HC Deb 23 July 1855 vol 139 cc1316-24
LORD SEYMOUR

said, he had to call attention to a promise made by the Government and broken, and to a Vote of money taken under what he might call false pretences. On the 2nd of March, 1854, when the Ordnance Survey for Scotland came before the House, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Dovor (Mr. Rich) asked the then Chancellor of the Exchequer (Mr. Gladstone) upon what scale the Ordnance Survey for Scotland was to be made, and who was to pay for it? The right hon. Gentleman said that a scale of one inch to the mile would be sufficient for all national purposes, and that anything beyond that would not answer any national purpose; and that a twenty-five-inch scale to the mile had been proposed, which would be a great advantage to the landed proprietors of Scotland, but it would cost millions before it was completed; the House was, therefore, promised that the matter should not be decided upon by the Treasury, but that the House should have an opportunity of deciding upon the question; that experiments would be made of the twenty-five-inch scale in certain districts, and that the landowners should contribute to the cost if the twenty-five-inch scale were adopted. On the 15th of July a Treasury Minute was agreed to, directing that the counties of Ayrshire and Dumfriesshire should be laid down upon a scale of twenty-five inches to the mile, in order to try the experiment. It had since been decided that the same scale should ho applied to the survey of populous, cultivated, and mineral districts of Scotland; and that the superintendent should exercise his discretion as to the plans that should be laid down on that scale. He complained of this decision as unfair to the House, since it had been promised that the House should know the result of the survey of the two counties, and should then decide upon what scale the survey should be made. By this latter Treasury Minute an expenditure of a million of money had been taken away from the House and given to the superintendent of the survey. It appeared from Sir C. Trevelyan's Report that, in the opinion of the best authorities, a one-inch scale would be sufficient for the wild moorland districts of Scotland; and Mr. Stephenson, Mr. Locke, and Mr. Brunel had given it as their opinion that a six-inch scale would be of very little use, being too large for a map and too small for a survey. But the Treasury Minute, dated May 18, in the present year, decided that the Highlands and the other thinly populated districts should be drawn upon a scale of six inches to the mile. He wanted to know who was to pay for all this? The House had seen the job coming long ago, and had tried to prevent it, but the power of the House had been defied and its intentions defeated by the Treasury. The Chancellor of the Exchequer promised that, at any rate, there was to be some local contribution towards the expense, but what did Sir C. Trevelyan say upon this subject?— If the survey is conducted in the main according to one general plan, the financial result is the same whether each district pays separately for its own map or the whole country pays the entire expense in its corporate capacity. They would, therefore, be asked to vote that all England and Ireland should pay for the benefit of the landed proprietors of Scotland. Another curious memorandum, upon which the Treasury had founded their minute, was drawn up by Lord Elcho, a great landed proprietor, and this was one of the reasons he gave for his opinion— Lord Tweeddale says he cannot conceive a greater convenience than for owners of fixed pro- perty to be able to take copies of such portions of the survey map on the large scale as they may require. He (Lord Seymour) was of the same opinion; no doubt it would be a great convenience to the country gentlemen of Devonshire and Dorsetshire to have maps of those counties on the large scale; but why should the public be asked to pay for them? These memoranda and papers ought to have been laid before the House early in the year, but the whole matter had been kept secret. This was a very pretty case for the administrative reformers. The Treasury had made themselves responsible for the twenty-five-inch scale, the House had not sanctioned it, and the whole expense ought to be borne by the Treasury. That would be a more practical measure of administrative reform than any which had yet been suggested. He should, no doubt, be told that large systems of survey were in operation in Austria, Bavaria, Sweden, and other foreign countries; but that had nothing to do with the question. The real question was whether this survey would serve a national purpose? The House had agreed to a one-inch scale; then, upon pressure, they sanctioned a six-inch scale; but if they allowed this twenty-five-inch scale they would authorise an expenditure to which he could see no end; for the whole country would require a survey of the same kind. The Government had given the House no opportunity of considering this question, but had taken money under a promise which they had violated. They had cheated the House into the large scale for the benefit of the landed proprietors of Scotland, and he hoped the House would now oblige them to make a declaration that they would put an end as soon as possible to this useless expenditure.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

