HC Deb 12 March 1855 vol 137 cc419-37

On the Motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee of Supply,

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON

I wish, Sir, to take this opportunity of calling the attention of the House to the present extraordinary state of the Colonial Department; and, in doing so, not only do I wish to address inquiries to Her Majesty's Government on the subject, but to call their attention to a state of the public business as connected with that department which is not only unusual and extremely unsatisfactory, but which also appears to me to be hardly decorous. Since I made some inquiries on this subject some time ago, questions have been put in another place upon the same subject, and the answers to those questions are so little satisfactory that I feel bound to renew the inquiries, and to ask for a reply from the noble Lord at the head of the Government. When, on a former occasion, I inquired of that noble Lord what were the prospects of a responsible Minister taking charge of the colonial affairs of this country, I was told that the absence of the noble Lord the Member for London would not be so long as I supposed; and I find that the other night, when a similar inquiry was made in another place, precisely the same words were used in reply. Now, I beg to remind the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) that neither the noble Lord who made that inquiry nor myself expressed or, indeed, entertained any supposition on that subject. We wanted to know the supposition of the noble Lord himself. We found the Colonial Department without any responsible Minister to transact the business of that department, and we wished to be informed by Her Majesty's Government how long this state of things was likely to continue. But part of the answer given to the inquiries in another place struck me as being so peculiar that I think it forms an additional reason for calling for some further explanation. If I am rightly informed, the noble Lord who replied to that question stated that it was not the intention of the noble Lord the Member for London, who is now at Vienna, to do more than settle the general principles of a treaty, and that he should not think it necessary to remain until all the details of that treaty were arranged. Now, it seems to me that that was a most extraordinary, and, I must also say, a most unsatisfactory statement. I certainly thought that the general principles of those negotiations had been already laid down. I should have thought that the general principles of any treaty to be now formed, or any negotiations to be entered into, were the simplest and easiest part of the duty of the noble Lord, and that the most important part of that which he had to decide upon—having been sent on a special mission of this kind—was to settle all those details which are so essential and important to the satisfactory arrangement of a treaty of this kind. I can only conclude from the statement to which I am referring that the noble Lord the Member for London finds himself so embarrassed by the two incompatible positions which he now fills that, after having left the colonial business in this country in a state of uncertainty, he is about to return to it without finishing the negotiations he has undertaken. My object, however, has not so much relation to the negotiations at Vienna as connection with the state of the colonial business in this country. Under all circumstances, I believe there never was a moment when it was of more importance that there should be a responsible and an able Minister at the head of that department than the present moment, when the Colonial Secretary is at Vienna conducting a negotiation. I believe such a state of things is not only, as I have said, most unusual, but that, in fact, it is without precedent. I am perfectly aware of the fact that Lord Castlereagh, during the time he was holding the office of Secretary of State, went to Vienna to conduct negotiations, but the House will remember that at that time Lord Castlereagh held the office of Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, and that the business on which he went to Vienna was closely connected with the department he conducted and the office he held; but I know no case similar to that which we now contemplate of the business of a great department, at a moment of peculiar interest and importance, left without any representative in Parliament, not even an Under Secretary of State, to answer an inquiry in this House, and having its Secretary of State engaged in the conduct of negotiations at Vienna. I am aware the right hon. Baronet opposite me (Sir G. Grey), who now holds the office of Secretary of State for the Home Department, has intimated that he would give his attention to colonial affairs. I do not wish to disparage the right hon. Baronet's well-known abilities, but I affirm that neither the right hon. Baronet nor any other man is competent to discharge, for any lengthened period, the duties of those two important departments together. I consider that the attempt to do so is to hold out a most false view of public affairs, by leading the country to suppose that one man can duly discharge them, especially at a moment like the present. I beg to remind the House of the threatening—I will not say alarming—intimation which, since the noble Lord accepted the seals of the Colonial Department, we have received from the Cape of Good Hope. I am informed, though I speak under correction, having no official knowledge, that the well-known chief Moshesh, one of the most powerful chiefs of South Africa, and one who is at the head of a powerful tribe, has already given cause for considerable uneasiness. I hear also, for the first time, that there is reason to fear not only the Kafir but the Fingo tribe, hitherto one of the tribes most devoted to British interests. It is too possible that the state of England at this moment, involved as the country is in a great European war, may have become known to the intelligent natives of Southern Africa, and may in some degree have contributed to the course they are supposed to have taken. The House will recollect that we have lately sent a new Governor to South Africa—a gentleman well known in other colonies, and who, no doubt, would he most attentive to his duties in South Africa; but still he has had no experience