HC Deb 05 May 1853 vol 126 cc1167-218

The House went into Committee of Ways and Means.

Question again proposed— That it is the opinion of this Committee, that, towards raising the Supply granted to Her Majesty, there shall be raised annually during the terms hereinafter limited, the several Bates and Duties following (that is to say):— For and in respect of the property in any lands, tenements, or hereditaments, in the United Kingdom, and for and in respect of every annuity, pension, or stipend, payable by Her Majesty or out of the Public Revenue of the United Kingdom; and for and in respect of all interest of money, annuities, dividends, and shares of annuities payable to any person or persons, bodies politic or corporate, companies or societies, whether corporate or not corporate; and for and in respect of the annual profits or gains arising or accruing to any person or persons whatever, resident in the United Kingdom, from any kind of property whatever, whether situate in the United Kingdom or elsewhere, or from any annuities, allowances, or stipends, or from any profession, trade, or vocation, whether the same shall be respectively exercised in the United Kingdom or elsewhere; and for and in respect of the annual profits or gains arising or accruing to any person or persons not resident within the United Kingdom from any property whatever in the United Kingdom, or from any trade, profession, or vocation, exercised in the United Kingdom; for every twenty shillings of the annual value or amount thereof—

For two years from April 5, 1883. £0 0 7
And for two years from April 5,1855 0 0 6
And for three years from April 5, 1857 0 0 5

"And that on April 5, 1860, except as to the collection of monies then due, the said Bates and Duties shall cease and determine.

"And for and in respect of the occupation of such lands, tenements, or hereditaments (other than a dwelling-house occupied by a tenant distinct from a farm of lands), for every twenty shillings of the annual value thereof, one moiety of each of the said sums of 7d., 6d., and 5d., for the above-named times respectively."

MR. LAWLESS

moved by way of Amendment, that the words "Great Britain" be substituted for "United Kingdom," with the view of exempting Ireland from the income tax. He regarded many parts of the Budget of the right hon. Gentleman as perfectly unobjectionable, and particularly the extension of the probate duty to succession to real property. If therefore he were asked why he did not vote in the minority the other night on the Amendment of the hon. Baronet the Member for Herts (Sir E. Lytton Bulwer), he would reply that he was not only Member for Clonmel, but had an interest in the Budget, as a question for the kingdom at large, and regarded the principle of it as a step in the right direction. The present Chancellor of the Exchequer was the first who had had the courage to leap over the park-wall of the privileged classes, and place on their shoulders, in the shape of a legacy duty, a fair share of the burdens which they had hitherto escaped. He regarded the Amendment of the hon. Baronet as nothing more than an attempt to keep up those fences and park-walls, and to bring back the late Government to power, and he had therefore voted against it; but that vote would not prevent his resisting the extension of the income tax to Ireland, and, whatever might be the result, he would most certainly press his Motion to a division. He desired to prevent the late Government being restored to power for many reasons. First, he remembered that they were the first Government that had actually proposed to extend the income tax to funded property and salaries in Ireland —although certainly the form of the impost had been greatly mitigated in the proposal of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli)—and he understood that they would not have opposed the Motion of which the hon. Baronet (Sir B. Hall) gave notice when they were in power for the extension of the tax to all property whatsoever in that country. He therefore thought that if the Irish Members succeeded in ousting the present Government, they would not benefit Ireland so far as the income tax was concerned. This Motion would be a good test of their opinions on the subject. They all knew that at the last election every Liberal Irish Member felt himself bound to do his best to turn out the Government, which by their inflammatory placards, had raised the disturbances at Stockport, which were used as a war cry during the Irish elections. He trusted such scenes as occurred at Six-mile Bridge and elsewhere, in consequence, would never be seen again. But if they were to form alliance with the Members of that Government, after they had done all they could to put them out of power, and prevent their exciting agitation and religious discord in Ireland, the most simple peasant would be puzzled what to think of his representatives, or to explain the conduct of those who professed to be the leaders of public opinion in Ireland. Not very long ago an hon. Gentleman, who from his hereditary descent could not be otherwise than a patriotic man and a friend to Ireland— he meant Mr. H. Grattan—was turned out of his seat for Meath for having voted for the Arms Act, under the administration of the Earl of Clarendon; and yet the present Member for Meath, his successor, was moving heaven and earth at present to restore to power a Government whose constant pastime had been to give Ireland Coercion Bills, and who, when last in power, had threatened the priests, who were really the best guardians of the public peace. There were three acts by which the late Government were constantly irritating the Irish people, and which showed that they did not understand the spirit in which a Catholic people ought to be legislated for. These points were the inquiry into Maynooth, which they encouraged; the inspection of convents, which their followers insisted on; and the prosecution of the priests, as at Six-mile Bridge. [Cries of "Question!"] He was coming to the question. He wished to show why he could not join in voting for an Amendment, the object of which was to turn out the Government, and restore to power an Administration that would not do justice to the feelings of the country, or legislate for Ireland in a spirit that a Catholic country should be legislated for. He did not vote for the Amendment of the hon. Baronet, because he was opposed to the object its supporters had in view; but it did not follow that he accepted the propositions of the Budget. On the contrary, with regard to the extension of the income tax to Ireland, there was evidence enough to show that a great part of the country was in such a state of distress that it was not able to bear any further load of taxation. He did not wish to exempt any class able to meet taxation, nor would he say but that in Ulster and parts of the south they were able to pay taxes as well as in many parts of England; but he contended that the country was only in a state of convalescence, and not able to undergo such a heavy infliction so soon after the sufferings of the famine. It was said, he knew, that Ireland did not pay a fair share of the national burdens, because she did not pay the assessed taxes. But it was proved by a return which had been moved for by the hon. Member for the University of Dublin, that while the poor-rates, county rates, and similar taxes in England amounted to 2s. 4¼d. in the pound, in Ireland the same taxes amounted to 3s. 7¼d. in the pound, being a difference of 1s. 3d. against Ireland as compared with England. Even in England an income tax when brought to bear upon small trades was a most unadvisable measure, and in resisting its application to Ireland he had no object but to avert the tax from those in that country who would be crushed by this addition to a burden which they at present could hardly bear. He admitted that Belfast and some other towns were as able to pay the tax as any part of England; but that was by no means true of the greater portion of the island, and he was sure that in the south and west it would not only retard the slowly advancing prosperity, but it would possibly throw them back, and would give an additional spur to the emigration which was now going on, and which ought to frighten any Government that looked to the welfare of the people. In the south and west of Ireland the emigration was of the most mischievous kind, for it consisted for the most part of artisans and traders; and if the tax was laid upon all who possessed an income of 100l. a year, it would give a considerable additional spur to their emigration. He trusted, therefore, that the Government would think it worth their while to listen to him, or to those Irish Members who might follow him, and who were abler than he was to explain the condition of the people. His only object was to do as much good to Ireland as he could. He approved of all the rest of the Budget except this portion. If the tax were to be imposed upon Ireland, he thought it ought to be done wisely, mildly, and by degrees. He had no doubt the time would come when Ireland would be able to bear the tax; all he said was that that time had not come yet, and he would therefore move his Amendment, that the words "Great Britain" be introduced into the Resolution instead of the words "United Kingdom."

Amendment proposed— In line 6, to leave out the words 'United Kingdom,' in order to insert the words 'Great Britain,' instead thereof.

Question proposed, "That the words 'United Kingdom' stand part of the proposed Resolution."

COLONEL DUNNE

said, he certainly was surprised at the course the hon. Gentleman had taken; for if his object was to prevent the infliction of the income tax on Ireland, he had unfortunately taken care to miss the only opportunity of carrying out his professed object by voting the other night in the majority, and had now taken a course in which he must be aware he could scarcely succeed. The result of the late division had been caused by those who, like the hon. Member, had voted against the conclusions to which their own reasoning led them. For his own part, he (Colonel Dunne) objected to the whole Budget, and should have voted against it, whether it had contained the income tax or not; but those who, like the hon. Member, only objected to the extension of the income tax to Ireland should surely have felt themselves especially bound to vote against the tax when the question was directly brought before them. Had all the Members connected with Ireland united together in opposition to the Government on that Motion, he was of opinion they would have beaten the Budget, and prevented its infliction upon their country. But now he thought the Motion of the hon. Gentleman was really futile, though of course if pressed to a division he should vote for it; but for his part he was inclined to walk out of the House without recording his vote at all, but that he knew his conduct would be exposed to misconstruction. People out of doors did not understand these manoeuvres, and, therefore, if the hon. Gentleman divided the House, he would divide with him, though he anticipated nothing from his Motion. With regard to the tax itself, he would not go into any argument now, because he had already placed on the books notice of his intention to move for a Committee on the financial relations of the two countries, when he hoped to be able to prove that Ireland was already taxed to its fair amount. That was a fair and a reasonable proposition. If they gave him his Committee, and if he did not prove his point, then he would allow them to tax Ireland as much as they pleased. As the right hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) had said, the same tax imposed upon countries in a different position—on a rich country and a poor country—could not be considered as equal. The defenders of the Government had certainly appeared in a peculiar position. The hon. Member who had just sat down had made an admirable argument to prove that he ought to have voted against the Budget. The hon. Member for Carlow (Mr. J. Ball) had made a speech which he said he hoped would be "for the information and satisfaction of his constituents." It certainly might be for their "information," but scarcely could be for their "satisfaction." And the hon. Member for Cork (Mr. Serjeant Murphy) plainly said that in his opinion the retention of the present Government in office was well worth 250,000l. to Ireland. He did not believe that they were worth so much. The remission of the consolidated annuities bad been pressed upon them as a reason for gratitude to the Government; but that remission had been recommended by a Committee of which Lord Derby was a member. The late Government had only proposed to lay the income tax on the Irish fundholder; not to lay it on the land. He (Colonel Dunne) would ask the hon. Member (Mr. Lawless), who appeared anxious to know why Irish Liberal Members voted against the Government—he would ask the hon. Member why he voted with them? With what section of the party opposite did the hon. Gentleman sympathise? Was it with the old Whigs? or the new Conservatives led by the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer? or their Radical allies with the right hon. Baronet the Chief Commissioner of Woods and Works at their head? The Irish Members who opposed the Budget of the present Government did so because they believed the Budget of the late Government was far better for Ireland. Indeed, there had never been anything worse for Ireland than the Budget before the House. The Chancellor of the Exchequer was obliged to admit that the remission of the consolidated annuities was required by justice. Yet the right hon. Gentleman proposed to remit them only on an equivalent, though he had promised to deal with them apart from financial considerations. There was no gratitude due to the right hon. Gentleman, then, on that account. What he professed to remit with one hand, he reimposed with another. It would have been impossible to enforce the Labour Rate Act. It had been condemned by the Committee of the Lords. The annuities never could have been levied. Yet in remitting them the right hon. Gentleman imposed an equivalent in the shape of an additional taxation. But the truth was that the "equivalent" was unfair; the annuities at the end of seven years could only amount to 275,000l., so that Ireland, after all, was only relieved from something above a quarter of a million a year. And then the fresh taxes imposed amounted to 900,000l. In truth, then, the Government were about to impose a million and a half of fresh taxation on Ireland. There was an important consideration as to the relative burden of taxation in the two countries. In England taxation ultimately returned to the pockets of the people in some shape or other; but in Ireland whatever was paid in that way was withdrawn from the country and never returned to it. Not less than 127,000,000l. had thus been taken out of Ireland since 1818, and thus it was that the country was constantly kept poor. Ireland was ready to bear a fair and equal burden of taxation, and he was willing to go before an English Committee to prove that the burden of taxation was not fair and equal. As to the Amendment before the House, he repeated it was ill-timed. If intended in a spirit of repentance, he hoped the people of Ireland would accept it; but he begged the hon. Member for the future to remember that it was best to bring forward a proposition when it was likely to succeed, rather than when it was certain to fail.

