PUBLIC BUSINESS. (Hansard, 13 May 1853)

§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTON
having moved that the House on its rising should adjourn till Thursday next,

§ MR. DISRAELI
said, perhaps the noble Lord would inform the House as to the course of public business next week. It would be very convenient if they could know what business was to be taken on Thursday and Friday next.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
That, of course, must in some degree depend upon the progress made tonight. The House should understand that the great object of the Government at the present moment is to press forward the financial business; not, of course, without due consideration, but so as not to allow other business to interfere with its progress. Among the financial business, that which is the most important is the Bill for the renewal of the income tax up to the point of passing through the Committee on the Bill. What I propose is, to report the Resolution to which the Committee of Ways and Means came with reference to the income tax immediately. An hon. and learned Gentleman has given notice of a Motion with reference to exemptions from the income tax under a certain rate; but I have received an intimation from him that he will be disposed to make that Motion where, in point of fact, it would be most properly and regularly made—in Committee on the Bill. That being so, it will be perfectly practicable for me to bring in the Bill this evening, and to circulate it to-morrow morning. Under these circumstances, I hope that the House will be disposed to take the second reading of that Bill upon 319 Thursday in next week, or, if not, upon Friday; at any rate, keeping in view the object of going into Committee upon the Bill at the earliest possible moment, and getting through without delay. I have spoken so far under the expectation that the Legacy Duty Resolution will be proceeded with immediately after we have reported the Income Tax Resolution; and I hope that will be to-night. Then, between the present time and going into Committee upon the income tax, the only business connected with finance likely to lead to a discussion will be the second reading of the Spirit Duties Bill.

§ MR. DISRAELI
As the order is somewhat changed, I think it would be extremely inconvenient that we should have the second reading of the Income and Property Tax Bill on Thursday next. I should remind Her Majesty's Ministers that the noble Lord the Member for the City of London promised that before the Whitsuntide holidays he would announce the day upon which the statement would be made with reference to the future administration of the Indian Empire. It would be convenient that we should be informed of that, especially as the promise has been made.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
In what I said with respect to the second reading of the Income Tax Bill and the Spirit Duties Bill, I proceeded upon the assumption that it was doubtful whether the second reading of the Spirit Duties Bill would occupy the whole evening. As to the Income Tax Bill, if hon. Gentlemen prefer Friday in next week to Thursday, I have no objection to accede to that. But I am in the hope and expectation that there will be no objection to go into Committee upon the Income Tax Bill upon the following Monday, provided it be, as I have promised that it shall be, printed and circulated at once.

§ MR. DISRAELI
I think, if the right hon. Gentleman could fix the second reading of the Income Tax Bill for Monday, and could fill up the interval with other business, it would be much the more convenient course.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
I am extremely sorry that, in the state of the public business, it will be impossible for the Government to accede to that proposition.

§ MR. MILNER GIBSON
said, he must beg to ask a question in reference to the Orders of the House, relative to the course 320 in which business was to be taken on the Thursdays. By a Standing Order, passed at the beginning of every Session, it was stated that "the Orders of the Day shall be disposed of in the order in which they stand on the paper, the right being reserved to Her Majesty's Ministers of placing Government orders at the head of the list, in the rotation in which they are to be taken upon the days on which Government Bills have precedence." He wished to ask Mr. Speaker where was the authority for Government Bills having precedence upon a Thursday? He believed that by ancient usage they had precedence upon Mondays and Fridays, and that upon those days, therefore, the Government might place their own orders at the head of the list. The House had passed an order recently that upon Thursdays the Orders of the Day should take precedence of Motions; but he was not aware that they went further, or that the Government should have the power of placing their orders in precedence of the other orders. He asked this question with the view of guiding his own course with respect to the County Rates Expenditure Bill. He saw nothing in the words of the orders which precluded him from asking the House to consider that Bill in its turn upon a Thursday. He begged to submit this question for the opinion of Mr. Speaker.

§ MR. SPEAKER
The right hon. Gentleman having been good enough to give me notice of his question, I will endeavour to state precisely what has been the usage of the House in this respect. The order is as the right hon. Gentleman has quoted it, and there is nothing in that order which states that the Government business shall have precedence. On Thursdays I can, therefore, only interpret the Order by the usage and practice of the House in this respect. The rule was first made in 1848, since which it has been renewed every Session until last Session, when, from being a Sessional Order, it was converted into a Standing Order. In 1850 I find there were several Motions made giving Orders of the Day precedence upon alternate Thursdays, without giving priority to the Bills introduced by the Government. The Government have been in the habit of claiming precedence for their own orders on Thursdays whenever the Orders of the Day have precedence, except in cases where the contrary has been expressed to be the intention of the House. Under these circumstances, merely inter- 321 preting the usage of the House by its own practice, I think, that unless a special exception is made, the Government Orders are entitled to precedence whenever the House has decided that Orders of the Day shall have precedence over notices of Motions on other days than Mondays, Thursdays, and Fridays.

