. Friend had taken to this Vote seemed to him to be an objection to all contributions for the public education of the lower classes, and, if his hon. Friend were consistent, he ought to object to any Vote whatever for the diffusion of education. For what was the object of education? It was to teach those who were unable to obtain education for themselves those things which would be useful to them through life. His hon. Friend would vote money for teaching astronomy, mathematics, and any of the higher branches of education, which he was afraid were made too much of by some schools supported by public contributions; but his hon. Friend would refuse that knowledge which would be useful to them every day of their lives, and on the possession of which depended the increasing prosperity of Ireland. Every one know that the great bulk of the Irish peasantry were agriculturists, that upon the skilful or unskilful cultivation of the soil depended their happiness and prosperity or their misery and wretchedness, and that upon that prosperity or misery turned the prosperity of a part of the United Kingdom, which materially affected the general prosperity of the whole empire; the Irish peasantry were greatly deficient in agricultural knowledge; they occupied small portions of land; they practised the rude system they had learnt from their predecessors; they were ignorant of the rotation of crops; they did not know how to turn to the best account those natural resources which lay undeveloped in the soil they trod. He maintained that there could not possibly be a better application of money than employing it to teach them how to cultivate the soil, how to raise the greatest amount of produce, how to know the sort of cattle most fitted for the markets they supplied—in short, the science of agriculture, which was the pursuit of their lives, and upon which depended the well-being of themselves and families and the prosperity of that part of the country.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, the observations of the noble Lord only proved that the public money of this country was devoted to the purpose of teaching the Irish peasant improved agriculture, for the sole benefit of the Irish landlords. The English peasant learned agriculture himself, and he (Mr. Williams) did not see why the Irish peasant could not do so likewise. He wished to know, however, of what advantage it was to Ireland to have a person sent from Prince Albert's farm at Windsor to learn agriculture? He should move the reduction of the Vote by three items, amounting altogether to £14,905.

Motion made, and Question proposed— That a sum, not exceeding £212,736, be granted to Her Majesty, for Public Education in Ireland, under the charge of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland, to the 31st day of March, 1857.

MR. BLACKBURN

said, he would not press his Amendment to postpone the Vote.

COLONEL DUNNE

said, he must deny that the Irish landlords derived any benefit from those schools, unless the pupils afterwards served them as stewards. They were all aware that, if a landlord knew little of agriculture, he employed a steward, generally a Scotchman; but, however efficient a Scotch steward might be, it had been found in many instances a most expensive luxury. The published account of those institutions placed the subject in a most ridiculous light. He did not believe in the profits of the allotments. But, taken altogether, he deemed the schools beneficial, and all the Committee had to do was, to inquire strictly how the money was expended.

MR. BARROW

said, that such Votes created a feeling against really industrial schools, because the public saw so much money laid out for schools that were not necessary. Take the training school at Kneller Hall, for instance, the pupils in which cost, according to one estimate, £1,000 a piece, and according to another, £600. In the normal establishment of these Irish schools, he found £300 to two professors who were to "lecture on the art of teaching and conducting schools, the English language and literature, history, geography, mathematics, political economy, natural philosophy, and chemistry." He thought the Vote ought to be reduced, and that the Committee ought to cut away those excrescences that, in his opinion, injured the cause of education.

MR. MOWBRAY

said, he found in page 17 an item of £4,000 for a district model school, the site of which was not determined upon. A similar school was to be erected in the city of Londonderry, for which £3,000 was sufficient. Then he found the salaries of teachers and assistant teachers of national schools amounted to £101,000, besides £6,000 for salaries to various classes of monitors, and £3,000 for salaries of work-mistresses and teachers of the higher branches of needlework in industrial schools. Then there was an item of £1,000 for "premiums to teachers for the encouragement of neatness and cleanliness." He thought that teachers might be expected to encourage habits of neatness and cleanliness without receiving premiums for so doing. He also found in the book department an item of £10,000 "towards paper, printing, and binding the national school books, and to purchase maps and other school requisites." If the hon. Member proposed to reduce the Vote by a greater amount, he would divide with him.

MR. KINNAIRD

said, he thought it would be better to withdraw a portion of the Vote, in order that the Government might reconsider it and present it in an amended form.