MR. VINCENT SCULLY

said: Sir, I shall endeavour to imitate the example of the hon. and gallant Member who has just sat down, and to discuss this question upon the figures, with a view to determine which is the best course to adopt for the benefit of our common country. But, Sir, I will not, as he has done, narrow the question before us to a mere consideration of the principle of an income tax, and shall en- deavour to arrive at a true conclusion by balancing both sides of the account, not in order to ascertain what is best for our own individual selves, but what is most advantageous for the whole people of Ireland. It appears to me that I am fairly stating the position of the hon. and gallant Member, when I say that his main ground of objection to the proposed Budget is, that though something is given to Ireland, yet, that it is not an equivalent for the imposition of the income tax. If the hon. Member were of opinion the poorer classes in Ireland would be benefited by the proposed remissions, he would, no doubt, be now prepared to charge his wealthier fellow-countrymen with an income tax. Upon a former occasion, and before he had allied himself with his present associates, the hon. Member acted on that view; for, on reference to Hansard, I find that, in March, 1849, he and many of the party with whom he is now acting voted for an Amendment proposed by Major Blackall in these terms:— That an auxiliary fund, for the relief of the extraordinary distress in Ireland, be raised by a rate, not exceeding sixpence in the pound, to be levied upon all property and income in Ireland, above the annual value of 150l." —[3 Hansard, ciii. 198.]

COLONEL DUNNE

I did not vote on that Motion.

