HC Deb 18 July 1853 vol 129 cc418-28

Order for Committee read.

House in Committee.

Clauses 15 to 19 inclusive agreed to.

Clause 20 (Appointments of Members of Council shall be subject to the approbation of Her Majesty).

MR. HUME

said, he wished to know what reason there was for this clause? If there was one part of the administration of the Company which deserved and had received more credit than another, it was the manner in which they appointed the members of the Council, and in which they had provided in expectancy for the filling up of vacancies which might occur from death or other causes. He certainly considered that to take away this power from the Company would be to deprive them of much of the prestige and influence which they had hitherto enjoyed among the Natives, and which was necessary for the good government of the country. He thought the clause ought to be rejected.

SIR CHARLES WOOD

said, this restriction was considered necessary for the proper working of the Indian Government, and he could not consent to give it up.

Clause agreed to; as was also Clause 21.

Clause 22 (Legislative Councillors added to the Council of India, for making Laws and Regulations).

SIR HERBERT MADDOCK

said, he wished to move the omission from the clause of the words "two persons having been ten years in the civil service of the Company," and the substitution of the words "three persons, being European or Native Indian subjects of Her Majesty, not in the service of Her Majesty or the said Company." He contended that it would not be necessary to have all the year round so large a body of men employed in the duties assigned to them by the clause as it stood, and paid at so great a rate as was there proposed. But if they were to form a Legislative Council on so extensive a basis as was proposed by the clause, it would be far more desirable, instead of nominating every Member of that Council, except the lawyers, who were gentleman of the civil service, either to adopt the Amendment of which the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) had given notice, or, what he (Sir H. Maddock) should greatly prefer, to leave it optional with the Government to appoint to that Council European gentlemen residing in India, or native Indian subjects of Her Majesty, but who should not be in the service of the Crown or of the Company. Besides, he submitted, it was desirable to have other persons in the Council, representing interests other than those of the governing body. It would be much more becoming of Parliament to form such a court as would give satisfaction to the people of India, than to confide the making of law and regulations to those who were interested only in the governing body. There were many persons in Calcutta unconnected either with the Crown or with the Company whose respectability and abilities fully entitled them to be placed in such a position.

MR. HUME

said, that before the Amendment of the hon. Member for Rochester was put, he had an Amendment, of which he had given notice, that he wished to propose—namely, that of the councillors to be appointed, one of them be a Hindoo, and the other a Mahomedan. Some persons thought that the natives had not conducted themselves so well in other situations that they should be appointed to the Legislative Council. He differed very much from those persons, because when he was in India he was as well and faithfully served by natives as ever he was in England. He believed that if a Hindoo and Mahomedan were appointed, it would tend to give confidence to the natives of the country, and would prevent those mistakes with respect to their customs and usages which often led to so much mischief.

Amendment proposed— In page 10, line 12, after the words' Governor General,' to insert the words 'two natives of India, one being a Hindoo and the other a Mahomedan, to be members of the Legislative Council.'

SIR. HERBERT MADDOCK

said, he should be glad if either the Amendment of the hon. Member for Montrose, or his own, were adopted, as the President of the Board of Control should consider best. But with reference to what fell from the hon. Member (Mr. Hume) with regard to the evidence before the Indian Committee, be wished to say to say that though there was a difference of opinion as to admitting natives into the councils generally, yet he was not aware that any of the evidence given went further than this—that they would be useless. He believed that two or three native gentlemen associated with seven or eight English gentlemen would have much weight in a council. The main reason for which he asked a consideration of this matter was, that if it was desired to inspire the people of India with a belief that we were interested in their welfare, and were anxious that they should have an opportunity of declaring their feelings and advocating their interests, it would be only an act of wisdom and justice to place two native gentlemen in the Legislative Council. He would not place them in the Executive Council, for he believed that the Executive and the officers of the army should be English, and that the civil service should also be English, and a close service, and that no natives should be admitted into it.

SIR ROBERT H. INGLIS

said, he presumed that the objections taken to the Clause had two objects in view—first, to satisfy the natives of India, and next to improve the Legislative Council. He doubted whether the proposed remedy would accomplish the one object or the other. In the first place, he doubted or the whether it would satisfy the natives; for where there were so many nations and sects, the probability was that from whichever you took, you would displease all the others. The question then was, whether they were to govern India on English or Indian principles. He was convinced, also, that there was as much, if not more, knowledge of Mahomedan laws and customs to be found among the civil servants of the Company as among the natives; and it was not likely, therefore, that the efficiency of the Legislative Council would be increased by the appointment of two natives. It was not to save money that he objected to the Amendments, but because he believed that neither the Council would be improved, nor the people of India satisfied by the change.

