§ Order for Third Reading read.
§ MR. BRIGHTsaid, that last night, in his absence, the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control had inserted an additional clause in the Bill, reintroducing, as a qualification to all seats in the Court of Directors, the possession of a certain amount of the Company's stock. He (Mr. Bright) thought that it had been agreed that that clause should be left out, and there was reason to complain that the right hon. Gentleman had given no notice of his intention to bring it forward.
§ SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, that he had stated on a former occasion how desirable it was that there should be no distinction between the Directors, and he had accordingly reduced the qualification of the elected Directors from 2,000l. to 1,000l., and had substituted the latter amount as a qualification for all the Directors.
§ Bill read 3°.
§ On the Motion that the Bill do pass,
§ MR. HEYWORTHrose to move the clause of which he had given notice. It was his opinion that no form of government could materially improve the condition of India while the present tenure of land existed, and that if the system of freeholds were introduced, the same beneficial result would follow that had taken place in this country and the United States.
§ MR. HADFIELDseconded the Resolution. He believed India had not derived that advantage from her connexion with this country which she had a right to expect, and that the Government had been guilty of neglecting the interests of that part of Her Majesty's dominions.
§ Clause offered:—
"And be it further Enacted, That the Government now established in India, shall forthwith institute a survey of all the jungle, uninclosed and unoccupied lands, and shall cause the same to be mapped out, for the purpose of selling the said lands as freeholds, at prices not exceeding 5s. per acre."
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, the clause did not seem to him to be framed in such a manner as to be added to the Bill; and he doubted whether, if it were properly framed, the proposal was one that would be at all adapted to the situation of India. He thought it was utterly unsuited to the present situation of India; and he did not see how, under these words, anything could be done by the Government of India to give effect to it. Therefore, he did not see that it ought to be adopted.
MR. HUMEsaid, there was only one part of India which was adapted for settlement; but he had heard of no difficulty of obtaining land in any part of India. The great evil was, as proved by two able witnesses, that it was no use cultivating any district in the interior, because the produce would not bear the expense of its conveyance to the coast. The means of transit was, therefore, the first consideration. Lord Dalhousie had directed his attention to this question; and it was to be hoped that improved means of conveyance would soon be provided. He believed it was possible to purchase any quantity of land; and no doubt the Indian Government would have an eye to that, for the sake of their revenue. The object of his hon. Friend was a benevolent one, but he did not think it could be accomplished by a Resolution of that House.
§ MR. EWARTsaid, he thought the hon. Member for Honiton would be conferring a 1011 great benefit upon the House if he would inform them upon what tenure land was held at the present day in India.
§ SIR JAMES W. HOGGsaid, that the Resolution only expressed the opinion and wishes of himself and his Colleagues. Twenty years ago, an application was made to the Government of India for a large tract of uncultivated land, and 1,000,000 acres were granted for forty years; but it turned out that the land was only taken by the applicants for purposes of jobbing, and the result was a total failure. Any system of freehold in India would not be practicable or desirable, for the revenue of that country was derived almost exclusively from land, and it would be extremely unwise to anticipate the revenue by selling great districts of land. But at present any person might have a grant of any uncultivated lands for forty years, on the following terms: the whole of the ground to be entirely free for three years, and one-fourth entirely free for the whole forty years; on the other three-fourths, after three years, one-twentieth part of the revenue would be charged each year, until, by degrees, a maximum was attained of 1s. 6d. an acre. He might add, that, at the end of forty years, the Indian Government, by the custom of India, had no power to dispossess the tenant, so long as he chose to remain on the land and pay the rent.
SIR JOHN FITZGERALDsaid, that the great want of internal improvements in India was owing to the fact, that the money accumulated there by Europeans was taken away from the country, instead of being expended in it; and persons who had been twenty years absent from India found the country on their return in precisely the same state as they had left it, without the least perceptible advance. He had travelled through India and other parts of the world, and he could declare that be never saw a population in a greater state of misery than that under which the natives of India laboured. He believed it would be impossible for the House to obtain correct information of the real state of the country until the evidence of native witnesses was taken. He considered that the condition of the people of India was so bad, that any change that could be made in it must be for the better; and he should, therefore, support the clause before the House, as being a step in the right direction.
§ Motion made, and Question, "That the 1012 said clause be brought up "put, and negatived.
§ MR. J. G. PHILLIMOREsaid, he would beg to propose a clause providing that any person suffering under alleged wrongs at the hands of the Indian Government should be enabled to lay his case before the Lords Justices, and if they allowed a further prosecution of the case, that it should be referred to the decision of the Privy Council. Having already explained his motives for making this Motion when he brought it forward on a previous occasion in another shape, he should not trouble the House at any length now. He had first intended to propose that those cases should be laid before the President of the Board of Control, but on consideration he had thought it better to substitute for that Minister the Lords Justices as the tribunal, because he believed that their position excluded them from all political influence. The grievances suffered by our Indian fellow-subjects were flagrant and notorious, and for them to remain any longer without a mode of obtaining redress was inconsistent with the character of a civilised country. On a former occasion he hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Lowe) had objected to the tribunal which he (Mr. Phillimore) proposed to establish, that it would have to be administered by the objects of a State which was a party to the suit. But it was an inseparable characteristic of international law that it should be administered in that manner; and Lord Mansfield had laid it down that any other mode of trial in the case of an international dispute would be manifestly unjust, absurd, and impracticable. Now, the fact was unquestionable that the Native princes of India were loud in their complaints, and it was equally undoubted that here was no tribunal to try these cases. These princes complained that their territories had been absorbed, and themselves condemned upon ex parte statements which they had no opportunity of answering. Sir Henry Russell, a distinguished servant of the East India Company, had declared that the Court of Directors "had contracted engagements as if they were never to be fulfilled, and had fulfilled them as if they had never been contracted." The misfortune was that the interest of the East India Directors was, as Lord William Bentinck had stated, directly at variance the interests of the people of this country and of India. The interest of the Directors was to increase the amount of 1013 their own patronage, and every new State we annexed, as a general rule, increased the patronage of the Directors. Then there came a loss to the revenue, and that loss had to be borne by the people of India, Why, the recent annexation of Pegu wag followed by a long list of appointments; and be believed the possession of that country would be attended with financial loss to its new rulers. There was another point to which he felt it his duty to direct the attention of the House. Lord Dalhousie had sanctioned, or at least had no, disavowed, the alarming doctrine of the denial to the Native Princes of India of the right of adoption—a right to which the rajpoots were deeply attached. The course pursued by the Government of India towards the Native Princes could only be compared to the conduct of a foreign conquerer, who, after overrunning this country, should wrest such seats as Blenheim and Strathfieldsaye from their lawful proprietors. The case of the Rajah of Sattara, involving, as it did, a gross violation of the law of nations, was bad enough, yet he would not now further allude to it; but the case of the Rajah of Coorg was harder still. The Rajah of Coorg was a person to whom England owed a great deal for the assistance he rendered in the war with Tippoo Saib; but the Government of India deposed him, and gave him 6,000l. a year; and besides this his father and his other relations had put by a sum of about 90,000l. or 100,000l., which they invested in the East India Company's funds. The Company had actually refused to allow him this 6,000l. a year, which they contracted to pay when they stripped him of his dominions. For fifteen years the Rajah of Coorg had been trying to get some acknowledgment for the 90,000l. which his father had deposited with the East India Company; but he had been bandied about from the Court of Directors to the local governments, and had never received an answer to his claim. He (Mr. Phillimore) was not contending that his claim was just one; but he said that it ought to be investigated, and the Rajah of Coorg ought not to be allowed to have the solid ground of complaint against them, that they denied him that trial to which he was entitled upon those common principles of probity which united mankind together in society. The fact was patent that the East India Company had refused to allow him to stay any longer in this country, where he came to prosecute his claim, and they basely 1014 tore him from his daughter, who had become a Christian, by withholding from him his annual allowance. He (Mr. Phillimore) said that to tear a father from his daughter in such a violent manner as they had done, was an outrageous and abominable proceeding, which the East India Directors, upon no code of law or morality, could justify. For the investigation of this case, as well as others which he need not enumerate, he thought the House ought to agree to the establishment of some such tribunal as he had suggested, and he hoped they would not refuse to throw a shield of protection around those of their fellow-subjects who were the victims of absolute power.
