§ Order for Committee read.
§ House in Committee.
§ Clauses 1 to 3 agreed to.
§ Clause 4 (Expense of Storehouse, how to be provided for).
§ MR. ROBERT PALMERsaid, he wished to insert at the beginning of the clause the words "one half of," which would have the effect of transferring half the expense of the new establishments from the county rates to the Consolidated Fund. The question was one of very great importance, and, as he saw the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department in his place, he would beg to ask him whether, after the discussion which had taken place on the subject, he would not give his consent to this Amendment. Memorials had been agreed to at quarter sessions, in which the memorialists stated that they had always considered that the charges in question ought not to be defrayed out of the county rates, but, inasmuch as the militia was a national force for the general protection of Her Majesty's subjects, they were of opinion that it should be borne by the nation at large. He admitted that for many years the counties had been called on to provide for the expense occasioned by the militia force, but he thought, when that expense was so much extended by the introduction of a new system, they ought not to be compelled by Act of Parliament to bear the burden of the new charge. It was unnecessary for him to raise any of the points in detail which already bad occupied the attention of the House, but he hoped the noble Lord would give a satisfactory answer, and support a Motion for a national expenditure for the buildings required for the militia, which force, in consequence of the war, had become of national importance—being moved about to different parts of the country to garrison 897 those places which had previously been occupied by the regular troops; and he therefore considered it unfair to tax particular localities for these necessary establishments. At the same time, looking to the fact that the charge for militia storehouses, &c., had been hitherto defrayed by the counties, he did not think it wise to ask for more than was proposed by this Amendment.
Amendment proposed, in page 3, line 20, to insert, at the beginning of the Clause, the words "one half of."
§ MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, he thought the proposal of his hon. Friend was founded on misapprehension with respect to the principle upon which the law now imposed on counties the expense necessary for this purpose, and he altogether denied that there had been any change in that principle whatever. [Mr. PALMER: The extent of its application. I did not say principle.] Well, then, with respect to the extent of its application, the Committee must be aware that when improvements took place in any departments of the State they were frequently attended by increased expense; that had been the case with many charges on the Consolidated Fund, and if improvements had been made in the militia establishment which led to increased expense, it was no reason whatever for throwing the burden on the Consolidated Fund. It was a constitutional principle that they should impose local burdens for the support of an establishment which was locally valuable. Another view of the case had been taken, and it was contended that they had no right to make any additional charge on counties unless the counties received something in exchange. But in this case he thought counties had greatly gained by recent changes. Previously to the passing of the Act of 1852, the expense on counties for militia barracks was enormous, and by another change in the law the 6l. bounty on volunteers was defrayed out of the Consolidated Fund instead of out of the poor rates, which charge was of a still more local character. Then, again, if sufficient men could not be produced by ballot, there was an annual charge of 10l. per man paid out of the county rates, but in consequence of the success of the volunteer principle the necessity for the ballot had altogether ceased, and, indeed, was, practically speaking, abolished. During the last war, the cost of substitutes ranged from 28l. to 30l., and there had been paid 898 on that account, in the West Riding of Yorkshire, during that period, the large sum of 75,000l. by means of a tax to which every man was liable, and which fell with very different degrees of severity on men with various incomes. From the circumstance, therefore, of the ballot falling into desuetude, the bounty for volunteers being paid out of the Consolidated Fund, and other causes, it was impossible to calculate how large a saving had been effected to counties; he therefore thought that all those circumstances ought to be taken into consideration. Then, again, in many counties storehouses were completed, and in others they were in progress; if this principle were adopted, there would be the greatest difficulty in computing the exact charges to be defrayed out of the county rates. It would be very unjust to those counties which had built their storehouses —perhaps, in some cases, with borrowed money—if they were to be left to get rid of their debt as they could, while Government relieved those counties which had been unwilling or laggard in the matter from half the necessary expense. Great facilities had been given to counties for raising money for the purpose of extending the storehouses: and as this was a constitutional and local force, was it right to transfer the charge of the establishments to a great degree on the Consolidated Fund at the moment they bad introduced a system of relief for counties? He thought not; and hoped the House of Commons would continue the existing system, which had stood the test of many years, and by means of which the expense of the storehouses in question had been defrayed out of the county rates. For these reasons, therefore, he opposed the Amendment.
