HC Deb 31 July 1855 vol 139 cc1589-604

(46.) 10,000l., Wages to Artificers, &c., in Her Majesty's Establishments at Home.

SIR CHARLES WOOD

Mr. FitzRoy, I now beg to move the Supplementary Naval Estimate for the year 1855ndash;56 (amounting to 1,141,168l.) With one great exception, this Supplementary Estimate consists of additions to the different heads of expenditure, entirely caused by the demands of the war in which we are at present engaged. The first item, which is for the wages of artificers in Her Majesty's establishments at home, is rendered necessary by the increased drain on the stock of our dockyards in this country; and, the second item, which is classed under the head of wages to artificers abroad, is taken for the purpose of enabling us to establish a small dockyard at Constantinople, where our ships may be repaired without being obliged to go on to Malta. In the third Vote the largest items are for copper and hemp. Formerly our largest supply of this latter article was derived from Russia, but since the war other sources have been opened to us which promise to be exceedingly abundant, and which hereafter, I have little doubt, may compete with Russia. The Italian spring seed has, I believe, turned out very favourably, and a considerable supply from Hungary has lately been offered to us. There is a large item under the head of what are called standing contracts—for the supply of ordinary articles used in fitting out ships. With so large a fleet at sea the demand for anchors and things of that sort has been, of course, greatly increased; indeed, in twelve great articles which come under the head of "standing contracts" the expenditure for the last three months is higher than it was for the six months ending September last. There is a small sum for medical stores, which, perhaps, may not all be wanted, but which we have thought better to ask for in order to be prepared for all the wants which may arise; and there is also a small sum for rewards to seamen for the destruction of four Chinese pirates and of a Russian ship of war. The largest item of expenditure is for the purpose of enabling us to build an additional number of gunboats. When the war commenced, I believe we had not a single vessel of this description, but the right hon. Gentleman (Sir J. Graham) who preceded me, in the last year built six gunboats, which have been of the greatest possible service in the Black Sea and in the Sea of Azoff, particularly at the capture of Kertch. I had the greatest pleasure the other day in promoting two officers who had distinguished themselves in command of these boats in that quarter. Other vessels of the same description have been despatched to the Baltic, and one of them has already enabled a very deserving mate to earn his promotion. But, notwithstanding the progress we have made in building vessels of this description, their number is still very inadequate, and it is proposed to double that number at least, as soon as possible; in fact, I do not think we can have too many of them. The nature of the seas in which our naval warfare is being carried on requires that we should have a large number of vessels of small draught, but capable of carrying large guns; indeed, some naval officers say, that in all future naval wars gunboats will take a much more prominent position than has hitherto been the case. The demand, however, at present is for, boats of this description; we are building them as fast as we can, and it is for the purpose of constructing these boats and for their machinery that we now propose to take a sum of 526,000l.

MR. FRENCH

said, he wished to know why the resources of science were not employed to a greater extent in the present war? He should like to receive further information than had already been given as to the intentions of the Government respecting the proposals of the Earl of Dundonald. The plans of that gallant Nobleman were not new; more than forty years ago they were submitted to the scrutiny of Lord Exmouth and Lord Keith, who were impressed with a conviction of the terrific efficiency of the plans, but suggested that for the sake of the human race they should remain unknown. Those plans had slept for forty years, and were only brought forward now when the position of the country required every man's aid. The Government had referred those plans to a joint Commission composed of several scientific men and two admirals. Although a considerable time had now elapsed, no answer had yet been returned to the noble and gallant Earl. It had been said that, however ingenious the plans, there existed doubts as to the expediency of carrying them into effect. Lately those plans had been submitted to Sir Charles Napier, who pledged his professional reputation that Lord Dundonald could by them accomplish all he had undertaken to do. The noble and gallant Earl had undertaken, if permitted to carry out his plans, that, within a month of his arrival in the Baltic, every Russian fort should be demolished, and the entire expense should be less than 200,000l. The right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Admiralty appeared to think the noble Lord's plans were impracticable, but it had been well observed by a leading journal that the life of that noble Lord had been spent in executing what the right hon. Gentleman would consider to be impossibilities. He (Mr. French) believed the country would not have begrudged an additional 200,000l. to carry out those plans, and if the Government did not avail itself of all the scientific discoveries of the age, the country would not fail to doubt its sincerity in the conduct of the war.

