HC Deb 04 July 1853 vol 128 cc1198-200

Order for Third Reading read.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill be now read the Third Time"

MR. COWAN

said, it was his duty to resist the further progress of this measure. The Bill, in point of fact, was intended to give the Government power to commence the business of life assurance, although its title would lead to a very different impression. Clause 10 gave power to the Commissioners for the Reduction of the National Debt to contract with any such person or persons as those named in other parts of the Bill for the payment of a sum of money at his or her death; and it would have been proper, or, at all events, if he might use such a term, more respectful to the House, before introducing such an important change in the law as this Bill contemplated, if the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated plainly and frankly what the intentions of the Government really were, in order that such intentions might be fully discussed and sanctioned by the House, if it conceived the measure would be advantageous to the community. He had a great objection to the Government becoming a trading community, or doing anything which could be carried out by a private company; but with regard to this especial mode of trading, he thought experience had proved that the manner of granting annuities by the Government was highly objectionable. The system of life assurance was at present carried so successfully, and withal so judiciously, by the ordinary life-assurance companies, that it would be most unwise to interfere with them; but this Bill proposed to make a charge on the Consolidated Fund; and since he objected to it on the ground of the interference to which he had just alluded, he should be glad to know from Mr. Speaker if this Bill ought not to have originated in a Committee of the whole House. Be that, however, as it might, he could not permit the Bill to proceed any further until he had received some more satisfactory explanation about it than he had yet heard, and he should therefore move that it be read a third time this day three months.

Amendment proposed, to leave out the word "now," and at the end of the Question to add the words "upon this day three months."

Question proposed, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question."

MR. APSLEY PELLATT

said, that as far as the principle of granting life annuities had been practised by the Government it had given satisfaction, and parties were anxious that the amount should be increased, and that 30l. should not be the limit. Of that principle he quite approved, but he could not help concurring in the observations of the hon. Member who had just sat down with respect to the proposal in the Bill as to life assurance, which was quite a different principle from that already in operation.

MR. J. WILSON

said, he must complain that the hon. Member for Edinburgh had not given notice of his Amendment; but he apprehended the hon. Gentleman's opposition to the Bill originated in a mistake or a misconception of the object of the measure. The only object of the Bill was to confer upon the Commissioners for the reduction of the national debt power to convert deposits in savings banks into annuities. The Commissioners certainly possessed this power under the existing law, but only to a limited extent; and the intention of this Bill was not to enable them to enter upon the general business of life assurance, which would be entirely beyond its scope, but simply to give them power to convert savings banks' deposits into annuities with more facility than the law at present allowed.

MR. COWAN

said, the explanation of the hon. Gentleman had not removed his objection to the Bill, and he should, therefore, be glad to have an answer to the question he had put to the Chair.

MR. SPEAKER

said, undoubtedly, if the Bill imposed a charge on the Consolidated Fund, it ought to have originated in a Committee of the whole House.

MR. COWAN

would beg to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman to the 12th clause.

MR. SPEAKER,

having looked at the clause, said he apprehended the Bill did not impose any additional charge upon the Consolidated Fund than the law already sanctioned.

MR. J. WILSON

said, the Bill certainly could not impose any additional charge on the Consolidated Fund, for, under the existing law, both the deposits, as well as the Government annuities, were chargeable to that fund.

MR. W. LOCKHART

moved the adjournment of the debate.

Motion made, and Question put, "That the Debate be now adjourned."

The House divided:—Aves 19; Noes 47: Majority 28.

Question, "That the word 'now' stand part of the Question," put, and agreed to.

Main Question put, and agreed to.

Bill read 3°, and passed.