§ MR. HENLEYsaid, he suspected that the ballot had not been adopted, not with the object of relieving persons interested in land, but because he believed the Government considered that one volunteer was worth a dozen pressed men. The counties were still liable to the ballot if men did not volunteer; and if that was resorted to and failed to raise the requisite force, the counties would still be liable to pay the fine imposed upon them by law if they failed to levy the appointed force. It could not, therefore, be said that they had been relieved from this charge. It was said that there was nothing new in the principle of imposing this charge upon the counties; and there was no doubt that the principle of "paying" was old enough; but the right hon. 899 Gentleman certainly proposed to extend its application to the counties very materially by this Bill. This charge was unquestionably originally imposed on the land; but it should not be forgotten that the relative value of landed and other property had very much changed since that time. Many charges had been removed from the land on this ground; and he thought they ought to follow these precedents with regard to the charge now in question. The militia was a national force, and its expense ought, therefore, to be borne by the country at large.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he considered that the arguments of his right hon. Friend (Mr. S. Herbert) were perfectly conclusive, and that they had not been shaken by the observations of the right hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley). The only reason that had been urged for the transfer of these charges from the public revenue to local taxation was, that some material change had been made which justified such a transfer, for, if things now remained in all respects as they were when the Militia Acts were originally passed, there could be no ground or pretence for requiring any alteration. Now, what was the change that had actually taken place? It was said, that during the last two years, more extensive accommodation had been demanded with regard to storehouses than had previously been required. He admitted this, but the demand had not involved any great increase of expense. If, however, the law had required that somewhat more extensive accommodation than previously existed should be provided, on the other hand the law had allowed the distribution of the charge for this accommodation over a long period of time, so that he believed in many cases the addition to the county rates would not exceed a halfpenny in the pound for the period during which the charge would apply. Now, he thought such an addition to the rate would be hardly perceptible. [Mr. HENLEY said, that it would form one-sixth part of the whole county rate.] Well, if that were so, he (Viscount Palmerston) did not think there was much cause to complain of the weight of the tax. It must be remembered, however, that the inhabitants of counties had been relieved, not only from the pecuniary burdens incidental to the ballot, but from the great personal inconvenience which they suffered from the ballot; for the arrangements connected with the ballot were not only attended with 900 expense, but with a great deal of personal trouble, which, in the case of the persons who were subjected to it, was equal to pecuniary loss. It was true that the ballot still remained part of the law, and he thought the abrogation of the ballot would be inexpedient, but he certainly could not conceive a case likely to happen in which it would be necessary to have recourse to the ballot. Voluntary service was, unquestionably, infinitely preferable to compulsory service, and the great increase of population, together with the admirable spirit which had been displayed by the people throughout the country with regard to the militia force, certainly justified the Government in considering that there could not be any necessity for having recourse to the ballot. It was said that the militia was a national force, but it was no more a national force now than it had been from its first institution. It had always been a force levied in each county locally, confined to such county for training and exercise during time of peace, but liable in time of war to be permanently embodied and marched anywhere for the general defence of the country. There were, however, circumstances connected with the militia which did very much localise the force and influence its general character. The officers of the militia were not appointed by the Crown, as was the case with respect to officers of the Army and Navy, but were selected by the lords lieutenant of counties, and consisted chiefly of gentlemen connected with the various counties. Therefore, when the militia was called a national force, it must not be forgotten that it had, in its very root, a clear connection with the counties to which the respective regiments belonged. Then he would ask the Committee to consider whether the county charges now remained in the same condition in which they were at the time when the 42 Geo. III. was passed? Had not the counties been relieved from many very important charges since that period, such, as expenses connected with gaols, with criminal prosecutions, with the maintenance of convicted prisoners, and with the salaries of schoolmasters and surgeons of poorhouses? A great number of charges of this nature had been taken off the counties, and transferred to the general revenue since the period when counties were first required to provide storehouses. When, therefore, because some trifling addition to the storehouses was proposed, with regard to the provision of rooms for half-a-dozen 901 sergeants and guard-rooms—which were, in fact, only what the law always virtually required—in order that the buildings might be sufficient and safe for the custody of arms, clothing, and stores—hon. Gentlemen proposed that this charge should at once be transferred from the county rate to the general revenue; they seemed to him entirely to forget the great relief which had of late years been afforded to counties by the removal of charges which when the law was first adopted were borne by the county rate. He, therefore, considered, viewing the subject as a whole, and looking to the fair balance between the counties and the public, that there was no sufficient and adequate ground for the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Berkshire.
