MEDICAL GRADUATES (UNIVERSITY OF LONDON) BILL.

HC Deb 12 July 1854 vol 135 cc94-111

Order for Committee read.

Motion made and Question proposed, "That Mr. Speaker do now leave the Chair."

MR. BOUVERIE

said, that with regard to Great Britain, certain medical bodies had the exclusive privilege of exercising the medical profession in England. Great exception was taken to this monopoly by learned and competent members of the medical profession who had graduated in Ireland and Scotland. The Bill now before the House proposed to extend the monopoly to those who had taken a medical degree in the University of London, and there was a further proposition to include the University of Durham. If the medical graduates of the London and Durham Universities were to be admitted to the monopoly of practising in England, they would naturally be anxious to perpetuate it, to the exclusion of their Irish and Scotch brethren. He thought the monopoly was a bad one, and that it ought to be got rid of, and he would therefore move that the House go into Committee on the Bill that day three months.

MR. COWAN

seconded the Amendment. He said he must contend that the University of Edinburgh bad equal claims with any other to the consideration of that House. Its fame as a medical school was well known; in this respect it stood as high as any University in Europe. Its professors had been most successful in training up a band of medical practitioners. The subject was one which the Government ought to have taken up long ago. The existing state of the law was such as to protect the unqualified practitioner. The continuance of this anomaly inflicted a great injury on medical science and the community at large. He therefore hoped the Government would introduce a Bill on the subject early next Session. He objected to the present Bill on the same ground as the hon. Mover of the Amendment.

Amendment proposed, to leave out from the word "That" to the end of the Question, in order to add the words "this House will, upon this day three months, resolve itself into the said Committee," instead thereof.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, that when his attention was first drawn to the Bill, he certainly shared in the opinions which had been expressed by his hon. Friends behind him, and thought that it would be most desirable to postpone the measure until the Government had been able to mature some general arrangement for the consideration of Parliament. But he confessed that the representations which had since been made to him on behalf of the London University had altered the view which at first sight he was disposed to take, and he now thought that, with a change in the wording, which he should propose in Committee, and which would have the effect of merely carrying out the understanding that he conceived had been come to between the supporters and the opposers of the Bill, and the purpose of which would he to exclude the surgical practice and confine the privilege to be given to the London University to medical practice, in the same manner as practically the degrees of Oxford and Cambridge were confined, he might recommend the House to adopt the Bill. When the London University was first established, it was very much for the purpose of opening the channels of professional avocation to persons who did not belong to the Church of England. Degrees at Oxford and Cambridge were incumbered with certain tests and declarations which practically excluded Dissenters; and when the University of London was established there was a distinct understanding between the promoters of the University and the Government that the degrees to be granted by that Univer- sity should for all professional, not ecclesiastical, purposes confer the same privileges and advantages as were conferred by similar corresponding degrees at Oxford and Cambridge. The professional advantages conferred related to law and medicine; and accordingly degrees in medicine had been granted, and he was informed, and he believed correctly informed, that the medical examination at the London University was quite as good as—if not better than—the examinations at either of the two Universities or that of the College of Physicians. In short the public had quite as good a security by means of the degrees conferred by this University as they had by the degrees conferred by any other. As far, then, as the interest of the public was concerned, no objection could arise from continuing the power the University had hitherto enjoyed. And as far as the Dissenters were concerned, it seemed to him that it would be a breach of faith to shut upon them now that channel to professional avocations which by means of this University had been open to them for a considerable period. Now what, then, was the circumstance which rendered any legislation at this moment necessary? The circumstance was this. In the course of last Session a Bill was passed regulating lunatic asylums, and connected with lunatics, which gave the power of granting certificates, and confined that power to persons legally authorised so to do, and doubts had since arisen whether, under the law as it now stood, those graduates of the University of London who had, in the course of their professional practice, given those certificates, might not be subject to penalties for having done so. Now it would be very unfair, he thought, to impose a new penalty upon gentlemen who, having taken degrees after examination, had fully sustained their qualifications to practise, and expose them to this penalty in consequence of the inadvertent legislation of last Session. It did not appear to him that the Bill would at all interfere with any general arrangement which Parliament might think fit to adopt in the course of next Session. It was exceedingly desirable that some general arrangement should be effected. He had been in communication with the Presidents of the two colleges of physicians and surgeons upon the subject; and only that morning one of those gentlemen had suggested to him a mode of coming to some arrangement, which he (Lord Palmerston) thought might possibly furnish the Government with materials from which to frame a measure for the consideration of Parliament. But if he thought this Bill would throw any difficulty in the way of such a general arrangement, undoubtedly that would constitute an objection to the measure. He could not, however, think that it would. On the contrary, if it confined the power and the privileges granted by the London University to medical practice, and did not extend them to surgical practice—if it simply gave to graduates of the London University those privileges of medical practice which the degrees of Oxford and Cambridge had practically given them—it would have this effect it would merely confirm by law an arrangement which had existed ever since the commencement of the University; which was entered into with it when first its constitution was framed; and he thought it would be an act of injustice to the University, and especially towards the body of Dissenters, who were very much interested in the matter, if that House did not agree to the Bill, subject to the limitation in regard to surgical practice, which he should feel it his duty to propose if it went into Committee.