SIR GEORGE PECHELL

said, he thought if the plans of Lord Dundonald were so tremendous as they were stated to be, the only reason why they were not adopted must be that they were more dangerous to the parties employing them than to the enemy against whom they were used. With respect to the particular Vote before the Committee, he could only say he was glad to find that the Government was providing a sufficient fleet of gunboats, for there was little doubt but that vessels of that class with steam power would hereafter play conspicuous parts in war. When the House was discussing the question of the limitation of the naval power of Russia by restricting her to so many line-of-battle ships and frigates, it had not occurred to any one that Russia might, under these circumstances, create a fleet of small vessels of the gunboat class, which would be sufficient to enable her to carry out her daring projects. His only fear was on account of the mortar vessels we had sent out, each of which, he imagined, would require a larger vessel to attend on her. It must be remembered that the Russian force of gunboats at Cronstadt was fully equal to our own, and therefore the admirals in the Baltic must be on their guard against any surprises which might be attempted by vessels of that class. Another subject which inspired him with some anxiety was the Russian squadron in the Pacific. The House was aware that last year we had failed in reaching a portion of that squadron, and he believed that now there were in the Pacific, under Russian colours, six ships and one steamer. These vessels had all kept together, and it was not impossible that, evading our Pacific squadrons, they might some day appear in the Channel, or even make a descent upon the town which he (Sir G. Pechell) represented, and, after doing as much damage as possible, take refuge in the Scheldt. He thought it right to express these views, but felt bound at the same time to state his belief that the Admiralty had done its duty in the present war, and the hon. and gallant Member for Gloucester (Admiral Berkeley) especially had merited for his services in manning the navy, the honours with which his Sovereign had recently distinguished him.