§ MR. MILNER GIBSON
said, he would beg to remark, with all respect, that if the Government were entitled to priority on Thursdays, unless shut out by special enactment, they would by the same rule be entitled to priority on Wednesdays. He, of course, knew what the understanding on the matter was, and he had no wish to interfere with any understanding that had been come to; but he respectfully submitted that if the House intended, not only that Orders of the Day should have precedence over Motions, but that Government should also have precedence, they had better say so by a distinct Resolution, in order that there might be no mistake; because, if the doctrine were to be held, that unless they barred the claim of Government to priority, the Government would necessarily have precedence, the result would be that Government would practically have the priority on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays, and there would actually be left no possible day for an independent Member to conduct a Bill through the House.

§ MR. SPEAKER
I beg to remind the right hon. Gentleman, that, long before the rule was enacted to which I have referred, Wednesday was always considered a Supply day; and it has been only of late years that it has been given up to the consideration of Bills brought in by Members unconnected with the Government.

§ MR. MILNER GIBSON
said, that inasmuch as there was great doubt what public business would come on on Thursday, and inasmuch as he had a strong primâ facie claim for that evening, he wished to ask if the Government had any objection to allow his Bill to be then proceeded with?

§ VISCOUNT PALMERSTON
I beg to remind the House that when my noble Friend (Lord John Russell) moved that Orders of the Day should have precedence on Thursdays, he stated distinctly that his object was to give an opportunity to the Government for carrying on the business of the country, and I do not conceive that in the House at large there was any misunderstanding with respect to that point. With regard to the question of my right 322 hon. Friend, I am afraid he will not persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give way to him on Thursday next.

§ SIR FITZROY KELLY
said, that the answer which the noble Lord had just given only expressed the general sentiment which was pervading the House on the subject. At the same time, if there was no important Government business coming on on Thursday next, it would only be an act of justice to the right hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson), as well as some convenience to the House, to enable the County Rate Bill to come on that evening.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, it was understood that the second reading of the Income Tax Bill stood fixed for this day week. They were now in this condition: they had to-night and next Thursday to dispose of. The right hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. M. Gibson) asked for a night to enable him to proceed with the County Rates Expenditure Bill. [Mr. M. GIBSON: Part of a night.] It really would be tantalising the right hon. Gentleman to give him only part of a night. He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) could assure the hon. and learned Gentleman (Sir F. Kelly) that there was an abundant supply of Government business in immediate connexion with the public service to occupy both Thursday and Friday next. In the first place, there would be the report on the Legacy Duty Resolution—supposing them to get it passed this evening—and then there was the second reading of the Spirit Duties Bill; and then, if they disposed of those two subjects, it was most desirable for the public service that the Secretary of the Treasury should have an opportunity of asking the House to go into a Committee of Supply.

§ SIR ROBERT H. INGLIS
said, he would take that opportunity to put to the hon. Secretary of the Treasury in public a question which he had before put to him in private. The House would recollect that the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to alter the Customs duties with respect to the Isle of Man. Now, communications had taken place between Her Majesty's Ministers and the Governor of that island upon the subject in question. He wished to know what the intentions of Her Majesty's Government upon the subject really were, and also to ask if there was any objection to lay the correspondence to which he referred upon the table of the House? About nine years ago 323 a remonstrance had been made upon the part of the inhabitants of the Isle of Man against a measure which had been proposed to the Government of the day, and in consequence of that remonstrance modifications had been made in the provisions of that measure. A similar course might, in the present instance, be advisable, and he thought it desirable that if any modification were to be effected in the plan of the Government, it should be made before they committed themselves more particularly to the measure in question.

§ MR. J. WILSON
said, he thought that the hon. Baronet would agree with him in thinking that it was not desirable that the correspondence in question should be laid upon the table of the House until the communications between Her Majesty's Ministers and the Governor of the Isle of Man had been brought to a close. He (Mr. J. Wilson) thought he should be able, immediately after the recess, to lay the Bill upon the subject of the Customs Duties upon the table.

§ LORD DUDLEY STUART
said, he did not exactly understand what business was to be proceeded with on Thursday.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, it was impossible to give an absolute pledge until he knew the result of to-night's discussion. Could the noble Lord tell him what was going to take place to-night? If so, it would be very handsome on the part of the noble Lord, and he should have no difficulty in describing the course of business on Thursday. Assuming that the debate on the Legacy Duty to-night should finish in time for other business, he would proceed with the Spirit Duties Bill on Thursday. He would move that first, unless there should be a discussion on the Report of the Legacy Duty Resolutions. After the Spirit Duties, he should propose that the House go into Committee of Supply. He understood some hon. Gentleman imagined that the Hackney Carriages Bill would come on on that day, and that would be the case if a convenient arrangement could be made for that purpose.