of the circumstances to which I have adverted, and this I say is another reason, and a strong one, why the exclusive attention of some Minister should be devoted to colonial affairs. Then again, what is the state of the colony of Victoria? In Victoria, if the accounts are true, we have had a proceeding which I can only speak of as an insurrection. Blood has been shed. There has been a struggle—a most anxious and exciting struggle. Between that mixed and peculiar population, which now fills the gold districts and Her Majesty's troops a collision has taken place, and although by the decision evinced by Sir Charles Hotham the disturbance has been put an end to, there remains the fact that the state of Victoria is a most critical one. This is not the only question of interest in Victoria. I again speak under correction, but, so far as I have been informed, I believe a question which has much agitated that district of late, is that of the admission of convicts. The Convict Prevention Bill is still an unsettled question, and there is a strong, and not an unnatural, feeling on the part of the colonists of Victoria with reference to the indiscriminate admission of a large number of convicts from Van Diemen's Land. This, then, is another ground for anxiety, and a most important reason why some Minister should be here to devote his exclusive attention to these serious affairs. I say also it is not satisfactory to have these Australian Constitution Bills hung up as they now are for an indefinite period, waiting the return of the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) from Vienna. These Constitution Bills are part of a bargain entered into by the Government of Lord Derby, with which I had the honour of being connected, whereby certain concessions were made to the colonies, the most important of which was, that they should have the management of the land in their own hands, on condition of improving their constitution. The colonies have performed their part; they have sent home these Bills for altering the constitution, and two years have elapsed and yet nothing has been done on them. I have some doubt whether those Bills ought not to have been proceeded with last year, and I don't know what explanation the right hon. Baronet can give on that point; but two years have passed since the required concessions have been made, and I know, as I have said before, that gentlemen of great eminence in these colonies are now in England at much inconvenience waiting until the Bills pass; and when they call at the Colonial Office they are told that the whole matter must await the return of the Secretary of State for the Colonies (Lord J. Russell) from Vienna. Now, Sir, I have mentioned several important subjects involving questions of high State policy, and requiring the attention of a Minister of State; let me remind the House these are not all. I see before me hon. Members who have been connected with the Colonial Office, and who know the truth of what I say when I state that scarcely a day passes when there do not come despatches from every part of our colonial empire, some involving matters of high State policy, such as I have already adverted to, and other personal questions of local interest—questions of individual right and individual justice—and I do say that Her Majesty's Government ought to be in a position to give such matters attention. The colonies labour under sufficient disadvantage in being at so great a distance from this country, and I think that when they bring forward matters such as those to which I have adverted, they have a right to expect that there should be a Minister ready and willing to attend to them. It is altogether inconsistent with the usual course of public business in this country that there should be no Minister to attend to matters of great colonial importance when they are brought here; and I must say, that I think, when the country finds one great department of the State, involving interests of vast magnitude, to be thus neglected, that it will occasion feelings of great dissatisfaction. But consider the question in another light—what will be the effect upon the minds of the colonists? Will not they feel justly that this practical suspension of attention to their affairs, and this absence of the Colonial Minister, are in a great degree disrespectful to them? I think that it is natural that such should be the case, and I have reason to believe that it is so; because I know that that will be the light in which some of the most important colonies of the Crown will regard the present state of the Colonial Office, What is the moment when this neglect is exhibited? It is a time when the colonies have come forward and have evinced a most laudable desire to support the mother country in the war in which she is engaged. From one end of the colonial empire to the other assurances have been received by Her Majesty of loyal co-operation and devoted sympathy in the struggle in which this country is engaged; and there could not, therefore, have been a moment more unhappily chosen for taking a disrespectful step towards the colonial empire than the present. I have felt, Sir, it to be my duty to call the attention of the Government to this subject, and I trust that the noble Lord at the head of the Government will give some assurance with respect to it more distinct and satisfactory than he has yet done. We have been told in another place, that the noble Lord the Member for London is expected to return to this country about Easter. But that assurance has been given in a very vague and indefinite manner; and, looking at the nature of the negotiations in which the noble Lord is about to be engaged, I think it extremely improbable that he will be here so soon as Easter. But, even if he should, I contend that the delay which has already taken place, is one which ought not to have occurred. Unless we can obtain a distinct assurance upon this subject, I hope that Parliament will consider it to be its duty to interfere to put an end to this unsatisfactory state of things; but I trust that the First Lord of the Treasury will be able to hold out an assurance, that before long there will be at the head of the Colonial Department, some responsible Minister who can give his undivided attention to the important duties required of him.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