CAPTAIN SCOBELL

said, that as they were called upon to vote the large sum of 1,141,168l. for the purposes of the navy, he considered that it was a fitting opportunity to make a few observations upon the conduct of the war as respected the employment of the navy. They were engaged in a great contest, in conjunction with an ally who could bring a much larger number of troops into the field than this country, but our success depended mainly upon possessing command of the sea. The most important question, therefore was, whether they had the right ships in the right places. In the Baltic we had sixty-one English vessels, and in the Black Sea seventy-three, besides the French and Turkish fleets, while the fleet of Russia in the Black Sea had been very considerably reduced in number. The great preponderance of naval power, therefore, was upon the side of the allies. The navigation of the Baltic, as he could speak from his own experience, was full of danger, especially in the autumn, and what was wanted there was a number of small vessels of war, capable, from their light draught, of moving about in places where it would be dangerous for large ships to venture. The course, however, which, had been taken was to send thither some of the largest and most magnificent line-of-battle ships in the world. In this respect, therefore, they would seem to have gone helter-skelter into the war. Floating batteries had not been sent out, although they might have proved formidable if they could have been got into proper positions, because there was some doubt whether they would float or not. An instance of what might be done by vessels of light draught had been afforded by the recent operations in the Sea of Azoff; but, although those operations had been so successful, they had not been seconded by attacks upon the forts at the mouth of the Danube, or upon Odessa or Perekop, commercial ports of great importance, where there were probably large stores of grain. Nothing, indeed, had been done upon any part of that coast, though the results would probably have justified the attempt, and have proved equally, if not more advantageous than the operations in the Sea of Azoff. In the course of the present war reference had been made more than once to Lord Dundonald's plan. He was not going to dwell upon that subject, but he would take the opportunity of saying that he had known that noble Lord when in the service, and, so far from being a rash man, he was one of the coolest officers—while he possessed what was termed dash—that he had known. During the operations of the last war he had never moved but with consummate judgment, had conducted himself with great bravery, and had accomplished the services required of him with less loss than almost any other officer. The Government ought not to be scrupulous as to the means offered them of conducting the operations of the war successfully, and Lord Dundonald had stated that the adoption of his plan would save life, and that the operations of the attacking party might be conducted with the most perfect safety. A distinguished officer, high in the service, had expressed his opinion that the plan of Lord Dundonald, if adopted, could not fail of success. He wished particularly to call the attention of the Committee to the essential services performed in the Sea of Azoff, by the Nancy raft, which was composed of a few spars fastened together, having guns mounted upon it, and which from its light draught had been able to reach places which were accessible to no ship of war. He had received a letter from a gallant Officer suggesting the employment in the Baltic of a number of such rafts, mounted with guns, about 100 of which could be constructed for the sum expended on the construction of a large gunboat. They could be prepared within three weeks of the present time, whereas gunboats, unless nearly completed, could not perform any essential service during the present season. They would be difficult either to sink or burn, nor could they be easily hit. Such a description of floating battery could obtain access to any place on the coast which it was determined to attack, and from its perfectly horizontal fire the balls would not ricochet. Such a plan seemed highly deserving of consideration. He was very glad to observe that some of the transports were at length coming home, because he thought that it was necessary, even if they came home empty, that they should be constantly working backwards and forwards with something like the regularity of the packet service. For some time we had been giving as much as 50s. per ton per month for the use of those transports, and he believed that in another year we should have paid about as much as would have bought the whole of them. In conclusion, he would beg to urge the advisability of giving sailors a bounty, which would be the only effectual means of securing really good men. He gave great credit to the senior Naval Lord of the Admiralty, because he had done much, and the greater portion of it well.

MR. LINDSAY

said, he was glad to hear that it was intended to continue the construction of gunboats; he should very much like to have a pledge from the Government that they would cease to spend more money in the building of enormous vessels, which were nearly useless in modern warfare. He wished to know what had been the cost to the country of the floating batteries, when it might be expected that those batteries would proceed to sea, and whether it was really and seriously supposed by the Admiralty that they would be effective for the purpose for which they had been devised? He wished to inquire also, perceiving the large items which were set down in the subsequent Vote for the steam factory and the purchase of house and premises at Constantinople, whether it was intended to have a permanent establishment there?

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he did not intend to make any comment upon the proposed Vote, because the country was in such a position that it must place necessarily very great reliance upon the Board of Admiralty. The navy had never disappointed the country, and the people naturally looked up to it for the accomplishment of important measures. He hoped, therefore, that some scheme was now in embryo which would redound to the honour and credit of that important arm of the service. He would point out, at the same time, that there was a strong feeling throughout the country in favour of testing the plan of Lord Dundonald.

ADMIRAL BERKELEY

said, he must beg to thank his hon. and gallant Friends the Member for Bath (Captain Scobell), and the hon. and gallant Member for Brighton (Sir G. Pechell), for the compliment which they had paid him, which was extremely gratifying from brother officers; and he could assure the hon. Member below the gangway (Mr. Lindsay) that if upon any former occasion he had been betrayed into warmth of expression, the hon. Member must attribute it to himself for having accused him (Admiral Berkeley) of the grossest incapacity. As regarded the building of large ships, he could only say that, unless they had been built, gunboats could not have penetrated into seas containing large fleets of the enemy; and he might also mention that those vessels which had done such good service in the Sea of Azoff had been built by the direction of the right hon. Baronet the late First Lord of the Admiralty.

Vote agreed to, as was also

(47.) 3,00 l. Wages to Artificers, &c., in Her Majesty's Establishments Abroad.

(48.) 1,063,655 l. Naval Stores, &c., for the Building and Repair of Ships, &c.