§ SIR THOMAS ACLANDsaid, he should support the Amendment, upon the ground that it went to carry out the system first introduced by Sir Robert Peel, of charging one half the county expenditure upon the Consolidated Fund.
§ MR. YORKEsaid, he also would support the Amendment. The object they had in view in raising the militia was the defence of the nation, to which, indeed, all the stores belonged.
§ MR. J. WILSONsaid, it was important that the charge should be levied in such a manner as would be most economical, as, whether it was paid by the county rate or the Consolidated Fund, the charge would fall in a great measure on the counties. He could point to a return, showing that the consequence of transferring the charge of prosecutions from the county rate to the Consolidated Fund had been, that the charge had been doubled, and the same result might follow with regard to the militia if this Amendment were adopted. There might have been some reason for this Amendment before, when the counties alone were rated, but by this Bill corporate towns would also be rated, so that the whole fixed property of the country would be chargeable. There was a great outcry against centralisation, but he put it to the Committee, whether the adopting this Amendment was not a step towards centralisation.
§ MR. CRAUFURDsaid, he would refer the Committee to a speech of the noble Lord the Home Secretary, in which he said that what they wanted was a regular militia, and what they did not want was a local militia.
§ MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, a local militia was so called in contradistinction to a general militia, but the whole force was essentially local. If this Amendment were adopted, it would be for Government to consider whether they would go on with the Bill or not.
§ MR. BARROWsaid, the militia had ceased to be a local force, and in proof of this, the Committee must be aware that the Essex militia was stationed in London at that moment.
§ MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, perhaps hon. Gentlemen were not aware that there were great interests in this country besides the interests of the country gentlemen. He was one of those who had been sent into that House to support the general interest. When that House departed from a correct principle, the departure was always used as a reason for taking another step in the same direction.
Question put, "That those words be there inserted."
The Committee divided:—Ayes 85; Noes 60: Majority 25.
§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER, in reply to Mr. Henley, said, that the principle which had just been affirmed by the vote of the Committee was a very important one, and the Government would consider what course they would take on the subject hereafter.
§ COLONEL BLAIRsaid, that in many counties there were barracks now existing which had long been unoccupied, and he wished to know whether such buildings might not be used as storehouses under this Bill?
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he was not aware that there were any useless barracks in the country; but, if that were the case, and such barracks were handed over to the counties, of course the counties must pay for them.
Clause agreed to, as were also Clauses 5 to 26 inclusive.
Clause 27.
COLONEL NORTHmoved the insertion of the following words—
Officers of the regular Army or East India Company's service, or who have served five years in the regular Army, Marines, or East India Company's service, shall be admitted into the militia force without any qualifications being required.
§ MR. HENLEYsaid, that one main reason of the success which had attended the raising of the militia was the fact, that so many of the officers were connected with 903 the counties to which the several regiments belonged, and he hoped the Committee would pause, before it agreed to the Amendment.
§ VISCOUNT JOCELYNsaid, he did not object to having one or two military officers in a militia regiment, but, generally speaking, he thought the country gentlemen, after a little time, were not surpassed by any officer of the regulars; and most colonels commanding militia regiments would agree with him that it was desirable, as long as possible, to get the country gentlemen to officer that force.
