§ Order for Committee read. House in Committee,
§ Clause 1, (The election in counties to be not later than the 10th, nor sooner than the 6th day after the sheriff's proclamation.)
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he wished the hon. and learned Member for Weymouth to explain the nature and object of this clause.
§ MR. G. M. BUTTsaid, the present law in respect to the election for counties was that of the 25 Geo. III., c. 84, passed in the year 1785. By that Act it was provided that the sheriff of any county, within two days after the receipt of the writ, should make proclamation for holding a county court for proceeding to an election not later than the sixteenth, nor sooner than the tenth, day after the proclamation. The alteration which he, by this Bill, proposed to make was, that the county court should be held not later than ten days, nor sooner than six days, after the proclamation; thus substituting for sixteen days ten days, and for ten days six days. That, he presumed, would be a sufficient explanation to the right hon. Baronet.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that this clause appeared to be re-enacting that which was already the existing law of the country. He thought the hon. and learned Gentleman ought first to repeal the existing, and then enact the proposed, alteration; otherwise there would be two existing laws upon the same subject. He thought the alteration for diminishing the time between the proclamation and the day of election for counties was very reasonable, and that there would be a great advantage in adopting it.
§ MR. G. M. BUTTsaid, he had not carried the Bill to the full extent of his own views on the subject, because he considered that the matter must come under the consideration of Parliament again when the Parliamentary Reform Bill, which was expected from the noble Lord the Member for the City of London, should be introduced.
§ MR. FREWENsaid, he was of opinion that the sixth day after issuing the writ was too soon for the election to take place, 234 except in case of a general election, as the time was not sufficient for the consideration of the constituency. He should move an Amendment to that effect.
§ MR. EVELYN DENISONsaid, he would submit to the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite whether the reason he had given for not going as far as he thought proper—namely, the expected introduction of a Reform Bill, was not a reason equally good for postponing the Bill altogether. He put it to the House, and to the hon. and learned Gentleman, whether it was right to make such small changes, and to introduce piecemeal schemes of legislation, the only effect of which must be to create perplexity and confusion.
§ MR. AGLIONBYsaid, he could not assent to this view of the subject. He did not see any immediate prospect of a Reform Bill, and still less of any that would he satisfactory. The best way would be to pass small measures when it was possible. The Bill was brief certainly, but beneficial.
§ MR. MALINSsaid, he was sorry to see the small confidence placed by hon. Members opposite in the promises and professions of the leaders of their party. He was of opinion that the alteration now proposed could better be carried out in a general Bill.
§ MR. G. M. BUTTsaid, the clause had met with the approbation of the noble Lord opposite (Lord John Russell) so long ago as before the Easter recess, and it had then been suggested to him to introduce a distinct Bill on the subject. He had done so, and had stated the nature of the measure on the proper occasion. As to there being no complaints against the present system, he could say he had received a great many communications to the effect than the change he proposed was desirable, and that the old law of 1785 required alteration and amendment.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he did not object to the principle but to the form of the change, and thought the clause ought to be limited to simply reducing the number of days in the old Act. It would be better, in his opinion, to repeal the old Acts altogether, and then to bring in a new Bill, than to incur the risk of confusion by amending the words of the clauses of former statutes.
§ MR. ROBERT PALMERsaid, that it appeared to him, if the sheriff of a county fixed a county election at the shortest period after the receipt of the writ named by 235 this Bill, and the mayor of a borough at the longest, the two elections might clash.
§ MR. G. M. BUTTbegged to explain that the Bill so reduced the number of days within which a borough election must take place, that it would render this impossible.
§ MR. FREWENsaid, that he would not press the Amendment of which he had given notice, but would move that the blank should be filled up with twelve days instead of ten.
MR. HUMEsaid, he thought it would be better to postpone all legislation on this subject until Her Majesty's Government introduced that general measure of electoral reform which they had promised. If, however, that did not meet the assent of the hon. and learned Gentleman and the Committee, he thought it would be better to repeal the present Act, and then enact another, dealing with the whole subject, than merely to amend the present law, and thus have one Act referring to another, which would very likely lead to difficulty and confusion.
§ CAPTAIN SCOBELLsaid, he must oppose the postponement of legislation on this subject. The measure of general electoral reform promised by the Government might not pass, or, at all events, without a general election; and in the latter case it would be of great advantage that this Bill, which would save much expense, should have been passed previously.
MR. VERNON SMITHsaid, he also would press the withdrawal of the Bill, as it was clearly the opinion of the Committee that the whole of this subject should be treated in one Act. If the Bill was pressed, there would be still greater objection to the second clause than to the first. The second clause proposed to diminish the notice to be given of a borough election from three days to two—a piece of infinitesimal legislation at which he was certainly surprised.