MR. VINCENT SCULLY

Of course the hon. Member is the best judge as to his own vote. In the division list upon that Motion, I find also, in favour of it the names of Mr. Napier, Messrs. Spooner and Newdegate, Lord Bernard, Mr. Conolly, Sir F. Thesiger, and of several hon. Members of the Conservative party. Their votes upon that Motion prove that, in their opinions, the occasion might arise when it would be for the general benefit of Ireland to accept the imposition of an income tax. Again, I find that a similar Motion was brought forward by the hon. Member for Kerry (Mr. Herbert), in April, 1849. Upon that occasion also, it will be found that in consideration of the miserable sum of 100,000l. many of the party opposite supported the Motion for imposing an income tax on Ireland. And here, Sir, I may observe that the recognised leader of that party came forward and made a very strong speech in support of that Motion. Among other observations then made by the right hon. Member for Buckinghamshire (Mr. Disraeli) he stated— In the difficult position in which we are placed, I feel that the income tax will not press on the small farmers, and that a rate in aid will do so. This is a consideration which ought to weigh, perhaps, with all hon. Members; but I feel that it ought at all events to have a paramount influence with us, who deplore the adoption by this House of that fatal policy of which the small farmers are now the victims. There are other reasons why I prefer an income tax: I am also in favour of an income tax rather than a rate in aid, for this reason, that it will be imposed on all species of property."—[3 Hansard, civ. 516.] Now, Sir, I cannot state that I am in favour of the imposition of an income tax upon Ireland, for the reason that it will be imposed on all species of property, but because the struggling farmers of that country will be benefited by the remission of the consolidated annuities. There is no man more averse than I am to the extension of an income tax to Ireland if it could possibly be avoided. But the question is one of pounds, shillings and pence, and in considering it together, my honourable Colleague and myself, who rank among our constituents many small farmers subject to heavy charges on account of the consolidated annuities, have endeavoured to form our conclusion without any reference whatever to our own personal interests. I know for myself, Sir, that at my first election in March, 1852, I stated distinctly in my address to the electors of Cork, that I would exert myself by every means in my power to get rid of the consolidated annuities, which pressed so heavily upon them. I have felt called upon now to fulfil that pledge. The whole question of the income tax for Ireland, as well as for England, turns upon the incidence of taxation— whether it should fall more heavily upon the rich than upon the poorer classes; and if I pronounce myself ready to accept an income tax for Ireland, I do so because I am thereby enabling the Government of the day to remove the incidence of taxation from the shoulders of the poorer man to those of his more wealthy neighbours. It was for a similar reason that the income tax was introduced into England in the year 1842, in order to enable the Government of Sir Robert Peel to pass measures which would have the effect of benefiting the masses of the people, and of increasing their means to purchase clothing and food. And here let me ask whether if the working classes of England are enabled to purchase more food and more clothing, and in particular to increase their woollen raiment, and become larger consumers of corn, of butter, and of butcher's meat, will not any measure that tends to effect that object, also be the means of bringing large sums into the pockets of the farmers and shopkeepers of Ireland? Why, I can remember, a few years ago, before the people of Ireland were so well able to pay for clothing, or food, as they now are, that I was selling wool at about 11s. a stone; whereas, I expect in a few weeks, after the shearing season, to realise at least 23s. 6d. per stone. And for the same reason, the farmers of Ireland are at present obtaining large prices for butter, pork, beef, and mutton, which are now consumed in larger quantities by the people of England, though, I am sorry to say that, as yet, but a small proportion of those articles is consumed by my own countrymen. I differ, therefore, from the position of the hon. and gallant Member for Portarlington, that changes in the incidence of taxation which are beneficial to the people of England, may not also benefit the people of Ireland. But while I am by no means inclined to dispute the accuracy of the figures advanced by hon. Gentlemen who adopt an opposite view of the case, I still cannot help observing that in arguing the question they have commenced their chronology before the Act of Union, but have, one and all, invariably stopped short as soon as they came down to the consolidated annuities. True it is that England is making a prodigiously fine bargain—true it is that we are to be charged with 480,000l. a year for seven years, which by the end of that time will have realised more than 3,000,000l.—and true it is that the spirit duties, taken at twenty years' purchase, will make up an additional sum of about 4,000,000l. These sums, therefore, together with some other items, will realise for the English Exchequer a sum exceeding 8,000,000l. sterling. But then, Sir, although all this may be perfectly true, it does not follow that because the arrangement is for the benefit of England, that it may not also benefit the people of Ireland. For though the Imperial Exchequer may be thereby placed in the position of receiving fully double the amount of a disputed debt, still, if it is proposed as a dire alternative to the representatives of Ireland, either to submit to the income tax, or to reject it altogether, and pay the consolidated charges, there can be little doubt that the poorer classes would not be benefited by adopting the latter course. And let me remind hon. Gentlemen opposite, that this is a question upon which we cannot be said to have the option in our own hands. I confess that when the present Budget was first presented to this House by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on last Monday fortnight, I felt great difficulty in solving the problem placed before me; and to enable me to judge the question more clearly and dispassionately, I went on the following day to Ireland in order to meditate over the matter. I returned here on Tuesday last, and upon the following day, whilst attending the Committee-room on the Cork and Bandon Railway, I heard that in an adjoining apartment there were then assembled some Irish representatives, who, like their Scottish brethren, had met together in order to consult upon the proposed Budget, and decide on the best course to be taken for the benefit of this country. I considered it right to join that meeting, and upon doing so found, in anxious deliberation, some five-and-twenty Gentlemen, each of whom had a strong personal interest in the question at issue—men who belonged to and had property in Ireland, and not who had merely crossed over from England, to take upon themselves the representation of Ireland, and assume a position there like some of the hon. Members opposite, such as the Members for Dundalk, and one of the Members for each of the counties of Meath, Kilkenny, and Sligo, who though, no doubt, entertaining conscientious convictions upon the subject, had, nevertheless, not the same material interest at stake, or personal acquaintance with the details, to enable them to judge of it in all its practical bearings. Well, Sir, I participated in the discussions which took place at that meeting, and I am quite prepared to state now the reasons which I then put forward. For, Sir, it was an open meeting, and I wish nothing to remain secret in this or any other proceedings with which I may become connected. The people of Ireland are quick, but they are also shrewd and intelligent. I care not what they may think for the passing moment, but I look to what will be their opinion when they thoroughly understand the whole of the question. I came here to represent my constituents—my business is to study carefully this and all other questions affecting their material interests, and they rely upon me to perform my duty towards them. Though I quite admit that the great county of Cork, which produces the ablest men in Ireland, possesses within its borders many more competent persons than myself to act as their representative, still I conceive that, at a distance from the spot, they do not possess equal means of ascertaining what is the most advantageous course to be adopted on such an occasion as the present. In regard to the question before us, I have felt it my duty to examine carefully all the figures bearing upon it, and with the permission of the House I will state a few results; and I think it will be made evident that so far, at least, as the tenant farmers of Cork are concerned, their representatives have truly and faithfully represented their best interests by the course we have pursued. For my own part, I am quite prepared, at any moment, to render an account to any hundred of my constituents, from any part of the county which I have the honour to represent, and to demonstrate to them collectively or individually that their interests have been materially served by the course I have taken, in preferring to obtain for them a remission of the consolidated charges, instead of endeavouring to protect my own personal and real estate from the imposition of an income tax. Were I to have adopted a contrary course, I should, indeed, have a very selfish account to render if taken to task by the tenant farmers of Cork. No; the course which I had taken was, to propose at the meeting of Irish Members that, as the best means of doing practical good for Ireland, we should wait upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer to protest firmly against at present extending the income tax to Ireland—and, at the same time, suggest that the consolidated annuities and all arrears should be remitted, and that if the income tax were to be imposed on Ireland, it should be confined to those main sources of income which belong to the more opulent classes, and do not involve inquisitorial inquiries or unproductive expense—namely: public funds, public salaries, shares in public companies, landlords' rents, according to Mr. Griffith's public valuation, with due deductions for incumbrancers, annuitants, and rentchargers, who should also bear their proportion of the tax. Well, a resolution to that effect was adopted by the meeting, and on the following day we had a long interview with the Chancellor of the Exchequer, upon whom we pressed our views, and supported them with the strongest arguments we were able to urge. It is scarcely necessary for me to observe that we were received with the utmost courtesy by the right hon. Gentleman, who entered into a discussion of the suggestions we had made; but I conceive it is not unlikely that had our numbers been more formidable than they were, we might be now in a position to anticipate even more satisfactory terms than those which we have good reason to expect. We believe that our remonstrances upon that occasion will lead to some material modifications in the mode of assessing the tax on Ireland. We trust we shall receive that concession to which my Colleague has alluded, namely, that the Irish farmer shall be rated at one-third instead of one-half of his annual rent, and that the rent and income of land, as regards both landlord and tenant, shall be assessed upon Mr. Griffith's public valuation, without entering into any inquisitorial inquiries on the subject. We expect also, that in regard to tradesmen and shopkeepers, they will be assessed without instituting such inquiries, and by giving them the option to adopt as a measure of their assessment some multiple of the poor-rate valuation of their premises. We entertain no doubt in regard to those clergymen whose income depends on mere voluntary contributions, that if they are legally liable to any income tax, their own returns, either personally or through their ecclesiastical superior, will be adopted as correct, and that they will be permitted to certify them to some central authority, and not to any local commissioners. Indeed, we are assured that whatever inquiries may be necessary shall be so conducted as to be as little inquisitorial as possible. We also strongly urged upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and urged afterwards on the Chief Secretary for Ireland, that if they could not induce their Government to adopt our suggestion of confining the income tax in Ireland to realised property, they should consent that the standard of taxation upon precarious incomes, and particularly in regard to clergymen of all denominations, should be raised to a higher figure than 100l. a year. Now, Sir, as a representative of the county of Cork, returned by its tenant farmers, I will take a practical view of their interests in this question, and of the course which my Colleague and I have considered it our duty to pursue. I will assume that one hundred of our constituents are assembled before us in any part of that county, and that I am accounting with them for my conduct on this occasion, I would say to them—"There is probably not one among you who does not derive a very substantial benefit during a period of forty years by the remission of the consolidated annuities. Those among you who hold farms worth 200l. a year and upwards are, probably, not ten in number."[Mr. E.B. ROCHE: Not five.] My hon. Colleague, who knows the county of Cork better than I do, says there would not be five of that class. But taking the number so high as ten, I would say to those ten constituents, "There are, perhaps, five among you whose farms are rated at less than 300l a year. By one of the concessions which I have been instrumental in obtaining from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, you will be exempted altogether from income tax." To the remaining five constituents, who might, possibly, occupy farms worth 300l. a year or upwards, I would state, "You have also been materially benefited by some of the terms which we expect to obtain; for you will have the option of being rated according to a public valuation, and will be charged on only one-third instead of, as in England, one-half of a fair occupation rent." To the few wealthier constituents—not one per cent on the entire—I would say, "If you are subjected to an income tax you can afford to pay it, and must, like myself, submit to do so for the benefit of your poorer neighbours." To the tradesmen and shopkeepers in the smaller towns I might state, "You have, probably, a farm which is relieved from the consolidated charges; the increased prosperity of the adjoining district will bring you increased employment and custom far more than an equivalent for your small amount of income tax; and, at all events, I exerted myself to the utmost in order to exempt you altogether from the tax, and expect to succeed in protecting you from any vexatious inquiries, by allowing you the option of being assessed upon a multiple of your poor-law valuation." To English Gentlemen representing Irish constituencies, and having no personal interest in Irish matters, the modifications which I have referred to, and others of a similar nature which we hope to obtain, may appear of little practical moment; but let me assure them, as one who has an interest in the Irish soil, that the whole question will be viewed in a very different aspect by the sensible farmers of my country. Well, we trust also that all arrears of the consolidated annuities, as well as the future annuities, will also be remitted; and we believe that the very strongest reasons exist why the small tradesman and shopkeeper ought not to be rated to the income tax—at least that the mode of assessment shall be as free from inquisitorial inquiries as possible; above all, we confidently hope that the standard of taxation will be raised, particu- larly as to clergymen of all denominations —Catholic, Presbyterian, and Protestant. [Mr. LUCAS: Oh, oh!] I trust, Sir, that the hon. Member for Meath will agree in considering that, in late years, the Protestant clergy of Ireland have been taxed most heavily, through the deduction for poor-rates; and that the incomes of the Catholic and Presbyterian clergymen have been also most grievously reduced, and that, in particular, the Catholic priest of Ireland should not be required to contribute towards the support of a State from which he has never derived any sort of assistance or suport. I own, however, that notwithstanding these concessions, I would still desire that any income tax in Ireland should be confined to realised property, and not extended to precarious incomes—in other words, that it should not include what is familiarly known as Schedule D in England. Except as an inevitable alternative, I feel the greatest possible objection to any sort of income tax, and especially to its imposition upon professions and trades. But when I come to discuss the matter with English Members, they meet me with the case of Belfast. They say to me—"Here is a gentleman with 10,000l. a-year derived from his trade. In Manchester you impose an income tax upon him. Trade between Manchester and Belfast is running a very close race, and but a very small difference will turn the scale either way: by exempting the Belfast merchant from the income tax, you would drive us out of the market —we shall never consent to that." To such a statement I have but one answer to make—that Belfast is the exceptional case, and that the precarious incomes of the small traders in other parts of Ireland should not be taxed merely in order to catch the rich merchants of Belfast in the common net. The alternative, however, which has been presented to me is either to reject the Budget altogether, and remain subject to the consolidated charges, or to obtain the remission of these charges by accepting the income tax with such reasonable modifications as can be obtained. To solve this problem satisfactorily, it is necessary to consider a few figures. And to begin with the union of Kanturk, in the county of Cork: in that union the annuity charged upon the valuation is 6d. in the pound; in Bantry it is 1s. 4½d.; in Dunmanway 10d.; in Skibbereen 1s. 1d.; in Skull 1s. 6d.; in Youg-hall 7d. In the county of Mayo, in the union of Ballina, the annuity is 1s. 2d. in the pound; in Castlebar 1s. 7d.; in Swing-ford it is 1s. 6d.; and in Newport and Westport 2s. in the pound. And yet, with such facts and figures before him, one of the representatives of Mayo, who deals more in figures of speech than in figures of arithmetic, has the hardihood to state to those representatives of agricultural constituencies who may desire to relieve such poverty-stricken localities, that when next we go before our constituents, we shall be all "shaking in our shoes." Now, Sir, if I can judge aright the interests and feelings of the great constituency which I have the honour to represent, I would strongly admonish the hon. Gentleman, should he think proper to present himself in the county of Cork, to keep very clear of those towns which are contiguous to the sea coast or deep rivers. And, Sir, whilst tendering him the best protection in my power, I would, in proof of those feelings, remind him of the Kanturk meeting, the report of which he will find in the columns of the Cork Examiner, a newspaper known to be most hostile to my views. But some hon. Gentleman opposite appear to prefer to bring back into office the Stockport and Six-mile Bridge Administration, rather than accept for the farmers of Ireland a remission of the consolidated annuities, coupled with an income tax upon the more affluent classes. Here is one of the Members for Mayo, whose own constituents will, perhaps, be more benefited by the remission of the consolidated annuities than those of any other portion of Ireland, coming forward and taunting hon. Gentlemen who coincide in the views which I have expressed with betraying the interests of the people of Ireland. Whatever Belfast may lose, there can be no doubt that Mayo will be an immense gainer by the change; and, therefore, it was not a matter of surprise that the hon. Member for that county came forward the other night to make a most eloquent appeal in favour of the remission of the annuities. [Mr. MOORE was understood to dissent.] Well, if the hon. Gentleman will not allow that his appeal was "most eloquent," it must be his characteristic modesty which induces him to regard so unfavourably his own patriotic efforts. Passing now from Mayo to the county of Clare, I find that Ennis Union is assessed at 1s. 7d. in the pound; Ennistymon, 2s. 6½d.; Kildysart, 2s. 6d.; Kilrush, 2s. 0½d.; Scariff, 2s. 2½d.; and Tulla, 1s. 10d. It appears that the present valuations of all the unions in the county of Clare amount to a sum of 218,877l., charged upon which is a sum of 783,537l. spread over a period of forty years, being nearly 20,000l. a year, or little leas than 2s. in the pound. That is the average poundage of the entire county; but some of its electoral divisions and town-lands, as well as many other localities in Ireland, are subject to a much higher rate of poundage. Now, I put it to this House, how was it possible for me to resist the force of these figures? Again, take the county of Galway, one of whose representatives goes into one lobby, and the other into another. But let us see which is in the right. Here are two hon. Members, each deeply interested in the soil of Ireland, and neither of whom, I am perfectly convinced, would willingly give a vote calculated to retard the prosperity of their country; here they are imitating the example of the two Members for the city of Galway, and running asunder on this question. Now I must remind one of those Gentlemen that in a portion of that county, a district in which, as I am personally aware, he received at the last election very great support—I mean the district of Con-nemara—-the Union of Otighterard is subject to annuities which average 2s. 8d. in the pound for 40 years, and that of Clifden 2s. 6d. in the pound. But why weary the House with further details? If I go into Kerry, Sligo, Limerick, Tipperary, and other counties, I find numerous instances to the same effect. There can be no doubt that a loud though fruitless agitation has been got up in some parts of Ireland; but, nevertheless, I have great faith in the good sense of my countrymen; and being, as I know them, not only a quick but also an intelligent people, I feel assured that all that is required in order to bring them to a proper state of feeling on the subject is, that the facts and figures bearing upon it shall be properly understood. Sir, I do not pretend to set myself up as "a leader" of the people of Ireland, but neither shall I ever mislead them. In such places as Dublin, for instance, they have been running a little wild on this question of an income tax. I have myself a house there upon which I will have to pay income tax, and I shall be no gainer anywhere by its imposition. It is, in my opinion, materially for the benefit of all the great towns in Ireland that the rural districts shall be in a prosperous state. Indirectly, therefore, those towns will feel the good effects from a remission of the consolidated charges; directly, indeed, such cities as Dublin, Belfast, and Cork, will gain but little by the remission, whilst their inhabitants will bear a large proportion of income tax, and are consequently averse to having it imposed upon them. In the union of Dublin (South) the consolidated annuity is only one halfpenny, and in that of Dublin (North) less than one halfpenny in the pound, and in each case for only ten years. In Cork Union the annuity is 2¼d. in the pound for twenty years, whilst in Belfast Union it is 1½d. in the pound, and only for five years. I have already stated that one of the concessions which we have reason to anticipate is the total remission of all arrears of the annuities, amounting in the whole to about 272,812l. Of that large arrear there is due by the Union of Belfast only the sum of one halfpenny. In most other Unions of Ireland there is about one year's annuity due. Such is the case throughout the county of Cork; also in the most impoverished Unions of Clare, Galway, and Kerry. But when we look at Mayo, we find that in most of its Unions, there is considerably more than one year's arrear due. Of all the counties in Ireland Mayo will probably be the most benefited by the remission of these annuities, most benefited by the additional concession remitting the arrears, and least affected by any income tax. Yet we find one of its Members, who was recently the most forward in arguing the remission of these annuities, now taking the very contrary course. I feel no doubt whatever that the recent Motion of that hon. Member in regard to those annuities—a Motion to which I felt bound to give my best support—was the step which, above all others, has led to the imposition of the income tax on Ireland by way of exchange for those annuities. For though that Motion was defeated by an English majority, it was impossible for any Government to disregard the division which took place upon it—a division upon which all the Irish Members who voted on it were found in the minority, except one, and that one a Member of the Government, and whose opinions had been long since pledged to the proposed remission. Well, Sir, that vote having been given by the Irish Members of this House, it became, I conceive, necessary for the Government to deal with those annuities, and having deeided on remitting them in part, they found it expedient to get rid of them altogether. In my speech upon that occa- sion I mentioned one strong reason for adopting that course. A great difficulty in conducting the poor-law system in Ireland arises from the multiplicity of accounts, there being a separate account requisite for each of 2,178 electoral divisions. It appears from the Lords' Report respecting the consolidated annuities, that, being assessed upon townlands, their collection would involve the keeping of no less than 41,275 distinct accounts during a period of forty years. The numerous inconveniences and frauds to which these accounts would necessarily give rise, formed always in my mind a conclusive argument for a total, instead of a mere partial, remission. Let all these matters be properly understood throughout Ireland, and I feel satisfied that the hon. Member will soon discover that even his own constituents of Mayo will not be carried away after his figures of rhetoric to desert those of arithmetic. In regard to the county of Cork, the meeting at Kanturk, and other proofs which I could produce, demonstrate that my countrymen are not so easily duped and befooled as some Englishmen may suppose. As for myself, I may perhaps be permitted to observe, that, whilst I become subject to an income tax, I shall personally be but little benefited by the remission of the consolidated annuities, because it so happens that they press very lightly upon any property of mine. The great grievance of an income tax arises from its inquisitorial nature; and were it divested of that character by being confined to realised property, I should not have hesitated to assent at once to its extension to Ireland. In conjunction with some of the Irish Members, I have done everything in my power to confine its operation, and to obtain as many useful modifications as it was possible to procure. Had all the Irish Members adopted the same prudential course, it is not improbable that we might have succeeded in getting concessions even more valuable than those we expect to obtain. But for the inquisitorial character of the tax, I, for one, should not object to the wealthier classes of Ireland being taxed upon an equal footing with those of Ireland and Scotland— [Mr. FAGAN: Hear!]—and I am glad to find from that cheer of the hon. Member for Cork, that he concurs with me in this view. It is, I admit, difficult to maintain that the manufacturer of Manchester is to be subject to the tax, whilst the wealthy merchant of Belfast is exempt from it. But I will not pledge myself against tak- ing an active part in that agitation which the people of England are so well inclined to institute, in order to get rid of all the inquisitorial portions of the income tax; and if I mistake not the motives of many English Members, their anxiety to extend this tax to Ireland, arises in a great measure from a feeling that we are a very active and troublesome people, and that as soon as we are all in the same boat with the people of England, we shall agitate along with them to remove all obnoxious portions of the tax. The hon. Member for Birmingham (Mr. Muntz), who has always opposed an income tax in any form, has not hesitated to inform me that he will vote to extend the income tax to Ireland, in order that he may induce us hereafter to aid in abolishing it altogether. And, Sir, when we are subject to equal taxation with England and Scotland, we shall be in a better condition to claim the benefit of equal laws, and that Irishmen shall be placed on the same footing as Englishmen all over the empire. We can then, also, urge with better effect that the grievous inequality of an Established Church shall no longer be forced upon the Catholics or Presbyterians of Ireland. In giving my vote the other evening, I gave it in perfect good faith as it was understood in this House, and also by the people of Ireland— namely, as accepting an income tax for that country in lieu of the consolidated annuities, there being no other alternative proposed for our consideration. I must state that I made my election after much hesitation and with great reluctance, and not until after I had stood out for every modification which it was possible to obtain. But having made that election bonâ fide, I shall now abide by it; and whilst giving every credit to the hon. Member for Clonmel for his Amendment, which proposes to exempt Ireland altogether from any income tax, I think the straightforward and manly course for me to pursue, is to record my vote against that Amendment, and not run away from it by leaving the House before it divides. It is obvious to every one that there will be a large majority against that Amendment; and I shall not vote for it, merely in order to catch, for a time, a little of the popularis aura in Ireland. At the same time I quite approve of taking a division on that Amendment, in order to exhibit the insincerity of the Conservative Gentlemen opposite, in whose professions I repose no trust. Whilst in office they attempted to introduce the income tax into Ireland. They made no offer whatever to remit any portion of the consolidated charges, but occupied themselves with proclaiming and dragooning the Catholics of these countries at Stockport and Six-mile Bridge. The consolidated annuities are 245,000l. a year, and amount altogether to over 7,000,000l. I know we are justly entitled to a remission of 2,000,000l. sterling, and I urged that view upon the notice of the hon. Member for Mayo. I feel the less difficulty in voting against the present Amendment, because I observe that the hon. Member for Ennis (Mr. Fitzgerald) has given notice of another Amendment which meets precisely my views, by proposing to limit the operation of the income tax in Ireland to realised property, and to exclude from its effect all precarious incomes. I shall vote for that Amendment when brought before the House, and can do so with perfect consistency with the views I have hitherto urged. I repeat again, that I feel the greatest possible aversion to the imposition of an income tax, but I found it was absolutely inevitable. For the last ten days the certainty of the Budget being carried by a large majority was well known in a quarter much better informed than we usually are in this House—I mean on the Stock Exchange of the City of London. Having made every inquiry, both in the House and out of it, I came to the clear conviction that it was no longer possible for Irish Members to oppose effectually the extension of the income tax to their country—-that the time was come when its introduction there was quite inevitable, or, in classical phrase— Venit summa dies et ineluctabile tempus. Therefore, Sir, it was that, in conjunction with some thirty other Members for Irish constituencies, we took up the course of endeavouring to make the best terms we could for our country. And for acting in this manner I think, that, so far from having our acts disparaged, or our motives impugned, we are justly entitled to the best thanks of our constituents, and of the whole Irish people. Indeed, if pieces of plate were going in these bad times, we should have every right to expect to receive compliments of that nature from the gratitude of those whom we shall have served by our exertions, in obtaining a remission of the arrears of annuities and modifications of the income tax. I shall trespass no longer on the indulgence of the House; but I think I have stated enough to demonstrate that it would have been utterly impossible for my hon. Colleague or myself to have honestly rejected a proposition which transfers the incidence of taxation to the shoulders of the rich man from those of his poorer neighbours—-a scheme which, so far as the Irish tenant farmers are concerned, may be aptly termed the Farmer's Budget.