COLONEL NORTHsaid, the appointment of those officers rested with the lords lieutenant of counties, and he feared that, in many instances, they might be disposed to give notice to quit, in case the regiments were ordered to be permanently embodied.
§ COLONEL SIBTHORPsaid, he considered it most desirable that the officers should be gentlemen connected with the county, wherever that object could be attained.
§ SIR JOHN TYRELLsaid, he thought the Committee should make up its mind as to the hands in which they would invest the power of selecting officers, because he knew that in some cases considerable difficulty had been experienced when gentlemen were anxious to join the militia. It was the opinion of the late Duke of Wellington, that this power should be placed in the colonels of militia, and not in the lords lieutenant of counties. It was all very well to talk of giving the militia a territorial position, but when he remembered what was the position which country gentlemen occupied in that House, if the noble Lord the President of the Council proposed to inflict the knout upon the agricultural interest generally, he should not be at all surprised. He was anxious, therefore, that the authority should be well defined.
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, there were two objects to be kept in view: first, to maintain and encourage the connection of the regiment with the county; and next, to maintain that infusion of military feeling which arose from having a proportion, at least, of officers who had been in the regular Army or Marines. The choice of officers rested, as he thought, very properly, with the lords lieutenant of counties; and he did not think it likely that a lord lieutenant, acting, as of course he 904 would do, in communication with the colonel of the regiment, would be disposed to set aside any young men of the county who were willing to serve and take commissions in a militia regiment. His first choice of candidates would certainly be from among the youth and gentry of the county. Still he knew, from looking at the returns, that there had been some difficulty in filling up the post of captain from particular circumstances, and also great inconvenience in getting subalterns, for, the pay being chiefly for the training period, young men of a certain condition did not like to incur the expense of equipments. He thought the clause of the hon. and gallant Colonel, if given effect to, would assist in getting for subalterns qualified persons, who might expect, if a vacancy occurred, and there were no very eligible candidate among gentlemen of the county, that they would get promoted to the captaincy. In many regiments there were one or two captains who had served in the line, and a very small infusion of military habits and experience ripened the rest of the regiment in a very rapid and extraordinary way. He would, therefore, agree to the Amendment.
§ MR. EVELYNsaid, he had great respect for lords lieutenant of counties; but the Committee should remember who they were, and that they received their appointments generally upon political considerations alone. The colonel, as the man who was responsible for the discipline and efficiency of the regiment, ought, he considered, to be vested with the power of selecting the officers; and the system now in operation of vesting that power in lords lieutenant of counties was an anomaly.
§ LORD HOTHAMsaid, he had lately observed in the Gazette the appointment of an individual, whose name be did not remember, as an "honorary colonel." Now, as that appointment was, he believed, a novel one, he begged to ask the noble Lord what circumstances had led to its creation, what duties attached to the office, and what authority it conferred?
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, when he first took this matter in hand, he was struck with the fact that considerable inconvenience frequently arose from the circumstance that regiments of the line were practically commanded by lieutenant colonels in quarters and in the field, whilst militia regiments were under the command of full colonels. The result was, that when 905 a militia regiment came into the quarters of a regiment of the line, the militia colonel took the command over the lieutenant colonel of the line; and with all deference to militia colonels in general, one would not suppose that they were, either from habits or experience, altogether the best people to take the command of the troops in a garrison town. On the other hand, he felt it to be of great importance to maintain the link between the regiments of militia and the landed gentry of the county, and that great advantage generally arose from having in command of a regiment of militia some landed proprietor, who, by his personal influence and connections, might assist in raising men for the regiment, and so connect it with the gentry and inhabitants of the county. It was, therefore, determined that, with regard to all future appointments, the regiments of militia should be commanded in the same manner as a regiment of local militia during the war, by a lieutenant colonel commandant, and not by a full colonel. And he had issued a circular to the lords lieutenant of counties to the effect, that if any existing colonel placed himself in regard to his regiment on the same footing on which a general officer of the Army stood in regard to the regiment of which he was the colonel, he should be at liberty to do so; that was to say, he should retain his rank and position as colonel, but no longer interfere with the internal arrangements of the regiment in quarters or in the field, whilst he would be the channel of communication between the lord lieutenant and the regiment in regard to appointments and all other questions, with the exception of those relating to military discipline in quarters and in the field. He also stated in the circular, that with regard to future appointments, if in any particular case the lord lieutenant thought the appointment of such an officer to a regiment when a vacancy occurred would be conducive to the good of the service, no objection would be raised to that appointment being made. This, then, was the position of the honorary colonel to whom the noble Lord referred. He was an officer who held the rank of colonel of a regiment, wore the uniform of a colonel, and stood in the same relation to his regiment that a general officer did to a regiment of the line of which he was the colonel.
