HC Deb 02 July 1855 vol 139 cc373-83

Order for Committee read.

House in Committee.

MR. HADFIELD

said, he begged to move "That the Bill, having been officially declared by the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate of Scotland to be exclusively a Presbyterian Bill, and not, as it stated in the title thereof, 'A Bill to provide for the Education of the People of Scotland,' and that such declaration having been approved by the Committee of Council on Education; and considering that all denominations of Christians in Scotland, except Presbyterians, and others would be virtually excluded from partaking of the benefits intended to be provided by such Bill, though they would be liable to be assessed under the same; and also, considering that the several bodies of Presbyterians are disagreed among themselves as to the objects intended to be promoted by the said Bill, or mode of accomplishing the same, and the restrictions and conditions thereof, while some of them are actively and entirely opposed to the said Bill; and considering, further, the numerous petitions that have recently been presented against it, it is resolved that the Chairman do report progress." The Bill was now completely altered from its original shape, and instead of its being a measure to provide for the education of the whole people of Scotland, it was only intended to benefit one section—the Presbyterians. Neither the Episcopalians nor the Roman Catholics were to be at all benefited by the Bill; and of the Presbyterians, two out of the five sects into which that body was divided were inimical to the measure. It was originally said there was to be no test for schoolmasters, but the Lord Advocate had an Amendment on the paper which would institute one of the worst tests ever devised, by which a man was required to subscribe not merely to the Thirty-nine Articles, but to a catechism of some 107 Articles. He therefore contended that the Bill was now so changed in spirit and principle, that, looking at the advanced period of the Session, and the improbability of the Bill being passed into law, the best course would be to get rid of it altogether.

MR. W. WILLIAMS

said, he wished to ask the noble Lord at the head of the Government how it was proposed to deal with the money which had been voted for education in England and Wales? According to the calculation of the hon. Member for Berwickshire (Mr. F. Scott), a sum of 200,000l. would be required to put this system in force in Scotland, so that for England and Wales, where education was in a far worse state than in Scotland, there would only remain for purposes of education a sum of 181,000l. as the whole sum voted for education in Great Britain, was 381,000l. He was far from being desirous of checking the progress of education in Scotland, but he thought that it was the duty of English Members to insist upon there being an equality throughout the country, and taking the difference of the population of Scotland from that of England and Wales, if a sum of 200,000l. were expended in Scotland, no less than 1,000,000l. ought to be expended in England and Wales.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, that the Vote which would be taken that year for the purpose of education would be applied in the same manner as former Votes, under the direction of the Committee of Privy Council. The hon. Member for Lambeth was, however, mistaken in supposing that the Bill, if passed, would involve so large an increase in the allowance for education in Scotland as he had stated. It was impossible to state precisely, until the surveys were made, what would be the total amount required, but he (Lord Palmerston) thought it would not exceed 80,000l. With respect to the Motion of the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Hadfield), he would submit to the Committee that this measure was one of great importance, and one which ought to be discussed in its details and merits; and he thought that the time of the Committee would be unprofitably employed if hon. Members were called upon to discuss the question whether or no they should proceed with the Bill, rather than in considering its merits. He trusted that the Committee would proceed in a practical manner, and apply itself to the transaction of the real business for which it had met.

MR. CUMMING BRUCE

said, that the Motion of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hadfield) had been made without his concurrence, or that of those Scotch Members who had taken the same view of the Bill as himself. He had opposed the Bill at the second reading, but had been defeated; and, as he feared that by the use of an official instrument in the person of the right hon. Member for Wells (Mr. Hayter), any attempt of his to obtain a modification of the measure would be again defeated, he should, if the hon. Gentleman divided the Committee, vote in the same lobby with him.

SIR GEORGE GREY

said, he trusted that the Committee would at once proceed to discuss the details of the measure, as those hon. Gentlemen who objected to its principle would have an opportunity of opposing it on the third reading.

MR. GRANVILLE VERNON

said, he hoped that the noble Lord would take steps for the appointment of a Minister in that House to represent the Committee of Council, for, in his opinion, the expenditure of the large sums of money which were annually voted for educational purposes ought to be brought more directly before the House.

MR. F. SCOTT

said, that if the right hon. and learned Lord Advocate would give him the data upon which he founded his calculation as to the expense which would be involved by the Bill, he would compare it with his own calculation and endeavour to arrive at a right conclusion, but at present he saw no reason to alter the opinion which he, upon calculation, had formed, that the expense would amount to 200,000l.