MR. ATHERTON

said, it was his intention to support the Bill. He thought the opposition to it was based on the "dog-in-the-manger" principle. Nothing could be more disgraceful than the present state of the law regarding medical practice. The qualified practitioner had literally no protection; for, notwithstanding diplomas and degrees, quacks might practise surgery as largely and successfully as qualified persons, provided they gave up the questionable advantage of being able to sue for their fees. He thought the Bill would effect a desirable improvement as far as it went; and it was no reason for rejecting it that it did not apply to the three kingdoms. The University of Durham stood on the same footing as that of London, and was entitled to the same privileges.

MR. WALPOLE

said, he thought the effect of the Bill would be to increase existing anomalies, and therefore hoped it would not be further proceeded with during the present Session. He entirely agreed with the reasons which had been given for introducing the Bill, if it were not proposed to amend the general state of the law. If the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge had the power of granting licences for the practice of medicine, which other Universities, like London and Durham, did not possess, that power ought to be conferred upon the latter Universities, and all the Universities should be placed upon the same footing. Was it advisable, however, he would ask, to introduce more anomalies into the law than existed at present? They must bear in mind that there were twenty-two different bodies in the United Kingdom which had now the power of granting licences of different descriptions. Some of these bodies had the power of conferring certain degrees, and others of granting licences; some of granting licences in particular districts, like two counties, and some in certain parts of the kingdom to the exclusion of others. Now what this Bill proposed to do was, to give the University of London the power of granting licences just in the very district that was already filled up, and not in those districts that were vacant. By the Statute of Henry VIII. power was given to the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge to grant licences for the practice of medicine in every part of the United Kingdom except within seven miles of the City of London; and the University of London asked by this Bill the advantages which were now possessed by Oxford and Cambridge. In other words, the University of London, which was in the centre of the metropolis, was to have power of granting licences where other licences might be given now, but took no power to grant licences within seven miles of the city of London. Surely, if the University of London was to have the power of granting licences at all, that power ought equally to extend to the metropolis. He understood that the noble Lord proposed to alter the Bill in Committee, and further to amend it with reference to a point that had been amended before—namely, the exclusion of the College of Surgeons from its provisions. He (Mr. Walpole) thought there were special grounds for excluding that college; but if the degree of any University was to be a sufficient licence to a man to practise in surgery, medicine, or physic of any kind—if such a degree was to give the power to the student to practise higher branches of the profession than that of surgery—why should the licence confer privileges in the one case which it did not confer in the other? Was the education in surgery less advantageous or less extensive in the London University than the education in medicine? On the contrary, he believed it was greater, and that it was better and more scientifically conducted than the education even in reference to medicine. That being so, he was anxious not to prevent the members of the London University from having the same privileges which were now enjoyed by the members of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, and he wished the House not to interpose another anomaly which would interfere with any effective legislation upon the subject. He would therefore suggest that a new Bill should be brought in next year. Rather than give these twenty-two bodies co-equal and co-ordinate authority to grant licences—instead of enabling them to run against each other so that the public had no guarantee that the qualifications they granted were good—he would recommend a law securing, in the first place, uniformity of education in the different bodies granting licences, and secondly, uniformity of qualification. There was only one way of securing these objects, and that was by letting the Universities have the power, which they now possessed, of conferring degrees in the various branches of medicine on the young men who studied there, so as to give them the opportunity of going into the world with a certificate of merit when they began their practice; and to intrust certain bodies in each of the three kingdoms with the power of saying whether or not the qualifications of these young men were of such a character and their education had been carried to such an extent that the public might have a guarantee in these licences that they might trust their health and their lives to these young men. He concurred in thinking that if the power of granting licences were left with the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge it must also be given to the London University.