Sir, I must entirely deny the assumption on which the right hon. Baronet opposite grounds his observations—namely, that colonial matters are neglected, or that any slight has been placed upon the important colonies of this country. The right hon. Baronet says there should be some person in Parliament responsible for what they have done, or have not done with regard to the colonies. Sir, there are persons in Parliament so responsible. My right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for the Home Department and myself are responsible; and if the right hon. Baronet or any other hon. Member of this House thinks fit to bring forward any charge against the Government for neglect of colonial matters, we are perfectly ready to stand here in our places to justify our course, and to be responsible for the management of them to the country. The right hon. Baronet expressed a very natural curiosity to know what is the particular course which my noble Friend at Vienna is going to pursue in the negotiation with which he is charged—what he is to insist upon—how long is he to insist upon it—what he is to be satisfied with—when he is to come home—or if he is going to break off the negotiation or to conclude it. I am sorry I am not at liberty consistently with my public duty to gratify the very natural curiosity of the right hon. Baronet. [Sir J. PAKINGTON: I made no such inquiry.] The right hon. Baronet made something very like an inquiry. I can only say, Sir, from the communications we have received, that we do not anticipate that my noble Friend's stay in Vienna will be so protracted as the right hon. Baronet expects it to be. But really the way in which this question is put would lead one to think that never was there a case before in which an office was vacant or the holder of an office was absent. But the right hon. Baronet himself gave an instance of a case in which a Secretary of State was very long absent from this country, and although the matters which he had to deal with were connected with the department which he held, yet, allow me to say, that there was a vast number of other important affairs to be dealt with by the department at home, and though no minister was there, the officers of the Foreign Office did not follow Lord Castlereagh when he went to attend a congress at Vienna or at Paris. Does not the right hon. Baronet recollect the period when one individual held the offices of all the Secre- taries of State, and from the beginning of November to the end of December or the beginning of January, was the only responsible person accountable for all the offices? There was such a period, and I think the right hon. Baronet, on refreshing his memory, will find that he was not much disposed at that time to find fault with the arrangement. I deny that any inconvenience is sustained, or that colonial affairs are at all neglected. Any decision that is to be taken, will be taken on the responsibility of my right hon. Friend (Sir G. Grey), aided if necessary by the concurrence of his colleagues, and we stand here responsible for my noble Friend (Lord John Russell), and in his place, and perfectly ready to answer upon any matter in which the management of the Colonial Department may be questioned either by the right hon. Baronet or any other person in this House.