MR. MACARTNEY

said, that when the Vote amounted to £60,000 or £80,000 the poor derived some advantage from it. He believed the Vote in the first year was £40,000, but now it amounted to £227,641. The amount voted for education in Great Britain last year was £396,921, which was disbursed at a charge of £12,663 for administration. The sum voted for the Irish Commissioners of Education was much smaller, yet the cost of its administration was about £14,000. The various items of that expenditure had not been set forth as they ought to have been, but the extravagance of the establishment in Dublin, under the control of the Chief Commissioner, called for a great exertion on the part of the English portion of the House of Commons to remodel it and put it on a more economical footing.

MR. J. G. PHILLIMORE

said, he hoped that the Government would reconsider this Vote, because it bore marks of being a most transparent job. He found an item of £100 for a "literary teacher to the literary teachers in training at Marlborough Street." Then there was a "first agriculturist," at £120, and a "second agriculturist," at £80. He certainly could not give his consent to the Vote in its present shape.

MR. DISRAELI

said, he certainly thought the Vote required further consideration, more especially in view of the vindication of its utility attempted by the noble Lord at the head of the Government, who had raised questions which it was difficult to see where they should stop, if they drew from those principles the legitimate consequences that would inevitably follow their adoption. He (Mr. Disraeli) was not prepared to say that a model farm in Ireland might not be valuable and useful—though he was in general opposed to model farms. There might be anomalous circumstances in connection with that country which would render it necessary to place the means of learning the highest and most perfect modes of cultivation before the agricultural population of that country; but though that House might authorise one model farm, it did not follow that this institution should organise, as it had done, model farms in other parts of that country. The use of a model school was to give a stimulus and a direction to individual industry, and influence it to make exertions for the creation and application of capital, and so give a beneficial impulse to public conduct, elevate the tone of society, and improve the average exertions of the country. But in this case, there was not merely a model school, but a parent institution; every institution derived from it was a model institution; and it might ultimately come to the point, if the principle were admitted, that the whole face of the country would be cultivated at the public cost. The hon. and gallant Member for Portarlington (Colonel Dunne) seemed to him to raise objections to the Vote that he rose to advocate, for he said that the advantage of these model institutions was, that here, at a cheap rate, the Irish landowners might educate stewards to manage their properties. But for such model farms his hon. and gallant Friend said they must send to Scotland, where they would get very good but very expensive stewards. Then the question arose—ought the proprietors of Ireland to benefit by the Imperial capital thus applied? But here the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) stepped in and said, "How can you oppose these Votes? Are you not for education? Are you not every day and night pressing upon the Government that education is of the first consequence? And what is of more importance than to instruct the people of Ireland, who are almost exclusively an agricultural people, in a skilful cultivation of the soil? "Now, with all deference to the noble Lord, there appeared to him (Mr. Disraeli) to be a great fallacy in those observations, which, falling from so high a quarter, required to be answered. He apprehended that there was very little difference in that House at the present day, not only as to the benefits of education, but also as to its being the first duty of a State to encourage and stimulate the education of the people of the country whose affairs it administered; but then he took such education to mean—in the largest acceptation of the words—the religious, the moral, and the literary education of the people—the education of their soul, their heart, and their intelligence. The duty of the State was only to cultivate the spirit, the heart, and the intelligence of the people; and having performed that task, they should allow them to employ the talents they had cultivated in order to advance themselves in life; but he did not apprehend that when they had advanced the education of the people it was the business of the State to educate them in trades—that it was the business of the State to educate them in cultivating the soil, any more than it was the business of the State to educate them in manufacturing raw material into cotton articles. He wanted to know where the line was to be drawn? If the notion of education expressed by the noble Lord that night was adopted by the House of Commons, he (Mr. Disraeli) would like to know where they were to stop with Votes of that kind—whether they might not have a Vote for a mill, a model mill, or a model bakery. Following out the principle propounded in the present case, he would ask whether, having passed this Vote, any trade or manufacture in the country might not come, and on similar grounds, ask that House for those colleges and houses to educate people in their particular branch of industry. It appeared to him that the principle of those Votes was essentially a false one, though he could not go so far as the hon. Gentlemen on the other side of the House, who asked hon. Members to strike those Votes out of the paper on the present occasion; for, as had been suggested, the model farm