SIR GEORGE TYLER

said, he wished to know if the right hon. Gentleman at the head of the Admiralty considered the floating batteries which had been constructed to be efficient for the purpose for which they had been built, because if they were so, they might, he thought, be sent to places where they would prove of greater utility than they were at present?

ADMIRAL WALCOTT

said, he would also like to know what had been the cost of those batteries?

SIR CHARLES WOOD

said, that the cost had been about 50,000 l. a piece. As regarded their efficiency, that question was not so easy to answer. He could only say that the project of constructing them had originated with the French Government, and also that, as regarded their power of resistance to shot, the experiments which had been tried had given a satisfactory result. He had no doubt that in shoal water they would be found to answer perfectly well, but whether they would do so in deep water was a question which he was unable to decide.

MR. OTWAY

said, he thought that some assurance ought to be given by the Government as to the class of vessels which they intended to construct. A very large ship, the Marlborough, had that day been launched, or rather an attempt to launch her had been made, and, in his opinion, if the labour which had been employed upon that ship had been employed upon vessels of a different description, that labour would have been much better bestowed.

Vote agreed to.

(49.) 61,503 l. New Works Improvements and Repairs in the Yards, &c.

SIR CHARLES WOOD

said, that the object of purchasing the premises at Constantinople was to save the public money, and also to centralise the naval establishments in that part of the world, which were at present scattered. At present the country was at the expense of hiring buildings, and if the purchase of those buildings were effected, they could, it was estimated, be sold without loss when they were no longer required.

MR. STAFFORD

said, he thought that there would have been a saving of expense if those premises had been purchased at an earlier period. He hoped that among them a coaling place was included.

In answer to Sir WILLIAM JOLLIFFE.

SIR CHARLES WOOD

said, that there was no intention to have a permanent dockyard or naval establishment at Constantinople, although so long as our ships were employed in the Black Sea it was, of course, necessary to provide on the spot the means of repairing them.

MR. LINDSAY

said, he should be glad if the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty would afford them any information relative to the attempt to launch the Marlborough that day which had been stated to have been unsuccessful, and, if so, whether that vessel had sustained any considerable damage? He would also be glad to know if it was not the intention of the Government to employ their artificers and the funds at their command upon vessels more adapted to the requirements of the war?

SIR CHARLES WOOD

said, it was true that the Marlborough, after having got part of the way into the sea, had stopped short and could be moved no further. He could not account for what had occurred, but since he had been in the House a telegraphic despatch had been received stating that the tide had reached its lowest point, and that the vessel did not appear to have been injured or to have strained herself in the slightest degree. Upon the other point alluded to by the hon. Gentleman, they must remember that they ought not to confine their view wholly to the demand for small vessels. It was indispensably necessary to have ships of a size which would enable them to cope with those possessed by the enemy. Such ships as the Twelve Apostles could not be dealt with except by ships of equal size, and there must be a reserve force of large ships to meet a possible attack by the enemy, while the other operations of war were executed by those smaller vessels.

Mr. OTWAY

said, that on reference to the Navy List it would be seen that we had five line-of-battle ships to one possessed by Russia, and the latter were all sailing vessels, while we had something like twenty-seven steam men-of-war. Now, at the moment when a particular class of vessel was necessary to carry on the war the right hon. Gentleman put the artificers of the dockyard on the construction of large vessels not adapted for the purpose required.

Vote agreed to.

(50.) 2,000l. Medicines and Medical Stores.

MR. STAFFORD

said, he wished to ask whether there was any truth in the report that the Government were about to establish a civil naval hospital somewhere in the Bosphorus? He should be glad to see some such statistics of the hospital at Therapia as had been furnished to the House relative to the hospital on the other side of the Bosphorus. The position of the hospital at Therapia had been, and was still, he believed, very unsatisfactory; but it would be well if some returns could be furnished giving the proportion of deaths to cures there, with any other information that could be given.

SIR CHARLES WOOD

said, he would inquire whether any such statistical accounts as those desired by the hon. Gentleman could be produced. He had not the least objection to furnish any such accounts.