MR. HADFIELD

said, that, since the general feeling of the Committee appeared to be against it, he would not persist in his Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clauses 14 to 18 agreed to.

Clause 19 (Ratepayers in parishes to consider proposal to found Public Schools).

MR. BLACKBURN

said, he wished to inquire why the clause should only take cognisance of the existence of burgh and parochial schools, when it was known that there were in many parishes other endowed schools? He thought the present clause was inconsistent with the 9th clause.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, the object of the Bill was to establish complete uniformity in the schools to be provided by the measure, irrespective of the voluntary schools. His object was to extend the parochial schools and make them adequate to the wants of the people of Scotland. They had a national system of education in Scotland, but there were great deficiencies in it.

SIR ARCHIBALD CAMPBELL

said, he would not say that the object of the Bill was to take the education of the people out of the hands of those who now had the control of it, and to transfer it into the hands of the Government, but he certainly considered that such would be the effect of the measure.

MR. STIRLING

said, he fully concurred in the objection taken by the hon. Member for Stirlingshire (Mr. Blackburn), and, with a view to obviate it, he would beg to move, that after the word "parochial," the word "and" should be struck out; and that after the word "burgh," the words "and other" should be inserted, so that the clause would run thus— Whenever the Inspector had ascertained that the means of education afforded by the parochial, burgh, and other schools were inadequate, he should report the same to the Board.

MR. BLACKBURN

said, he must advert to the injustice of taxing all districts alike, without reference to their requirements. He would point out the case of Heriot's Hospital, in Edinburgh, from the revenues of which schools had been established in various districts. Under the clause proposed Edinburgh would be assessed for schools as though such institutions had never existed there.

MR. FERGUS

said, he thought, if a statistical return could be properly made, the amount of educational destitution would be found much greater than was believed. He believed, too, that the Bill—which he admitted was, as far as it went, a good measure—would fail to reach the educational wants of the country. Such means as were now adopted, relying upon the parents' will alone, would never bring education to the children in those great towns where it was most needed, and he could not help thinking that a compulsory system must sooner or later be established.

MR. MIALL

said, there might be some difference of opinion whether the voluntary principle alone should be relied upon for the promotion of education, but there could be none that that principle should not be cast aside where it already existed. The Bill proposed to ignore all existing schools not dependent on rates or national grants, and the practical consequence would be, that no schools on the voluntary principle would be allowed to exist in Scotland; and this was called a liberal measure, supported by Liberal Members.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, that by the 9th clause it would be the duty of the inspectors to furnish to the Secretary of State detailed reports of the educational condition of each district, so that the wants of each burgh or parish in Scotland would be accurately known. He agreed with the hon. Member for Fifeshire (Mr. Fergus) that the Bill would not in all respects reach the existing amount of educational destitution, and it might be a question hereafter whether some kind of compulsory system ought not to be adopted. But, before they rendered it compulsory upon parents to send their children to school, there must be schools provided for them in every district. If, by the clause now under consideration, all private schools were to be recognised it would render the Bill completely nugatory. He therefore entreated the Committee not to destroy the integrity of the clause, which was, indeed, the very hinge of the Bill.

SIR ARCHIBALD CAMPBELL

said, he considered the provision calculated to suppress voluntary efforts to promote education.

MR. CUMMING BRUCE

said, he hoped his hon. Friend would not be content with the alteration agreed to be made by the right hon. and learned Lord, and would press his Amendment.

MR. BLACKBURN

said, he must condemn the attempt to set up an educational "platform," establishing a forced uniformity throughout the country, with schoolmasters' salaries at 50l. a year all round, whatever might be the varying circumstances of different districts. He also maintained that a compulsory attendance, if deemed advisable, might be combined with the retention of voluntary schools.

MR. APSLEY PELLATT

said, he thought the object intended was to extinguish all voluntary schools in Scotland, which amounted to nearly 3,000 in number. He should, therefore, divide against the clause.

MR. VANSITTART

said, as an English Member, he must protest against the compulsory spirit of the provision, than which nothing could be more worthy of the Inquisition. It was also directly antagonistic to the system under which the Privy Council distributed its educational grants.