was not an establishment that could be put an end to in a moment; but he could not doubt that the Committee would, on this occasion, in a manner that could not be mistaken, express their disapprobation of a system which had already entailed upon the country a large expenditure, to the increase of which he saw no limit if the principle advocated by the noble Lord was accepted. He should be glad, knowing himself but little of the localities in which some of these model schools were situate, to hear Irish Members favouring the Committee with their opinions on the subject. He should be glad to hear the Chief Secretary to the Lord Lieutenant giving some statesmanlike and philosophical vindication of these Votes; but a silence, that had not illuminated the discussion, had prevailed on the Treasury benches. The Committee had not even been favoured with that contribution to its knowledge of the subject under debate which might enable them to form such a determination as might be desired, and which could have, perhaps, been imparted by those Irish Members who might themselves be interested in those Votes. Passing over the model farm, he found that there were nineteen model agricultural schools under the exclusive control of the Board, and the expense of which, on the whole, amounted, of course, to more than that of the model farm; and he perceived that for one of those model agricultural schools—that at Limerick—no less a sum than £2,300 was required. Now, one of the Members for Limerick was a distinguished Member of Her Majesty's Government, and from him he (Mr. Disraeli) would be glad to have some information on the subject of this school. He knew that the right hon. Gentleman the Clerk of the Ordnance had great ingenuity in debate, and was oftener on his legs than probably he wished to be; but the question of this model school in Limerick was one on which the right hon. Gentleman might be in a position to give the Committee some information. He (Mr. Monsell) might tell the Committee in what part of the Limerick district this model agricultural school was placed—whether it was contiguous to his own estate, and therefore under his own observation, so as that from his own experience he could give them the desired information. There was also another hon. Member for Limerick in that House; and he, too, would have an opportunity of speaking on the matter, for in addition to the sum of £2,300 asked for the school itself, there were Votes for "furniture" for the residences of masters and agricultural and literary pupils, and the other hon. Member for Limerick might give the Committee some information with respect to those items. He (Mr. Disraeli) did not mean to say that these were important details, though £2,300 was not an inconsiderable sum for one of those schools; but as there were nineteen of them, he could not but think that the present was a good opportunity for the representatives of all those districts—when a Vote of this kind was called in question there was an excellent opportunity for those hon. Gentlemen to come forward and contribute to the debate. Gentlemen in the great position of Ministers of State would add much importance and weight to the debate; and, on the other hand, for Members of less experience, what better opportunity of catching the ear of the Committee than that which would be afforded to them by speaking of those schools which might be on their own estates, and which might be of immense advantage to them. Those hon. Members might say, "By the beneficent and philanthropic Legislature of England we have the advantage of model agricultural schools on our estates. Still, we are ready to vindicate the Vote for those schools—we are ready to prove that they are of the greatest importance and advantage to our country." He really hoped that before the discussion, ended they would have that information at least from the representatives of the districts in which those schools were situate. He also trusted that the comments made by hon. Members in the course of that debate would convince the Government that such Votes could not be passed in the easy manner that the Government seemed to think. If the mischief of this system were limited to the Votes on the papers then before the Committee he would not have been disposed to oppose those Votes; but, after the observations of the noble Lord, he could not have remained silent, for he could not understand why Votes of that kind were to be multiplied ad infinitum. He could not help remembering that from the circumstances in which this country had been placed during the last two years, and the existence of which rendered it necessary that the greatest confidence should be placed in the Government, and the least scrutiny possible of expenditure of the public money resorted to, that House had fallen into habits of expenditure that ought, at least, to be checked—not, however, unjustly checked, For let it not be supposed that because they were now about to terminate a great cause of expenditure, and because they would of necessity have to severely revise the establishments of this country, he should avail himself of such a time to recommend any reduction of the expenditure necessary for the education of the people of Great Britain and Ireland. But if they were to legislate for the education of the people, let it be for their religious, moral, and literary education. But let it not be for education that was to teach them to be tillers of the soil—which would teach them to be followers of trade—which would teach them to be manufacturers of raw material; a course which would, in fact, be to step in and give to a country, as a community, those advantages which could only be the result of experience, and that an experience which could be obtained only at the country's own cost and risk, and by its own study.