§
Clause—
Whereas it is essential for the good government of British India, and highly conducive to the contentment of the people, that no case of real misgovernment or of well-grounded grievance, should be without all real means of redress, Be it Enacted, That persons suffering under alleged wrong may lay their case before the Lords Justices, and that if they shall allow the farther prosecution of the case, it shall be referred to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and the decision of the Judicial Committee upon such case shall be final.
§ Brought up, and read the First Time.
§ MR. LOWEsaid, he should not attempt to follow the hon. and learned Gentleman into all the topics he had gone into; in the first place, because the question had already been partially decided by the house when in Committee on the Bill; and, in the second place, because the remarks of the hon. and learned Gentleman were entirely irrelevant to the new proposition, such as it was. The proposition before the House was this:—
That persons suffering under alleged wrong may lay their case before the Lords Justices, and that if they shall allow the further prosecution of the case, it shall be referred to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, and the decision of the Judicial Committee upon such case shall be final.Now, he (Mr. Lowe) would ask the House whether the hon. and learned Gentleman had shown any reason whatever for this proposition? His former proposition was that the Judges of the Supreme Court in India should have power to decide cases of dispute between the Indian Government and the Native Princes; and in the present Motion he proposed the Lords Justices. Now, there might be some good reason why the Lords Justices, who knew nothing generally about India, should be constituted a Court of Appeal in Indian cases; 1015 but he confessed he did not know of any, and he should certainly like to have heard some assigned. He should also like to have heard some reason given why, if one Court of Justice was to have cognisance of such cases, they should afterwards be sent to another Court of Justice for decision; in other words, he wished to know why the Lords Justices should be made a sort of grand jury in order to see whether or not the cases should be sent to the Privy Council? But the fact was, as he had said, that this question had been already decided, and he did not think it right to waste the time of the House by discussing it again, especially as the hon. and learned Gentleman had not brought forward a single new argument in its support. Instead of supporting his Motion by argument, the hon. and learned Gentleman had treated them to a detail of the grievances of certain Indian princes, of whom they had all previously heard a great deal in that House, and he had imputed the blame of those grievances to the Court of Directors. Now, the fact was, as the hon. and learned Gentleman must be aware, that nothing could have been done by the Court of Directors in those cases without the consent of Her Majesty, as expressed through the President of the Board of Control. He hoped the house would adhere to its previous decision, and reject this Motion.
§ MR. MALINSsaid, that at present the time of the Lords Justices was fully occupied with the business of the Court of Chancery, and if they were compelled to take up all the cases that might be brought before them by the "Young India" party, he should wish to know what would become of the suitors in the Court of Chancery?
MR. BLACKETTsaid, he could assure the House that he had no wish to intrude unnecessarily or presumptuously on their time. But he could not help observing that the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Lowe) was not an older Member of that House than himself, and he should add that as regarded public opinion, and he might almost add as regarded decency, he could conceive nothing more impolitic than that the cases of persons of high rank in India, whose grievances had been brought under the notice of that House, should be passed over in the tone which had been assumed on that occasion by the hon. Member. He would support the proposal of his hon. and learned Friend, on the simple ground that no wrong should 1016 exist without a remedy. The hon. Member for North Staffordshire (Mr. Adderley), last night, said that, whether the salt tax was a good or a bad tax, that House was not a fit place to legislate upon the subject; and certainly the same remark applied still more strongly as to the unfitness of that House to deal with personal cases of alleged wrong. If they did not create such a tribunal as that proposed by his hon. and learned Friend, they would be driven to the disagreeable, and even mischievous, necessity of discussing in that House the cases of Indian Princes who alleged that they had been exposed under our rule to grievous injustice. That was the very ground upon which the late Sir Robert Peel, the most distinguished and the most respected statesman of our time, had pronounced in the year 1832 an opinion in favour of the identical proposition which had been submitted to the House that evening by his hon. and learned Friend. Sir Robert Peel, on the 14th of June, 1832, said in the course of that year that—
he hoped the Charter of the Company would not be renewed without their consenting to the appointment of some body, whether members of the Privy Council or of a Special Committee, who would relieve the House of Commons from the odium of resisting the just applications of individuals, through a sense of the inconvenience of the precedent, or from a conviction of their own incompetency.He should certainly vote in favour of a proposal which was thus supported by the high authority of Sir Robert Peel.
§ MR. MURROUGHMr. Speaker, I believe that it is utterly impossible to overestimate the importance of the clause which has been moved by my hon. and learned Friend the Member for Leominster, and met with such contumelious flippancy by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Kidderminster, not merely in reference to the fortunes and vicissitudes of individuals, but also in its relation to that vast and momentous question of Indian government, which has so lately attracted the attention and engrossed the discussion of the House. I conceive that the intelligence of this country may be more forcibly addressed to the real condition of India through the medium of those cases which have just been mentioned, than by any generality of statement, however well such statement may be authenticated, When it is desirable to attract the understanding of one people to a consideration of the sufferings of another, you must illustrate rather than declaim; in 1017 order that the result may be aught than an amount of unappropriated, and perchance morbid, sympathy, you must exemplify rather than describe. Thus the Rohilla massacre, the plunder of the Holy City, and the spoliation of the Begums realise to the mind the rapine, the cruelty and oppression by which our power was first established in Hindostan; and who, let me ask, who is in anywise conversant with the details of perfidy and fraud connected with the cases of the Rajah of Coorg and the Carnatic stipendiaries, which have been mentioned to the House, can be so perversely foolish as to suppose that those cases are solitary or isolated in their character, or aught but the reflection of the sufferings of Indian millions? Sir, the simple story of the Carnatic stipendiaries, betrays an amount of treachery and ingratitude unsurpassed even on the dark and sickening record of crime which forms the polluted and disgraceful history of our Eastern Government. To the common ancestor of these men, the East India Company were bound by every tie which good men hold sacred, and even bad men hesitate to sever. Hospitality in a strange land—loans under circumstances of pressing emergency—personal service on the battle field—and the destruction of a rival Power at a crisis when their very existence hung trembling in the balance; but no sooner had Mahomed Ali died than their whole attention was directed to the spoliation of his descendants; and on the last illness of his son, thirty years after the expulsion of the French, the palace of Chepauk was entered, the monarch insulted, his heir deposed, his territory seized, a usurper seated on his musnud, and the private property of his nobles confiscated by means of a base conspiracy conceived and consummated by the Company, for purposes as infamously sordid as were ever yet held up to public execration. In any European country such measures would have excited a most praiseworthy and justifiable resistance; but the Oriental, accustomed from his cradle to crouch to oppression, submitted, if not without a murmur, at all events without opposition. From a Government infected with the rapacity of Hastings, and tribunals polluted with the corruptions of Impey, he could anticipate no redress; and now, when this disgraceful body, who have governed India not with the dignity of statesmen, but in the marauding fashion of a gang of freebooters, have withheld 1018 from the descendants of Ul Omrah the miserable pittance which they affected to bestow in compensation for estates from which they are now deriving an annual revenue of nearly three million rupees, and these unfortunate men have journeyed to this country to seek sympathy and protection from an assembly of English gentlemen—I ask, is it fair, is it decent, that their case should be met by the flippant sneers of the hon. Member for Kidderminster? Sir, it was but a few nights since that I listened with much surprise and dissatisfaction to the panegyric which was passed on the persons entrusted with the government of India by the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Edinburgh. Yielding to no one in my admiration for the brilliant orator before whose powers my humbler genius stands rebuked, I yet regret that such a speech should have emanated from such a source—that that strong current of thought should have been compelled to flow through so circumscribed a channel—and that those vast endowments with which he has been gifted, doubtless for the benefit of a universe, should have been rendered the subservient ministers of party purposes. Far be it from me to utter a single word in depreciation of classic acquirements or the higher attainments of intellectual culture; but I must be permitted to doubt whether some other standard ought not to be required for an Indian Government than quickness in the solution of a problem, or the facile composition of sapphics and alcaics. The investiture of absolute power and uncontrolled despotism requires some other securities than the enrolment of an individual name among the pages of the Musæ Cantabrigienses; and if the right hon. Gentleman will suffer his imagination to wander in such obscure and unworthy companionship, I would direct his attention to that schoolroom of ancient Corinth, and recall to his mind its former occupant who was at once the best scholar and the worst ruler of his age. For the government of a people amongst whom public opinion is unknown, I should have thought that inflexible integrity would have been the strongest recommendation, and that an English Parliament, instead of limiting its choice of selection by that close system of which the right hon. Gentleman appears as the champion, would have been desirous of discovering in a more extended sphere, men who would— 1019
Rather coin their hearts And drop their blood in drachmas, than to wring From the hard hands of natives their vile trash By any indirection.I know there are those behind the Government who are accustomed to regard with a most callous indifference the suffering of our Indian millions, and who ignore the existence of Asiatic possessions for every purpose, save that of swelling the importance of Leadenhall-street. Such wretched infatuation, though marvellous, believe me, is not unparalleled. When the city of Benares was in danger, we are told that the safety of the sacred Apes engrossed the solicitude of the people; so upon this occasion, when the interests of justice—aye, of humanity—demand investigation, the whole solicitude of these men is directed to break the fall of the Directory. But without the House is determined to regard the Indian Peninsula as fulfilling no higher purpose than that of a vast hive in order to extract the sweets from which it is both lawful and justifiable to destroy the inhabitants, I charge them to pass this clause, to discard all party feeling on the question before us—a question which in some future, but perchance not far distant, hour of peril, may exercise a paramount influence upon our Eastern destinies; for I stand here impressed with a profound conviction that if from these walls you suffer these men to depart with their prayers rejected and their petitions discarded, their appeal will not be in vain to that Providence which is at once the protector and avenger of Princes.