MR. NAPIER

said, he wished to say a word in behalf of the University of Dublin, which he had the honour to represent. He held that all colleges which gave a sound and sufficient education, and had not now the power of legally conferring a diploma or degree, ought to have such a power granted to them. The present Bill would, however, extend the limitations contained in the Statute of Henry VIII., and continue to exclude the University of Dublin from this privilege.

MR. STRUTT

said, that from the original foundation of the London University, the clear understanding had been that its object was to give to those persons who were not members of the Church of Eng- land the same civil privileges as were possessed by the graduates of Oxford and Cambridge. That principle had been generally acted upon from that time to this, and had been recognised by every successive Government, including those of Sir Robert Peel, Lord John Russell, and the Earl of Derby; but during the last Session of Parliament two Acts were passed—one the Lunacy Act, and the other the Vaccination Act—from which the University of London was omitted; and the consequence was, that the graduates, who had passed a more severe test as to their medical knowledge than any that was imposed by either Oxford or Cambridge, were rendered liable to heavy penalties simply for doing that which the exercise of their profession required; and in one instance he understood an action had been brought for the recovery of those penalties. Under these circumstances it had been thought desirable that a short Bill should be passed to restore persons who had graduated at the London University to the position in which they had stood for the last twenty years, and in which they would still have remained but for the passing of the two Acts to which he had alluded. He trusted that the noble Lord the Home Secretary would, in the course of next Session, bring in a Bill for the purpose of placing the medical practitioners of the three kingdoms upon an equal footing; but that was no reason for a breach of the understanding which had existed with the London University for the last twenty years, or for the rejection of the present Bill.

MR. GROGAN

said, he thought that the explanation given of the object of the Bill by the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) had very much altered the aspect in which this question stood. That object seemed to be to supply an omission occurring in two Acts passed last Session; but he doubted whether the introduction of a short Bill to remove that difficulty would not have been a preferable mode of proceeding.

MR. MOWBRAY

said, he would submit that the question before the House was not one of medical reform, but a question of whether that House was to do an act of simple justice to the University of London, which had been constituted by Royal Charter, and intended by that Charter to have all the privileges that were conferred upon the older Universities in the country, but which, for want of those privileges, had been placed in a position of undeserved inferiority.

MR. MICHELL

said, it was rather hard upon the graduates of the University of London that they had, upon the faith of Royal Charters and Acts of Parliament, paid money for degrees which were of no use. The noble Lord the Home Secretary had postponed until next Session any legislation upon the subject of the medical profession, but no Bill would be likely to be so beneficial to the medical profession as that brought in by the hon. Member for Leitrim (Mr. Brady), which the noble Viscount had opposed. He would warn the noble Viscount that, if his Bill should preserve the monopoly of the College of Surgeons and the College of Physicians, they would never satisfy either the profession or the public. There were grave anomalies in the medical profession as at present constituted, and it was requisite that these should be removed for the interest of the public.