MR. HORSMAN

said, he could assure the right hon. Gentleman that he did not require his invitation to come forward, but he had thought it less necessary to rise in the presence of the right hon. Gentleman, because the Votes now before the Committee were similar to those introduced by him and recommended to the House when he was a Minister of the Crown. For those Votes, which did not now appear in the Estimates for the first time, it should be understood that the House of Commons was really responsible. He was not prepared to vindicate the particular terms in which those Votes were recommended, which he admitted were open to criticism. But when he heard it denounced as a job in the interests of the Irish landlords, he would remind the Committee that this was only part of the large sum placed at the disposal of the Commissioners of National Education, and that, though this was originally intended to promote literary instruction, they had thought it right to devote a small portion to the industrial education of the people of Ireland. It might be a question open to debate whether it was a wise course to pursue hereafter; but those were establishments which had been agreed to year after year, and which now summarily to break up would inflict great injury and injustice on many parties. Instead of taking each Vote separately, and commenting on the words in which it was proposed, it would be bettor for hon. Members to show, if they could, that the money which had been expended had not been beneficially employed. According to the information which he had received the contrary was the case. A good deal had been said about one item for "literary teachers to literary teachers," but every one knew what was meant, though the expressions were not happy, and that there was a class of superior pupils in training to become teachers, and that there must be experienced teachers to qualify them for their future functions. In England such a Vote as the present was not required, because there were agricultural societies, with their periodical shows and their grants of premiums, and agriculture was pursued under a system to which all the aids of wealth and science had long been applied. But that was not the case in Ireland, where agriculture was in its infancy, and required some extraneous aid, under the application of which it had lately made great advances. He would beg to impress upon the Committee that Parliament was responsible mainly for this Vote, although it might fairly be considered whether in future years any modifications might not be introduced into it. He therefore hoped the hon. Member who moved the Amendment would be satisfied with having elicited the opinion of the Committee, and leave the Commissioners of National Education to be warned by this discussion to weigh well all the details of any Estimate which they might propose.

MR. M'MAHON

said, he represented a district of Ireland which would not be at all benefited by the Vote, and was as hostile as any one to any jobbing system of applying public money to special purposes; but he was surprised that English and Scotch Members should just then find that Votes for education, other than moral or religious, were wrong. He would ask them whether the Vote they had passed that evening for mining schools was justifiable on that ground, or the Vote for the Marlborough House Schools? The latter were intended to diffuse among the youth of this country a knowledge of arts and sciences, in order that native manufacturers might be enabled to compete with foreigners without the necessity of obtaining their designs from abroad. If the Committee should refuse to pass this Vote, he should certainly divide upon that for the Professorship of Materia Medica and Comparative Anatomy at the London University, which certainly could not come under the denomination of objects of moral or religious education.

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

said, that the Votes which had been quoted by the hon. Member for Wexford (Mr. M'Mahon) were divided among England, Scotland, and Ireland. The right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland had cast a deep slur on the landed proprietors of that country when he referred to the agricultural societies as a reason why Government aid was not required in England, for he forgot to mention that those societies were maintained by individual subscriptions, as was also the Royal Agricultural Society of Ireland, which had done much good. He objected to the Vote on principle, and believed that so long as Government support was extended to Irish agriculture, the energies of the landowners would be cramped and repressed.

MR. WILSON

said, he must remind the Committee that, a year ago, a lengthened conversation had taken place upon the present subject, and the decision then arrived at appeared to be that the Commissioners for National Education in Ireland had shown great discretion in applying a portion of their funds to industrial training, and certainly the public had regarded that expenditure with no inconsiderable degree of favour. What was there new in the principle thus introduced in the system of national education? Nothing. It was only applying it in the most practical manner to the interest of the people. Would it, then, be wise, now that the Commissioners had got these establishments to the present state of completeness and had all these engagements on their bands, for the House of Commons to interfere and put an end to them at once? He trusted, after the many discussions which had taken place on the subject, and after the repeated Votes that had been sanctioned, the Committee would not suddenly withdraw this Vote.