Vote agreed to; as was also

(51.) 1,000l., Miscellaneous Services.

(52.) 1,584,803l., Transport Service.

SIR CHARLES WOOD

said, the Vote new before the Committee was certainly one of a very large amount, but the reason of the increase was mainly to be found in the additional services they had been called upon to perform. Since the passing of the last Estimates the Government had, under various arrangements with our allies, undertaken to convey troops, horses, and stores to an extent far beyond what was then contemplated. The Committee was aware that a treaty had been entered into with Sardinia, by which we had engaged to convey the Sardinian troops to the Black Sea, and to provide a passage for such reinforcements as were required. That service had been satisfactorily completed, and the communications had been kept up. In like manner they had received from their ally the Emperor of the French a proposal which was fair and reasonable enough. It was said by the French Government— We are a military nation; we have men whom we are willing to send to the Crimea. You, on the other hand, are a great naval nation, and if we send troops, horses, and stores, we ask your assistance to convey them. That was a most liberal offer, and one to which Her Majesty's Government at once acceded. As soon as the demand was made they conveyed in about a fortnight 10,000 French troops to the Crimea, and they had since been aiding our allies to a large extent, they having also done a great deal for themselves in that way. The Government had, moreover, supplied the means of moving upwards of 40,000 of the Turkish army from Varna to Eupatoria. On a former occasion he had stated that something like 2,500 horses had been so conveyed, but this was far below the mark, for he had since received an official document from which it appeared that the actual number of horses transported was 11,000 and of that large number only one was lost in the transit. He mentioned that fact because it was most creditable to the officers on the spot who had been charged with the embarkation and the landing. Since that time numerous transports had been engaged in the conveyance of the Turkish Contingent, and the other day the French Government, being desirous to send a considerable reinforcement to their army in the Crimea, Her Majesty's Government were enabled to announce to them that all the transport vessels they required would be ready at the time they desired. In his opinion it would be the worst economy in the world not to have always in readiness ample means for the conveyance of horses, guns, stores, and men to the seat of war. The total number of men removed in transports since the beginning of the war was very much larger than hon. Members would suppose. Since the commencement of the war there had been removed from one place to another 246,000 English, French, Sardinian, and Turkish troops, and 32,000 horses, besides guns and stores. It had been found necessary in the course of the present year to reconstitute the Transport Board, and though some confusion had been caused in the first instance by the transference of the duties of one department to another in the middle of the operations of the war, he was glad to state that the business of the Transport Board was now conducted with much greater regularity and order. The arrangements which had been made by the Government bid fair to reduce to a considerable extent the expense of the transport service. According to the reports which had been received, there had not been that unity of control at the seat of war that there ought to have been; but his noble Friend the Secretary of State for the War Department had now sent out an Admiral to Balaklava who would have the whole of the transport service placed under his control. He believed himself that the first step in the way of improving the transport service was to place it under the control of one supreme authority, and he had been confirmed in that opinion by the reports of Sir John M'Neill, and of other gentlemen who had recently left the Crimea.