§ SIR ROBERT H. INGLISwas inclined to agree with the hon. and learned Member for Newcastle-on-Tyne (Mr. Blackett), who with so much moderation and tact had brought back the House to the real difficulties of the case. The question was, whether that House was a fit tribunal for the investigation of wrongs occurring even at home, and still more whether it was a fit tribunal for wrongs inflicted upon a people differing from us in race, language, and religion? If it was not, then there was great force in the argument that a tribunal should be constituted, to relieve this House from the difficulty, not to say the impossibility, of redressing wrongs which yet it professed to do. But the proper tribunal was, he feared, not that which the hon. and learned Member for Leominster proposed. He wished to know, however, if an award was made by the 1020 Lords Justices, or by the Privy Council, in what manner the President of the Board of Control proposed to enforce the decree, for he believed the East India Company had already, on more than one occasion, resisted the payment of sums which the decisions of legal tribunals had declared to be due from them? He would not enter into the cases of the Rajah of Sattara and the Rajah of Coorg; he doubted, indeed, the accuracy of the statements made by the hon. and learned Member, but he took up the subject upon this ground, that there must be wrongs occasionally occurring in India, agreeing with the hon. Member for Newcastle-on-Tyne, that where there were wrongs there ought to be remedies, and that the remedy was to be found in some such direction as was indicated by the hon. and learned Member for Leominster.
MR. HUMEsaid, no one had submitted more grievances of the inhabitants of India to that House than he had done, and he was sorry to say with very little success. He did not say that the fault always lay with the Court of Directors; but this he must say that one great cause of discontent among the natives of India was, that that House so frequently rejected claims of which there could be no dispute. Whether the proper tribunal for hearing such claims should be the Lords Justices or the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, he was not prepared to say; but this he knew, that the question was of such grave importance as to deserve a better answer than that given by the hon. Member for Kidderminster (Mr. Lowe). He hoped the noble Lord the Member for London would not say that it was too late to discuss the question. Believing that there were wrongs inflicted, and that there were at present no means of remedying them, he felt himself bound to support the clause proposed by the hon. and learned Member for Leominster.
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLMy hon. Friend who has just sat down seems to have omitted one consideration—and really the most important consideration in this question—whether the clause proposed will give a useful and efficient remedy for the wrongs complained of. That is really the most important question of the whole. My hon. Friend the Member for the University of Oxford (Sir R. H. Inglis) says that there are grievances—that there are cases in which the Government of India is in the wrong, and the complainants are in the 1021 right; and then he says that there ought to be a remedy for these wrongs. But it appears to me, Sir, that there is still another step—whether the remedy is a good remedy or not. My hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) says that is a matter of indifference; that, provided something is enacted which is called a remedy, he does not care whether that remedy does good or does harm—whether it makes things better or makes them worse. [Mr. HUME: No, no!] Now let us consider what is the present state of things. The present state of things is, that in all questions where the law is said to be infringed, the natives of India can go to the Courts of Justice, and in cases of importance they can make their ultimate appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, which is appointed to decide such cases. No one complains of the Judicial Committee; on the contrary, it is found that in all cases of law it is learned and impartial. But then, it is said, there are cases respecting the Native Princes of India, though subjects of the Crown, who have been wronged, and in whose cases the decisions come to by the Government of India have been unfair and unjust towards them. One case has been mentioned—one is certainly as good as many—but one into which I need not enter—the case of the Rajah of Sattara. But I ask the House to consider what it is we have been doing with regard to this whole Bill. The argument has been—and in its general terms the hon. Member agrees as much as any one—fully as much as any Member of this House—the argument has all along been, that the first step you must take is to create a despotism. Nobody denies that proposition. Next it is endeavoured to temper that despotism as far as possible, and to prevent as far as possible acts of caprice and injustice being committed under that despotism. To do this you have created a Government, which a great authority, Lord Ellenborough, has said is complicated, dilatory, and expensive. I do not deny that there is a good deal of truth in all these charges. It is complicated, dilatory, and expensive. And why so? Because you wish to have some remedy against the caprices and violent acts of despotism, which cannot be had without creating various checks—long processes of examination which cause delay, conducted by officers requiring large salaries, and therefore expensive. Here are evils which you submit to in order to obtain 1022 that which you seek—a check upon despotic authority—a remedy against injustice and wrong. If you have this—if you have obtained a process which tempers despotism—then it is not necessary, with regard to acts which concern the policy of the Empire—acts which naturally and inevitably go beyond the scope of the law—it is not necessary for such that you should have recourse to specific tribunals. Now, take the case of the Rajah of Sattara, which was a case of disputed succession. [An Hon. MEMBER: No, a case of deposition.] In the first instance, it was a case of deposition; but it afterwards became a case of disputed succession—involved various questions of the law, customs, and policy of India. You had men of the highest ability who applied their minds to that case. You had, first, men of the highest authority in Bombay; then it was considered by the Governor General of India; and, I think, no one will dispute that the Governors General of India have usually been men of the highest eminence in this country. You then have questions of this kind referred repeatedly to the Government at home—to the consideration of the Court of Directors—ultimately to the consideration of the President of the Board of Control—and in the last case it was referred to this House. I admit the hon. Gentleman has attempted to show that this House is a bad tribunal before which to carry any case of justice; but I say that the great, the only, the essential tribunal in regard to great acts of policy, is the British Parliament. For my part, I do not think it possible, notwithstanding all that has been said, when cases of this kind go, in the first place, before the authorities of India, next before the Governor General, next when they are considered by the Court of Directors at home, and next by the President of the Board of Control—I do not think it possible, after all, that flagrant acts of injustice can be committed. I do not say that in deciding a complicated case, some hon. Gentleman may not be on one side, and others on another. That occurs even in questions of law; much more may it be expected to occur in questions of policy. But I say you have here a remedy for flagrant acts of injustice. If you have not, the whole defence of this Bill falls to the ground. Unless there is provision made by this Bill for tempering the gross acts of injustice, so natural to despotism, it would be far better that the Governor General should be left altogether 1023 uncontrolled. It is the great object of this Bill to provide for the benefit of the people of India by interposing between them and the Government a series of checks; and I believe it will be efficient for that purpose. I hope we shall not again see what has been once seen in this country, an impeachment by the House of Commons of a Governor General, which lasted through a long series of years, and was distinguished for the eloquence of those who carried on the prosecution against him. But that must ever be considered as the ultimate remedy of the State ["No, no!"] It is the ultimate remedy of the State, but I say, I hope never to see it again called into exercise, because I believe that this is a measure which will render that remedy unnecessary. I say that the wrongs which existed in former times, but do not exist now, have been prevented by the great power which exists in the Parliament of this country. I believe that that power exists in Parliament and nowhere else. I do not believe that the grievances complained of by Native Princes of India, who govern from 1,000,000 to 2,000,000 of subjects, and who had reason to complain of the conduct of our authorities in India—I do not believe that if you were to place their complaints before the Lords Justices, that their charges would obtain due attention. I have a great respect for the Lords Justices—I believe, as was said by the hon. and learned Gentleman opposite (Mr. Malins), that they attend diligently to questions of equity, and decide them with great learning—that they have not now a single case in arrear, and that all are well and ably decided. But if you put the Lords Justices from day to day to hear every complaint that may arise in India, and ask them whether each case is fit to go before the Privy Council, then I say you will produce inextricable confusion. Amongst the various and conflicting statements of the natives of India, they will be unable to say which is right and which is wrong. With regard, again, to the Committee of Privy Council, it will be impossible to give them the authority asked for without entrusting to them powers which they not now possess—powers which will override the Court of Directors, which will override the Governor General, and which will override the great powers of Parliament itself. In fact, the remedy which the hon. and learned Gentleman proposes, is a remedy which runs all through this Bill. Unless that remedy is 1024 contained in all the clauses of this Bill, the Bill is good for nothing, and we ought to seek the remedy not in this clause, but in some other mode of legislation altogether.