MR. GAVAN DUFFY

said, he had the same objection to take part in the present debate as that stated by the hon. and gallant Member for Portarlington (Colonel Dunne), and for precisely the same reason —that he detested sham battles. If the hon. Member for Clonmel (Mr. Lawless) had come down to the House on Monday night in opposition to the Government, when this identical question was raised, he (Mr. Duffy) would have been most happy to have joined him in giving effect to the opinions he now expressed. He confessed that his only motive for supporting the Amendment of the hon. Gentleman on the present occasion was the apprehension of his conduct being misunderstood outside of the House. The hon. Member, in stating the grounds of his vote on Monday night, said, first, that he could not think of going into the same lobby with men who had slandered the convents and nunneries of Ireland. Did the hon. Gentleman think that they, on his (Mr. Duffy's) side of the House were blind, and could not see that he who made this objection sat within one of the hon. Member for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond), and voted in the same lobby with that hon. Gentleman—the only man in the House who spoke offensively of nunneries. The next reason given for the hon. Member's vote was his unwillingness to divide with a party who were in favour of Coercion Bills for Ireland. The hon. Member had, however, forgotten that he was supporting that political party who were, on a memorable occasion, styled "base, bloody, and brutal," because they were the authors of a ruthless Coercion Bill for his country. Another reason relied on by the hon. Member was, his unwillingness to vote on the same side as those who had encouraged the Stockport rioters; but it appears he was quite content to give his support to the authors of the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill. But the hon. Member assured the House he was afraid of taking a course that might have the effect of restoring the late Ministers to office. What did this amount to? Why, to this—that his present Motion was a farce: for if not, if he hoped to carry it, he was running at this moment the very risk he refused to take on Monday. When the hon. Member remarked that it was very hard for the Irish peasantry to understand the conduct of their representatives, he (Mr. Duffy) would tell him that he might safely give them credit for greater sagacity; there was no fear but they would perfectly understand the reason of the hon. Member's Motion on the present occasion. The Member for Clonmel appealed to his family connexions. He (Mr. Duffy) confessed that that allusion stopped his mouth, for he knew the hon. Gentleman to be the son of one of the best men in Ireland, and for that reason he would proceed further on this subject. The hon. and learned Member for Cork, who followed the hon. Member for Clonmel, declared that he had great objections to the income tax, as it was proposed to extend it to Ireland, and that having pressed those objections upon the Chancellor of the Exchequer without receiving the slightest satisfaction from the right hon. Gentleman, he had—done what? —come down to the House and voted with the Chancellor in favour of the measure. The hon. and learned Member told them that Cork had produced some of the ablest men in Ireland. The Colleague of the hon. and learned Member (Mr. Edmund B. Roche) gave them the other night a sample of Cork logic. That hon. Gentleman said, that, having many transactions in this country, and wanting to employ shippers in Cork, he found them unable to compete with the shipowners of Liverpool; and in order to enable the former to compete with the latter, he would vote for putting a new tax upon them—

MR. ROCHE

rose to state that he had said quite the reverse. He stated that he found certain merchants of Cork taking advantage of their being free from taxation, and asking too high a price from him for the transport of goods from Cork to London. How was he to bring that down except by competition, and where was he to get that competition except amongst the shipowners of London and Liverpool? And if he asked them not to tax the shipowner of Cork, and to tax the shipowner of London and Liverpool, he was cutting a stick to lay over his own shoulders.

MR. DUFFY

did not think that he had much misunderstood the hon. Gentleman, for in fact he would put an income tax on the shipowners of Cork, in order to enable them to compete, with the shipowners of London and Liverpool. The hon. and learned Member opposite (Mr. V. Scully) taunted the Irish Members on his (Mr. Duffy's) side of the House, by saying that they had no interest in Ireland. There was one thing certain, that there was a large number of them who had no interest; in Downing-street, and were uninfluenced by any connexions in that quarter. The party with which he acted was composed of men who were distinguished by uprightness of conduct and consistency of purpose —of men who scorned to avow one set of opinions in that House, and another to Ireland. Now, in respect to the application of the income tax in Ireland, he would ask what new reasons had been advanced for the introduction of this new tax to his country? The two reasons given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer amounted to this—that England had never so little need of help from Ireland, and Ireland never had so little to spare her. The late Sir Robert Peel, when he first proposed the income tax for this country, found the finances of England in a most disordered condition, and under circumstances which he then stated, he declined to apply the tax to Ireland. The Chancellor of the Exchequer, on the contrary, had a large surplus in hand, and therefore the right hon. Gentleman felt the necessity of extending this tax to Ireland. The other leg of the right hon. Gentleman's argument was—that in 1842, when the tax was first proposed by Sir Robert Peel, Ireland was more prosperous than she was at present, and England poorer; whereas at this moment England was richer than she had ever been within the memory of man, while Ireland presented the spectacle of a whole population flying away because they were unable to earn their daily bread. The argument, in fact, condensed itself into a sentence; tax Ireland because she was never worse able to bear it; spare England because she grows daily more and more prosperous. But they had a right to ask what was going to be done with this money? The entire half million would be swallowed up in a militia, not one man of whom had been given to Ireland. He trusted the House had not forgotten the fiery eloquence of the noble Viscount (Visct. Palmerston) the Secretary for the Home Department on the subject of a militia for Ireland, when he was doing penance on the Opposition benches. At least, his noble Friend, the leader of this House (Lord John Russell), who was flung out of office by the hurricane, could scarcely have forgotten it. The noble Viscount would not listen patiently to the injustice of depriving Ireland of a militia for her protection. Why should she not be protected as well as England? He could not sufficiently reprove the mean and cowardly spirit in which such an exception was conceived. But he must quote to the House the very words of the noble Viscount:— The whole of the objections of the Government to the formation of a regular militia are founded upon a radical distrust of the people of the United Kingdom. I, Sir, on the contrary, am disposed to confide in the people. But if things have come to this pass—if we have so mean an opinion of our population that we cannot trust our fellow-subjects to defend themselves—it is much better to give up the Bill altogether. But as there is no foundation for this distrust, there is no reason to believe that the people of England would not rally round the national standard. It will not be for the first time that the people of Scotland will have risen up in arms, and have fought the enemies of the United Kingdom. And if it be that we cannot trust the people of Ireland, why, Sir, let us send at once for a Russian force to defend us, or let us have an Austrian force and garrison in London. On the Motion which concluded this speech, the present Chancellor of the Exchequer voted with the noble Viscount, and it did seem to him (Mr. Duffy) a rather intrepid proceeding of the Ministers who made these professions, and forgot to act upon them, to come down to this House and propose an income tax upon Ireland to pay the costs of the militia denied to her. On the mere ground of no value received, she was entitled to refuse this contribution. Another heavy branch of the public expenditure was the Packet service. The Government were going to spend four-fifths of a million sterling upon it; and by way of encouraging Ireland to contribute an income tax, they had refused her an American Packet Station. Government after Government had ventured to declare that Liverpool or Holyhead was more westerly than Galway. But some hon. Gentlemen are astonished that Irish Members should forget the remissions of duty contemplated in the Budget, to increase the comforts of the people. It was cheerful news, certainly, for the struggling traders and professional classes in Ireland, whom the famine had reduced to half their income, that turtle, and anchovies, brocade, jewels, ostrich feathers, and eau de Cologne, might be had at reduced prices. Or, perhaps, they were to find increased comfort in the fact that every Irish trade with any vitality in it was exposed to new competi- tion at the very moment his "colossal engine of finance" was levelled at it. Linens, whisky, hams, eggs, butter—almost everything that Ireland exported— must at the same time meet the double exigency of producing less money and paying more. The most vital objection he had to this proposal was, in fact, that so far from increasing the comforts of the industrious classes, it would press on them with an intolerable weight. He knew to a certainty that it would be cruelly oppressive on a larger class of the best men in Ireland—men who had struggled to exist through the famine in decency, who had endured privations, and made sacrifices to help the starving people, and to preserve their own credit. If this tax were invented to drive them to emigration, it would be admirably fitted for its object. He considered that the whole Budget was conceived in a spirit unduly favourable to England. He believed that the declaration of a great Minister in the House of Commons, eighty years ago, was as true now as it was then. William Pitt said, in reference to finance operations, "The uniform policy of England has been to deprive Ireland of the use of her own resources, and to make her subservient to the interest and opulence of the English people." Now, that was precisely what they were doing at present. His opinion was, that the people of Ireland did not regard this as a question of Ministries. That was an inferior question, as compared with the proposition to extend the income tax to Ireland. There were some men in office at present—he would name one, the present Chief Secretary for Ireland (Sir J. Young)—whom, to eject for any person likely to succeed him, would be anything but a change for the better. That right hon. Gentleman, he believed, meant well to Ireland; and he (Mr. Duffy) should be sorry to see him out of office; but that right hon. Gentleman's holding office, or any one's holding office, should not weigh a moment with him in voting against such a measure as this. The hon. Member then used the following language:—Never did so many Irish Members Vote against any measure as against this: seventy-two Irish Members voted against it—men representing large constituencies, and all kinds of political opinions. I do not know how so many Irish Members have been persuaded to vote in favour of it. Some few of them, I am sure, voted from conscientious motives; but, short as my experience of Parliament has been, I don't think in the worst days of Walpole and the Pelhams more scandalous corruption existed than I have seen with ray own eyes practised upon Irish Members. [Loud cries of "Name, name!"during which the hon. Member made several attempts to proceed with his observations.] If the Chairman tells me, on the part of the House, that it is their wish I should name the persons to whom I have alluded, I shall do so.