§ LORD HOTHAMsaid, that while thanking the noble Viscount for his explanation, he thought that the efficiency of a militia- 906 regiment depended very much on the time it was kept together, and during the last war there were regiments of that description in a far higher state of discipline than regiments of the line in this country. He ventured to doubt whether, under the new arrangement, the system would work well, nor did he think country gentlemen would be willing to accept the office of honorary colonel to which no military duties attached. There was another point to which he begged to call the attention of the noble Lord. He wished to ask whether, when two militia regiments came together, one commanded by a country gentleman and the other by an officer who had served in the line, the officers would take precedence according to the date of their commissions in the militia regiment, or whether the officer who had served in the line would be at liberty to date his commission from that time?
§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTONsaid, he must disclaim the slightest intention of casting any reflection upon the militia regiments of the country, which were in the highest state of efficiency, as proved by the fact that the inspecting officers on some occasions had actually taken some of the militia officers to be old soldiers. With regard to the question of the noble Lord, he thought it better that militia officers should rank together in accordance with their commissions in the same service rather than that any difficulty should arise in relation to a commission they might have held in either service before.
Amendment agreed to; Clause, as amended, added to the Bill.
Clause 28 agreed to.
Clause 29 (Non-commissioned officers and drummers offending in certain cases, in which the commanding officer does not think it necessary to bring the offenders before courts martial, may be imprisoned for any period not exceeding seven days).
COLONEL NORTHsaid, he considered that the clause would produce a prejudicial effect upon the discipline of regiments by diminishing the influence of the non-commissioned officers. How was it possible that young soldiers especially, who had been subjected to punishment for breaches of military discipline, could entertain proper respect for non-commissioned officers who emerged from prison side by side with themselves? According to this clause, a serjeant major, who ranked next to a commissioned officer, might be put in solitary confinement or imprisoned with hard la- 907 bour. He begged to move that the words "non-commissioned officer" be omitted from the clause.
§ MR. SIDNEY HERBERTsaid, that under the Mutiny Act, although commanding officers might sentence to confinement for 168 hours private soldiers who had been guilty of certain breaches of military discipline, no such power existed with regard to non-commissioned officers; and as the dismissal from a militia regiment of non-commissioned officers who had previously served in the regular forces was really no punishment at all, inasmuch as they were almost sure to obtain service in some other militia regiment, this clause had been proposed with a view of meeting that difficulty. He was willing, however, to consent that the clause should not apply to non-commissioned officers, and to adopt the Amendment placed on the paper by the noble Member for North Northumberland (Lord Lovaine), which was in the following terms—
And if any person who shall have served in Her Majesty's forces, and shall afterwards have been enrolled as a non-commissioned officer on the permanent staff of the militia, shall be discharged from any regiment or corps for misconduct, the cause of his discharge shall be certified by the colonel or commandant of such regiment or corps on the back of the certificate of his discharge from Her Majesty's Army, and a copy of the same forwarded to the Adjutant General of Her Majesty's forces, the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and the Secretary at War.
§ COLONEL BLAIRsaid, the clause, in its present shape, had created a strong feeling of dissatisfaction among the non-commissioned officers in militia regiments, many of whom had served in the regular Army.
Clause, as amended, agreed to; remaining clauses agreed to.
House resumed.
Bill reported as amended.