MR. BRADY

said, this Bill had been the means of eliciting opinions in that Rouse which would give great satisfaction to the medical profession at large. There was no question more worthy the consideration of the House than that of medical reform, for he believed that, under the existing law, society was greatly injured by the anomalies which existed in reference to the medical profession. A man who took a medical degree at the University of London was considered equally competent to practise with any practitioner who obtained his diploma in any other part of the United Kingdom; and he held it would be a great hardship to the graduates of that institution if they were to be shut out from the privileges which the degrees they took there ought to confer upon them. The Bill now before the House was one which would do an immense deal of good, therefore he would have much satisfaction in voting for it going into Committee.

MR. BELL

said, he was quite alive to the necessity of a Medical Reform Bill, but the profession was a very united one, so far as opposing and throwing out all measures for the reform of their calling. if he believed this Bill would tend to protract or postpone medical reform, he would never have promoted and taken charge of it; but he fully believed that it rather tended to advance the cause of medical reform, and he hoped the House would not agree to the hon. Member for Kilmarnock's (Mr. Bouverie's) Amendment.

MR. FORBES

said, he opposed the Motion on the ground that the Bill, while opening the door to admit one University, would close it against other medical schools, which were just as celebrated as that of the University of London.

MR. CRAUFURD

said, there was a strong opposition to the Bill in Scotland, and as one of the few Members for Scotland who supported it he wished to say that he did so because he believed it was a step in the course of medical reform, and despairing of any great measure on the subject, he would accept any advance in that direction, however small.

MR. DUNLOP

said, he did not think it was a step towards medical reform to extend the system of allowing the position of medical men to depend upon the diplomas of the Universities.

MR. HADFIELD

said, he thought that a pressing case for legislation had been made, but when it was shown that honourable and learned men were liable to penalties unless this Bill should pass, were these gentlemen to wait until the profession could agree upon a Bill of medical reform, when every one admitted that the medical profession was the most quarrelsome body in the kingdom—far more quarrelsome than the lawyers themselves?

MR. HENLEY

said, he did not entertain a very confident hope that legislation upon this subject could take place this Session; but he should vote for going into Committee, believing that the discussion would be instructive, and might help the House on the subject of medical reform.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Question."

The House divided:—Ayes 90; Noes 26: Majority 64.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

House in Committee.

Clause 1 (Graduates in Medicine of the University of London to be entitled to practise Physic in the same manner as Graduates of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge).

MR. MOWBRAY

said, he wished to move to insert certain words in the preamble, the object of the alteration being to confer on the University of Durham the same privileges as by the present Bill were conferred upon the University of London. He saw no reason why medical students of Durham University, which was established by Royal Charter, and which required them to reside some years in the University, and to pass a rigid examination before degrees were conferred on them, should not enjoy the same advantages in this respect as students of the University of London.

MR. HEADLAM

said, he thought the Committee could not but accede to the Motion; the objection to the existing law was, that it created something like a monopoly. No medical school bore a higher character than that of Durham, and it was highly desirable, considering the distance from the metropolis, that medical students in the north of England should have equal privileges conferred on them by going to a University in their own neighbourhood, as by coming to the metropolis.

MR. ATHERTON

said, that the House, by going into Committee upon the Bill, had affirmed the propriety, as long as any difference had existed, of at least attempting to make the state of the law in each portion of the United Kingdom as perfect as possible, and it could hardly be contended that, because London was situated on the banks of the Thames, and Durham upon those of the Wear, that that was sufficient to justify a difference in principle. The Committee had heard that the degrees of medicine were not conferred until after the amplest opportunities of testing the capabilities of the student; and, indeed, it would be a most cruel thing to the community to send among them persons who were destitute of medical qualifications. He thought the Committee would do well to consent to the Amendment of the hon. Member for Durham.

MR. NAPIER

said, he did not object to the Amendment, but he must complain that, if they excluded the University of Dublin from the same privileges, they would be drawing a very invidious distinction; and he thought, considering the excellence of its medical school, it would be very unfair to extend the privileges of the London and Durham Universities, and continue the present restrictions of the practice of medical graduates of the Dublin University to Ireland alone.

MR. ELLIOT

said, the same argument would apply to Scotch Universities. He should vote for the Amendment, on the understanding that he should be at liberty to propose that every person legally qualified to practise in any part of the United Kingdom should be included after the word "London."