SIR CHARLES WOOD

opposed the Amendment. He thought it was strange that the hon. Gentleman who complained of the excess of Members in the Legisla- tive Council should seek to remedy it by appointing two additional members. It was advisable to employ natives in administrative affairs; but the whole tenor of the evidence on this point was against putting them into the Legislative Council. It would, moreover, be impossible to do so without creating the greatest jealousy among the numerous sects which would necessarily remain unrepresented. He did not believe it would be possible to find two natives who should represent the whole native population. For the purpose of legislation it was exceedingly desirable to have a Council to assist the Governor General. Lord Ellenborough was of opinion that the Council should not exceed twelve in number, and that among them should be gentlemen from the other Presidencies. He (Sir Charles Wood), thought it of great importance that there should be gentlemen from other Presidencies; but he did not think it desirable to increase the Executive Council. With regard to the Legislative Council no such objection to their number being increased existed. With regard to residence, he was of opinion that there ought always to be a quorum of the Legislative Council capable of being called together at any time at Calcutta. With regard to the law commission, he thought that great advantage had been derived from their labours in improving legislation in India; but the fault of the Act of 1833 was in the machinery by which the law commision worked. The commission considered the various laws and customs of India, and collected materials for framing a code of laws, but they had no power to carry any of their labours into effect. The question had been raised, whether it would not be advisable to reconstruct the commission? His own opinion was, that it would be better to proceed as the Government had proposed to do. They would have, in the Legislative Council, a certain number of gentlemen from the other presidencies, and also the Chief Justice of the highest Court in Calcutta, and also one of the other Judges of the Supreme Court. This would insure not only a knowledge of India, but a knowledge of the law; and the result of the labours of these two elements combined would be not merely a recommendation, but a legislative act. On these grounds, he did not think it advisable either to reduce or to add to the numbers proposed by the Bill.

LORD STANLEY

said, he thought the Amendment raised one of the most impor- tant questions connected with Indian Government—namely, the admission of natives to, or their exclusion from, the highest legislative offices. He would go as far as the hon. Member for Montrose or any Member of that House in desiring to see native talent and intellect admitted into the highest offices in India, and did not think they possessed the defects intellectually or morally that some persons seemed to consider. He was inclined to go on that head a little further than perhaps he was altogether warranted in going by the evidence received before the Committee, because, though he admitted the ability and fairness of those who gave that evidence, he felt it was impossible that men should not have some bias from their occupation; and the great majority of the witnesses that had been examined were themselves members of an exclusive civil service. Anxious, however, as he was, to admit natives of talent to the highest offices in India, and, if practicable, to admit them even into the Legislative Council, he saw great difficulty in taking that course in the manner which was proposed by the Amendment of the hon. Member for Montrose. Because, if natives were to be constituted members of the Legislative Council without having any effectual provisions made for their admission into the civil service, there would be an obstacle thus raised to the fair working of the measure. Those seats in the Legislative Council conferred upon the natives would not be earned by competition, or given according to merit, but would become rather matters of reward and favour and patronage in the hands of the Government. That was not the manner in which he should wish to proceed; he did not think that in this measure they had made effectual and sufficient provision for the admission of natives to the civil service. That was a point on which the Bill was susceptible of amendment; and he believed it would be in the power of the House to introduce clauses by which practically the natives of India would be placed on the same footing as natives of England with regard to eligibility for the civil service. At present he had no alternative, though he sympathised with the hon. Member for Montrose in the object he had in view, but to support the clause as it stood.

VISCOUNT JOCELYN

said, he entirely agreed in the principle of the Amendment proposed by the hon. Member for Montrose. He thought it most important to open to the natives of India the door to the very highest offices in the Government of that country; but at the same time it appeared to him that the mode by which his hon. Friend proposed to do this was liable to objection. His hon. Friend proposed to make it imperative on the Governor General to appoint two natives to the Legislative Council. He (Lord Jocelyn) could not concur with him in that opinion. It appeared to him that the better course would be to give to the Governor General the power of appointing natives of India to the Legislative Council, leaving it to him to exercise his discretion as to making those appointments or not. They had seen native gentlemen from India, to whom, he believed, in ability and character, few would be found equal in this country. He might refer for example to Ram Mohan Roy and Dwarkanauth Tajore, two gentlemen of the very greatest ability, and whose knowledge of the character of the people, of the laws and of the religion of their own country, would have made them a most valuable acquisition to the Legislative Assembly of India. He believed it was owing to the exertions of Ram Mohan Roy that Lord William Bentinck was enabled to carry into effect his great measure for the abolition of suttee, which had been so long a disgrace to our rule in India. He thought, therefore, it would have been an advantage if the right hon. Gentleman (Sir C. Wood) had expressly stated in the Bill that the Governor General should have the power to appoint natives to the Legislative Council, although he did not think it ought to be imperative on him to make such appointments. The right hon. Gentleman was perfectly justified in stating that no evidence had been given to justify the Government in proposing to Parliament that such a power should be given, and that it should be rendered imperative on the Governor General to make the appointments. In fact, the evidence went exactly in a contrary direction. When Sir George Clerk, whose knowledge of the natives of India was, perhaps, greater than that of any other man, and who was in favour of giving employment to the native population, was asked what was the grade in the service which he would propose should be assigned to the native population, he said that, perhaps, in the course of ten years they might look forward to being appointed to the office of collector. Yet no man was more earnest than Sir George Clerk for the improvement of the native population; and whenever he had the power he himself acted upon that system. With these views, therefore, he could not support the Amendment of his hon. Friend, although he cordially concurred with him in principle, and he trusted the time was not far distant when the natives of that great empire would be associated with us in carrying on its government, and thereby enabling us permanently to maintain our rule in that country.