MR. H. BROWN

said, he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the reckless manner in which the public money was expended in that particular branch of the service. Some time ago a complaint was made that a large steamship had been loaded by three different departments, acting in no concert whatever, and that when she was in the Thames she had to be surveyed in order to decide whether she was seaworthy, and fit to proceed to sea. That vessel was the Candia, and it appeared from the Government returns that since the 26th of December she had cost the State no less than 25,000 l. But the transport service would always continue to be a source of great expense and disappointment to the country unless a different principle were introduced into the mode in which it was conducted. The real root of the evil was that we paid for time instead of for service, whereas the French acted on a system entirely different, and had consequently their transport service performed in a manner much superior. If such a system were adopted, we should find that goods were delivered at their proper destinations in time for the purposes for which they were wanted, and without any confusion between Balaklava and Constantinople. The French transports were taken up in the same manner as our emigration vessels, for the service to be performed, and they, besides, offered a bounty to the captain as well as the owner for making the passage in a certain number of days. The right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty boasted that 246,000 men had been conveyed to the Crimea, but had he taken the trouble to ascertain the cost per man of transporting that number of troops a distance of 3,000 miles? He (Mr. Brown) believed that the money voted by Parliament for the transport service would have taken the same number of men, together with stores and ammunition, to Australia and back again twice, according to the scale laid down by the Emigration Commissioners. Thus there was nothing to boast of in the manner in which the transport service had been conducted. On the contrary, a great want of arrangement and management had been displayed, and it was seldom known at the right time when a ship would be required, and when her cargo would be placed on board. Some short time ago a vessel sailed from Liverpool with three officers, seventeen men, and some officers' horses belonging to a regiment which had been shipped in other vessels, and the total cost of transporting them to the Crimea amounted to no less a sum than 5,456l. That was only one among numerous instances in which gross mismanagement had been displayed. He acknowledged that the officer at the head of the service stood pre-eminently high in the public service, but, however good a man he might be, it was impossible for him to make a bad system work well. For his own part, he would rather have a bad man with a good system than a bad system with a good man. He could assure the right hon. Baronet that great discontent existed in the country with regard to the management of the transport service. The right hon. Baronet at the head of the Admiralty had stated, at an early period of the Session, that the complaints which were made against that service were unfounded, and asked hon. Members to mention particular cases of mismanagement, when the hon. Member for Linlithgowshire (Mr. Dundas) stated that some of the heavy siege artillery which had been sent out to Balaklava were then in Portsmouth harbour, having been brought back in the transport in which it had been shipped. They had heard of a vessel having been sent to Newcastle to take on board cylinders which were intended to blow up the obstructions at the mouth of the harbour of Sebastopol, but the right hon. Baronet had not told the Committee that those cylinders were never landed, but that the ship in which they were embarked had been employed for two or three months in the conveyance of troops with the cylinders in her hold. It had been stated that the Prince was lost in consequence of her cables having been run out in a gale without being clinched, but the First Naval Lord of the Admiralty said that, though the cables of that ship were not clinched, they were lashed. It had, however, been stated by the officer in charge of the port of Balaklava, that the Prince went into Balaklava Roads with only one anchor and one cable on board, and the harbour-master of the port had remonstrated on three several occasions against the ship's being allowed to remain in the Roads under such circumstances. He found that, in another place, Lord Panmure, the Secretary at War, had stated, in answer to a taunt from Lord Ellenborough, that he was happy to inform the noble Lord that, under the new arrangements, the War Department was working most satisfactorily, and was in weekly communication with the Admiralty. Why, persons possessing any commercial experience would laugh at the idea of a weekly communication taking place between those two great public departments. He regretted that, so far as he was aware, no improvement whatever was perceptible in the management of the transport service.

ADMIRAL BERKELEY

said, he wished to say that he had never made any statement, either in that House or elsewhere, as to the number of cables and anchors on board the Prince at the time she was lost. He had merely stated, on the authority of the affidavits of the riggers who had been employed, that the cables were lashed. He regretted that the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. Brown) had not made the speech he had just delivered to the Sebastopol Committee, who might then, perhaps, have come to a different conclusion with reference to the case of the Prince.

MR. H. BROWN

said, he had not been invited to give evidence before the Sebastopol Committee, and therefore he did not attend that Committee.

MR. LINDSAY

said, it was his belief that very little improvement had taken place in the transport department. He was convinced that one Gentleman, responsible to the Admiralty, would manage the business better than any Board. Until that was the case they could never fix the responsibility. Looking at the number of men and horses conveyed, the work appeared enormous; but a large number of those troops were conveyed, not from this country, but from Varna or Malta, or some short distance. The actual work done was very far short of what ought to have been done for the money. The evidence before the Sebastopol Committee showed that valuable steam-ships had been kept for months lying idle as store-ships at Balaklava. He was glad to find that merchant ships were to be employed, in preference to war-ships, as transports. He was convinced that the number now employed was amply sufficient for anything that could be required. Our Government ought, like the French, to look at the capacity of the vessels, also to pay a premium to the captains for voyages performed under a certain time. He hoped that before the Session closed an amended Return would be laid before the House of the services actually performed by the transports; for the Return already given was full of errors.