thought that in the present case, as in others which it had been said required administrative reform, the facts would be found not to be so strong as the statement of the noble Lord might have led the House to imagine, and that the House would, after a careful consideration of the papers on this subject, come to the conclusion that the course which had been taken by the Government was the only proper one which they could have adopted. He considered that the great expense of Ordnance surveys had arisen from the constant alteration, without sufficient information, of the scale on which they were to be made. The Ordnance survey of Scotland was commenced before 1828 on the one-inch scale. It was then stopped for twenty years, in order that the Irish survey made on the six-inch scale might be completed. In 1848 the survey of Scotland was resumed on the six-inch scale, so that all the outlay which had taken place on the survey on the one-inch scale was completely lost to the country In 1851 the Committee which was appointed to examine into this matter came to a determination in favour of the one-inch scale, to which it was then thought necessary to return. In 1852 strong representations were made to Lord Derby's Government of the injustice of surveying Scotland on the one-inch scale, and the six-inch scale was again returned to. In 1853 a further movement was made, and it was thought that a survey on a larger scale than six inches would, in all probability, be the most beneficial, and, in the end, most worth the money expended on it. Lieutenant Colonel Dawson, in a letter to Sir C. Trevelyan, stated that the real desideratum was an original or parent map of the cultivated and improvable lands of the country on a scale much larger than six inches to a mile, from which reduced maps might be inexpensively prepared on the six-inch, or one-inch, or any other scale for general or special purposes. Experiments were then made in order to ascertain on what scale the survey should be carried out. In the speech made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer in 1854, to which the noble Lord referred, he (the Lord Advocate) could not find that any such pledge as was mentioned was given on that occasion; but that, on the contrary, the right hon. Member for Oxford University intimated that experiments were being carried on in certain districts of which the House was duly warned, and with reference to which the Treasury Minute which had been referred to was afterwards passed. A good deal of discussion afterwards took place on the subject, and the pledge given by the Government amounted in substance to this—that no further works beyond those in progress should be proceeded with until Parliament had had an opportunity of considering this question. But at this time it turned out that, in addition to Ayrshire and Dumfriesshire, four other counties had also been partially surveyed on the twenty-five-inch scale. The work was to a great extent suspended, but it was found that it could not be entirely stopped without entailing heavy loss on the public. That was not the time for entering into the question whether the one-inch, the six-inch, or the twenty-five-inch scale was the preferable one to adopt; but certainly, the Government having issued circulars to persons of scientific knowledge and experience in all parts of the country, and whose opinions were placed beyond suspicion, an immense preponderance of opinion was elicited in favour of the large scale, which was applicable to sanitary, conveyancing, and other purposes of a public nature. Moreover, from a twenty-five-inch scale a six-inch scale might easily be reduced. No doubt a one-inch map would be very serviceable; but if they were to have a six-inch survey, the question was whether the difference in point of expense between that and a twenty-five-inch scale would not render the adoption of the latter more advisable. The cost of a six-inch survey would amount to 817,000l., while that of the twenty-five-inch scale (with a six-inch one for the Highland districts), would only come to l00,000l. more than that sum. The landowners might, indeed, derive some advantage from the adoption of the twenty-five-inch scale; but that fact would render the work none the less one of national importance and utility; and therefore, before the House came to a final decision on the subject, it would do well to examine the papers relating to it which were now on its table.

MR. HENLEY

said, that the Lord Advocate had very adroitly avoided the real question before them—namely, whether the Government had acted fairly by that House in this matter—and had confined himself entirely to the discussion of what he had disclaimed all intention of entering into—namely, which of the different scales should be adopted for Scotland. They had been told that the great weight of authority was in favour of the larger scale; but what they complained of was, that they had had no opportunity of discussing the very papers which they were now told contained so much information. Who were the great authorities of whom the learned Lord spoke? For all they knew to the contrary, they might be the great landed proprietors or municipal bodies who wished to have a twenty-five-inch survey for sanitary and other purposes at the expense of other people. The Government had acted in this matter on a principle analogous to that of hanging a man first and trying him afterwards. When the Estimates of the preceding year were brought forward they were told that this question was a grave one, inasmuch as if Scotland were surveyed on the twenty-five-inch scale England would very likely demand the same thing; and he had certainly understood that Parliament was to have a fair opportunity of expressing an opinion on the matter before the work was proceeded with. [Mr. GLADSTONE: Hear, hear!] If they allowed this to go on they might be told, at the close of another year, that certain things were in progress which could not be stopped without involving a sacrifice, and so, step by step, the whole country might, as it were, by stealth, be completed upon the twenty-five-inch scale, with the six-inch one for the bogs and wastes. The Government had not been exonerated from the charge of issuing, after the Vote had been taken, a minute inconsistent with the assurance they had held out; and such a want of candour would justify distrust on the part of the House in future.

MR. ELLICE

said, the question at issue was between the noble Lord at the head of the Government and the House. His noble Friend had declared that the money voted should not be applied to the twenty-five-inch scale, but to the one-inch scale, until the House had had an opportunity of deciding for itself; but the agent of the Treasury had entirely subverted that assurance of his noble Friend. The simplest method of settling the matter was this: He (Mr. Ellice) would recommend a suspension of all operations for the present—the sappers engaged in the survey could find ample employment elsewhere—and a reference of the matter to a Committee of the House, who should examine not only great landed proprietors who had sent in representations in favour of the larger scale, but scientific men and the independent Members of this House who represented the interests of the tax-payers. Let his noble Friend take that course, and he had no doubt that with a settlement so arrived at the House would be perfectly content.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

denied that he had given the pledge that had been represented.