§ MR. BRIGHTsaid, he took a different view of this subject from that of the noble Lord, who seemed to think that no evil could now be done in India, and that what had occurred under Warren Hastings could not occur under Lord Dalhousie. Now he (Mr. Bright) was of opinion that in the last fifteen years, as in the cases of the Rajah of Sattara and the Ameers of Seinde, there had been committed crimes of as great magnitude as there ever were in the earliest and worst times in India. With regard to this clause, it was really intended to meet two sorts of cases. Firstly, cases like that of the Rajah of Sattara and the Rajah of Coorg, and Native Princes, who, because they were not deposed, were said to be independent; and, secondly, cases in which subjects of the Queen had claims which could not be decided in a court of law. The noble Lord had not touched on this last class of cases; he had dealt only with the first category of grievances, and on that point perhaps he could understand the weight of the agreements adduced. There might be a difficulty in establishing a tribunal for the case of Native Princes who, being deposed and imprisoned or sent to other countries, died prematurely; but with regard to the case of the claims of British subjects, there could be no difficulty. Since he had referred a short time ago to the case of Colonel Frith, he had seen the opinions of two eminent counsel, Mr. Serjeant Spankie and Sir Herbert Compton, which confirmed what he had stated, namely, that there was undoubtedly a great moral claim on the part of Colonel Frith against the East India Company, but there was no legal tribunal in which it could be prosecuted. He would read an extract from the opinion of Mr. Serjeant Spankie, to the effect—
That referring to another case, Colonel Frith's was a stronger one, as the money he claimed had been applied to the purposes of the Company; but the courts of law and equity had no power to enforce contracts made with the Company in their political capacity.What could be more rational than to have a tribunal like that proposed in this clause, such as the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council? He could say, on behalf of Colonel Frith, that if he could go before the Judicial Committee and produce his evidence, 1025 he would leave his case to their adjudication; and if even their decision was against him, He would spend the rest of his day, in tranquillity, because he would at least feel that justice had been done to him, and that he was not shut out from a hearing of his case. Sir Herbert Compton, speaking of the case of Colonel Frith, said, that "had a just and moral right to what he claimed, but there was no legal remedy for his case." There was no established tribunal that could deal with such a case as this, which had stood over in the name of the present Colonel Frith for more than twenty years, and it was the case brought forward by Sir John Malcolm in 1832, and with regard to which Sir Robert Peel and Lord Althorp had expressed an opinion favourable to the establishment of tribunals such as this. The noble Lord could not rest satisfied, he thought, with his speech which referred to only one branch of the subject, and excluded that which the clause embodied—namely, the establishment of a tribunal for the trial of the cases of subjects of the Queen, without reference to the Native Princes; and he hoped the noble Lord would not let this Bill pass without a clause establishing such a tribunal. He hoped, even if this clause was not admitted that some similar clause would be introduced in the other House.
§ SIR HERBERT MADDOCKsaid, he, know there were cases occurring in India for which there was no proper tribunal With respect to the case of the Rajah of Sattara, to which the noble Lord alluded it divided itself into two parts. There was, indeed, a question of disputed succession, but there was a previous question of deposition, and when that occurred, he (Sir H. Maddock) happened to be chief secretary to Lord Auckland, the Governor General, who was then at Simla. It happened that the Governor of Bombay, under whom Sattara was placed, had lately arrived from England, and from being a Director of the East India Company, had been appointed directly to the Government of Bombay. He had also recently been Chairman of the Company. Immediately on his arrival, the question, which had been going on long before, came before, him for his decision, and he intimated to the Governor General that he proposed to go to Sattara himself, and have an interview with the Rajah. He went, and the consequence was the deposition of that prince, which was reported to the Governor General for his confirmation. Now, he 1026 (Sir H. Maddock) was in a position to inform the House, that, in confirming this deposition, Lord Auckland was precluded from the exercise of his own unbiassed judgment, because a despatch came out with the Bombay Governor, addressed to the Governor General, informing him that the Governor of Bombay was in possession of the sentiments of the Court of Directors with regard to the Rajah of Sattara, and that he would be able to settle it. It was entirely in consequence of that despatch that Lord Auckland, who disapproved entirely of the proceedings, felt himself compelled to confirm the deposition.
§ SIR JAMES W. HOGGbegged to supply an inadvertent omission in the account of the dethronement of the Rajah of Sattara, given by the hon. Member. The Governor of Bombay to whom he had alluded was Sir James Carnac, who, in the Court of Directors, was one of a very small minority opposed to the general opinions of the Court against the Rajah. But he had no sooner investigated the case in India, which he did immediately after his arrival in Bombay, than he found ample reason for changing his opinion, and agreeing with the majority of the Court of Directors. The House must see, then, with what fairness the Court of Directors and the Board of Control had acted in sending to Sattara to adjudicate upon the case the very man who had formerly held an opinion adverse to their own, and had recorded that opinion in very strong language. Respect for the House induced him to abstain from referring to the language used by the hon. and learned Member for Leominster in introducing this clause; but he had been sufficiently long in that House to be aware that, when an hon. Member ventured to indulge in such language, it proved injurious to no one but himself. The clause was in itself most objectionable, because it referred to matters of public policy, and he thought the House was scarcely prepared to sanction the establishment of a tribunal which should sit in judgment upon the acts of the Government of the country. To govern India well they must send out good and competent men; but to say that the acts of the Government should be criticised and overruled by any tribunal, however well constituted, would certainly not advance the object they had in view. The jurisdiction of the Admiralty Court had been cited; but surely there was no analogy between that tribunal and the one which this clause proposed to establish, for, though 1027 on the breaking out of a war, that Court, by international usage and a long unbroken series of precedents, had power to decide what the effects of the state of war would be in certain cases, it had no authority whatever to decide whether or not war should be declared, or to pronounce an opinion on its justice or propriety. Those were questions of public policy, upon which no tribunal had a right to decide authoritatively. This distinction had evidently forced itself on the mind of the hon. Member for Manchester, who had confined his observations to the claims of individuals upon the East India Company. With regard to questions of private right, he contended those were already provided for by the existing tribunals. The Rajah of Coorg might bring his action against the Company in the local courts; and, if he failed, he had a right of appeal to the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council—the very tribunal which the hon. and learned Member proposed. The claims of Princes could scarcely ever be divided from the question of public policy. In the case of the Rajah of Sattara, it was a question whether or not the Rajah was a traitor to the State. The hon. and learned Member for Leominster had confounded questions of public policy and political morality with questions of law, which could be decided by tribunals conversant with the laws by which such matters must be determined. The claims of Colonel Frith and Mr. Hutchinson, to which allusion had been made in the course of the debate, were claims upon Native Princes, and it was scarcely possible, he thought, to constitute a tribunal in this country which should decide how far the East India Company were bound to coerce a Native Prince to pay money which he maintained he did not owe. He scarcely knew a case for which they could constitute a tribunal but that of some person, being a British subject, who had a claim upon the East India Company, which was so connected with matters of public policy as to be removed from the jurisdiction of the local tribunals; and even such a case was already met by an appeal to that House, which, if it thought fit, could always appoint a Committee to inquire into the circumstances. These cases were always more or less mixed up with questions of public policy, and he certainly should not advise the House to abdicate its privilege of investigating and deciding on such matters in favour of any tribunal, however well constituted.