MR. F. SCOTT

said, he would suggest that the inspectors under the Bill should be required simply to ascertain whether the means of education in their respective districts were inadequate, without limiting their inquiry to the education afforded merely, "by the parochial and burgh schools."

MR. CUMMING BRUCE

said, he could not avoid making a remark upon the absence of English Members from the present discussion. There never was a more fatal error than for those hon. Gentlemen to suppose that the Bill would not affect their own country. If ever there was a case in which the rule of Proximus ardet Ucalegon applied, certainly it was the present. A purely secular system of education could not be introduced into Scotland—as would be the ultimate effect of the Bill—without exposing England to the danger of a similar measure. Having an excellent combined religious and secular system now in operation in Scotland, the representatives of that country ought to declare Nolumus Scotiœ leges mutari.

MR. SMOLLETT

said, there were several efficient voluntary schools in his district, and he thought the ratepayers would feel it very hard on them if they were compelled to pay for the erection and support of another school.

MR. VANSITTART

said, he considered the Bill entirely opposed to the principle which had, up to this time, done so much for education in the country—that of allowing every sect to instruct their own children. The concession which had been made was entirely in the spirit of the solemn league and covenant.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, that after the wishes expressed by hon. Members in various quarters he was willing to adopt the suggestion made by the hon. Member for Perthshire (Mr. Stirling).

MR. BLACKBURN

said, he would now move, as an Amendment, to omit the words, "That it shall be in the power of such meeting, by the votes of a majority then present, to resolve that such additional school shall be established," objecting to the power thus given to any party which could obtain a majority to establish additional schools.

Question put, "That the word proposed to be left out stand part of the clause."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 40; Noes 73: Majority 33.

Clause, as amended, agreed to; as were also Clauses 20 to 25 inclusive.

Clause 26 (Public Schoolmasters shall produce Certificates and pass Examination.)

MR. E. ELLICE

said, he wished to propose a proviso to the effect, that no schoolmaster should hold the office of inspector of the poor after the passing of the Bill, except such as might now hold the office and were approved by the General Board.

MR. W. LOCKHART

said, he should oppose the Amendment on the ground that there were many small parishes in Scotland in which it would be impossible to find a fit person to act as inspector of the poor, unless the parochial schoolmasters were permitted to take office.

MR. CRAUFURD

said, he should oppose the Amendment, on the ground that it would fetter the discretion of school committees, who were the best judges of the propriety of allowing schoolmasters to engage in other occupations.

MR. FERGUS

said, he very much regretted that the Amendment did not go further, for schoolmasters in Scotland were frequently employed not merely as inspectors of the poor, but as sessions clerks, land surveyors, and in other capacities. He knew one parish in Fifeshire, where the schoolmaster was employed as inspector of the poor, and he believed that during the last five years the highest number of children who had attended the school at the same time had been ten or twelve.

MR. BLACKBURN

said, he thought that in many parishes the schoolmaster was the person best qualified to act as inspector of the poor, and that he could discharge the duties of such an office without neglecting his duties as schoolmaster.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, that although in many cases, great inconvenience had undoubtedly resulted from schoolmasters having undertaken duties entirely unconnected with the management of their schools, yet in the Highland districts, it might frequently be impossible to find any persons except the schoolmasters who were qualified to act as inspectors. He would therefore suggest that it should be left, not to the school committees, but to the General Board, to permit schoolmasters, in special cases, where they thought it necessary, to act as inspectors of the poor.

MR. E. ELLICE

said, he would withdraw his Amendment, and leave the matter in the hands of the Government.

Amendment withdrawn; clause agreed to.

Clause 27 (Religious instruction to be given in Parochial and Public Schools.)

MR. SMOLLETT

said, he proposed to prefix to the clause the following words— The religious instruction to be given in all Parochial and Public Schools under this Act shall be in accordance with that heretofore in use in the Parochial Schools of Scotland; but

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, that at present there was in every school in Scotland, with few exceptions, an hour set apart for religions instruction, during which children belonging to other denominations were not bound to attend. He thought it desirable to put that in the Bill, to show that the old practice in Scotland was to be continued. At the same time he did not like to legislate more than was necessary on religious subjects, and thought the proposed words unnecessary, their substance being set forth in the preamble of the Bill.

MR. BLACKBURN

said, that in none of the clauses was it enacted that the religious instruction referred to in the preamble should be given.

