§ MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he wished to call attention to the fact that the Supplementary Estimates for the Commissariat for the ensuing year amounted to 2,500,000l. The department had been recently transferred from the Treasury to the War Department, and he begged to ask his right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer if papers would be submitted to the House to enable them to judge of the system under which the money would be expended? In voting so immense a sum, the House ought to see, as far as they were able, how it was to be appropriated. He was not without apprehension, the Treasury having been deprived of the control of the expenditure of that sum, that the money might be expended without any proper system being devised for its application. He was aware of the impropriety of pushing the system of routine too far, but, on the other hand, he could not allow a lax system of expenditure in a distant country to prevail without having due control over it. It would be satisfactory to him to hear from his right hon. Friend that his attention had been directed to such an important subject, and he hoped that if his right hon. Friend could not give them the information he sought for, documents would be laid on the table to show them the nature of the system 1559 on which they were proceeding. If that could not be done before they came to vote the sum in Committee of Supply, it would be a satisfaction to him to hear from one so competent to express an opinion as his right hon. Friend that he had been consulted, and was satisfied that the expenditure would be made in a manner that would afford the public every security that there would be no lavish expenditure, and that the accounts would be conducted in a proper manner.
MR. STAFFORDsaid, he was glad the right hon. Gentleman had called the attention of the Government to so important a subject. As long ago as the 18th of May last, Lord Ellenborough, in another place, made precisely the same statement, and uttered the same complaint which the right hon. Gentleman had now made; the noble Lord deplored that Parliament and the country were without information as to the manner in which the Commissariat was to be administered, and said he apprehended that at present no one stood between the Minister of War and the chief clerk of the Commissariat Department. He (Mr. Stafford) deeply regretted that Parliament had arrived so near the termination of the Session without having had a statement laid before it with regard to the organisation of the War Department. More than a year since the Secretaryship for the Colonies was separated from the Secretaryship for War, or rather a fourth Secretary of State was appointed; and from that period to the present all they knew of the organisation of that important department was derived from the statements of the Duke of Newcastle and Mr. Sidney Herbert before the Sebastopol Committee, both of whom declared that they knew nothing of the arrangements, and that during their tenure of office they had gone on, notwithstanding the warning of the noble Lord the Member for London (Lord J. Russell) without organising any plan; in fact, although Parliament had voted the money for carrying on, the war with unsparing liberality, they were still in utter ignorance with regard to the arrangements that had been made for conducting that department. He hoped the right hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would say when the Government would be able to give an ample and explicit statement of the changes which had been effected in the War Department, especially with regard to the financial position of the Secretary for the War Department.
COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that some time ago he had taken the liberty to ask for information as to the re-organisation of the War Department; and it appeared that there was a department called the "Army and Civil Department;" and anybody could see that such an arrangement would not work. He felt assured that he expressed the feeling of all men in his profession when he said that there was an utter disorganisation in the military departments; there had been a transfer of almost all the military departments, where military knowledge was necessary to civilians; and he predicted that from such a system there must come failure. They suffered under the great disadvantage, that they never could get a satisfactory answer to anything in the military way; and in the organisation, they had no definition of what was intended to be military and what civil. He saw many Gentlemen opposite who talked of Administrative Reform, and if they were sincere, they would pay attention to those Estimates and the re-organisation of the military departments, and force the matter on the attention of the Government.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, it was his wish, and he believed generally the wish of the Government, to give the fullest information and satisfaction to the House with respect to the changes recently made in the War Department. One of those changes consisted, as his right hon. Friend (Mr. Labouchcre) had correctly stated, in transferring the Commissariat from the Treasury to the office of the Secretary for War. He was necessarily himself personally ignorant of the expenses of the Commissariat, the whole duty of the Treasury now being that the funds should be sufficient to meet the demands of the different military departments. The demands of the Admiralty and War Departments and the whole of their detailed expenditure were under the control of those departments. The Estimates of the anticipated expenditure were sent to the Treasury for approbation before they were submitted to Parliament, but the expenditure was wholly conducted on the responsibility of the War Department, and it was merely the duty of the Treasury to see that the funds were in existence to defray the drafts on the Exchequer. With regard to what his right hon. Friend had observed as to the extent of the Commissariat expenditure, he would merely make one remark, that undoubtedly 1561 that expenditure was large; but the House should bear in mind that up to a very recent date, and even at the present time, the great jealousy of the public and of the House, was that all the wants of the army should be adequately supplied, even though those wants should be supplied at a great pecuniary sacrifice. No pains or expenses had been spared to supply all the wants of the army, both with respect to the supply of food and by making provision for the attendance of the sick on the field, and also in the hospitals that were remote from the scene of contest. The expenses were incurred at a distance, and were necessarily controlled with less efficiency than they could be in a time of peace. It must be anticipated that those expenses would be somewhat large; that was always the case in former wars, and was the necessary condition on which war was carried on. He had every reason to believe that all securities had been taken for controlling the expenditure of the Commissariat; but the transition from the control of one department to that of another must create some imperfection of arrangement, which it would take time and experience to remedy. The attention of skilled and experienced persons was now constantly directed to the subject; and if any information existed in a written form, it should be laid before the House. He was not, however, aware at that moment that there was any Report of the Commissariat, except of a nature that would give no information on the subject to which his right hon. Friend had referred.