§ MR. J. G. PHILLIMOREsaid, that he would withdraw that part of the clause which gave an appeal to the Lords Justices, which was, indeed, only inserted as a security against frivolous complaints. He would, indeed, withdraw the whole clause, if the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) would say that it was the intention of the Government to give effect to the suggestion of Sir Robert Peel, which met the approbation of Lord Althorp.
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, that Sir Robert Peel never brought forward any measure on this subject. He only suggested the point to Lord Althorp as one well worthy of consideration. His Lordship promised that it should be, and no doubt it was, considered. He supposed, however, that it was then found that there were, as it certainly seemed to him to be the case, practical objections to any such tribunal being constituted. He did not see any reason why the subject should not be again considered, with a view to the introduction of some measure, if it were practicable; but he could not pledge himself to the erection of such a tribunal, to which at present he did not see his way.
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause be now read a Second Time."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 48; Noes 99: Majority 51.
§ MR. AYSHFORD WISEthen moved the Clause of which he had given notice:—
And be it Enacted, with regard to admissions into the Military College at Addiscombe, that the nominations shall be made by the Chairman of the Bard of Directors, the President of the Board of Control, the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, and the Governor General of India, respectively, for the time being, in equal proportions of one-fourth of such nominations.
§ Brought up, and read the First Time.
MR. HUMEsaid, that he certainly did not see what the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had to do with this matter.
§ SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, that the Government had originally introduced a provision with respect to the admissions to the military college at Addiscombe, but had since withdrawn it in consequence of the general opinion which was expressed by the House on a former evening in favour of retaining the present system. The question had been already discussed by the House, and he hoped that they would now adhere to the decision which they had most distinctly pronounced.
§ Motion made, and Question, "That the 1029 said Clause be now read a Second Time, "put, and negatived.
§ MR. BRIGHTsaid, he now would move a clause providing that suitable offices shall be provided for the East India Company and for the Board of Control, if possible, under the same root. Haying already proposed this clause in the Committee on the Bill, he should not now repeat the arguments which he then brought forward. He thought it was impossible to doubt that great delay in the transaction of business was caused by the fact of the two departments being separated by a distance of between two and three miles. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control had on a former occasion opposed this proposition, on the ground that it would be highly inconvenient for Directors of the East India Company, who were engaged on business in the City, to attend meetings of the Board in the neighbourhood of Downing-street. But it could not be expected that the President of the Board of Control should go to the other side of Temple-bar. The noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) had said that evening, that the Government of India was complicated and dilatory; and this was a plan to diminish those evils. The right hon. Gentleman (Sir C. Wood) did very quickly what he had to do; but he did not always do it very well, and he would have more time, and probably do things better, if his communication with the India House was more direct. He (Mr. Bright) proposed that the building for the combined departments should be in Downing-street, and, therefore, as that was a favourite locality, the right hon. Gentleman would probably offer, on this occasion, less stringent objections than he had urged when this suggestion was last before the House. A proposition had been carried the other night, for increasing the salary of the President of the Board of Control to 5,000l. a year, for making that a first-class office, and Mr. Marshman had characterised this as "the penal station" of the Cabinet. Now, he did not want the President of the Board of Control to be in such a position that an influential writer in favour of the East India Company could characterise his office as "the penal station" of the Cabinet, and therefore he did not oppose that increase of salary. But if the office was to be made a first-class office with a first-class salary, the hon. Gentleman should not shrink from attaching to it duties of a first-class character. The right hon. Gentleman was 1030 now about to bring up a clause to increase the salaries of the Directors to triple their present amount, and double the amount originally proposed by this Bill. If, then, the dignity and emoluments of both the President of the Board and of the Directors were to be increased, he (Mr. Bright) said, that both should have allotted to them duties more responsible and intelligible than they discharged at present. He proposed, then, that within two years, or, if that was too short a time, within three or four years, they should be provided with offices in the same building, in order that their communications with each other might be carried on to some extent by oral discussions, instead of entirely by the incessant note writing which took place at present. He believed that the change would tend to the better working both of the Home Government and of the Government in India. The expense of one department amounted to 187,650l., and the expense of the other amounted to 29,140l., making the whole sum for the two departments 216,790l. He would suggest that they might sell the India House, and as it would bring a large sum, they might expect, after defraying the expense of building offices for the two departments in a fitter locality, to have a balance of 200,000l. applicable to purposes connected with India. The salaries of the Directors were to be increased, and they ought not to think it too much trouble to come to the West End to discharge their duties. The cab fare was only 1s. 6d., or they might come for 2d. by the boat, or travel by the omnibus.
§
Clause—
Whereas it would tend to a more speedy and effective administration of Indian Affairs in England, and would materially diminish the expenditure of such administration, if the business of the two departments of the Board of Commissioners for the Affairs of India, and the Court of Directors of the East India Company, were transacted in one and the same building, it shall be lawful for the said Board of Commissioners to provide, and the said Board shall, within two years from the 30th day of April 1854, provide, in some suitable situation, sufficient offices for the transaction of the business of the two Departments as aforesaid; and the said Board is hereby empowered to sell the buildings and premises now occupied by the Court of Directors in Leadenhall Street, in the City of London, and to apply the proceeds thereof to defray any expense which may be incurred in providing convenient offices, in one building, for the use of the said Board of Commissioners, and the said Court of Directors,
§ Brought up, and read the First Time.
§ SIR CHARLES WOODwould not follow the hon. Member into the various 1031 topics he had introduced into his remarks in moving the clause, but would be prepared to state his reasons for proposing an increase of salary to the Directors when he came to move the clause for that purpose. He did not see what the hon. Member's allusion to the salary which the House had been pleased to attach to the office he held, had to do with the subject under discussion. It seemed to be the intention of Parliament to throw more responsible duties on the office, and all he could say was, that no exertion should be wanting on his part to discharge them to the best of his ability. As to the clause now introduced, he could only say, the question it raised had already been discussed and decided by the House; it had been pressed on them by the same arguments before as they had heard just that moment, and he would not trouble the House by repeating the replies which those arguments had already received. The hon. Member seemed to think it absurd in him (Sir C. Wood) to suppose, that it would be more convenient for gentlemen engaged in the City to attend in Leadenhall-street than at this end of the town; but he could not agree with Directors the hon. Member on that point. He could not see that the plan would save any considerable sum of money. In the first place, they could not sell the whole of the buildings of the East India House, as they were not all the property of the Company, and it would cost an enormous sum to build new offices near Whitehall. He had been informed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that when the Government wanted to buy some ground near Downing street, they were asked 300,000l. for it. He did not think that there would be such economy of time or money, or such a gain in the despatch of business, as would authorise them to undertake a great outlay of that sort; nor could he admit that so much delay now took place as the hon. Member asserted. He must oppose the clause.