MR. STAFFORD

said, he wished to know who was responsible for the Vote now under consideration, since the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland, while defending it, had said that he was not prepared to maintain it in all its details, while the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of the Treasury had simply called upon the Committee not to maintain the principle, but to abstain from suddenly withholding the salaries of the Commissioners, and thereby disarrange their plans. He never could understand what advantage was to be derived from agricultural training establishments in Ireland. It appeared to him to have no connection whatever with national education, but to partake altogether of class legislation. It tended to set the agricultural population against all the other classes of the community, and it was in a degree opposing Ireland against England, where no such establishments existed. If they sanctioned an establishment for agriculture, why not have an establishment for shipbuilding? He believed that the agricultural interest of Ireland was at the present moment based on as broad and healthy a foundation as it could possibly be, and that it did not need such Votes as that now proposed. It was rather singular that he should have to teach free trade to hon. Members sitting on the Treasury benches. But he did trust that they would recognise their own principles and withdraw this grant. He, as a landed proprietor of Ireland, would be able to witness the utter abolition of the existing establishment without the least alarm.

MR. BARNES

said, if they did not retrace their steps, they must go on to a point beyond reasonable conception. It was essentially unjust that his Lancashire constituents should be taxed for such establishments in Ireland, and he hoped, if the Vote did pass, that this kind of legislation, which was class legislation, in fact, would very soon disappear.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, it was to be regretted that the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) had not a bettor recollection and less imagination when he attacked with so much eloquence a Vote which he himself had become responsible for when sitting on those (the Ministerial) benches. Probably his memory was not sufficiently tenacious; or, perhaps, he was carried away with the impetuosity of his imagination, and had thus been led to break his lance against his own shield. He could not admit the doctrine which the right hon. Gentleman had laid down—namely, that the efforts of a Government in promoting the education of the people should be limited entirely to religion, morality, and intelligence, and that everything tending to enable the people to maintain themselves in life should be altogether excluded. He alway understood that education was the art of teaching men how to live according to the circumstances in which they might be placed. It was, he must confess, quite a new doctrine to him to hear it asserted that it was an abuse of the powers of Government to teach the people industrial occupations. The right hon. Gentleman had said, "If you teach the people agriculture, why not teach them cotton spinning?" It had been well observed that we at least did teach them cotton printing by the establishment of schools of design. And if it were right to establish schools of design, why should it not be equally right to establish schools for agricultural training? The object of such institutions certainly was not to enable the people to make fortunes, or to accumulate wealth, but to qualify them to support themselves and their families, and to struggle through life in that position in which their lot had been cast. Upon general principles, he admitted, it was not expedient to devote public money to advance the condition of the people; but the condition of the people of Ireland was an exception to all general rules. He would not at that moment enter into any discussion, but every man must know the unfortunate state in which Ireland had for ages been placed, and how Ireland had been the victim of misgovernment on the part of this country. It was true that could not be said of the Government for many years past, because they had been retracing their steps, and had been doing justice where injustice had hitherto prevailed. But it was from the misgovernment of former ages that Ireland was still suffering. And when they knew that that country was comparatively poor, because in former ages it had been misgoverned, because its resources had not been brought forth, and because it had been made the victim of oppression and the object of class legislation, he contended that Ireland was an exception to the general rule. For many years past a more enlightened policy had prevailed. The Government of this country had retraced its steps. But even now, when they considered what had been the calamitous results of long years of misgovernment to that country, they were not only entitled, but bound, in justice, to make Ireland an exception from the general rules of legislation. What had been the affliction, what the calamity, which, within the last few years, had pressed upon Ireland? Why, it was famine. It was a deficiency of the produce of the soil. It was a calamity inflicted upon the inhabitants of the country arising from the imperfect system by which they cultivated the land on which they lived. When their minds were so recently oppressed with the calamities which that famine produced in Ireland, and when they remembered the heavy burdens which those calamities entailed on England, with a view to exempt themselves in future from the recurrence of those evils, it could not be justly said that it was a misapplication of a small portion of the public revenue to devote it to the promotion of agricultural training in that country. It might be true that this system of gratuitous training of the people by public establishments might be carried too far. It was perfectly possible that those training schools and model farms might be carried beyond the necessity of the case, or the beneficial results that had been derived from them might have rendered them no longer necessary as permanent establishments. When those establishments had accomplished their purpose, they ought to be discontinued. If Ireland were raised to the level of England no one would think of asking Parliament to vote money for this purpose. He was, therefore, quite ready to admit that this Vote was a fit subject for revision, and it would be the duty of the Government to urge upon the Commissioners who had the management of those establishments to consider whether they were not now carried on on too extensive a scale, and whether some changes might not be made before the Estimates were again introduced by which their expense should be diminished, or by which they should be more distributed. He could not consent to the reduction of the present Vote, because the teachers were all engaged and had made their arrangements on the faith of their occupation being continued for another year, and it would he a most cruel thing to turn them adrift on a sudden.