MR. BLACKETT

said, he agreed with the noble Lord the Member for Lynn Regis (Lord Stanley), that, in proposing to appoint natives to the Legislative Council before they had been admitted into the civil service of India, was beginning at the wrong end; still he should support the Amendment, for this reason, that after admitting natives of India to be appointed to the Legislative Council, in consistency, and as a natural consummation, the right hon. Baronet the President of the Board of Control must admit them to the civil service. It was impossible to find an Englishman who had more decidedly pronounced in favour of English supremacy in all things than Lord Ellenborough, and yet both Lord Ellenborough and Mr. Elphinstone had strongly recommended, not that the natives should have seats in the Legislative Council, but that they should be members of a consultative council, which might be in attendance on the Governor General, to whom he might refer to ascertain the wishes and feelings of the natives on several points. It was impossible to look at the evidence before the Committee without being convinced that much difficulty had arisen in carrying into effect laws devised with the best intention, simply owing to the absence of means of obtaining a proper knowledge on the part of the Governor General in Council as to what the feelings of the natives really were.

SIR HENRY WILLOUGHBY

said, he did not think that it would be possible to maintain British power in India through native agency. Were hon. Gentlemen, he would ask, prepared to hand over the higher offices of the Indian army to natives? He thought the only answer could be in the negative, and he would apply the same principle to the offices in the Legislative Council and in the Executive Department, and reserve them for our own countrymen. Any one acquainted with the state of India—an empire comprising many nations, among whom the greatest hatred and jealousy existed—must be aware that the elevation of a Hindoo or a Mussulman to the Legislative Council would be likely to cause much excitement and ill feeling.

MR. MANGLES

said, he objected to the Amendment, on the ground that there was no feeling of nationality in India. Indeed, they might as well give a seat in that House to a Spaniard or a German, and call him a representative of England, as place a native of Bengal in the Legislative Council of India, and suppose that he would represent the feelings or the interests of the inhabitants of the Lower Provinces. There was no approach to a community of interest or of feeling among the natives of India. With regard to the complaint that the natives were not represented in the Legislative Council, he would say, without hesitation, that there were hundreds of European servants of the Company who knew far more of India and of its inhabitants than any of the natives themselves. The noble Lord (Viscount Jocelyn) was mistaken in supposing that Ram Mohan Roy had anything to do with the abolition of suttee. He had no doubt that due weight was given by the Legislative Council to the opinion of the natives; but would it be supposed, if natives had been in the Council when Lord William Bentinck proposed the abolition of suttee, or when Lord Wellesley sanctioned the law which prevented Hindoos from flinging their children to the sharks, that they would not have opposed those measures? He was ready to go even further than the President of the Board of Control in advocating the employment of the natives; and he regretted that persons engaged in the judicial service, and especially in the Courts of Principal Suddur Ameen, and Sudder Ameen, did not receive more adequate remuneration. He desired to see prizes given to the natives in such departments; but he did not think they were fit, or that they would for many years to come be fit, to be intrusted with legislative functions. He considered that it would be an act of unkindness to thrust them forward to positions for which they were unfit, and he hoped, therefore, that the Committee would not assent to the Amendment.

VISCOUNT JOCELYN

said, he begged to explain that Ram Mohan Roy gave an opinion which led to the abolition of the suttee law.