MR. HUMEsaid, he would be very glad if his hon. Friend the Member for Manchester would go to time India House, examine the different departments, and see what was done; and if he should do so, he did not think he would return from the opinions he then entertained. The hon. Gentleman seemed to think that nothing was done in Leadenhall-street; the fact, however, was, that the supervision of the entire affairs of India came under the charge of the various de- 1032 partments of the India House. He could not support the proposition, and hoped his hon. Friend would not press it.
LORD STANLEYsaid, the President of the Board of Control had not assigned a single reason for not acceding to the proposition of the hon. Member for Manchester. It was admitted by the right hon. Gentleman (Sir C. Wood), that whenever a single government should be established, it would no doubt be more convenient to unite the offices as was now proposed; and that disposed of every other objection the right hon. Gentleman had made, because he merely made it a question of time. With regard to the expense, any temporary expense that could be incurred was altogether inconsiderable when compared with the expenses of the Indian Government. As to the inconvenience that might be caused to Directors, if they referred to the Court of Directors as at present constituted, it would be seen that the great majority of the Directors were not at the present moment engaged in other business. Any measure was rather desirable than otherwise that would tend to confine the Directors to the duties of their office as Directors. They sometimes heard that the double staff was a security for the business of detail being more efficiently transacted, but he thought the fact was exactly the reverse. When they had two sets of permanent officials employed to go over the same business, the chances were much greater that the business would be neglected than if it were placed in the hands of a single staff of officers. He cordially supported the Amendment.
MR. VERNON SMITHsaid, he should also support it. The argument of the right hon. Gentleman, that as the Directors were to be an independent body they ought to sit in a separate building, was trivial. As to the argument about expense, it was utterly worthless. He considered that a superfluous speech at that time of the Session was mischievous, and should say no more.
§ SIR ROBERT H. INGLISsaid, the next best thing to making no speech was to make a short one. So he should simply say that, as a double Government was to be kept up, it would be wise to retain the establishment at Leadenhall-street.
§ MR. NEWDEGATEsaid, he felt the importance of maintaining the Court of Directors as a control over the despotic power of the Board of Control. To secure their independent exercise of this control, it was necessary that they should have se- 1033 parate eyes and ears, and an independent establishment. He should, therefore, oppose the clause.
§ Motion made, and Question put, "That the Clause be now read a Second Time."
§ The Committee divided—Ayes 72; Noes 100: Majority 28.
§ SIR CHARLES WOODthen brought forward the clause of which he had given notice, for fixing the salaries of the Directors. In Committee he would propose to fill up the blanks in the clause with the sums of 1,500l. as the salaries of the Chairman, and 1,000l. as the salary of each Director. The proposed increase was made in conformity with the desire of the House, generally expressed.
§
Clause—
Instead of the yearly sums allowed under the By-laws of the said Company to the Chairman, Deputy Chairman, and other Directors, for their attendance upon the business of the said Company, there shall be allowed to the Chairman, Deputy Chairman, and Directors, under this Act, the yearly sums following (that is to say): To the Chairman Fifteen Hundred Pounds a year, to the Deputy Chairman Fifteen Hundred Pounds a year, and to every other Director One Thousand Pounds a year.
§ Brought up, and read 1° & 2°.
§ House in Committee
§ MR. HADFIELDsaid, he objected to statement of the right hon. Gentleman (Sir C. Wood) which cast the responsibility of this increase of salary upon the House. Certainly nothing which he (Mr. Hadfield) had said could have led the President of the Board of Control to entertain an idea that the salary was too small. He thought that the amount originally named was ample. There had never been any difficulty in obtaining Directors when the salary was only 300l. a year. A thousand pounds, in his judgment, was altogether unnecessary, wasteful, and improper. There was another reason to be urged, that this state things could not last long, that House having reserved to itself annually the power of discussing this question, and it would very soon therefore make an alteration. It seemed that so far from suffering by the alteration in the patronage, they had benefited by it. The increase to 500l. was a moderate thing, but an increase to 1,000l..seemed inconsistent. He moved therefore, that the salary of the Chairman be as at first proposed 1,000l.instead of 1,500l.
MR. HUMEsaid, he would second the Amendment, although not upon the same grounds as the hon. Gentleman who moved it. He remembered some time back that 1034 a proposition had been made to increase the salaries of the Directors, and after a long discussion at the India House, which lasted two days, the proposal was rejected, not on account of the sum of money involved, but because it was considered that the increased salary would bring forward a different class of men to the present Directors; and he believed that such was the feeling of the great body of the Proprietors. He wished also to correct a misapprehension which existed as to the salaries of the Directors. They did not receive 300l. a year as a payment for their services, but merely to pay for the expenses of carriage incidental to their position and their duties. With regard to the patronage of the Directors, although it was true, no doubt, that persons were desirous of providing for their sons and other relatives, still, it was to be remembered that, as far as the civil service went, that patronage would no longer exist, for, although Directors might nominate their relatives, if they were unable to pass the examination they would not receive the appointment. When the Government originally proposed to increase the salary of the Directors to 500l., it was also proposed to take away the Addiscombe patronage; but it was now determined that that patronage should be left in their hands, so that it seemed to him that there was less reason than ever for increasing the salary. He should be sorry to see the proposed increase of salary, for it would, in his opinion, be dangerous to the independence of that House. The first thing persons coming home from India would strive to obtain would be a seat in that House, with the view of obtaining a Directorship, and he much feared that such a desire would lead to great corruption. Not very long ago the House of Commons would have started at the proposition to add a single placeman to their number; but now they were asked to admit not only one but six. He must protest against such a proceeding, and he hoped that the Committee would adhere to the original proposal of only raising the salary to 500l. a year. With regard to the increase of the salary of the Chairman, he had not the same strong objections, for that position involved a considerable employment of time and labour; but he thought that the proposed increase in the salaries of the Directors was quite gratuitous.
§ Amendment moved, "That the blank be filled with one thousand pounds."
§ MR. VANSITTARTsaid, he would re- 1035 mind the Committee that there was greater necessity for caution in dealing with this subject than with any other, for it was not the money of this country which they were voting away, but that of the unrepresented people of India. He would venture to suggest that the division should be taken, not upon the Amendment proposed, but upon the question that this clause stand part of the Bill.
§ SIR ROBERT H. INGLISsaid, that the hon. Member who moved the Amendment had introduced for about the thirtieth time into the discussion the argument that the Directors were paid by patronage, and he must therefore either believe that such was the case or that it was not; and if he believed that such was the case he believed necessarily that the Directors had exercised that patronage in an unworthy, base, and perjured manner; but he was sure that the hon. Member did not believe that such was the case. If the Directors were called upon to make a return of the distribution of their patronage to the House of Commons, it would be equally reasonable to call upon the First Lord of the Treasury or any Minister of the Crown to make a similar return. He was convinced that, on the whole, the patronage of the Dihau been exercised in the most worthy manner. He remembered no very long time ago visiting a school in the neighbourhood of London, where one of the Directors of the East India Company had given away no less than seven cadetships as prizes for industry and merit, and he really did not believe that it was an extreme case. But with the declaration upon oath, and after an experience of many years, during which not more than three instances of corrupt practices had been suspected, he should have thought that the allegation which had been brought forward and the arguments founded upon it might well have been spared.