MR. DISRAELI

said, that with respect to the observations of the noble Lord that he had himself on one occasion sanctioned a Vote similar to this, he would remind the Committee that when he (Mr. Disraeli) had the honour to assume a responsible position, it was one of the conditions agreed upon between the Government of which he was a Member and the House of Commons, that, in order to facilitate the progress of public business and expedite the making of an appeal to the country, they should accept and move the Estimates which had been prepared by their predecessors. Therefore this objection of the noble Lord, which would in no case have been of much importance, was in the present instance entirely without weight. He was surprised at the tone which the noble Lord had adopted in regard to this Vote. The noble Lord said that Ireland had been suffering from sectarian differences, and therefore we must establish model farms throughout the country. The speech of the noble Lord reminded him of the earlier years of his Parliamentary experience. He was in hopes that Ireland was a smiling and prosperous country, and one which England might at present regard almost with envy; but the noble Lord had revived such dreadful recollections of misgovernment that he had quite thrown a cloud over the debate. He should like to know for how many years Ireland had been misgoverned. For the last twenty-five years, with a very slight exception, the Whigs had governed the country, and for a considerable period before their term commenced the noble Lord had himself some share in the Government. Therefore, it did appear to him to be somewhat inopportune that the noble Lord, who had at least half a century of political responsibility for the government of Ireland, should have introduced such grave considerations into his vindication of this unhappy farm. The noble Lord was also an Irish landlord, and had therefore an additional feeling of responsibility. However, after the last observations of the noble Lord, so different from the first, he should be indisposed to inconvenience the Government by suddenly stopping a Vote of this kind. The noble Lord had made an appeal almost ad misericordiam, and had spoken of the professors and literary teachers as he would of the members of the Osmanli cavalry of the Contingent, who had just been enlisted, and were now about to be disbanded. Under such circumstances the Government ought to be spared unnecessary annoyance, especially after the assurance of the noble Lord that those Estimates would not again be submitted to the House in their present form. He understood, from the last observation of the noble Lord, that he had made up his mind that they were indefensible in principle and impossible in practice. ["No, no!"] If they were defensible in principle and possible in practice, he must have misunderstood the noble Lord and should certainly vote against them. If he was right in collecting from the speech of the noble Lord that he felt it would be inconvenient for the Government again to present them to the House, he thought the most temperate course would be not to press the Government, but to agree to the Vote, on the distinct understanding that it would not again be asked for by this or any other Government. If his impression were erroneous, he should feel it his duty to mark his sense of the impropriety of the Vote by supporting the Amendment of the hon. Member for Lambeth.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, he would not obtain the vote of the right hon. Gentleman under false pretences. He did not say that he disapproved the principle of this Vote. On the contrary, he did his best to show that that principle was a good one. What he said was, that there might be on the details matters for revision, and it would be the duty of the Government to urge the Commissioners to consider those details with a view to the reduction of the Estimate in future.

MR. DISRAELI

said, that if the noble Lord only said that the details of the Vote might be revised, he should vote for the Amendment. If the noble Lord said that those details should be revised, he should support the Government.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, that was exactly what he did say. He said that it would be the duty of the Government to urge the Commissioners to reconsider the details of the Estimate.

MR. HADFIELD

said, he thought the most injurious thing for Ireland was that too much was done for her. Let Ireland have justice done to her; let them, instead of grants of money, remove the evils of the Established Church. They would then be beginning at the right end. The fact was that sums of money were given to maintain an institution against the majority of the wishes of the people of Ireland. The noble Lord himself wished to have nothing to do with the educational question; but the fact was he was goaded by Gentlemen before and by Gentlemen behind, that he was obliged to go on. Let it be notified to the country that the entire education of the people was in the hands of Government. If they did not retrace their steps, they would bring the cause of education into obloquy and disgrace. He hoped to see the day when this system of jobbery would be given up.

