§ Order for Committee read.
§ Motion made, and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."
§ MR. BRADYsaid, he would beg to suggest to the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Pakington), who had charge of this Bill, the propriety of deferring its further progress, because our present system of vaccination was conducted on a mistaken principle. He thought it was not right that the time of the House should be taken up in legislating upon a subject which was not yet understood, especially with the certainty that it would be necessary to legislate again upon it next year. It was quite impossible that this Bill could be 369 worked in its present form. So long as our vaccination system was administered under the Poor law Board, and as the persons who were brought in contact with it were thereby stamped with the mark of pauperism, it was utterly impossible that the object which the House had in view could be attained. It was impossible, by the means embodied in this Bill, to secure an adequate supply of good lymph. He felt sure that if our present system were continued, the ravages of small-pox would be materially extended. By the first clause of this Bill it was not to come into operation until February next. He would, therefore, suggest that they should not now proceed with this Bill, but that previously to next Session the subject should be inquired into, and he had no doubt that a good practical measure might then be introduced. Under these circumstances, he would move that the Bill should be committed that day three months.
Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "This House will, upon this day three months, resolve itself into the said Committee,"— instead thereof.
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, that the principle of this Bill had been affirmed in the last Session of Parliament, and this measure was merely introduced to correct two errors in the Act of last Session. One was, that a wrong number of days was prescribed, at the end of which the child was to be brought before the medical man for examination; and the other was, that in the Act of last Session no sufficient mode of recovering the penalties was enacted. There were also two or three clauses inserted by the request of the Registrar General. He could not, under the circumstances, assent to the postponement of the Bill.
Question, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to:—Main Question put, and agreed to. House in Committee.
Clause 1.
§ MR. HENLEYsaid, he objected to throwing the expense of the vaccination system upon the poor rates. That was, in fact, to impose a new burden upon the land, which was already sufficiently taxed.
§ MR. BAINESsaid, that the principle of making the vaccination system a charge upon the poor rates had been affirmed in 1840 and 1841.
§ MR. HENLEYcould see no reason why they should not attempt to redress an injustice, if one had been inflicted.
§ MR. BRADYsaid, that it seemed to him to be very undesirable, that the vaccination stations should be at the workhouses.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he wished to hear the opinion of the Government, not only upon the present Bill, but upon the Act of last year. Did they think that the principle which the House then adopted was a good one?
§ MR. BARROWsaid, he also thought it was undesirable to pass the present Bill. He had a strong objection to throwing additional charges upon the poor rates.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he wished to hear from the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Poor law Board the view the Government took of the measure of last year, and in the absence of such explanation, he proposed to throw out the clause altogether, in order to throw upon them the responsibility of legislating on the subject.
§ MR. BAINES, in answer to the appeal made to him by the noble Member for Totness (lord Seymour), as to his opinion of the Act of last year, said he was not present when that Act was passed, and he was, therefore, personally in no way responsible for it. But such an Act having been passed by the legislature, he had felt it his duty to endeavour to carry it out in the sense which he understood the legislature intended. For himself, he entertained doubts, whether it was the wise course to place the vaccination in connection with the Poor law in any way; but Parliament having taken a different view, his duty was simply to carry out the law as he found it. With regard to the present Bill, the Committee was aware that the Act of last year contained a provision that the child should be brought to the medical man for vaccination on the eighth day, and imposed a penalty on the parent for neglect; but it had since been discovered that the eighth day was the wrong day, and that it should have been the seventh. To cure that fault, therefore, this Bill was necessary. With regard to the charge, the Act of last Session having received the sanction of the legislature, it was better, in order to carry out that law, to place the charge upon the poor rate instead of the Consolidated Fund. If it was thrown upon the Consolidated Fund, it would be difficult to say what jobbery might take 371 place, or what the extent of the expenditure would be, and therefore he thought it more desirable that the control should be with those who paid the money.
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONbegged to observe, that this clause had been introduced at the request of the Registrar General.
§ MR. BRADYsaid, he doubted whether the alteration of the Bill, from the eighth to the seventh day, was an improvement. He thought that in this climate the eighth was the proper day for bringing the child to the medical man.
§ VISCOUNT BARRINGTONsaid, that the opinion expressed by the right hon. President of the Poor law Board amounted to a condemnation of the Bill. He would therefore recommend the postponement of the measure.
MR. FITZROYsaid, that as doubts had been expressed as to the alteration of the day, and, after the opinions expressed in favour of the withdrawal of the Bill, he should recommend the right hon. Baronet (Sir J. Pakington) to consent to withdraw all the clauses but the second. Next Session the whole matter might be referred to a Select Committee, who might inquire how the Bill of last Session had worked.
§ MR. MICHELLsaid, that medical men all over the country declared that they were unable to carry out the provisions of the Bill of last year. He was opposed to it on constitutional grounds—as no parents ought to be compelled to have their children vaccinated.
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, with respect to the course to be taken with the Bill, he could only say that it was not his Bill, having come down from the other House; but he thought legislation on the subject laudable. He did not feel justified in abandoning the Bill.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, he did not object to the principle of the Bill, but only to the mode of carrying out the details. He would refer to the difficulty of carrying out the clause compelling the parent to take the child for inspection a certain day after being vaccinated. He would, therefore, propose to reject all the clauses except the second, so as to leave the question to be dealt with generally next Session.
§ MR. BRADYsaid, that small-pox was more prevalent than usual this year, and that arose from the Act of last Session absolutely operating to prevent medical men from vaccinating with the necessary facility.
§ MR. BARROWmoved that the Chair- 372 man leave the chair, with the view of getting rid of the Bill.
MR. FITZROYhoped the hon. Gentleman would not press that Motion, because it was important that the second clause of the Bill which related to the penalties should be passed.
§ MR. BARROWsaid, that on the understanding that the Bill would be confined only to the second clause, he would not press his Motion.
Clause 1 put, and negatived; Clause 2 agreed to.
Clause 3,
§ SIR JOHN PAKINGTONsaid, if this clause was not passed, it would reverse the legislation of last Session enacting compulsory vaccination, which he thought desirable. He could not abandon the clause.
The clause was then put, and negatived, as were all the other clauses. House resumed.
Bill reported as amended.