MR. VINCENT SCULLY

Sir, I rise to order, and- ask you, as Chairman, whether such language as that which has been used by the hon. Member for New Ross is to be tolerated in this House?

MR. J. BALL

Sir, I move that the words, used by the hon. Member for New Ross be taken down. ["Hear, hear!" "Oh, oh!" "Name, name!"and general confusion.]

MR. GAVAN DUFFY

again essayed to speak, but was met with loud cries of "Name, name!" The hon. Gentleman then repeated what he had before said. If. the Chairman calls upon me to do so, I will name, [Cries of "Order, order!" "Chair, chair!"and great confusion.]

The CHAIRMAN

Does the hon. Member for Carlow mean to press his Motion that the words of the hon. Member for New Ross be taken down?

MR. J. BALL

Certainly, I do.

The CHAIRMAN

What, then, are the words?

MR. J. BALL

I believe, Sir, I am strictly within the rules of the House when I move that the words of the hon. Member for New Ross be taken down. Those words must be fresh in the recollection of hon. Members; and I apprehend that, according to precedent, the clerk at the table should take down those words, on a Motion, being made that he should do so.

Several Irish Members here rose together, and attempted to address the Committee, amid loud cries of "Order, order!" and "Chair, chair!"

The CHAIRMAN

said, he apprehended the House only, and not the Committee, could take notice of the language which had been used by the hon. Member for New Ross; and if the words in question were taken down, it would be his (the Chairman's) duty to report them to the House.

MR. G. H. MOORE

I merely wish to state, that in the debates on the Ecclesiastical Titles Bill a similar Motion was made:—that certain words used by an hon. Member should be taken down—and the Speaker decided that no such Motion could be made.

MR. F. SCULLY

Sir, I wish to correct the statement made by the hon. Member for Mayo. It must be in the recollection of the House that it was not until after the speech of the hon. Member who used the language was concluded, that the Motion was made that the words should be taken down; and I remember that the Speaker declared, that had the hon. Member who made the Motion made it at the time the words were spoken, it would have been competent for the House to entertain it, but not otherwise.

MR. J. BALL

If the hon. Member for New Ross repeats the words they can be taken down. I understood the hon. Member to say that grosser corruption than was over known since the days of Walpole and the Pelhams had been practised upon Irish Members under his own eyes.

The CHAIRMAN

Will the hon. Member for Carlow furnish me with the words said to have been used by the hon. Member for New Ross?

MR. J. BALL

, having handed a written paper to the Chairman, the words attributed to the hon. Member for New Rosa were these: "That the grossest corruption ever practised in the days of Walpole and the Pelhams has been practised, under my own eyes, upon Irish Members in this House."

The CHAIRMAN

I shall put the question, that the words used by the hon. Member for New Ross be taken down. Is it the opinion of this Committee that these words be taken down by the Clerk? [Loud cries of "Aye, aye!"and "No, no!"]

SIR DENHAM NORREYS

said, amidst considerable confusion, that he was an Irish Member, and felt that the aspersions mad "by the hon. Member for New Ross seriously affected the honour of the body to whom both of them belonged: he would, therefore, appeal to the hon. Member to withdraw the words which had given offence, and which, to 3ay the least, were neither Parliamentary nor in good taste,

The CHAIRMAN

Do I understand from the hon. Member for New Ross that these were the words he used:— That the grossest corruption ever practised in the days of Walpole and the Pelhams has been practised under my own eyes upon Irish Members in this House?

MR. GAVAN DUFFY

They are not identically the words, but they are so nearly correct them that I don't quarrel with them.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL

I beg to call to the recollection of the House the circumstances under which the hon. Member used these words, and the manner in which he followed them up. The words, as they have been taken down, appear to me, and I believe to the hon. Gentleman himself, as nearly as possible the words that he used. There was immediately, on this side of the House, a loud cry of "Name, name!" Now, it appears to me that if the hon. Gentleman had meant to make a vague assertion, which he had not the least means of proving, he might have been justified in passing on to other matter; but if, on the contrary, he meant to make an assertion affecting the honour and the integrity of Irish Members of this House, when he said the corruption which had been practised under his view upon those Members, was unequalled since the days of Walpole and the Pelhams, I think he ought to be ready to establish that assertion. But, instead of that, the hon. Gentleman took the first opportunity of saying, "Now, I will immediately pass to another part of the subject." ["No, no!" "Yes, yes!"] If I am wrong in this, the hon. Member will correct mo. I understood him to say, immediately afterwards, when there was a cry of "Name, name!" that if the Chairman, by the desire of the Committee, called upon him to name, he would do so; but of course that is not in the power of the Chairman; and then the hon. Gentleman immediately said he was going to pass to another part of the subject. Such being the case, I own it appears to me that the Committee in general, and the Irish Members in particular, may consider these words as general words used in debate, which the hon. Member is totally unable to prove, for the purpose of fixing a stigma on Irish Members which they do not deserve, and that he is utterly unable to prove one single word of what he has uttered. If, however, the hon. Gentleman is ready to give the Speaker in the Chair an assurance that he is ready to proceed to charge Irish Members individually with that corruption with which he has charged them generally, I then certainly should not refuse my vote for the Motion that the words in question should be taken down; but as the matter now stands, unless the hon. Gentleman goes into that statement, I consider it will be better for the Committee to treat these words with contempt, and not to notice them.

MR. LUCAS

I apprehend, that, when words of this kind are used—if they ever were used—it is quite possible, that, if the hon. Gentleman chooses to go into the proof of them, he might prove to the moral satisfaction of every Gentleman who heard him a great deal that might be unpleasant to state or repeat. But I must say, I understood the words of my hon. Friend differently from what they have been described. I understood him to say—what his ulterior meaning may have been lies in his own breast—I understood him to say that the grossest corruption, or whatever the words were in that part of the sentence, had been practised towards the Irish Members. ["No, no!"] I appeal to the recollection of the House whether that is not the precise form of the sentence used by the hon. Member? and I conceive that when the House is asked to adopt a strict proceeding of this kind, they must take the exact words used, and not put a gloss upon them. The words, as I understood them, constituted an accusation against the Government; and might or might not imply an imputation on Irish Members. The words were, that "the grossest corruption had been practised"— upon whom?—"towards Irish Members."["No, no!" and a copy of the words placed in the hands of the Chairman was given to the hon. Member.]—"That the grossest corruption ever practised since the days of the Walpoles and the Pelhams, has been practised under my own eyes upon Irish Members of this House." By whom, then, has this corruption been practised? Not by the Irish Members on the Government; no one pretends that Irish Members have corrupted the Government—or that any bribery had proceeded from any of the hon. Gentlemen opposite to the occupiers of the Treasury bench; but a comparison has been drawn between the right hon. Gentlemen opposite, and the Walpoles and the Pelhams of an earlier generation, and it was asserted that the grossest corruption of the days of the Walpoles and Pelhams has been practised by them. That is the accusation. If, therefore, those right hon. Gentlemen, out of a regard for their own dignity and character, think it necessary to have those words taken down, and require some ulterior proceeding to be taken that is all very well; but, at all events, let it he understood that the accusation was made against them. It is only in this sense, and coming from them, that any complaint of the kind can be entertained. If the words are taken down, let them be taken down accurately, and I am sure the House will not strain the imputation a hair's breadth beyond what was conveyed.

MR. R. PHILLIMORE

I have paid, Sir, the greatest attention to what has taken place on this subject; and I think that the words used by the hon. Member have been correctly taken down. The explanation of the hon. Member for Meath, so far from mitigating, has, I think, increased the offence. The explanation is, that the hon. Member has seen, with his own eyes, the grossest corruption practised towards Irish Members by the Government. I say this, as an independent Member, that it concerns the honour of this House to know what Member of Her Majesty's Government has practised this "gross corruption towards any Irish Member" under the eyes of the hon. Member, in order to influence his vote in the debates in this House. It is a matter which concerns the honour of the House, and a charge which demands immediate explanation.

MR. OTWAY

The hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Lucas) has given a wrong explanation of the words now complained of. The House should recollect what preceded the words in question. The hon. Member for New Ross had stated that a few of the Irish Members had acted conscientiously; and then proceeded, in the course of his remarks, to make an accusation of gross corruption, such as had not existed since the days of Walpole and the Pelhams, which had been practised upon Irish Members under his own eyes. The Committee has itself heard the words; and I put it to every hon. Member whether the hon. Member for Meath (Mr. Lucas) has not given a very incorrect statement respecting the words actually used? [Great confusion.]

MR. E. BALL

I must state my conviction that the hon. Member for Meath has given a correct interpretation of the words used by the hon. Member for New Ross. If the words did not bear that meaning, they could have none whatever. It was a parallel between the Walpoles and Pelhams, of a former period, and the present Government, and unless the charge is understood as brought against the Government there would be no application in the words. As a charge against Irish Members it would not be applicable; but it would be so if brought against the Government. Sitting here, upon this side of the House, and hearing perfectly well, as I did, I am convinced that the words as given by the hon. Member for Meath, as well as the interpretation, are the correct ones.

The CHAIRMAN

I must ask the indulgence of the Committee in this matter, having no precedent to guide me. As I understand the state of the case, I am now to put the question, that the words, as suggested by the hon. Member for Carlow, to have been used by the hon. Member for New Ross, be taken down by the clerk; and that then the proper course, if that Motion be agreed to, and the words are taken down, will be to report progress in order to report the words to the House. I say it is my decided opinion that the language itself was disorderly. The general rule being that words imputing improper motives to a Member of this House are disorderly, the language of the hon. Member for New Ross appears to come clearly under that definition. I will now, therefore, put the question, "That these words, 'that the grossest corruption ever practised in the days of Walpole and the Pelhams has been practised, under my own eyes, upon Irish Members in this House,' be taken down."