MR. ADDERLEY

said, he thought the question before the House was whether such a combination of offices as at present existed was advisable without absolute necessity. If the noble Lord had made out such a case of necessity no person could say anything, for necessity overrides all laws; but the noble Lord merely sought to shelve the question by saying that if the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Pakington) had any charge against the Government let it be brought forward. There was no charge made against the Government; the question was not put in the shape of a definite Motion, and could in no way embarrass the Government. If the Government could not recommend any person to Her Majesty to take this department, the question would be embarrassing; but they had no idea that the noble Viscount was reduced to such an extremity. He would support the right hon. Baronet if he pressed the question by a definite Motion, because he could not see that it would embarrass the Government. It would be small consolation to him if the present state of affairs shook the attachment of some of the Colonies, or caused the loss of others of them, that they should be able to impeach the noble Lord or to inflict condign punishment upon him. If the noble Lord could even be beheaded it would be little consolation to him (Mr. Adderley), or to the country, if the Colonial Empire of England was damaged. The present was a most critical period in colonial affairs, and was the most unfortunate that could have been chosen for a combination of offices. At the close of the last century, when Mr. Dundas was offered the War Office, it was observed by him that he had all work and no patronage. The Colonial Office was therefore thrown in, where there was no work, while, at the same time, it was full of patronage. But that was not the case in these days. The consequence of the junction of the War and the Colonial Departments was a state of such confusion in the office that it had been wittily described by Lord Derby as "the office at war with all the Colonies." As long as the injury produced by this arrangement was confined to the Colonies no alteration was made, but when it was brought home to ourselves by the breaking out of the war it was found necessary to separate the two offices. He was willing to allow that if ever the colonial sytem of England became what it ought to be, the work of the Colonial Office would be so far reduced as might even admit of its being added to the Home Department, but the Colonies had not yet arrived at that position of self-administration which he hoped they were destined soon to attain. They were only in a transition state at present, but the system of local self-government had been recognised, and when it should be fully carried out, there perhaps would no longer be any necessity for a separate Colonial Department. At the present moment constituent powers were being given to the principal Colonies, but agents who came over with Constitution Bills and Petitions from those Colonies found the Colonial Office shut up. The Constitution Bills of the Australian Colonies were now in the hands of the Government, and it was a matter of paramount necessity that they should pass without delay. He hoped, therefore, that the Government would not wait until negotiations at Vienna, which had nothing to do with them, were completed before deciding what course should be taken with respect to them. He believed that the riots which had taken place at Victoria, and which had produced the lamentable result of the first Australian blood having been drawn by English troops, might have been avoided if there had been no delay in establishing the Constitutions of that Colony; but at all events, if the Colony had enjoyed self-government the responsibility of the measure which had led to the rioting would have rested with the Colonial Legislature, and this country would in no way have been implicated in the matter. Again, there was some apprehension of an outbreak in South Africa. Now, if that Colony had been entrusted with the power of local self-government it would, of course, have taken measures for its own self-defence, and this country need not have been under any anxiety about the threatened war. The cause of all the Kafir wars had been the destruction of the local system of self-defence in that Colony. There were other omissions which showed the necessity for the Colonial Minister being at his post. Had the noble Lord been at home, he was sure Canada would not have remained so long without receiving the formal thanks both of Parliament and of the Sovereign for the loyal and patriotic spirit which the Colony had evinced towards the mother country in connection with the war, nor would the offers which parties residing in that Colony had made to raise regiments at their own expense to serve in the Crimea have long remained not only unaccepted, but even unanswered. It might be a matter of sentiment, but it was a matter of the most important consideration, that the Colonies were deeply attached to the Sovereign of this country; that feeling, however, was a sensitive feeling; they were proud of being connected with this country; they were proud of owing allegiance to Her Majesty; but pride is of a sensitive character; the slightest breath that was cast upon this feeling of honourable attachment, calculated to imply neglect or contempt, might convert it into a feeling of hostility and alienation. He was afraid some such construction might be put upon the absence of the present Colonial Minister, and rejoiced therefore to find that the subject had been brought under the notice of the House.