MR. HANKEY

said, he wished for some explanation as to the item of £700 for gratuities for workhouse teachers in Ireland.

MR. SPOONER

said, he hoped, that if they were to divide, they would divide upon the real merits of the question. In respect to the hon. Member for Lambeth's Amendment, it appeared that it concerned the salaries of persons who were actually engaged for the ensuing year. Now, it would be doing those persons a great injustice if, by acceding to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Lambeth, they deprived the Government of the power of paying those persons. As they had received an assurance from the noble Lord at the head of the Government that this item would be reconsidered for the future, he hoped that the hon. Member (Mr. Williams) would not press his Amendment to a division.

MR.VANSITTART

said, that inasmuch as they took only a sum of money on account for education in England, he thought that they ought to take a similar course in respect to this Irish Vote. He would, therefore, move as an Amendment, that the Vote be reduced to £200,000.

Motion made, and Question proposed— That a sum, not exceeding £200,000, be granted to Her Majesty, for Public Education in Ireland, under the charge of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland, to the 31st day of March, 1857.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he was aware of the difficulty attending the success of his Amendment. He did not, therefore, wish to force the Committee to a division against the feeling of hon. Members. He thought that the best course to take was to postpone the Vote altogether.

MR. BLACKBURN

said, that he for one would be unwilling to give the Committee the trouble of dividing, if they received any pledge from the Government that the Vote would be reduced. It was £12,000 more than last year, being an item for the erection of buildings for which no contract had been as yet made. He did not approve of the Amendment to take a Vote on account, because that would involve the necessity of discussing the whole question again.

MR. MOWBRAY

said, there were two items in the Vote upon which he thought the Committee could test the sincerity of the Government. The one was an item of £3,000 towards the erection of a model district school in Londonderry, and the other was one of £4,000 towards the erection of a district model school on a site not as yet determined upon. He would therefore suggest to the hon. Member for Lambeth the propriety of altering his Amendment to the reduction of this item of £7,000 from the Vote.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, he thought that the Committee ought to be satisfied with the assurance that the whole subject should be referred to the Commissioners. By consenting to the suggestion just thrown out, the Committee would be acting entirely in the dark, for it might be that these two new schools proposed to be established were likely to be of more use than three or four others which might be abolished.

MR. VANSITTART

said, he would not press his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

MR. HORSMAN

said, in reference to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Durham (Mr. Mowbraw), it so happened that the two items referred to were for literary schools.

Question put— That a sum, not exceeding £212,736, be granted to Her Majesty, for Public Education in Ireland, under the charge of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland, to the 31st day of March, 1857.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 38; Noes 144: Majority 106.

Original Question again proposed.

MR. MOWBRAY

said, he should now move that the Vote be reduced by two items—£3,000 for the erection of a literary district model school in the city of Londonderry; and £4,000 for the erection of an additional institution of the same description, the site for which is not yet determined on.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he would second the Amendment, and also begged to call attention to the fact that, notwithstanding all these grants for agricultural purposes, only one student passed his examination for a diploma in agriculture at the Queen's University last year.

MR. HEYWORTH

said, he would support the Amendment, on the ground that such grants were inconsistent with the principles of political economy.

MR. I. BUTT

said, that the question raised by the Amendment was, whether it was right to have model literary schools? He hoped they would not be thrown over in the way proposed.

MR. BARROW

said, he was prepared to vote for the Amendment, on the ground that sufficient funds would remain, even if the £7,000 were deducted.

Motion made, and Question put— That a sum, not exceeding £220,641, be granted to Her Majesty, for Public Education in Ireland, under the charge of the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland, to the 31st day of March, 1857.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 41; Noes 126: Majority 85.

SIR JOHN SHELLEY

said, he wished some Member of the Government to explain, in regard to an item of £5,175 for the expenditure on a model farm of 178 acres, whether there was not a debtor and creditor account kept of the working of this farm, and whether or not the outlay upon it yielded any return?

Vote agreed to; as was also—

(9.) £21,182,700 to pay off Exchequer Bills.

House resumed.