MR. DISRAELI

I understand the Chairman to say, that he considered the words complained of were disorderly, because they impute corrupt motives. There appears to be some doubt as to the exact words. [Cries of" They are admitted;"and "No, no!"] The question is, what admitted? But taking the admission in its fullest sense, I do not find in them any imputation of corrupt motives. Now, it is necessary that we should act in this matter so that those who follow us half a century hence may not be led into error by our conduct. I say again, I find no imputation of corrupt motive. I find, however, a much more important thing, namely, a distinct allegation of corrupt conduct. Nothing is more clear than this, that the allegation of corrupt conduct, especially if such conduct is alleged against a Minister, is not disorderly on the part of any hon. Member of the House of Commons. It might be that a Minister is guilty of "corrupt conduct," and an allegation to that effect is surely not disorderly; for if such corruption exists, it is the first and paramount duty of a Member of this House to bring forward such a charge; and we must not declare that any hon. Member has been guilty of acting disorderly, because he has accused a Minister of improper conduct. By so doing, we should be depriving our- selves of one of our highest functions and offices. I think it is evident, from this consideration, how important it is that we should have a clear admission of what the precise words used were. If they impute corrupt motives to any individual, whether one of Her Majesty's Ministers or not, it may he, and I believe is, disorderly; but if there is a distinct allegation from a Member in his place of a Minister having acted corruptly, that hon. Member is not guilty of any disorder; hut, on the contrary, he has by so doing been acting only upon his right, and, if he can substantiate his charge, been exercising the highest duty of which he is capable as a Member of this House. I trust, therefore, that the Committee will act with the utmost caution in the steps which they may think fit to adopt.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

I am perfectly ready to admit the accuracy of the statement of the right hon. Member for Bucks opposite, that it is competent for any hon. Member in the House to impugn the conduct of any Member of the Government of the day in any way in which it may appear to him that he has grounds for stating the accusation; and so far as the charge of the hon. Member for New Ross against Her Majesty's present Government goes, I challenge him to the proof. I want no taking down of the words used, or reporting them to the Speaker. The charge has been made, and I defy him to prove it. So far, however, as the charge goes against Irish Members of this House, the matter stands upon a different footing. The hon. Member for New Ross has made a charge which, whatever may be the particular words used, implies necessarily an imputation upon the honour and conduct of his Irish colleagues in the House. Now, we all know that men are led away by the course of an argument, frequently to make assertions which, in clearer and calmer moments, we should feel we had no good ground for making; and I would put it to the hon. Member—he is a young Member of this House, and will excuse me, who has been a Member longer than he has, if I suggest a course to follow which I think would redound to his credit—whether it would not be wise to cut short the difficulty in which he is likely to involve us, by saying—what I am sure must be passing in his inmost mind—that he regrets that, in the warmth of debate, he has cast reflections upon the conduct of hon. Members, which he had no good ground for maintaining, and which, speaking deliberately, he would not have used. Nothing would be more creditable to the hon. Member than the admission that he did not intend to use words imputing dishonourable conduct to honourable men. The course which I have suggested is the one which I should take myself if I had let drop any words imputing dishonourable conduct to any hon. Member; and I would humbly venture to suggest that the hon. Member would best consult what was due to himself as well as to the representatives of his country, if he were at once, fairly, handsomely, and candidly to say that he did not mean deliberately and seriously to impute any dishonourable conduct to any Irish Members.

MR. LUCAS

[who rose amid great confusion]: I rise merely to protest against its being taken for granted, in the manner in which the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department has taken it, that those words which were taken down, and which have a most distinct meaning, have the meaning which the noble Lord appears to attach to them. I maintain there is no meaning of that kind in those words. The words which have been taken down contain an imputation against Her Majesty's Ministers, and do not necessarily convey any imputation upon other hon. Members, and do not necessarily convey any imputation whatever upon the honour and character of Irish Members. If I may venture to offer any advice to my hon. Friend, it would be that he should stand upon his right and on the words he has used, and leave the House to determine—which I believe it never will do -that the words bear the sense which I am persuaded no rational man can deduce from them, namely, that they contain any imputation upon any person except Her Majesty's Ministers.

SIR GEORGE GREY

[who spoke amidst continued confusion], said: If these words which have been made the subject of complaints do not contain the meaning which has been affixed to them, it would be satisfactory to the Committee to hear that such was the case from the hon. Member for New Ross himself. It seems to me that we have been engaged in a very fruitless discussion as to the accuracy of the words taken down. The Chairman has, with great consideration, appealed to the hon. Member for New Ross to know whether the words had been handed to him correctly; he appealed to the hon. Member to admit their substantial accuracy; and after the hon. Member had done so, and when the Committee was proceeding to discuss whether —their accuracy having been admitted —they should be taken down by the Clerk, the hon. Member for Meath got up and attempted to deny the accuracy of the words that have been read.

MR. LUCAS

I beg pardon, I did not deny [great confusion] —I did not deny— I did not deny it [renewed confusion]. I really think I have some right to appeal to the courtesy of hon. Members. I am telling them what I have repeated before. I read the words used by my hon. Friend from this paper, and my whole argument was founded upon those words, namely, "the grossest corruption since the days of Walpole and the Pelhams has been practised upon Irish Members in this House before my own eyes." I assumed the accuracy of those words, and my argument was founded upon their accuracy.

SIR GEORGE GREY

I certainly understood the hon. Member for Meath to deny the accuracy of the words taken down, and to deny that the hon. Member for New Ross had said that under his own eyes the grossest corruption had been practised upon Irish Members since the days of Walpole and Pelham. It is true that afterwards, admitting the substantial accuracy of the words, the hon. Member denied the correctness of the construction that had been attached to them. He did that with the hon. Member for New Ross sitting beside him, and that hon. Member confirmed his statement. I had hoped that in answer to the appeal of the noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and hearing the construction which had been placed upon these words, the hon. Member would have hastened to relieve the House from the painful position in which it is now placed, by at once denying that he intended to cast either upon the Government or upon Irish Members, without intending to prove it, an accusation which is equally disgraceful either to the one or the other. Not being able to prove what he stated with respect to this disgraceful conduct, I trust he will, even now, upon reflection, be induced—I will not say to retract the words, but, at least, to explain the meaning in which he used them, or proceed at once to give substantial proof of the accuracy of the charges brought by him as well against the Irish Members as against Her Majesty's Government.

MR. H. HERBERT

Sir, as an Irish Member who has listened to this most painful discussion, I venture to remind the Committee of the advice which fell from the noble Lord who leads this House, which was to treat the imputation which had been made by the hon. Member opposite, who has not dared to come forward either to prove his charge, or to name the parties against whom it had been made, with the contempt it deserves. As an Irish Member, and therefore, of course, as one of those who must of necessity be included in that charge, I, for one, am perfectly ready to take the advice of the noble Lord, more especially as in addition to that excellent advice, the noble Lord the Home Secretary has made an appeal which—I am at a loss to express myself, but I think the House will understand me— which would have been responded to by any person deserving the name of—I hesitate to use the word—

MR. DUFFY

I should have hoped, Mr. Bouverie, that, under the circumstances in which I now stand—assailed as I have been—[Cries of "Oh!"and "Hear!"]—and called upon to answer, under circumstances presumed, I suppose, to be serious—I did hope that I would have been protected against such language as that which has just been applied to me. And I must say that I do not think it at all creditable to an assembly of English Gentlemen to applaud the gross language of the hon. Member for Kerry (Mr. ft. Herbert). There are two circumstances respecting which I think it necessary: to explain,. The one is in reference to my observation, that though short had been my experience in this House, I had seen certain things pass under my own eyes. [Laughter.] I do not mean to alter a single word of what I said, and hon. Members at the back of the Treasury cackle out of time. I wish the Committee to understand that the phrase "under my own eyes" meant during the time I had been a Member of the House. The other circumstance is this: the interpretation put upon my words by my hon. Friend the Member for Meath has led to some discussion. There is much in it inseparable from the truth. I was instancing the corrupt conduct of Ministers. Walpole was a Minister, and so were the Pelhams, and both corrupted Parliament, as history tells us. I brought the practice down to our own times, and declared my conviction that the present Government did operate on certain Irish Members in the game fashion. The statement I wish to convey to the House is, that the same kind of influence employed by Walpole and by Pelham, seemed to me to hare been employed to obtain the votes of a certain small number of Irish Members. [Cries of "Name!" "No!"] A further explanation I wish to offer is this. The noble Lord who is called the leader of this House said I wanted to hurry away from the subject. That is not the fact. I said if the Chairman, as the organ of the Committee, called me to name the parties, I could name them. In the clamour that pervaded the House, I could not gather what course it was desired I should pursue. I collected from my friends that it was not wished I should name any names, and then only I said I should pass to another topic. I am, as several hon. Members have stated, not an old Member of this House. I am, therefore, unacquainted with its forms, and I may consequently have got into a position of some difficulty through my ignorance of those forms. But there is one position which I shall never get into —I will never unsay anything I have said, believing it to be true. When the Chairman said I was disorderly, a distinguished Member of this House said in his opinion I was not so. How was I to decide which was right or wrong? But the matter stands thus. If it be the opinion of the Committee that I should inform it of the facts which led my mind to the conclusion that I have expressed, I shall give that information. If, on the contrary, it be the wish of the Committee that I should declare what I said was untrue, or explain away its force, then, whatever may be the consequences, I decline to do so, and await them without fear. [Renewed cries of "Name!" and "No!"and confusion.] The hon. Member rose again, and said—I am called upon to name. If it be the wish of the majority of the Committee, then I will— [Confusion.]

MR. BRIGHT

I think the Committee will have discovered a considerable difference between the explanation of the hon. Gentleman, and the impressions made upon the Committee by his original statement. ["Oh, oh!"] Well, that is my opinion. I think the statement now stands thus: The hon. Gentleman is of opinion, and declares it openly, that the Government has taken measures somewhat analogous to those taken by former Governments for the purpose of influencing the votes of Irish Members in this House. I should be very sorry to have to defend any Government from charges of that nature. We know very well there is an investigation going on at this moment into charges affecting Gentlemen upon the other side of the House. I do not believe, myself—and I speak as having made some observations during the ten years I have sat in this House—I do not believe, I say, that any hon. Gentlemen, making a general statement of that kind,' can easily be shown to have said that which was incorrect. The hon. Gentleman comes from the other side of the Channel. We know—every one of us knows—particularly in this House we know it—that many Irish Members do take what may be called, though they are from the West, an Oriental latitude in the language they use. Their language is often of a very figurative description. Now I am inclined to think that the expressions complained of to-night may be fairly classed under that category. I may myself have at times used expressions which the House has not altogether approved of. Mr. Bouverie has decided that the language used is disorderly. Now I think the hon. Gentleman would not wish to say anything that the Committee considered disorderly. I hope he may, and he will probably, state to the House that he would be very sorry to transgress the rules of the House by stating anything that was disorderly, or contrary to the rules of the House; for his accusation, as he says, refers to practices which he believes are in operation by Gentlemen upon that bench (the Government), towards Gentlemen who generally sit somewhere below the gangway. Now, that is only a general imputation, which I honestly confess, if I were an Irish Member, I should never have thought of calling to be taken down. I have said such things in this House myself, and I have heard many other Members say the same things. When men are very earnest, and when they see Gentlemen with whom they have been in the habit of acting taking a part which they cannot comprehend—although it may be a wise, conscientious, a most patriotic course—I think under these circumstances, a Gentleman may make use of mere expressions, such as the hon. Gentleman has used, without the House being required to take steps of this nature for the purpose of going into a further examination upon them. I think the hon. Gentleman has made a partial explanation; and although I should have very much have preferred that the words should not have been uttered, I apprehend they do not bear the sense with which they first impressed the Committee—I cannot for a moment conceive them to be uttered in that sense; and if I might be permitted to advise the Committee, it would be, after the statement of the hon. Gentlemen, that we should let the matter drop. After all, the hon. Gentleman does not say that any of the Irish Members to whom he refers have succumbed to the temptation. The hon. Gentleman only speaks of their being operated upon. Everybody knows that all operations do not succeed. I understood the charge to be that this Government, like former Governments, have offered temptations and inducements, and used means to swell their majorities. I have heard such charges over and over again in the last ten years; it is a general accusation that has often been made; and no one has thought of taking notice of such general imputation, and I confess I think that there is a difference between the original impression of the words and the hon. Gentleman's explanation.