THE CHAIRMAN

intimated that, by the rules of the House, such an Amendment could not be made without notice.

MR. COWAN

said, he had opposed the Bill going into Committee, not from any unfavourable opinion he had of the University of London—quite the contrary—but simply because he thought it unwise to legislate for a single institution alone. Now that the Bill had gone into Committee, he thought it only fair and reasonable that its provisions should be extended so as to embrace all the Universities of Scotland.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, he thought a very good case had been made out for the addition of the University of Durham, but he apprehended that it was not competent for the Committee, at that stage of the Bill, to introduce anything in it with regard to the Scotch Universities or the University of Dublin. He was not in a condition to state to the Committee any deliberate views as to the general subject of medical reform; but he was glad to say, so far as he had been able to consider the matter, it seemed to him that no measure of medical reform would be satisfactory to the country that did not place the medical degrees of England, Ireland, and Scotland upon the same footing, with the view to practising in any part of, the United Kingdom. He thought an arrangement might be made, by which similar tests of qualifications might be applied to each of the three parts of the kingdom, and by which a medical or a surgical man, having submitted to those tests, on going to any part of the kingdom, might be furnished with a licence to practise, which licence should be coextensive to every part of the United Kingdom. If that was so, he thought it would not be desirable to deal with that question piecemeal upon a Bill of this sort. He should endeavour to deal with it when he introduced a general measure, but it seemed to him that it would be sufficient upon the present occasion to act upon the instructions already given by the House. They would only incumber and embarrass their proceedings if they were now to discuss the right of medical men qualified in one part of the kingdom to practise in every other part.

MR. NAPIER

said, he would beg to ask what in that case was the object of this Bill?

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, that by the accidental operation of an Act passed last year, persons who had taken medical degrees at the University of London were subjected to penalties which it was never intended they should be liable to, and it was therefore proposed to pass this Bill, to replace them in the position in which they had previously stood.

MR. WALPOLE

said, nothing more applied to the students of the London University by the measure of last year than applied to them before. He supposed the noble Lord alluded to the interpretation clause of that Act, by which certain persons not qualified by law could not practise, and as long as the law remained what it was, they could not qualify. He thought the anomalies which he had already pointed out would be largely increased by this Bill. It had been said that a monopoly had been enjoyed by Oxford and Cambridge, which was to be taken from them and given to the University of London. He believed that six medical degrees were not conferred by those Universities during the course of the year; but they were going to give privileges to the London and Durham Universities which they denied to Dublin and Scotland. He must say, the more they advanced with this Bill the more he saw the impropriety of proceeding with it, unless those privileges were to be extended to the whole kingdom.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, it was the interpretation clause to which he alluded, and he apprehended that the present Bill was introduced to relieve medical graduates of the University of London from the penalties under that Act.

MR. NAPIER

said, the noble Lord was doing more than curing a defect. The noble Lord would put other Universities—Dublin University especially—in an inferior position.

MR. THORNELY

said, he was prepared to support any measure of general reform which should give to the University of London similar privileges in respect to medical graduates to those conferred on Oxford and Cambridge; but they ought not to confer them on the University of London without doing away with the anomalies in other parts of the kingdom.

MR. WALPOLE

said, he was prepared to put all Universities on the same footing, but not to give privileges to the London University until the anomalous position of other Universities was remedied.

MR. COWAN

said, that the object to which the noble Lord had referred was provided for by the second clause, which exempted the licentiates of the London University from the penalties to which they were supposed to be made liable by recent legislation with respect to lunatics and vaccination. He would now move that the Chairman should report progress, in order that, when the House resumed, he might move an instruction to the Committee to include the Scotch Universities in the operation of this measure.

MR. ATHERTON

said, he considered it was a matter of good faith that the privileges should be extended to the University of London, and he thought it was not fair that hon. Gentlemen should take advantage of the forms of the House to reagitate the whole question.

