HC Deb 06 March 1854 vol 131 cc441-3

Order for Second Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read a second time."

MR. HADFIELD

said, this Bill proposed to continue the Church Commissioners for ten years longer. The Commission began in 1818; 1,500,000l. was voted for church building, and the Commission had existed thirty-six years. He wished to know for what earthly purpose these Commissioners could be wanted for ten years more? He begged to move that the Bill be read a second time that day six months.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day six months."

MR. WALPOLE

said, he wished to call the attention of the Government to the confused and utterly unintelligible condition of these Acts. He hoped that, before Government asked the House to continue them for ten years, they would make an attempt to consolidate them into one Act. Without assenting to the proposition of the hon. Member (Mr. Hadfield) that the Bill should be read a second time that day six months, he trusted that the Government would seriously consider the propriety of consolidating the existing Acts.

MR. SIDNEY HERBERT

said, he must admit that these Acts were in a very confused and unsatisfactory state. Attempts to consolidate them had frequently been made, and submitted to successive Home Secretaries, but so difficult was the task, that it had never been accomplished. In the meanwhile it was necessary to reenact these Acts, as the Commissioners had a good deal of money to distribute that had been left in their hands.

MR. HENLEY

said, the statement just made rendered the case irresistible that the Bill should be postponed. The right hon. Gentleman said the task of consolidation had been so difficult that consecutive Secretaries of State had given it up in despair. If that was so, the proper course would be to suspend the continuance of the Commission till the labour of consolidation could be effected.

MR. BOUVERIE

said, that these Acts were in a state of almost inextricable con- fusion was not to be denied. So much was this the case that it was all but impossible to say what the law was, and the best thing that could be done would be to consolidate all the Acts into one Statute. He would therefore suggest that the Bill should be postponed till that day week or that day fortnight.

MR. FITZROY

said, he thought there was very little chance indeed of these Acts being consolidated in a fortnight. There were no fewer than eighteen Acts of Parliament on this subject, and, though different attempts had been made to consolidate them, they had all failed. The Secretary to the Commission would not undertake the attempt at consolidation for any money that could be offered him. In the meantime the duties of the Commission had become of a permanent nature, especially with respect to the division of parishes, the assignment of new districts and the like, and, therefore, it was important that the Acts should be perpetuated for a certain time. Not less than four-fifths of their income were derived from individual subscriptions, and these subscriptions had been very useful in the completion and erection of churches. The number of churches built amounted to 538, while there were in the course of erection 95, making a total of 633; and there was a balance of 20,000l. in their hands. He hoped, therefore, the House would consent to read the Bill a second time.

MR. MUNTZ

said, he thought the Bill should be postponed for the Session, to enable the Government to bring in a measure of consolidation.

MR. VERNON SMITH

said, every succeeding speech in behalf of the Bill made it appear the more necessary not to read it a second time. The hon. Under Secretary for the Home Department told them that so inextricable was the confusion of these Bills that they could not be consolidated; and yet, in these circumstances, he asked them to reappoint this Commission for ten years. Let him propose some shorter time—say twelve months—and endeavour in the meantime to consolidate the law.

MR. DISRAELI

I would recommend that the law officers he permitted to try their hands at this Bill; and, in the meantime, that we should have the continuance for one year. I should like to see what they could make of it; and this seems to me to be the course which, upon the whole, we had better follow.

MR. FITZROY

said, he would postpone the Bill till Friday, when the noble Lord the Home Secretary would be present to state his views if the hon. Member for Sheffield (Mr. Hadfield) would withdraw his Motion.

MR. WILSON PATTEN

thought the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Disraeli) a very reasonable one—namely, that the Bill should be passed for one year only.

Question put—"That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

The House divided:—Ayes 70; Noes 59: Majority 11.

Main question put, and agreed to.

Mr. WALPOLE

said, he would press on the Government, before the Bill was read a second time, to consider the question of consolidation. The feeling on his side of the House was that the Bill should be continued for a short time to allow of that consolidation taking place.

MR. FITZROY

said, the practical course would be to allow the Bill to be read a second time now, and to insert the words "one year" in Committee.

Bill read 2°.