MR. J. BALL

It is not for me to judge how far this House may tolerate on the part of any of its Members direct imputations of corruption between the Government of the day and other Members of the House. At all events I, for one, as an individual Member, am desirous to vindicate not only my own personal honour, but the honour, also, of those Members with whom I am in daily communication; and if there is corruption going on in the House, I desire it may be manifested, that I may disconnect myself from it, and from those who have been; guilty of it. I shall not, therefore, withdraw my Motion unless I hear some more satisfactory explanation than I have yet heard. Corruption, Sir, is a very plain thing. The meaning of the hon. Member for New Ross I take to be this—that some hon. Members from Ireland have been induced, by pecuniary considerations— [Cries of "No, no!"]—to give their votes in this House. ["No, no!"] That was the plain meaning of the accusation. Are such -words as these to be used in this House, and the House then to be told that no meaning is to be attached to them? Well, Sir, so long as that allegation stands, I, for one, shall not consent to withdraw the Motion.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL

The right hon. Gentleman opposite, the Member for Buckinghamshire, is perfectly right when he says the Government is at all times, open to charges of this nature—to charges of corruption, or any other charges which hon. Members may think proper to make; and no doubt Government, as well as individual. Members, should be indisposed lightly to take offence at words escaping in the heat of debate. But it appears to me it is not only the Government, and Members of the Government, who ought to take offence at the words used in this debate; for it must be observed that the hon. Member who used the words was an Irish Member, and that the charge particularly referred to Irish Members—that they had been actuated by corrupt influences. Now, it appears to me that there are three ways in which any hon. Gentleman who uses such words as the hon. Member has used may act. The first is that supposed by my noble Friend—that where, in the heat of debate, words which were not well-founded, and unjustifiable in themselves, have fallen from an hon. Member in the course of his speech, they may be recalled, as words which, on consideration a few moments afterwards, he felt he could not substantiate, and should regret. That, it appears, is not the case of the hon. Gentleman, for he does not retract the words. The next is a perfectly justifiable course—namely, where a Member states that which he believes to be true, and afterwards says he is ready to make it the subject of inquiry and of a specific charge. If I understand that to be the case of the hon. Gentleman; I beg that those charges may be distinctly made. Hitherto he has refused to name. If he will name, together with the specific charge, the corrupt conduct practised by Government towards any hon. Member of this House, that hon. Member being guilty equally with the Government which made the attempt, let that charge be brought, and let it be inquired into. There is a third way; that is to say, where an hon. Member has used words affecting the honour and integrity of other hon. Members of this House, and has neither the proof to bring forward in order to substantiate his charges, nor the manliness to retract them, and acknowledge he has been in error. Now, Sir, unless I hear from the hon. Gentleman that he is ready not only to name the Gentlemen to whom he refers, but to bring the specific charge or charges against those Members and against the Government, which can be made the subject of substantial inquiry, I must rest upon the last conclusion with regard to his conduct.

Question put, and agreed to.

Words taken down as follow: — That the grossest corruption ever practised in the days of Walpole and the Pelhams, has been practised under my own eyes upon Irish Members in this House.

Words to be reported:—Committee to report progress, and ask leave to sit again.

House resumed.

MR. SPEAKER

having taken the chair,

MR. BOUVERIE

said: Sir, I have to report to the House, by direction of the Committee, that Mr. Duffy, Member for New Ross, has used the following expressions:— That the grossest corruption ever practised in the days of Walpole and the Pelhams has been practised under my own eyes upon Irish Members in this House.

MR. SPEAKER

It has been reported to the House that the hon. Member for New Ross has used the following words:—"That the grossest corruption ever practised in the days of Walpole or the Pelhams has been practised, under my own eyes, upon Irish Members in this House." Has the hon. Member anything to say in explanation or retractation of these words?

MR. GAVAN DUFFY

I desire to say I am not acquainted with the forms of the House, and do not know what is aimed at in this proceeding. Will Mr. Speaker tell me what is the course I am expected to take?

MR. SPEAKER

The hon. Member asks to be informed of the course which the House expects him to pursue. It having been reported to the House that the hon. Member has used expressions in the Committee which have been considered offensive to other hon. Members, it becomes my duty to call upon the hon. Member to explain or retract the words which I have read to him, and which had been taken down by order of the Committee. When the hon. Member has made either his explanation or retractation, he will withdraw, and it will be for the House then to say what further course they will pursue.

MR. GAVAN DUFFY

It will be in the recollection of the House that the statement I made was this—that though I had been only a short time in this House, I believed I had observed corruption practised towards Irish Members by the present Government of a character with that corruption which had, for similar purposes, been practised by Ministers whose names are familiar to the House. I am called upon for an explanation or retractation of that statement. If this House thinks pro- per to give me a Committee, I will lay before the Committee the facts that have influenced my mind in coming to that conclusion. I do not know whether it is quite reasonable to expect that in this hurried manner I should go into any statement of facts. But this I will certainly say, that the statement I made I have substantial grounds for believing; and I can only offer such proof to the Committee you may appoint as influences my own mind. But as I am about to withdraw, I do not think it is quite reasonable to expect me to proceed further without notice.

[And then he withdrew.]

LORD JOHN RUSSELL

I rise, Sir, only to say that the words used by the hon. Member contain a general charge against the Government, and certain Irish Members not named. Being in the situation of a Member of the Government, I do not think it would become me to advise the House as to the course that they should pursue; but I hope some experienced Member, well acquainted with the forms and precedents of the House, will offer that advice, and make a Motion on the subject.

MR. DISRAELI

I do not pretend, Sir, to be a very experienced Member, but I hope I may be allowed to express the general feeling of those who wish to take a fair and unimpasssioned view of what has taken place. I do not think the House ought to appoint a Committee to inquire into a charge of so grave a character on so vague a statement. At the same time that statement is of so substantial a nature that I do not think we ought to treat it with contempt. I think the hon. Gentleman the Member for New Ross ought to be summoned to his seat; and that you, Sir, should address him and require him to state the names of the individuals on whom he thinks the Government have practised these corrupt influences. I think it would be unreasonable to expect hon. Members, certainly at an unexpected moment, to enter into minute details; but I think he ought to be called upon, in his place, to name the Members against whom the imputation is made; and there will then be sufficient foundation for the next step, which will be to appoint a Committee to inquire into the subject.

MR. STUART WORTLEY

Sir, I am one of those who have been anxiously waiting in hopes that the hon. Member for New Ross would take some course which would have relieved the House from its present position. I will not trust myself to tee any other expression—but I cannot, for the life of me, understand how that hon. Gentleman, after the language held, and after the explanation he has attempted to give, can reconcile himself to the course he has thought fit to pursue. But, Sir, on the other hand, I think, perhaps, it would he unwise and imprudent if we were hastily, and at a moment's notice, in the present state of feeling in this House— above all in the present state of feeling which may be presumed to exist in the breast of the hon. Member himself—if we were to call hastily and without reflection upon him to substantiate or to retract charges of this grave character. On the other hand, I think the House is bound to require of that hon. Member, at a fitting time and in a fitting state of mind, either to retract the expressions which he has used, and apologise to this House for the Offence he has given, or in a manly, bold, and constitutional manner, himself to move that Committee which he professes to desire. I do not know what course will reconcile all the difficulties of these circumstances; but I should venture very humbly to propose that this debate be adjourned till to-morrow. By that time the House will be able to consider what is the best course to pursue. It will give you, Sir, and all of us, time to consult precedents, if there are any; and it will give, also, opportunity to the hon. Member to reflect on what has passed, and to take the advice of his friends on the subject. I am quite sure there is no desire on the part of the House to hurry the hon. Member into a ceurse which may be utterly destructive of his character, and I advise the House to pause before doing so. I, Sir, move, "That the words used by the hon. Member for New Ross, in Committee, and reported to the House, be taken into consideration to-morrow."

MR. G. H. MOORE

said, if the House were disposed to deal justly and generously with the hon. Gentleman who had made such grave charges against the House, he thought a reasonable time ought to be given. Whether they ought to be substantiated, or ought to be retracted, it was only fair and just to give a reasonable time to the hon. Member to consider the course he would pursue.

MR. KIRK

said, that as one of the Irish Members resting under this ban, he felt that under the peculiar circumstances, and at the peculiar hoar at which this debate was going on, it was very unpleasant and very uncomfortable to every one that it should be adjourned. But the House would bear in mind that all this would be printed in all the papers to-morrow morning, and circulated in the course of Saturday and Sunday to the most remote corners of Ireland; and Irish Members would most likely have to remain under the imputation for an entire week. Therefore, he thought they ought to adopt the course recommended by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire.

COL. J. M. CAULFIELD

said, whether the words used by the hon. Member for New Ross were or were not disorderly, or whether they escaped in the heat of debate, or with deliberate intention to give the impression, they certainly were offensive to a great number, perhaps to the whole House; and he could only say for himself and his hon. Friend who sat near him, that they considered them as insulting. He, therefore, begged to oppose the adjournment of the debate, and cordially agreed with the right hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Disraeli), who had suggested that they should call the hon. Member for New Ross to his place, and if he then refused to retract the expressions, or to name the persons against whom he made them, the House should proceed accordingly.

MR. BRIGHT

thought the hon. Gentle-man who had just spoken had used the very strongest argument for the House to take the course recommended by the right hon. Gentleman the Recorder of London; and considering the position he held, his advice upon a question of this nature was particularly valuable. The hon. Gentleman said the words were offensive to the House; and to the Irish Members, he might say, insulting. He (Mr. Bright) did not blame the hon. Member for being actuated by those feelings; but being actuated by them, he asked the House to come to a conclusion on this question at once—["No, no!"]—so far to come to a conclusion, as to require the hon. Member for New Ross 'to come in and give the names of those against whom he was prepared to bring charges— ["Retract, retract!"] The hon. Gentleman had already told the House he was not going to retract. That being the case, it appeared to him, however much the hon. Member had transgressed the Orders of the House, however much he bad offended any Members of the House, they would be only guilty of conduct equally hasty, and, perhaps, equally unjustifiable, if, acting under those feelings, they took any sudden or hasty course upon it. It was after Twelve o'clock. The question had been bandied about for the last hour, and it would not be doing justice to the character of that House if they did not adopt the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buteshire. He spoke without any kind of bias on the matter. He believed the hon. Member for New Ross was under a delusion with regard to what he had said as to Irish Members; but he thought it would be taking a course below the dignity of the House if they did not postpone until to-morrow their decision upon the question. He thought, after they had discussed and talked it over, they would be likely to take a clearer course; and he indulged the hope that the hon. Member for New Ross, after having slept on this matter, would come down and make an explanation so full and satisfactory, that no further proceedings need be taken.