LORD NAAS

said, he had voted for going into Committee on this Bill under the impression that in Committee the Irish Universities would be included in it. As, however, that could not be done in accordance with the forms of the House, he could not assent to the Bill passing through the Committee in its present form. As it now stood it would enable the graduates of the University of London to practise over the whole of the United Kingdom, while those of the Irish Universities would be confined to Ireland, and those of the Scotch Universities to Scotland. He should, therefore, vote for reporting progress, in order that the Committee might be instructed to include the Scotch and Irish Universities in the Bill.

MR. PIGOTT

said, that, by the law, as it now stood, a licentiate of the University of Dublin could practise in Ireland, and a licentiate of the Scotch Universities in Scotland; but the licentiates of the University of London could not practise in England. The object of the present Bill was to abolish this injustice.

MR. BELL

said, medical men who had graduated in Scotch and Irish Universities could practise everywhere in those countries respectively, and the object of the present measure was to enable medical students who had graduated at the London University to practise all over England, which they could not do at present.

COLONEL DUNNE

said, the Bill would give a most unjust monopoly to the London University. He thought it was one of the most unfair Bills that had been proposed to the House. The Irish medical and surgical practitioners only asked the same privileges as were enjoyed by their brethren in England. He trusted that this Bill would be withdrawn, in order that a general Bill, applying to all parts of the United Kingdom, might be submitted next Session.

GOULBURN

said, that what was wanted was some general measure to secure the fitness of medical men. He feared that if, without passing such a measure, they were gradually to extend the permission to practise to the members of one body after another, such a course would very probably lead to a deterioration in the qualifications of the medical profession generally. He did not think it was expedient to extend the coveted privileges to Durham University, which did not furnish the same means of study that were afforded by the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and London.

MR. MOWBRAY

said, he would suggest that it was possible to limit the operations of this Act to England. That would avoid the objections started by the Irish and Scotch Members with respect to the injustice of giving the graduates of London or Durham the privilege denied to those of the Irish and Scotch Universities, of practising all over the United Kingdom.

MR. VINCENT SCULLY

said, that unless they agreed to report progress, they could not, as justice required, extend the operation of the Bill to the Irish and Scotch Universities. No injury was practically inflicted upon Irish medical men by giving the graduates of Oxford and Cambridge the privilege of practising in Ireland, because, as there was no school of medicine in either University, the privilege really amounted to nothing. That, however, was not the case with respect to the University of London, the numerous medical graduates of which would overrun Ireland, without the Irish being able to return the compliment. It was not a bad proof that the Bill was a bad one, that both the Irish and Scotch Members were united in opposing it; for when they hunted in couples there could be little doubt that they were asserting their proper rights and privileges.

MR. HEADLAM

said, that the injustice supposed to be inflicted by this Bill upon the graduates of the Irish and Scotch Universities would be avoided by adding to the clause a proviso, "that nothing herein contained shall authorise or empower the graduates of the University of London or Durham to practise in Ireland or Scotland." No one denied that it was just that the graduates of these Universities should, as far as England went, enjoy the same privileges as those of Oxford and Cambridge. That object would be attained by the addition of this proviso, which would not curtail any privileges which the graduates of the London and Durham Universities already enjoyed by other Acts. It was quite clear that if progress was reported, the measure would be altogether defeated.

MR. COWAN

said, the more they discussed the matter the more complex it became, and he should therefore press the Motion.

MR. STRUTT

said, that the object of this Bill was simply to fulfil a pledge which was given twenty years ago to the Dissenters of England, that the graduates of the London University should be placed on the same footing as those of Oxford and Cambridge. They had been placed in a less advantageous position by the accidental operation of an Act which was passed last year, and under this grievance some 230 graduates, who bad passed a far severer examination than was imposed at the older Universities, were now labouring. The question for the Committee was, whether they would now reimpose the stigma and the exclusion which, twenty years ago, that House resolved to abolish? If they were to attempt to insert the Irish and Scotch Universities in the present Bill, it would be defeated for the present Session, at all events, for it was clear that that question could only be dealt with in a general measure.

MR. NAPIER

said, that a great many English Dissenters went to the University of Dublin, and took degrees. Why exclude them?

