HC Deb 21 May 1855 vol 138 cc862-3

On the Motion for considering the Amendments in this Bill,

MR. EVELYN DENISON

said, he wished to take that opportunity of making a few observations. The House had been pleased to receive this measure with so much favour that it was not necessary for him to offer any arguments with regard to it. If it had any defects he was answerable for them, but he had no right to claim any of its merits for himself, for they belonged to the Rev. Mr. Rixon, Canon of Manchester, who was the first to suggest a mode of dealing with this destitute class. The children of all persons receiving relief in workhouses did obtain education, and it was only the children of those who received relief out of the workhouses, the most destitute of all classes, who had no means of education provided for them. If from 100,000 to 200,000 of these children should now receive some education, the merit of the measure, he repeated, was due to Mr. Rixon. He would now move that the Bill be recommitted.

SIR STAFFORD NORTHCOTE

said, he begged to ask the right hon. President of the Poor Law Board if there would be any objection to the insertion in the Bill of a clause to enable the Guardians of the Poor to provide for the education of pauper children in reformatory or industrial schools? He wanted to know whether any provision would be made for providing instruction in these schools for children, who, though not actually criminal, were in circumstances which rendered it probable they would become so, if they were not previously properly taken care of.

MR. BAINES

said, that the reformatory schools were in almost all cases schools in which criminals were instructed, and there would be great and substantial objection to making them places of education for that portion of the population which was untainted by crime. He should very much regret to see any idea of that kind sanctioned by the Legislature. The other object to which the hon. Gentleman referred—namely, the education of the out-door poor in the workhouse schools—was already provided for under the first clause of the present Bill. There was a number of workhouses in this country, with very good schools, and with a comparatively small number of children attending them, and the guardians were extremely anxious to avail themselves of that accommodation for the purpose of educating the out-door pauper children, but hitherto had no power to do so. The present Bill, however, would make provision for cases of that kind.

MR. HENLEY

said, he thought that nothing would be more cruel than, because a child was unfortunately a pauper, to cause it to associate in any way with criminals. He believed the Bill would do a great deal of good, and that the Boards of Guardians would, to a great degree, avail themselves of its provisions.

LORD JOHN MANNERS

said, he would beg to suggest that, in accordance with the rule which had governed poor-law legislation of late years, the word "pauper" should be struck out of the Bill, and "poor person" inserted instead.

MR. BAINES

said, that the word only occurred in the title of the Bill, and could of course be altered in Committee.

The Motion for the recommitment of the Bill having been agreed to, the House resolved into Committee upon it.

Clause 1 was agreed to, as were also the remaining clauses of the Bill.

MR. BAINES

said, he would now bring forward the following Clause:— In the case of any child of such age as aforesaid, relieved out of the workhouse, which child has been deserted by its parents or surviving parent, or both of whose parents are dead, it shall be lawful for such guardians, in like manner, and with the like discretion as aforesaid, to grant relief for the purpose of providing education for such child in any such school as aforesaid.

In reply to a question from Sir STAFFORD NORTHCOTE,

MR. BAINES

said, the Bill as it now stood, provided that children who had not been guilty of crime might be sent to any industrial or reformatory school, with the consent of the parents of such children and the guardians of the poor—the guardians, of course, defraying the expense of their maintenance.

Clause agreed to.

House resumed.

Bill reported, as amended.

The House adjourned at Eight o'clock.