SIR GEORGE GREY

I do not think, Sir, the question raised by the right hon. Baronet the Member for Droitwich is whether an indispensable necessity existed for my noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) to accept the seals of the Colonial Department while he was on his way to act as the Plenipotentiary of this country at Vienna; nor do I think that a question is raised on the present occasion as to the permanent union of the Colonial Office with another great department of State, but the question is whether such a degree of public inconvenience arises from the arrangement made for the conduct of the business of the Colonial Department, during the temporary absence of my noble Friend at Vienna, as to call for the interference of this House. Well, then, Sir, that being the question, I am perfectly ready to state that I do not feel myself competent to undertake permanently, or for any length of time, the duties of the two offices which I now virtually fill, and I shall be sincerely rejoiced when I am released from the additional responsibility which has been thrown upon me by the return of my noble Friend from Vienna. When my noble Friend had intimated his willingness to accept the seals of the Colonial Department it appeared to me, so far from that acceptance being looked upon as an insult by the Colonies, that the colonists would hail it with satisfaction; and when he asked me to act for him during the few weeks which would probably elapse before his return, I said that, although I felt the additional responsibility which would be thrown upon me, I thought it was a duty owed to the country not to shrink front giving any assistance in my power to an arrangement which I believed to be conducive to the interests of the Colonies. When, however, I hear the hon. Member for North Staffordshire (Mr. Adderley) state to the House that the whole of the colonial business is at a stand—that, in fact, the office is shut up, and there is no one there to attend to business at all—I must take leave to contradict that statement, and, still more, to say that I do not believe that during the short time the present arrangement has existed any practical inconvenience whatever has resulted. As to the case of such an arrangement being permanent, or, indeed, long protracted, I admit the force of the argument of the hon. Gentleman, but I trust that the absence of my noble Friend will not be of any long duration. If the arrangement had been of a permanent character there might have been some force in the observations which have been addressed to the House; but being only intended to last for a few weeks, I cannot help thinking that they are quite uncalled for. I do not think it advisable now to enter into the subjects of discussion which the hon. Gentleman who last addressed us touched upon, either respecting transportation or with reference to the offer from Canada to send a regiment to the Crimea, I can only say that I do not think that even the ingenuity of the hon. Gentleman can in any way connect that circumstance with the arrangement now existing in the Colonial Office. I will, however, briefly advert to the four cases in which it has been stated that inconvenience has arisen front the present arrangement. First, with regard to the Cape of Good Hope. The letters which have been received from the Governor give only too much reason to apprehend that the peace which had been established with the Kafir tribes was one which could not be considered permanent, unless measures were taken to consolidate the arrangements which had been made, and to provide efficiently for the safety of the Colony, and it therefore became my duty to press upon the Colonial Government the importance of inviting the attention of the Legislature at the Cape to those measures which appeared to be indispensable towards completing the defence of the Colony. Yesterday week despatches were received from the Governor at the Cape stating that he had received intelligence which rendered it incumbent upon hint at once to go to the frontier. That intelligence was no doubt, of an alarming character, but, at the same time, it was doubtful and conflicting, inasmuch as persons who possessed equally good opportunities of acquiring information give a different version of the state of feeling among the Kafir tribes. It is, however, impossible to deny that the state of the Colony is critical. It appears, however, that the Governor was on the point of proceeding to the frontier, but he did not think that it would be necessary for him to use the power which he possessed of drawing a regiment from the Mauritius, or that he should be obliged to call upon the home Government for any additional force. I am at present stating the opinion of the Governor, but at the same time it is impossible to say that events will not occur to change that opinion. The Government have had the despatch of the Governor before them, and they have taken it without delay into consideration, and have adopted those measures which appeared to be necessary for strengthening the hands of the Governor. I do not know what my noble Friend would have done had he not gone to Vienna, but I do not think that he could have done more than has been done, nor am I prepared to admit that, acting as I have acted, with the concurrence of my colleagues, any danger or inconvenience has arisen to the public service. The next point to which come is the state of the Colony of Victoria, and the disturbances alleged to have taken place there. I can only say that the Government have as yet received no official information on the subject of those disturbances. I was surprised that the right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Pakington), upon information so imperfect as that which has reached this country, and knowing the patriotic feeling which existed in the colonies, should apply to those disturbances the epithet of "insurrection." I believe, and I judge only from the information which has appeared in the public prints, that the tumult was suppressed in about twenty minutes, not, however, unfortunately, without some loss of life, and I trust that future accounts will show that the affair was not so serious as has been represented; but, however that may be, I ask what, if my noble Friend had been in England, could he have done under the circumstances when the same account which informs us of the tumult also informs us that it has been suppressed, and that peace and order have been restored throughout the district? With regard to the supposed Newfoundland difficulty, I believe that all great questions relating to that Colony had been settled before I gave up the seals of the Colonial Office, and I am not aware that any question remained, except, indeed, one to which the right hon. Baronet has referred. The deputation to which he alluded were the bearers of an application on the part of the late Assembly of Newfoundland, for the removal of the Governor of that Colony, who was appointed by the right hon. Gentleman in 1852. I am bound to say that I do not think that the removal of a Governor of a colony is a question upon which a Secretary of State ought to announce any decision at a private interview. With regard to the Australian Constitution Bills, I had hoped before the present time to be able to submit to the House certain measures upon the subject of those Bills, but the case has not been quite correctly stated. The right hon. Baronet said that those Bills were passed two years ago, and he complained that they were still lying in the Colonial Office.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON

said, he wished to explain that he had not stated that the Bills were passed two years ago, but what he said was, that the arrangements which had been made two years ago had led to these Bills.

SIR GEORGE GREY

It is quite true that the despatch which led to those Bills was written two years ago, but let us see if there is any real foundation for the charge of delay brought against the Colonial Office. Three Bills were passed—one relating to Victoria, another to New South Wales, and another to South Australia. One of those Bills, and that not the least important of them—the one relating to Victoria—was only received in the month of May last. All these Bills required the most careful investigation, and they were referred to the legal advisers of the Crown, whose Report was not received until after the prorogation of Parliament, so that it was impossible that any steps could have been taken in the matter last Session. The right hon. Gentleman does not appear rightly to apprehend the course which has been adopted. The real state of the case is, that the colonies understood that they were invited by the right hon. Gentleman himself not to confine themselves to the powers conferred upon them by the Act of 1850, but to go beyond those powers, and to pass Bills which, professing to alter Imperial Acts, could not receive the assent of the Crown unless with the previous consent of Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman has referred to four Bills, and I may state at once that, in the case of the three Colonies to which I have alluded, I think that the course which was adopted of not confining them to the powers conferred upon them by the Act of 1850, but of permitting them to go beyond those powers, was most inconvenient. In the case of Van Diemen's Land, where no Act had yet been passed, I pointed out the inconvenience of the course which had been adopted in those Colonies, and I suggested that the Legislature of that Colony should confine themselves within the powers conferred on them by the Act of 1850, and since I relinquished the seals of the Colonial Office I have received from the Governor of Van Diemen's Land a despatch transmitting an Act which has been passed by the inhabitants of that Colony in accordance with my suggestion, which he tells me will, in his opinion, work well. In this case, therefore, the assent of the Crown may be given without the consent of Parliament, and the result will be that the Act which was last passed will probably come first into operation. When I said that I hoped to have been able to introduce Bills upon these subjects, I must remind the right hon. Gentleman that it is not an easy thing to introduce a Bill of importance, and to secure the attention of the House to it, at a period when it is engaged in voting the means for carrying on the war, and I do not think that any of the nights appropriated to Government business this Session could have been spared for the consideration of the measures to which I have referred. I can also state that I have been in communication with my noble Friend (Lord J. Russell) on the subject of these Bills, and that he has devoted great attention to the subject. I hope that the result of this discussion will be to remove any impression that the Colonies are being neglected; and I can only add that, although the present arrangement could not, in my opinion, be justified as a permanent one, still, for a brief period, no inconvenience will be felt in consequence of it.