MR. F. SCOTT

said, he should support the proviso, believing that the people of Scotland wished for some such declaration.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 38; Noes 93: Majority 55.

SIR JAMES FERGUSSON

said, he wished to move a proviso to the clause, to the effect that in cases of non-attendance on religious instruction, the parents or guardians of the children objecting should produce a certificate from the ministers of the religious denominations to which they belonged, that they received religious instruction. He thought it of the greatest importance that care should be taken that the children should receive religious instruction of some kind. That was the first time a Bill had been introduced by the Government separating religious from secular instruction.

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he must deny the assertion of the hon. Member for Ayrshire: the Bill only carried out the principles of the present established schools in Scotland. He maintained that the promoters of the Bill were as anxious to further religion as any of its opponents. But if the certificate suggested were required, the result would be that when it was not possible to furnish it, the children in question would be debarred from the benefit of the secular instruction furnished in the schools. He could not assent to the Amendment.

SIR JAMES FERGUSSON

said, he did not wish to deprive any child of secular education; he only wanted an enactment that religious instruction should be given in some way, and he proposed to secure it by requiring a certificate from the minister.

MR. F. SCOTT

said, the professions of the right hon. and learned Lord as to care for religious instruction were not carried out in the Bill. If the right hon. and learned Lord was sincere in those professions, it was unaccountable that he should always object to Amendments calculated to promote the object. The principle of the Bill was the separation of secular from religious education. Hitherto religious instruction had pervaded the whole of the education. Now it was to be given only at certain specified hours. The right hon. and learned Lord refused to introduce any guarantee for religious instruction.

MR. BARROW

said, he was anxious for religious instruction, for he believed that secular instruction alone did not deserve the name of education. The right hon. and learned Lord declared that the Bill would not interfere with religious instruction; but if containing no guarantee for such instruction, it would surely produce the impression that secular instruction alone might be sufficient.

SIR JAMES FERGUSSON

said, he would withdraw his Amendment.

On the Motion that the clause stand part of the Bill,

MR. ALEXANDER HASTIE

said, he should move that the clause be omitted altogether. He agreed that no sound education could be given that was not based on religion; but he had so much faith in his countrymen that he was quite sure, without an enactment of the kind, a sound religious education would be given by the parents.

MR. HADFIELD

said, he should support the Motion for the omission of the clause, and he did so because it was wrong and an injustice to tax people in support of an institution in which they were not par- takers, and to which they had a moral and religions objection. If this clause were retained it would raise a religious war in Scotland akin to that which had prevailed from time to time in England on the subject of church-rates.

MR. MIALL

said, he objected to the clause, on the ground that it was framed so as to exclude from the benefit of the Bill one-third of the Presbyterians of Scotland.

LORD WILLIAM GRAHAM

said, the clause was very unpopular in Scotland, and he would vote for its omission.

Question put.

The Committee divided:—Ayes 87; Noes 79: Majority 8.

Clause agreed to; as were also Clauses 28 to 37 inclusive.

Clause 38 (The Board may aid Industrial and Reformatory Schools).

THE LORD ADVOCATE

said, he wished to propose the addition of the following proviso— Provided always, that it shall not be necessary for any industrial or Reformatory School in Scotland, in order to obtain the sanction of the Secretary of State, under an Act passed in the seventeenth and eighteenth year of the reign of Her present Majesty, intituled 'An Act to render Reformatory and Industrial Schools in Scotland more available for the benefit of vagrant children,' to provide accommodation within the premises of such school for the lodging and residence of such vagrant children. Provided always, that the rules of such school are otherwise satisfactory as provided by the said Act; and so much of the said Act as restricts the power of the sheriff to transmit vagrant children to such school or schools within his jurisdiction is hereby repealed.

MR. BLACKBURN

said, he objected to the proposed Amendment, on the ground of its introducing matter not originally contemplated by the Bill, namely, the reformation of criminal offenders.

Motion made and Question put, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 125; Noes 51: Majority 74.

Clause agreed to; as were also Clauses 39 to 48 inclusive.

House resumed.

Bill reported.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill, as amended, be considered on Thursday."

Amendment proposed, to leave out the words "as amended, be considered," and insert the words "be recommitted," instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words, 'as amended, be considered' stand part of the Question.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Bill, as amended, to be considered on Thursday, and to be printed.