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, no one could feel more strongly than he did the importance of putting the medical profession upon a proper footing, that should be consistent not only with the interests of the medical profession, but also with the interests of those who were to be the subjects of those members. He thought the last consideration as fully deserving the attention of the Committee as the former; but he thought that any attempt to make this Bill effect a general reform must inevitably fail, because no one could for a moment suppose that if they were to report progress for the purpose of moving an instruction to the Committee to extend the privileges to the other Universities, that such a Bill would pass into law. It would be going headlong to a conclusion without properly sounding their ground. He quite agreed that a medical degree given in one part of the kingdom ought to give the right to practise in all parts of the kingdom; but then they must establish in all places where they give degrees a uniform test, and that required some consideration. In the meantime he did not see why they should expose the graduates of the University of London to penalties. As to the notion that these graduates would invade Ireland and overrun Scotland, he thought there was sufficient nationality in those countries to protect them.

MR. COGAN

said, he hoped that the same course which bad been pursued towards most of the other measures of the Session—postponement—would be applied to this measure.

MR. BRADY

said, he thought it was quite absurd to suppose that the graduates of London or Durham would "overrun" either Ireland or Scotland. Instead of Englishmen going to Ireland and Scotland, the fact was that Irishmen and Scotchmen came to practise in England.

MR. J. D. FITZGERALD

said, that, if it was once established that the London University had a right to the privileges conferred upon its graduates by this Bill, it would be impossible, in a general measure, to refuse to extend similar privileges to the Universities of Ireland and Scotland. He believed, therefore, that the representatives of those countries were not really promoting the interests of their constituents by opposing this Bill. The only real objection to this measure would be perfectly obviated by agreeing to the proviso suggested by the hon. and learned Member for Newcastle (Mr. Headlam).

MR. VINCENT SCULLY

said, the proviso which the hon. and learned Member for Newcastle had announced his intention of proposing had removed his objection, and he should now vote against reporting progress.

MR. ELLIOT

said, that the Scotch and Irish Members could not gain their object under this Bill, and if the noble Lord (Lord Palmerston) would undertake to bring in a measure next Session, he thought it would be better to allow this Bill to pass.

MR. MICHELL

said, there was no school of medicine connected with the University of London. The mistake into which some hon. Members had fallen on this point had arisen from the idea that the school belonging to the University College belonged in fact to the University. Another strange error had also been committed with regard to Cambridge, where it had been stated that there was no school of medicine, although in point of fact there was no better medical school in the world. And the reason was plain. On the one side of the town there was a fen, and on the other a chalk district, so that you got all the diseases there that you would meet with in your life. He had been in the profession twenty-eight years, and he had visited the schools at Vienna, Paris, Dublin, and London, but he had nowhere seen a better educational hospital than that at Cambridge. He felt bound to say this, although the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn) had not seen fit to rise and contradict the assertion, that there was no school of medicine attached to his University.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 50; Noes 109: Majority 59. The Amendment to insert after "London" the words "or Durham" was then agreed to.

MR. MICHELL

moved the insertion of words giving to the graduates the power of practising in London in the same manner as "any Fellow of the College of Physicians of London or." While this monopoly of the College of Physicians with regard. to practising in the metropolis existed no good would be done in the work of medical reform.

MR. BELL

opposed the Amendment, on the ground that it would open up the whole subject of medical reform in a far larger degree than the question with regard to the Scotch and Irish Universities.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 5; Noes 147: Majority 142. Clause agreed to; as were also the remaining clauses.

MR. WALPOLE

said, he understood the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) to support a system of uniform education and uniform qualification in reference to the medical profession, and to say, in addition, that this uniform education and uniform qualification should be obtained through the different collegiate institutions of the country, What he (Mr. Walpole) was afraid of was, that if they proceeded in that way they would get neither uniform education nor uniform qualification. The Colleges of Physicians in Dublin, London, and Edinburgh should be put upon a good footing, so that they would be respected through the country, and would be responsible for that uniformity of qualification which would constitute the test to which persons should be subjected before they were allowed to practise in different parts of the country.

The House resumed; Bill reported, as amended.