MR. LOWE

said, he was desirous of offering a few observations on a remark made by the right hon. Member for Droitwich, who had said that he had entered into a compact with the Australian colonies. The right hon. Baronet had not said what that compact was, but he gave the House to understand that the form of constitution to be submitted to the House was in a great measure the result of a compact which he had entered into with the Colonies when he was Colonial Secretary. Now, he (Mr. Lowe) considered that it would be most injurious if the compact which the right hon. Gentleman seemed to have entered into should be carried out; and when the proper time came for so doing he believed that he could show the House conclusive reasons why such a compact should not be sanctioned. At present he would confine himself to explaining why he thought that the right hon. Gentleman should not have entered into the compact to which he had referred. In 1850 it had been the pleasure of the House, contrary to his (Mr. Lowe's) opinion, to delegate to the Australian Colonies, unversed as three out of four were in the ordinary functions of self-government, the powers of a Constituent Assembly, the power of forming their own constitution. He objected to this, because he did not think that the Colonies were at that time sufficiently advanced to effectually carry out the powers so delegated, and the result had confirmed this impression. The policy of the Act of 1850 was this—the House washed its hands of the question of the colonial constitutions, and left to the Legislature of the Colony the power of choosing that which it might deem best, preserving to Her Majesty, but not to that House, the power of assenting to, or of disapproving thereof. He thought that, after this Act, the attitude of that House towards the colonial Legislatures on the subject of their future constitutions ought to have been one of rigid impartiality; it ought to have abstained from expressing any wish with reference to the constitution of the Colony; because, in the first place, by the expression of such a wish, or by the use of any influence to carry it into effect, they were contravening the spirit of the Act of Parliament; and, secondly, they were by so doing throwing upon the Government of this country a responsibility which ought to devolve on the colonial Legislature. Unhappily, the right hon. Member for Droitwich did not take this view of the case, but in 1852 as Secretary of State for the Colonies, he addressed a despatch to the Governor General of Australia, in which he stated that it was his opinion that the Upper House in the Legislature ought to be nominated by the Crown. He would not now discuss the propriety of such a nomination, as the question was one which Parliament in 1850 had delegated to the Colonies, but it appeared to him (Mr. Lowe) the right hon. Gentleman had misconstrued the Act of 1850, and mistaken his duty as Colonial Minister, when he offered to give the Colonial Legislatures absolute dominion over the waste lands of the Colonies if they would consent to the Upper House being nominated by the Crown. He would beg to ask the right hon. Gentleman and the House what possible interest they could have in preventing the Colonial Legislatures from adopting a form of government which seemed to them best suited to their local circumstances, and why should they give their dominion over their waste lands to induce them to do so? What would the right hon. Gentleman have effected even if he succeeded in fixing on the necks of the colonists that which was detested by the majority—namely, a nominated Upper House? Why, the result would be that, instead of the unpopularity of such a step devolving on the colonial Legislature, it would devolve upon the Home Government, and the policy of the Act of 1850, which was to relieve the Government of this country from such a responsibility, would be evaded. He, for one, protested against the House of Commons or the Government being in any way bound by what had been done by the right hon. Gentleman. He would not at present anticipate discussion on this question, but would enter fully into it whenever it should be submitted for their consideration; but, in the meantime, he begged the House not to consider the question prejudged or prejudiced by any step which had been taken by the right hon. Gentleman. He also begged the right hon. Gentleman (Sir G. Grey) who for a time would hold the seals of the Colonial Office to avoid the example set him by his predecessor, and to deal with this question in a spirit of impartiality, and, whether his opinions were in favour of a nominated or elected Upper House, not to let that weigh with him as a grain of dust, but to look at the will of the colonists and to abide by it if he thought it expressed by the decision of the Legislature; but if, on the other hand, he should feel satisfied that the Legislature had been induced, either by the right hon. Member for Droitwich, or by other circumstances, to come to a decision disapproved by the majority of the colonists, then he ought not to allow himself to be led away by such a decision. These Colonies, under the inducements held out to them by the right hon. Member for Droitwich, and not availing themselves of the power given in the Act of 1850, had sent to this country long Acts, in which they had given to themselves powers hitherto not possessed by them; had dealt with the most difficult questions of the Royal prerogative and the relations of the Colonies to the mother country; had given full retiring salaries to public officers, who, in pursuance of the wish expressed by the right hon. Member for Droitwich, had voted for a nominated Upper House; and had also given pledges and guarantees to persons having very dubious titles to vast quantities of the public land. The House would not, if the request of the Legislatures were complied with, have to go through these Bills clause by clause, but would, by a short Bill, have to confirm them; therefore, the moderate request which would be made to the House would amount to this—it would, because the Colonial Legislature had, in excess of its powers, passed a Bill of enormous length and perplexity, be asked to renounce its right of dealing with the many subjects it contained, and to give validity to them all in a lump. He earnestly, therefore, entreated the Government and the House not to be persuaded by the clamour or declamation of any persons who might be sent by the Colonies to so far forget their duty and dignity as to delegate to others their powers and responsibilities by consenting to pass in a lump seventy or eighty clauses of these Acts, merely because they had been passed by the Colonial Legislature. The right hon. Member for Droitwich talked of contracts between this Government and the Colonies. He begged that his (Mr. Lowe's) experience in these matters might have some weight, and entreated the right hon. Gentleman to avoid all contracts between the Imperial Government and the Colonies. If he thought that there were matters over which the Colony ought to have authority let him concede them—if it were deemed advisable, as he (Mr. Lowe) thought it was, that the colonies should have dominion over the waste lands, let it be given them; but it should not be given as conditional on what the Colonies should do. The right hon. Member should avoid making this House a party to maintaining the Legislature against the opinion of the majority of the Colonists, and still less should he involve it in giving pledges of retiring salaries or guarantees of permanent possession to persons holding in some cases 1,000,000 acres of land a-piece. He could assure the House that, unless it acted with the greatest circumspection in this matter, unless it fully asserted its own dignity, unless it avoided involving itself in any guarantees, and unless it kept clear of interference with the Colonies, it would be sowing the seeds of endless confusion, bickering, and disturbance, which would drive them ultimately to draw the sword against their fellow-subjects, or oblige them altogether to surrender their Australian Colonies.