§ MR. MALINSsaid, he should support the clause, for he would, if he had taken any part in time discussion of this subject, have moved a clause to the same effect as the one now brought forward by the Government. When the number of Directors was decreased, and consequently the duties of the remaining Directors proportionately increased, and when they were expected to devote the whole of their time and attention to the consideration of affairs connected with the government of a mighty Empire, he saw no reason why such persons should not receive a salary adequate 1036 to their employment. He had heard the subject discussed, and he could name gentlemen who, he had no doubt, time Government would consider qualified from their practical experience to fill the position of Director who had made the objection, that there were gentlemen whose means enabled them to live in the country in comfort; but if such persons were made Directors, they would be obliged to live in London, and 500l. a year would hardly cover the difference of time expense to which they would be put in London to that which they incurred in the country. The question was one concerning the payment of men employed in conducting the government of an Empire containing 150,000,000 of inhabitants, and yielding a revenue of 30,000,000l., and he thought that it was beneath the dignity of this country to be too particular about the amount of their salaries. Would any hon. Member say that 1,000l. a year was an undue payment for a gentleman who gave his whole time and attention to his duties? With regard to the corruption which the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) seemed to apprehend, he did not think that gentlemen would be so anxious as he thought to obtain a salary of 1,000l. a year for such service. A person well qualified for the position ought to receive a proper salary, and, if anything, he thought that 1,000l. a year was too little. He would just say one word with regard to the subject of patronage. He quite agreed with the hon. Baronet the Member for the University of Oxford (Sir R. H. Inglis) that the patronage of the Directors had, on the whole, been most fairly distributed. It was not unnatural that persons having relatives should wish to provide for them; indeed, it was the rule of nature, and as long as those relatives who received appointments were qualified for them, he saw no cause whatever for complaint. If he thought that appointments were ever made the subject of a money bargain, he should be prepared to vote for the total abolition of the Court of Directors; but, believing that such was not the case, and also thinking that a properly-qualified person should be fairly paid for his labour, he should vote against the Amendment.
§ MR. APSLEY PELLATTsaid, he believed the office was looked to more as one of patronage and honour than of direct emolument; and there were hundreds of merchants in the City having a knowledge of Indian affairs, who would accept a po- 1037 sition with such honour and patronage, however small the emolument might be. Men were willing enough to accept the office of directors of railway companies and such like undertakings, and give their time and attention for a comparatively small emolument. They had their patronage and various incidental advantages, and were satisfied with them. For these reasons he should vote for the Amendment.
MR. BLACKETTsaid, he had always guarded himself against making a charge of a corrupt exercise of patronage by the Directors; but he must remind the Committee that this phrase of paying in patronage had been a common phrase, and was well understood, and until this year no one had thought of taking exception to it; and, indeed, the noble Lord the Member for the City of London (Lord J. Russell) last night said, that the possession of patronage—without supposing an improper use of it—gave consideration and dignity to a man. He objected altogether to the system of paying in patronage, and he wished the patronage could be exercised in some other mode, but he protested most earnestly against their being paid both by patronage and salary.
§ MR. BRIGHTsaid, the right hon. President of the Board of Control wished the Committee to believe that the time and energy of these Directors were exclusively devoted to their labours in the India House. Now, he believed it was quite notorious that several of the Directors, probably a majority of them, attended there very little; and, in point of fact, their duties in the actual administration of Indian affairs were much more nominal than real, because they all knew that when persons were elected without much responsibility, the business gradually got into the hands of heads of departments. They had themselves seen Members in that House who certainly had not taken any very active part in the management of East India business, and, indeed, he found that nearly the whole of them held various other appointments. Almost the whole body were directors of insurance offices, or railway companies, of banks, or other undertakings. In point of fact, unless the directors of those undertakings were mere shams, they could not attend to the service of the East India Company, for he defied anybody to do it unless they possessed greater powers than any individual he was acquainted with. Besides, it must be remembered that some of these gentlemen 1038 were Members of that House, where they were frequently present from four o'clock in the afternoon till one or two the next morning. Being Members of Parliament, of course they had correspondence with constituents, and duties of that description, the weight of which many hon. Gentlemen well knew. Now, he would ask, how much time could Gentlemen so situated possibly have to devote to the affairs of India, and whether it was absolutely necessary that they should receive 1,000l. a year for such services? He did not object to 1,000l. a year being paid if real duties were performed, and if they actually gave their whole time and attention to the affairs of India; but it was obvious that they did not, and could not, under the circumstances he had described. In his opinion, it would have been wiser if the Government had condensed the whole of the Court of Directors into a council of some half dozen, to assist and advise the President of the Board of Control. The President of the Board of Control knew nothing of India. He did not mean the right hon. Baronet the Member for Halifax, for he had been studying India very much for the last three months, but other Gentlemen who might be holding the same office. To such he would give the advantage of such a council. Having thus obtained the best men, they might give them 1,500l., or even 2,000l. a year. They knew, however, that at present the Directors had little to do, and that all the business was done by their clever clerks. They were allowed, moreover, to sit in that House, and to have occupations of every kind besides; and it was well known that the office of Director itself was a stepping-stone to almost every good thing to be had in the City. It was because he thought the Government was proposing to increase the salaries of the Directors without securing any benefit for India or for this country, that he should vote against the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman.
§ LORD JOHN MANNERSsaid, he felt that the right hon. Gentleman opposite was not justified in saying that the clause was agreeable to the majority of that House, as that was a conclusion which could only be determined by the result of the approaching division. In the meantime, however, he must remind the Committee that they had as yet heard no reasons to determine them to accept the proposal. And as the salaries were to be paid out of the revenue of India, it was the more incumbent 1039 on Her Majesty's Government to furnish the House of Commons with valid and substantial grounds for the deviation from their original proposal. He could not consent under these circumstances, to the increase of salary, and he believed that the opinion of the majority of that House was not so favourable to it either.
§ SIR CHARLES WOODsaid, he would take that opportunity of stating that upon this subject he had had no communication whatever with the Directors. The reason which he gave for his proposition might be a good one or it might be a bad one, but surely the noble Lord had not listened to what be said in introducing the clause otherwise he would hardly have stated that he gave no reason. What he stated was that he had been told by Members of that House, as well as by other persons, that a salary of 500l. a year was not sufficient to ensure the services of the best men in the Indian services, and that it would, there fore, be advisable to increase the amount of remuneration.
MR. VERNON SMITHsaid, that although he could not compliment his right hon. Friend (Sir C. Wood) upon having made many concessions in the course of the discussions upon this Bill, yet he thought that what had occurred that evening was a sufficient justification of his conduct. This was a question of some interest. Their object was to procure the best men. In ordinary cases a competent salary was one means of securing good men; but this was not an ordinary case He confessed he was one of those who thought that 500l. a year was a contemptible sum to give a man who was to hold a high office; but then his opinion had always been that the number of Directors ought to have been reduced at least to twelve, in which case they would have been justified in giving them a competent salary, requiring them to give their whole time to the services of India. There was another way of dealing with the question. Hitherto the Directors had been a very independent body, receiving an annual sum of 300l. each—he supposed to defray their carriage expenses—and he was sorry that his right hon. Friend, having refused to adopt the first mode of settling the question, shout have proposed any increase at all. A great deal had been said of the patronage enjoyed by the Directors. Nobody supposed that there was a sale of patronage; but it was a mistake to imagine that patronage was not an advantage. Patronage was 1040 power, and it might be a sufficient advantage to induce gentlemen to take office as Directors. It was also to be remembered that if the Directors enjoyed sufficient leisure to engage in the pursuits enumerated by the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright), they must be in the receipt of other salaries. As regarded, then, the gentlemen who were resident in London, who were engaged in other occupations, and to whom patronage might be a sufficient inducement, he thought the case was perfectly clear; but there was a difficulty with respect to persons returning from India. There were numbers of meritorious public servants who had returned from India almost without adequate means, and to such persons it might be necessary to offer an increased salary in order to induce them to take office. But by this plan they would make a distinction between the nominees of the Crown and the other Directors; and, upon the whole, seeing that the feeling of the Committee seemed to be against any increase of salary, he would advise his right hon. Friend to adhere to his original proposition.