MR. STAFFORD

said, that having paid great attention to the state of the transport service in the East, he had come to the conclusion that it was impossible to arrive at a correct knowledge of the real amount of service performed, and losses sustained by mismanagement and delay, for the simple reason that those most concerned in it and who best knew the facts, were precisely the persons who had the greatest interest in concealing them. He thought the Committee ought to be informed how far the Transport Board was independent of the Admiralty, and what was the precise nature of the relations which existed between those departments. It would be recollected that in June, 1854, the Duke of Newcastle stated that the department in which the greatest failures had occurred was the transport service, and the noble Duke expressed his opinion before the Sebastopol Committee, that the transport system would not work satisfactorily in such a contest as that in which the country was now engaged unless it were placed under the control of the Minister of War. He wished to know whether the First Lord of the Admiralty concurred in the opinion of the noble Duke, or whether he still thought that the transport service could be properly conducted under the superintendence of the Board of Admiralty? With regard to the statement of the hon. Member for Tewkesbury (Mr. H. Brown) that there was a weekly communication between the War Department and the Board of Admiralty, he thought there must be some mistake, for he was satisfied that at least a daily communication took place between such important departments of the public service. He wished also to ask whether the First Lord of the Admiralty could give the Committee any information with regard to the arrangements made for the transport of our sick soldiers from the shores of the Black Sea? Perhaps the right hon. Baronet could state how many ships were engaged in that service, and whether they were fitted in such a manner as to insure the comfort of the unfortunate persons for whose passage they were employed. Certainly the condition of the wounded and invalided soldiers who had recently arrived here from the Crimea was not such as to justify him in saying that the transport system was not capable of improvement.

SIR CHARLES WOOD

said, he had not the least hesitation in telling the hon. Gentleman that he did not agree in the opinion of the Duke of Newcastle that the transport service ought to be placed under the control of the Secretary for War. The late First Lord of the Admiralty (Sir J. Graham) expressed an opinion in which he (Sir C. Wood) entirely concurred, that the management of the naval transport service would be conducted much more satisfactorily under the control of the Board of Admiralty than by the Secretary for War. He might observe that the communication between the War Department and the Board of Admiralty was not weekly, or even daily, but almost hourly. With regard to the hospital ships, to which the hon. Member for North Northamptonshire (Mr. Stafford) had referred, he might state that there were now four vessels employed in conveying the sick and wounded from the Crimea to Scutari, and taking back convalescents, and he believed they were properly fitted, and perfectly efficient for the service in which they were engaged. He regretted to hear the statement of the hon. Gentleman with regard to the condition of the invalids who had recently arrived from the Black Sea, but he could only say that no complaints had reached him on the subject.

SIR GEORGE TYLER

said, that from what he had seen of the present Transport Board, and the mode in which it performed its business, he had no hesitation in saying that Captain Milne, who was at the head of that Board, was most admirably adapted for the discharge of his duties. He thought there was now no reason to complain of the mode in which the business of the Transport Board was conducted. He believed that there were two ships in that service in which the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lindsay) was interested, and he should like to ask if he would be satisfied with a lower rate of freight than was given for other vessels.

MR. LINDSAY

said, he believed the superintendent of the department to be a most efficient officer. Make him the one responsible party, and the others under him, and he should be satisfied. The hon. Gentleman had made allusion to two ships that he (Mr. Lindsay) once was interested in. He believed that those two ships were the lowest in the list.

Vote agreed to; as was also

(53.) 755,239l., Packet Service.

House resumed.