MR. DANBY SEYMOUR

said, he should support the Amendment of the hon. Member for Montrose, because he thought it ought to be made imperative on the Governor General to appoint natives to seats in the Legislative Council. In the last Charter one of the clauses gave leave to the Governor to employ natives, but that clause had remained a dead letter in consequence of the Company employing their own relations and friends. That charge had been publicly made in that House by a gentleman who had been a Legislative Councillor for many years, and also had been President of the Council of Education, and the charge had never been answered; and the same hon. Member said that their interest had been antagonistic to their duty, and that they had taken every means to prevent the people from becoming qualified for those high appointments. Now, when such imputations remained unanswered, he had been astonished to hear Members of the Government eulogise so highly the conduct of the Company. The right hon. Baronet the First Lord of the Admiralty had give n utterance to a sentiment which he trusted never to hear again in that House; for he avowed that India was kept as a means of plundering and subduing other kingdoms; and he declared that it would afford plenty of places for the middle classes. Such sentiments were very different from those contained in the celebrated Resolutions which had been twice affirmed, that it was contrary to the interest of Great Britain to conquer foreign kingdoms, or to bring home the spoils gained by robbery and war. With respect to the employment for the middle classes, the right hon. Baronet very much underrated them if he thought they would ever desert their country for any baits he might hold out to them. With regard to the hon. member for Guildford (Mr. Mangles), any one reading the evidence must clearly see how he was disposed to deal with the natives; for, whenever any sentiment was uttered favourable to them, a dozen questions followed for the purpose of impugning the testimony of the witness, or some sneering remark was made to efface the good impression made on the Committee. That was a specimen of the affection with which the people of India were treated; and he did not believe there was any country where a so-called paternal government treated the people with such a want of proper feeling as was shown by the Company. If our power in India was to be kept by such atrocious measures as these, to use the words of Sir Thomas Munro, "the sooner we are driven into the sea, the better would it be for the cause of humanity." Our danger consisted in following up such a policy as we had hitherto pursued, and not in departing from it, and whatever evils might happen in India, they would be attributable to the right hon. Baronet the President of the Board of Control, and the noble Lord the leader of that House. They were taking upon themselves an awful responsibility, and the House ought to pause before it sanctioned principles at variance with the highest Indian authorities, and coming from men who had proved themselves not to be infallible. It had been said that the evidence went to show that the natives were unfit to become members of the Legislative Council, and the evidence of Sir George Clerk had been referred to; but that evidence did not go to show that the promotions ought to stop at the office of collector, but to go higher. Mr. Halliday said, he knew native gentlemen as well qualified to fill high offices as any man of his own acquaintance, and that the people of India were generally against the government of the Company, and wished to see the power transferred to the Crown. The right hon. Gentleman the President of the Board of Control had also stated, that the evidence of Mr. Halliday was in favour of a double government; but he did not think that any one could possibly have been more astonished than Mr. Halliday himself, when he read that statement. He had never seen a sentence so twisted, and its meaning so perverted, as that quoted from Mr. Halliday's evidence as regarded the double government; and he must say that he thought, when Ministers descended to such a quibble, that they had a bad cause indeed to advocate. Mr. Mill said, in one of his works, that "a conquering nation, which does not amalgamate with the conquered, always ends in being vanquished." The former part of this passage described the state of things now existing in India, and as he could not think that that could last, he wished to see the change begun in time. Twenty-five years ago the natives had two distinguished friends in India—Sir Thomas Munro and Lord William Bentinck, the first of whom obtained for the natives employment in judicial offices, while the latter began the settlement of the North-west Provinces, in which the institutions of the natives first received some attention, and those provinces from being the worst had become the best governed in India. Both these experiments had thus been attended with the most signal success, and he contended that we should therefore proceed in the same course. Instead of doing so, however, the very opposite policy had been for the first time enunciated in that House by the Government in the course of this debate. He was glad to see that the number of the members of the Legislature was to be increased; but he thought that if the Government in India had been touched, it should have been more perfected than this Bill aimed at doing. At present the Governor General was never with his Council; the seat of government was the most unhealthy place in India; and the functions of the Legislative Council were delegated to five foreigners, not connected with the country by any ties, or going to live in it., but, on the contrary, anxious for the ship that should take them away from it for ever. It was impossible that any Council could be more unsatisfactorily constituted; nor could any scheme for the government of India be satisfactory which did not provide for the removal of the capital to a more healthy place, for the presence of the Governor General with the Council, and for the admission of natives to the seats in that Council.

MR. HUME

, in reply, said, he must still maintain that the evidence of Mr. Halliday showed the fitness of the natives for places in the Legislative Council, and that the appointment of two of their number to that body would have a most valuable moral effect, as a proof of our sympathy with them, of our desire to study their wishes and interests, and to ameliorate and elevate their position.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted."

The Committee divided:—Ayes 39; Noes 168: Majority 129.

Clause agreed to.

House resumed; Committee report progress.