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he would wish to make a few remarks in reference to the question put by the noble Lord opposite (Lord J. Manners) before the Committee came to a division. The noble Lord had said that no reasons had been given for nominating this particular sum of 1,000l. a year as the salary of a Director. Now really, the fact was, it was exceedingly difficult to assign reasons for any particular sum—be it 500l. or 1,000l., or to say why one was sufficient and the other not. That was a question for each hon. Gentleman to decide for himself according to his estimate of the duties and the services of a Director. And when the hon. Member for Manchester said that each Director ought to be allowed a salary of 2,000l. a year, there was, perhaps, quite as little of reason in his proposal as in that of the Government. But these gentlemen, whether they were appointed by the Crown or elected by the Proprietors, were only appointed after evidence had been given of the necessity before the Committee. That distinguished person, Lord Hardinge, had stated that many gentlemen came home after long service with small fortunes, and were, therefore, unable to take the trouble and expense of a canvass. The men of competent fortune in the Direction cared little or nothing for the 300l. a year; but if one of these returned gentlemen was 1041 offered 300l. or even 500l., although patronage might be combined with it, he would refuse it, because he could not afford to keep a house in London and attend to the duties of the office. Hon. Gentlemen said when 500l. was proposed that it was too little; now, however, they said anything more—even 1l.—would be too much. That was not a satisfactory state of things for those who had to make propositions. He (Lord J. Russell) was indifferent as to whether the sum was 500l. or 1,000l.; but he thought the latter was the better proposal, and he was of opinion that the Committee should adopt it.
§ Question put, "That the blank be filled with fifteen hundred pounds."
§ The Committee divided:—Ayes 83; Noes 99: Majority 16.
§ Blank filled with "one thousand pounds."
§ House resumed.
§ Clause read 3°, and added.
§ MR. BRIGHTsaid, he wished to propose a clause, declaring that if a Member of that House should be nominated a Director by the Crown, he should not continue to sit in the House unless re-elected.
§ SIR CHARLES WOODbelieved that there was not the slightest doubt that a Member of the House being nominated a Director by the Crown, must vacate his seat under the Act of Anne, as he would be appointed by the Crown to an office of emolument.
§ MR. AYSHFORD WISEmoved that Clause 29 be disagreed to. He would not press his proposal to a division, as his only object was to elicit from the Minister for India an explanation, and to ascertain the exact meaning and intention of the Government with regard to this clause, which had been passed at an early hour in a thin House without a single remark. The 29th clause enacted that the limit of the European troops of the Company and of their troops in training should be extended, and permitted the Company to increase their force composed of British subjects from 14,000 to 24,000. Some years ago Parliament fixed the limit at 12,200 men, and also authorised the Company to employ 8,000 Imperial troops on paying the cost of the same. In 1813 Parliament authorised the Company to call for any number of the national forces, and they required at that time 20,000. The force now in India amounted to about 30,000 men, and under this Act the East India Company might ask for 50,000 men on paying the necessary charges. Now he wanted the House to 1042 consider whether this ancient policy should be continued or not. He doubted the wisdom of the proposed change, and he would state as shortly as possible the objection be felt to this augmentation of the Company's force in India. He thought it extremely objectionable in a constitutional point of view to have an English army of 20,000 men in India, and of 4,000 recruits in England, entirely free from the control of Parliament., and in the pay and under the orders of an irresposible mysterious Company in Leadenhall-street. The double military system was a greater absurdity and more to be condemned than the double civil system which had been so much discussed during this India debate. A great reform of the Indian army was requisite, and he was surprised that such a clause as this was introduced, which would render any future improvement still more difficult. He objected, secondly, because indirectly it would tend to impair the efficiency of the British army. India was the chief field on which the English army could take part in extensive military operations, and he concluded that the Queen's troops would not be required to the same extent if the Anglo-Indian army was to be increased by 9,800 men. Was it expedient by diminishing the contingent of the Royal army for those dominions, to render the number still less of commanders of brigades and divisions, exercised and organised by the vicissitudes and duties of our great military provinces? He was a lover of peace, and hoped there would be no more wars, especially in India, where our territories were inconveniently extensive; but if an army were necessary and regiments were to be raised, be thought the present proposal the least desirable mode of doing it, being as prejudicial to imperial interests, as it was unjust to our national army. He thought, too, that the system of English troops permanently stationed in India was disadvantageous in a military point of view. The native troops, amounting to about 300,000 men, were bold and intrepid soldiers; but they looked to the example and support of the British troops. The English regiments in the service of the Company, from a long residence in a hot climate, suffered in health, and discipline was not maintained. The mainspring, therefore, of our success, was the system of frequent relief among the Queen's corps. Was there ever any great establishment, civil or military, altogether removed from the central Government—from the action of home opinion, which did 1043 not degrade in character, lose vigour, and sometimes become comparatively useless? The armies of India had been preserved from the mere provincial character by the relief system. The substitution of a permanent provincial for a Royal army, tended to the destruction of that unity and military link which ought to exist between India, our beloved Queen, and our country. He, and he believed a large majority of that House, felt that the time was come when it was fitting that the Government of India should be carried on in the name of the Sovereign, and not, as the hon. Baronet the Member for Rochester had observed "in the name of the Company, which the illiterate people of India imagined to be a old woman." It would be found too that the services required of troops could not be performed by men long stationed in India so well as by the imperial troops sent out from time to time. He did not doubt the courage of the European troops in the Company's service, but the constitutions of the men could not be of the same character and it was notorious that the discipline was materially relaxed. With reference to the inevitable consequences, physical and moral which experience had proved to result from existence in tropical climates, he would read to the House a statement made by Colonel Mansfield, of the 53rd foot, within the last few days:—"However cheerfully we may pass our lives and serve our country in those climates, we must admit, practically, that such existence is a long disease to an Englishman. He may battle against it for years, but still it is a disease—a long protracted disease. What it is to a man, so it is to a regiment of Englishmen. We must not shrink from contemplating the results of the change which is now sought to be initiated. It is no question of rival services—of one seeking paltry advantages at the expense of the other—but it is a question whether, for the sake of little patronage now and then, we shall consent to relinquish the defence given us naturally, against the influences of climate and the corruptions of languid habits. The right hon. Baronet (Sir C. Wood) does not know the difficulty of keeping troops up to the mark in an Indian climate, and no one without regimental experience, can appreciate the gradual creeping langour over a body of men, commencing with the commanding officer." This letter, written by an able and experienced officer with reference to this clause, proved, he thought that he was justified in preferring the em- 1044 ployment of imperial troops, that were relieved from time to time, to the Company's troops, that were stationed in India, perhaps, for twenty years or more. Another objection which he entertained to this clause was, that it increased the patronage of the East India Company, for it would give them this year from 400 to 500 appointments. The Minister for India had promised to decrease the influence of the Directors, and yet he increased their salaries and their patronage, which he feared would be used, as it always had been, as private property, and not as a great and sacred trust. He was aware that he should be told that Lord Dalhousie had recommended this measure, and the Minister would say that there was a war in Burmah. In his opinion there ought to have been no such war. But even if there were any necessity for more troops, it appeared to him more desirable that Her Majesty's troops should be increased and sent to the East, than that the East India Company should be allowed to increase their forces.
§ Amendment proposed, to leave out Clause 29.
§ SIR CHARLES WOODwould remind the hon. Gentleman that it was not a very usual course to move the rejection of a clause upon the third reading, when that clause had passed through Committee without any objection being taken to it. The question for the House to decide upon was, not whether the army in India should be the Queen's army, but it was the mere number of the European troops in the Company's service. The Company's forces were now precisely what they were seventy years ago, while the Queen's troops had been considerably increased, and, therefore, what the hon. Gentleman desired had in reality taken place, no increase in the Company's European troops having been effected since the year 1788. During this time it would be remembered that there had been a considerable addition to the territories of the East India Company, and there had been a considerable increase in the Native army. It had been thought desirable by the Government of India, and had been recommended by Lord Dalhousie, that an increase should be made in the East India Company's European forces. The old clause said that the number should not be beyond 12,000 men, and this clause that the number should not be beyond 20,000; but neither of these clauses defined that the number should absolutely be either 12,000 or 20,000. It was desirable when 1045 the Government were fixing a limit, to fix it at something beyond what might be wanted. He had asked the opinion of Lord Hardinge upon this point, and his Lordship strongly advised him to concur in the Earl of Dalhousie's recommendation. He would not dwell upon the question of patronage, but all the authorities agreed that an increase of the Company's European forces was desirable; upon that opinion he had acted, and he hoped the House would not reject the clause he had introduced.
§ Bill passed.
§ The House adjourned at half after Two o'clock, till Monday next.