MR. ELLICE

Why, it is given in the Treasury papers.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

wished to put himself right with the House as to the promise which he had made when this subject was last under discussion, and which had been somewhat misrepresented by the noble Lord the Member for Totness. On that occasion it was stated that an experiment of the twenty-five-inch scale was being tried in two counties of Scotland, and on the noble Lord the Member for Totness objecting to this, he (Viscount Palmerston) had entered into an agreement that no more money should be spent on the survey on the large scale than would be necessary to complete the experiment then going on, so that Parliament should have an opportunity of reconsidering the subject next Session. Upon inquiry, however, he had found that the twenty-five-inch survey was being made not only in the two counties, but in several counties, and to a greater extent than had been represented to the House; and, although his engagement had applied to the completion of the experiment, whatever its extent might be, he had thought it better that the matter should be brought under the consideration of the House, not next Session, but this Session, in the form of a Treasury Minute, in which were stated the intentions and wishes of the Government and the course which they thought best to be adopted. This Treasury Minute was accordingly drawn up and laid before the House in May, when it was competent for anybody to have raised a discussion, and to have taken the sense of the House on the subject. Whatever course was ultimately adopted with regard to this survey ought to be well considered and finally determined on, because, if the survey were to be carried on for some time on the one-inch scale, and it was afterwards decided that the six-inch or the twenty-five-inch scale would be better, all the labour and expense which the one-inch survey had cost would be thrown away. For a general map no doubt the one-inch scale was the most useful; but there were many social purposes for which a twenty-five-inch survey was absolutely necessary, and, as a one-inch map might easily be made from the twenty-five-inch survey, while a twenty-five-inch map could not be extended from a one-inch survey, the Treasury Minute suggested that the best plan would be to complete a survey of all the cultivated lands on the twenty-five-inch scale, from which a one-inch map might be reduced. This map would be for publication, but the original survey on the twenty-five-inch scale would be kept in manuscript, and every one who wished for a map, or portion of a map, on the large scale would be allowed to take copies of it by a process now well known, without engraving, on the payment of a certain sum, which would go towards the gradual repayment of the additional expenditure caused by the adoption of the twenty-five-inch scale. For the uncultivated districts the six-inch scale would be quite sufficient. That, in his opinion, was the best arrangement which could be made, though, at the same time, the matter was a very fitting one to be discussed by a Committee of the House of Commons next Session. It was said that one effect of suddenly stopping the progress of the survey on the large scale would be to disband a number of workmen now employed on it, who could not easily be collected together again, and therefore, while the matter ought to be left as much as possible to the discretion of the Committee no step ought now to be taken which would involve the additional expenditure of reorganising a staff of workmen next year, supposing that the larger scale should then be decided on.

COLONEL DUNNE

said, the Government under which he held office decided in favour of a six-inch scale, but subsequently a scale of twenty-five inches and an absurd fraction was proposed. He, however, had found that the six-inch scale was amply sufficient in Ireland, and could not see what advantage there could be in a twenty-five-inch scale, except, perhaps, in towns, He thought the Government ought not to sanction a survey upon so large a scale, which must be very expensive, and could not be useful.

LORD ELCHO

said, his first connection with the subject arose from being Chairman of a Committee to consider the question of the Scotch survey, which reported in favour of a one-inch scale. A Treasury Minute was issued somewhat in accordance with that Report. The people of Scotland, however, appeared not to be satisfied with that decision, and many petitions were presented praying for a six-inch scale. When Lord Aberdeen's Government came into office the Treasury had to consider the course it should pursue, and it appeared to them that the six-inch scale would not be worth the money it would cost, but that they ought to endeavour to find a scale large enough to be useful. With that view circulars were sent to the landowners, engineers, men of science, and practical men, whose replies were, he believed, thirty-two in favour of a six-inch scale, and upwards of ninety in favour of a large scale from twenty to twenty-four inches. Subsequently it was suggested that, as the tendencies of the age were towards decimals, it would be better to adopt a plan which at any future time, when a decimal system of weights and measures might be introduced, would be found to be in accordance with that system. Another circular was then sent, and the opinions of the vast majority of practical men were in favour of a decimal system. Such was the state of things when Lord Aberdeen left office. He (Lord Elcho) rejoiced at the decision which Her Majesty's Government had come to, and he hoped they would persevere with the twenty-five-inch scale, from which maps upon a smaller scale might easily be made by reduction. He, however, regretted that the Government had promised to grant a Committee, because he could not see what more a Committee could do than the Treasury had already done to ascertain the opinions of the public upon this subject. The only effect of the Committee would be to bring a question already involved in considerable confusion into still greater confusion, and to add considerable expense and great delay. He thought it would be very desirable, if possible, to take the opinion of the House upon the subject during the present Session.

MR. WILLIAMS

thought the country was indebted to the noble Lord who had exposed this most gross and monstrous job, intended exclusively for the benefit of the Scotch landlords. It was monstrous or the Scotch landlords to ask the House to consent to a twenty-five-inch scale entirely for their benefit, at an enormous expense, to be borne by the people of this country. The noble Lord (Lord Elcho) said that engineers were in favour of the twenty-five-inch scale; and there was no doubt of that, for it would give them employment till the day of judgment.

The House adjourned at Two o'clock.