SIR JOHN PAKINGTON

said, he hoped he might be allowed to express his regret, that the hon. Gentleman did not hear more distinctly what he had said upon this subject. The hon. Member had entirely misunderstood not only his intentions, but the expressions which he had written. When the proper time arrived, he hoped he would be able to give a clear version of his acts as Colonial Minister, which could not under any circumstances warrant the construction put upon them by the hon. Member.

MR. JOHN MACGREGOR

said, he very much objected to the interests of the Colonies being neglected to suit the convenience of any Government. He believed the negotiations at Vienna would be so long, so tedious, so uncertain and contradictory, from day to day, that the most extraordinary difficulties would attend the conferences. That was well understood in France, where the Government did not entertain the opinion that they would lead to a speedy peace. Under these circumstances, the absence of the Colonial Secretary at Vienna showed either that there was a great dearth of men in the party with which the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) was connected, and from which he had formed his Government, or that there was a determination that the great offices of State should be filled by no other persons than those who had occupied them for the last twenty or twenty-five years. He must deny that it was impossible for the colonial Governments, as they were now constituted, to fulfil the duties expected of them by the colonists, and furthermore he apprehended that the present state of things was attended with considerable embarrassment and peril. His experience of the Canadians induced him to believe that they would be ready to conclude that they were now treated with the same contumely and insult which had led to the separation of the old American colonies. No motives of convenience and no Cabinet arrangements could justify any such neglect of the colonies as was evinced by the present arrangements of the Administration.

MR. J. G. PHILLIMORE

said, he held that the present was an anomalous and extraordinary situation, resulting from the peculiar exigencies of a crisis almost unprecedented, but he thought the experience of the noble Lord the Member for London peculiarly qualified him for the management of our colonial empire. He hoped that an idea so mischievous as that of a return to the former system of transportation would never find a place in the breast of any English statesman. That system offered a premium on crime in this country, whilst it was odious and despicable to the colonists. He was afraid the noble Lord would find that the ticket-of-leave system could not be persevered in; and if it were, it would produce a complete change in the manners and customs of this country and the rules of its Government.