§ MR. G. M. BUTTsaid, he could not consent to withdraw the Bill. It would be of very great importance to pass the clauses in it, and he did not think this was the way to treat a measure to which there was no specific objection, and which every one acknowledged would introduce a very beneficial alteration in the law as it now stood. He had pledged himself to Members for counties, and other hon. Gentlemen, to bring in the Bill, and, after having done his best to make it a perfect measure, he 236 trusted the Committee would be of opinion that there was no reason why they should not, without waiting for future legislation on the subject, pass a short law, which would limit, as he proposed to do, the expense of elections in counties, and which would confer a great benefit with respect to the Universities. Being ready to make any and every alteration which would improve the Bill, he must therefore respectfully press upon the Committee that it was his duty to go on with the measure.
LORD SEYMOURsaid, the Committee were agreed as to the principle of the measure; but, if they were to keep to the old Bill, they ought to keep to the old words, as otherwise great confusion might arise. Perhaps the hon. and learned Member would not object to postpone the clause for the present, with the view to bring it up in an amended shape.
§ MR. G. M. BUTTsaid, he was ready to accede to that suggestion.
§ Clause postponed, together with Clause 2.
§ Clause 3 (which enacts that the polling at elections for the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge is to continue for five days),
LORD SEYMOURbegged to ask the hon. and learned Member, whether it would not be bettor that the writ for a borough should be sent direct to the returning officer instead of being first sent to the sheriff of the county, the only effect of which was to render necessary the payment of certain fees to the sheriff or his deputy?
§ MR. G. M. BUTTsaid, he had intended to introduce a clause in order to meet that objection, and would attend to the suggestion of the noble Lord.
MR. HUMEsaid, it was against the principle ordinarily laid down that the writ should not be sent to the sheriff in the first instance. He thought the borough writs should be sent to the sheriff of the country, because there might be different borough elections in one county, and the sheriff should be enabled to make arrangements in such a way that no inconvenience should arise in holding the different borough elections. With regard to the expense, the sheriff was not warranted in charging a shilling; and nine-tenths of the charges made by the sheriffs were altogether illegal.
§ MR. ROBERT PALMERsaid, it was the returning officers of the different boroughs who appointed the day of election, and not the sheriff, and therefore it would 237 be an advantage that the writ should be sent at once to the returning officer.
§ Clause negatived.
§ Clauses 4 and 5 agreed to.
§ MR. G. M. BUTTthen brought up the following new clause:—
That the nomination of a Member or Members to serve in any future Parliament for the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge respectively, shall take place on such day as shall be fixed by the Vice Chancellor thereof, being not sooner than six nor later than twelve days after the writ shall have been received by such Vice Chancellor.
§ MR. WIGRAMsaid, he objected that the clause did not give sufficient notice of polling. He would suggest, therefore, that on the day of nomination notice should be given of the days of polling. He would also recommend that, instead of twelve days, the time should extend to fourteen days, in which case it would be impossible for the Vice Chancellor to make his arrangements so that the nomination should not interfere with the duties of any particular week—when the senate-house, for instance, might be otherwise required.
§ Clause, as amended, agreed to.
§ MR. G. M. BUTTsaid, he would now beg to introduce the following clause:—
That at every contested election of a Member or Members to serve in any future Parliament for the said Universities respectively, the polling shall commence on such day as shall be fixed by the Vice Chancellor thereof, being not sooner than six nor later than twelve days after the day of nomination; and such polling shall continue for five days only, such five days to be successive days in one week, and shall open at nine of the clock in the forenoon, and close at five of the clock in the afternoon of each day; provided always, that if Christmay-day or Good Friday shall happen to fall during the week fixed for such polling, such day shall not be reckoned as one of the five days for such polling; but the poll shall be adjourned from the day preceding to the day following such day, and shall then proceed as if such, day had not intervened.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he wished to call attention to the great length of time that might elapse before the election was concluded. Twenty-six days might pass over before the election began, and the five days for polling would extend the time to a month, so that if a Member for the Universities took office, an entire month might elapse before he could again take his seat in the House.
§ SIR ROBERT H. INGLISsaid, he must remind the right hon. Gentleman, that under the existing law the polling might be kept open for fifteen days; and he begged to say that if the Committee 238 would take into consideration that the constituent bodies of Oxford and Cambridge Universities were dispersed over every part of the Queen's dominions—some of them residing at a distance of 300, 400, and 500 miles—it would not deem that too great a latitude had been extended to them.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, that they had had a recent instance of the extent to which proceedings of this kind might be protracted, and he thought that a fortnight, instead of a month, would be sufficient time; but if the Members for the Universities did not object to the proceedings being protracted, he would not press his objection.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ MR. WIGRAMsaid, he would suggest that the Vice Chancellor should have the power to keep open the poll beyond five o'clock, in order to meet the convenience of barristers and other parties resident in London, whose business detained them from appearing early at the poll. The last time that he had exercised his privilege as an elector of the University of Cambridge was on the occasion of the contest for the Chancellorship; and were it not that the Vice Chancellor kept the poll open until half-past eight o'clock, neither he nor many other persons residing in London would have been able to exercise their right.