SIR FRANCIS BARINGsaid, with regard to the general constitution of the War Office, that was a subject which he conceived had better be deferred till next Session; but with respect to the transfer of the Commissariat to the War Department, he had some observations to make on that particular subject. It was his fortune to call attention to the subject at an early period of the Session. He then felt that the arrangement which had been made was deficient and would require further consideration. He considered that the Treasury, in transferring the Commissariat to the War Department, had transferred more than they ought to have done. The Commissariat did not relate to war expenses only, but to other expenses which had nothing whatever to do with the war The Government, therefore, ought to have drawn a distinction between the two, and ought to have kept that portion of the 1562 Commissariat which had no relation to the war within their own hands. The War Department would have quite enough to do without superintending an expenditure which had no relation with the war. In that respect, therefore, the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought to revise the Minute by which that transfer of duty was made. In his mind that Minute betrayed a good deal of haste, and, no doubt, was considered the easiest way of getting rid of an onerous department. But let the right hon. Gentleman take a committee of persons accustomed to accounts. It was a mistake to suppose that it was a mere army arrangement. There ought to be some one employed who was capable of acting as a real check in keeping those accounts. No doubt there had been considerable difficulty in making the arrangements. They were unavoidable in the case of a change from a state of peace to a state of war. He was afraid, however, that they would get into still greater difficulties unless they instituted an inquiry into the matter. He would suggest that persons connected with the Commissariat and the army, should be employed to make arrangements, confining the department entirely to the Commissariat for the army, and he had no doubt that before next year they would get the department into the very best order. If something of that nature should not be done, his right hon. Friend was little aware of the difficulties in which he would get involved.
§ MR. HENLEYsaid, the House and the country must be greatly obliged to the right hon. Member for Taunton (Mr. Labouchere) for calling attention to such an important matter. They were about to have before them large Supplementary Estimates, and most of the discussion had turned upon the desirableness of having a sufficient check upon the expenditure of the money; but there was another point of still more importance that had not been referred to, which was, that unless there was a good and sufficient system in operation for supplying the wants of the army they would be expending enormous sums of money uselessly, and leave the wants of the army unsupplied. If a good system were adopted there would be no difficulty in keeping the accounts in a manner easily to be understood; whereas, if they proceeded hand over head, so that no man could foresee what might be needed or knew what was to be done, they would attempt to apply the system of checking 1563 vain. It would be an incumbrance rather than a help in the supply of necessaries to the army, and would very probably do considerable mischief. The statement o the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer was not of a very consoling character. So far as the War Department was concerned, it appeared that the Estimates were submitted to the Treasury before they came down to the House but how far the sanction of those Estimates by a department that was not versed in the details could be regarded as of any value, he (Mr. Henley) could not so easily comprehend. It did not betoken a very accurate view of things when large Supplementary Estimates were required. We were not more at war now than we were four months ago, and he really thought that the whole amount might have been taken then. It was, however, impossible to discuss those matters at that period of the Session; and he confessed he was not without some apprehension, seeing that such large sums were to be voted without at the same time having any knowledge of the manner in which they were to be applied.
§ MR. MACARTNEYsaid, that since the issue of the Supplementary Estimates for the Commissariat some anxiety had been evinced to know whether the Chancellor of the Exchequer was in such a position as not to be under the necessity of asking the House, in Committee of Ways and Means, to provide for the additional 5,000,000l. It would be satisfactory to ascertain whether the right hon. Gentleman proposed, in Committee of Ways and Means, to provide for that amount, or whether he conceived that he had a sufficient margin from the Ways and Means voted for the financial year to enable the Government to carry on the war, until the next meeting of Parliament.
THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUERsaid, he thought that upon the whole it was not desirable to anticipate the discussion which would come on when the Supplementary Estimates were before the House, and when ample explanation would be given by the Gentlemen representing the several departments with regard to the details. As to the question of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Macartney), if it should please the House to agree to the Supplementary Estimates, it would then become his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) duty to show that there was sufficient Ways and Means to meet them, for he 1564 need hardly say that it was perfectly useless for the House to vote Supplies unless they also provided the means of, defraying the expenses. It was, therefore, a matter of absolute necessity that the Government should show that means were provided for meeting the Votes that might be agreed to. Without going into details he might add that, in submitting his annual financial statement to the House he allowed a margin of rather more than 3,500,000l. That margin, would not, however, be sufficient to cover the entire Supplementary Estimates; but at the time of proposing a vote of credit to cover the remaining portion of the Ways and Means he would state in what manner he proposed that the remnant of the Supplementary Estimates should be covered.
§ Motion agreed to.
§ House in Committee.