MR. V. SCULLY

I would object to any Motion which could take any hon. Member by surprise. I regret very much that any Irish Member should have placed himself in this position, and have refused to accept either the advice which was tendered by the noble Lord the Member for Tiverton, or the construction given by his own Friend the hon. Member for Meath. As an Irish Member myself—as one who voted not for the Government nor for an income tax, but for a remission of the consolidated annuities, I think the sooner this charge is brought to an issue the better. No hon. Member has a right to assert anything like a libel upon his brother Members without being able to substantiate it; and, notwithstanding the advice of the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), who has not in his keeping the personal honour of the Members for Ireland, and who, I trust, has not been "operated on" by his relative the Member for Meath (Mr. Lucas), I do hope that an immediate conclusion will be arrived at. I beg to call to the minds of hon. Members what occurred. I had spoken on the question of the consolidated annuities, and I had stated that there were English Gentlemen representing Irish constituencies who took a different view of that question from me, and who were not interested in the land of Ireland. The hon. Member for New Ross, in noticing this point of my speech, turned to me and, addressing me personally, stated that, if there were Members on his side of the House who had no interest in the consolidated annuities, neither had they any interest in Downing-street. Following that up, the hon. Member stated that there were some few Irish Members of this (the Ministerial) side of the House who had given conscientious votes the other evening; whereupon some of us called out, "Some few, indeed!" but no explanation was given. Following up the same point still, and looking at us here pointedly, he used the offensive expressions which have been referred to, and which every one of us understood as an extremely gross insult. We called out "Name, name!" and the hon. Member said over and over again, "I am perfectly ready to name." I confess I wish the hon. Member, for his own sake, would now come in and either retract or satisfactorily explain his expressions, or that he would adopt the alternative suggested by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Buckinghamshire—that is to say, that if he will not either retract nor explain, he should do what he repeatedly said he was quite prepared to do—name the Gentlemen to whom he alluded; and then, if any hon. Gentleman thinks it necessary, let him move the adjournment.

MR. CONOLLY

said, he was most happy to say he was not in the House when— as he collected from what had fallen from hon. Members—some disgraceful scene must have occurred; but he must submit that the course indicated by the right hon. Gentleman the Recorder of London seemed to him at least the most desirable to adopt. He would suggest that, if offensive expressions had been used, time should be given to the hon. Gentleman to reflect maturely upon them, and he doubted not not that he would then come down calmly, like a man of honour and a gentleman, either to apologise and retract, or to adhere to and to substantiate, the charges he had made.

LORD JOHN RUSSELL

I stated to the House before that I did not think it would be becoming in me to point out what course it ought to pursue. Since then two courses have been suggested, one by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Bucks, the other by the right hon. Gentleman the Recorder of London. The right hon. Member for Bucks suggests that if the hon. Member for New Ross will state certain names of Gentlemen he alluded to, a Committee shall thereupon be appointed for the purpose of investigating his charges. Now, I must be allowed to state that I do not think that course is the proper one for us to pursue. It seems to me that, whatever may be the consequence, it would be a very unbecoming course in us to expose those hon. Members, without any apparent reason or cause, to the imputation implied in such an inquiry. In cases of this kind, there ought, I think, to be some sort of charges affixed to persons who are supposed to be guilty, and that merely appointing a Committee to inquire into the conduct of Members would be a very unjust and unbecoming course for us to adopt. The proposition of the other right hon. Gentleman will, I think, be the better, as it will give time to the hon. Member for New Ross to reflect, and to the other Members of the House to consider what course should be taken. I certainly have often found that by a little delay in such matters, cases which were exceedingly difficult have been easily brought to a conclusion; and, therefore, I am prepared to support the Motion of the right hon. Gentleman the Recorder of London.

MR. J. BALL

As I have been personally alluded to by some hon. Members, I beg to say that I should be the last to wish to put the hon. Member for New Ross in a position where he might be tempted to utter things which it would be difficult to retract. At the same time, with reference to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Cork, that the hon. Member should either at present or to-morrow adopt the construction which had been put upon his words by the hon. Member for Meath, I have to say that that would neither be creditable to himself nor to the House; and, therefore, in expressing my concurrence in the views of hon. Members who have suggested an adjournment of the debate, I do so in the hope that the House at its reassembling will see that the charge which has been made is met in a proper way—in a way, I mean, in which such a serious charge should be met. I beg to say, at the same time, that I did not understand that the hon. Member looked at me when he made the charge. It never entered my head that he did; and, if it had, I do not say that I should have been so forward to move in the matter. But the hon. Member having cast—I will not say a slur—but one of the heaviest imputations possible on a large body of hon. Members who sat behind me, I cannot think but that it was due to them, as well as to myself, to take the course I did.

MR. SERJEANT SHEE

I am not in the position of the hon. Member for Donegal (Mr. Conolly) for I have heard the whole of this unpleasant discussion; and I must acknowledge that I am not at all surprised that hon. Gentlemen opposite, my colleagues in the Irish representation, should have taken offence at the words of the hon. Member for New Ross. At the same time I confess I did not understand them, nor do I think that they, upon deliberation, can understand them in the offensive sense which has been put upon them in this House. [Dissent.] Do allow a man who speaks for an absent man to state in a few words what occurs to him as the true explanation of these expressions. The words used by the hon. Member, as well as I recollect them, were these—"That corruption as gross as had been practised in the days of Walpole and the Pelhams had been brought to bear, under his own eyes, on the Irish Members of this House." Now, is there a single man in this House who believes that the hon. Member meant by the use of those words to say that in his presence, under his own eyes, anything like pecuniary corruption has taken place. [Confusion.] Hear me; I cannot say everything at once. Does any one, I say, believe it was the intention of the hon. Member to state that under his own eyes anything like pecuniary corruption had taken place? ["Yes, yes!"and "No, no!"] The hon. Member for Tavistock (Mr. R. Phillimore) may think so; but I am perfectly sure that every man at all acquainted with the Irish representation, or with the hon. Gentlemen opposite (the Irish supporters of the Government), must know—and they know themselves, every one of them—that nothing of the kind was intended. That does not conclude the question I admit, because there may be other kinds of corruption than by pecuniary bribes; for instance, if any one—as at elections—had been proved to have given offices away, or to have used influence obtained in that way for party purposes, it would have been corruption in the ordinary sense of the word, though not pecuniary corruption; and I cannot help thinking that if hon. Gentlemen opposite will get rid of that feeling of irritation which has naturally been excited by the use of words such as the hon. Member used, they may, and must, find in them a meaning different from what they had sup- posed: they would come to the conclusion that those words did not impute personal dishonour to any Member of the House, did not impute anything of which the right hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury bench ought, can, or will, when the thing is properly understood—[Laughter]—ought, I repeat, to be in the least ashamed. [Confusion.] I must claim to be heard for an absent man. I must ask the House to permit me for a moment to call their attention to the position in which the hon. Member for New Ross stands, and to the feelings which may well account for the language he has used. The hon. Member has only been a short time a Member of this House. He came into it a Member of a party sixty or seventy strong, pledged, as he believed, by every assurance that could bind men together in political life to oppose every Government — [Great laughter.] Do let me speak—do let me submit to the justice and generosity of English Gentlemen, whether it is right to interrupt a man in the middle of a sentence, and to put a meaning on his words which those who hear them know that they are not intended to convey. I repeat it— a party sixty or seventy strong—["Fifty, fifty"]—well, let it be fifty—pledged to oppose every Government which did not support certain measures which the hon Member, and, let me add, a great majority of his countrymen, deemed essential to the interests of their country. Now, I ask the House to consider what I suggested, that corruption may be by office, as well as by money. Now, let us see, then, if we cannot find a meaning for these words, which impute no personal dishonour to my friends opposite, in any sense in which they would understand it as dishonour, but which may, in the sense in which the hon. Member used them, imply a sort of corruption practised in the days of Walpole and Pelham. During the early part of this Session, when the right hon. Member for Bucks was in office, that party, fifty or sixty strong, went as one man—we went together—into the lobby and overthrew the Government. The next day the Government was changed and office given to some of the Members of that Irish party. Now, I do not share many of the opinions of the hon. Member for New Ross, and I do not take so determined a view of Irish politics as he may legitimately and naturally do. I am one of those who think that the two hon. Gentlemen who were promoted, being men of unexceptionable character in public and private life, men of distinguished ability, and men who had opposed the noble Lord (Lord John Russell) when he was in office—it may at least be a matter of doubt whether the Government in offering office to these Gentlemen did not mean to offer an earnest and token of conciliation to the Irish Catholic representatives in this House. But that is not the view taken in Ireland—that is not the view taken by the hon. Member for New Ross. I have not a doubt that when he talked of corruption being practised under his own eyes since he had a seat in Parliament, he meant to say that hon. Gentleman, Members of this House, had been induced to abandon the course they had previously taken, and had declared their determination to pursue; and that the Government had broken up the party, and had purposely determined to break its strength in this House, by giving these Gentlemen office—by arts of influencing Members that were used in the days of Walpole and Pelham to influence Members of the House. I have heard the office of Solicitor General spoken of as an inferior office. Now, we don't consider it so. Neither do I think a Lordship of the Treasury a very inferior office. I beg to be understood as not speaking disrespectfully of a Lord of the Treasury, whom I know to be a most respectable Gentleman, and a member of a most respectable profession. But this I will say, that it was a high promotion to him—a Lordship of the Treasury. Now, let me ask hon. Members to consider if there be not some ground for thinking that the words used by the hon. Member for New Ross were not used in the offensive sense to hon. Gentlemen opposite which they seem to imagine. We all know that when an hon. Gentleman receives a place, no one believes that it was intended he should receive a bribe; and, therefore, I cannot help saying that I do think it would be somewhat hasty to judge the hon. Member for New Ross too severely, and that it is possible, after all, that when an explanation is given it will be found that what I have said was his meaning, because, having had an angry discussion with the hon. Member for Athlone, and the late Member for Carlow, he was reluctant to mention their names in his place, and impute as dishonest conduct to them what all their friends probably knew to have been nothing of the kind. I have only one other word to say. You cannot exactly put yourselves in the position and feel in the same manner as those feel, who, having the deepest interest in the happiness of their country, thought the best way to promote that happiness was to maintain a strong compact party in this House. Those who so felt had been greatly disappointed at the course adopted by some Members of that party, as far as we knew, without any pledge whatever—as far as we knew, without any assurance—of those measures being carried, or even considered, which we deemed essential to the happiness and interest of the country we were sent here to represent, and the general well-being and prosperity of the country at large.

SIR GEORGE GREY

I am anxious to call the attention of the House to the question before it. The only question proposed from the Chair is that submitted by the Recorder of London, that the consideration of the subject be adjourned to this day. No other course has been recommended in the shape of a Motion by any other hon. Member. Now, I think the House will act wisely in agreeing to that proposition. I think a few hours' deliberation will induce the hon. Member for New Ross to take that course, which, after having uttered the words which I think were uttered in the heat of debate, and not with deliberation— I think the hon. Member will be induced to take that course which any other hon. Member would take under such circumstances. I think it most desirable that we should allow the interval asked for by the hon. Member, and that it should not be alleged that he is taken by surprise, and called upon to come to an immediate decision. In recommending that course, I beg it to be understood that I should not feel justified in recommending it if I thought the slightest imputation rested on any hon. Member to whom that language was justly offensive. I think in granting the request for delay, we are best consulting the dignity of the House, while we do not leave a stain of imputation on any hon. Member. I trust, therefore, that as no other proposition has been submitted, the House will agree to the Motion now before it. If the House does agree to that proposition, I trust the House will deprecate the discussion of topics like those introduced by the hon. and learned Gentleman who spoke last.

MR. J. D. FITZGERALD

approved of the course recommended by the noble Lord and the right hon. Gentleman who had last addressed the House, and trusted, after a few hours' reflection, the hon. Member for New Ross, who, no doubt, had been acting under feelings of considerable excitement, would adopt the course which had been suggested.

MR. W. O. STANLEY

moved, as an addition to the Motion already before the House, that the hon. Member for New Ross be required to attend in his place at four o'clock this day.

Ordered —That the words spoken by the hon. Member for New Ross, in Committee, and reported to the House, be taken into consideration this day. [It was now past 12 p.m.]

Ordered —That Mr. Duffy do attend this House in his place, this day.

Forward to