§ MR. BECKETT DENISONsaid, he thought that if the Vice Chancellor was vested with a discretionary power, that it might very frequently place him in an awkward position, as he might be subject to imputations of acting under party influences; it would be much better, therefore, to substitute a fixed hour.
§ MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he must complain that on the last election for the University of Oxford, he had gone down from London to register his vote, but on his arrival he found the polling adjourned, or the Vice Chancellor had gone to luncheon. Now, though he should be sorry to put the Vice Chancellor to any inconvenience, he would suggest that the poll should, on the occasion of a contested election, be always kept open.
§ MR. G. M. BUTTthought that if power were given to the Vice Chancellor to close the poll at a particular hour, it might give rise to a good deal of ill-feeling and imputations.
§ Mr. R. PHILLIMOREsaid, after the experience of the late election for the 239 University of Oxford, and after the great disgrace and detriment which had accrued to it in the eyes of moderate men of all parties, from the protraction of the contest, it was quite evident that there was great weight in the observation of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Morpeth (Sir G. Grey), and there was also great weight in the objection that the Vice Chancellor should not he subjected to the imputation of having been influenced by party tactics. He would suggest, therefore, that the words "not earlier than four or later than six," should be substituted.
§ MR. WIGRAMsaid, he was quite sure that on one occasion he as well as many others would not have been able to exercise the franchise at Cambridge, if the poll had not been kept open until half-past eight o'clock. He had no apprehension that injurious consequences would follow from giving the discretionary power to the Vice Chancellor.
MR. MILESsaid, he believed that the difficulty of the case would be met by giving the Vice Chancellor a discretionary power to order that on certain days of the week, to be mentioned on the nomination day, the poll would be kept open up to a later hour than five o'clock, for the convenience of barristers and others who could not attend earlier.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he would suggest the introduction of a provision by which the returning officer would be authorised to close the poll at any previous time in the day, on the consent of the candidates and their agents. It was quite possible that in some cases before the first day of polling was over, one of the candidates might desire to withdraw altogether; and unless such a proviso as he proposed was introduced, the Vice Chancellor would not feel himself at liberty to close the poll.
§ A proviso to the effect suggested was agreed to.
§ Clause agreed to
§ MR. G. M. BUTTthen proposed the addition of the following clause:—
That at every such election the Vice Chancellor shall have power to appoint any number of pro-Vice Chancellors, any one of whom may receive the votes and decide upon all questions during the absence of such Vice Chancellor; and such Vice Chancellor shall have power to appoint any number of poll clerks and other officers, by one or more of whom the votes shall be entered in such number of poll hooks as shall be judged necessary by such Vice Chancellor: provided always, 240 that no vote shall be entered in more than one poll book.
§ SIR GEORGE GREYsaid, he wished to call attention to the concluding lines of the clause, "Provided always that no vote shall be entered in more than one poll-book," and submitted that if the object was to prevent voters in the Universities from voting several times, it could be attained by substituting for those words the question now put to the voters in other places, namely, "Have you polled before at this election?"
§ The words objected to were struck out, and the clause, as amended, agreed to.
§
CAPTAIN SCOBELL moved the addition of the following clause:—
That no poll at any such election shall be taken at any inn, hotel, tavern, public-house, or other premises licensed for the sale of beer, wine, or spirits, or in any booth, hall, room, or other place directly communicating therewith, unless by consent of all the candidates, expressed in writing.
MR. FITZROYsaid, he would suggest the omission of the words, "unless by consent of all the candidates, expressed in writing."
§ MR. ROBERT PALMERsaid, though approving of the clause, there might be this difficulty arising out of its adoption— that in some cases, of which he knew, where the poll wa3 at present taken at a town-hall, the lower part of which was actually used as a public-house, the town-hall could no longer be used as a polling place.
§ MR. LABOUCHEREsaid, he thought inconvenience might arise in many cases by the omission of the words in question.
§ MR. BECKETT DENISONsaid, if those words were retained, the clause would be entirely inoperative, for he could fancy candidates giving their consent to the poll being held in almost every place intended by the clause to be prohibited.
§ Clause agreed to.
§ House resumed; Committee report progress.