HC Deb 01 July 1853 vol 128 cc1088-90
MR. J. WILSON

having moved that the House at its rising do adjourn to Monday next,

MR. FITZSTEPHEN FRENCH

said, he rose to call the attention of Her Majesty's Government to a statement reported to have been made by the noble Lord the Secretary for Foreign Affairs— That successive law officers of the Crown had given their opinion that the state of South Carolina was justified in imprisoning, as they now do, coloured seamen, subjects of Her Majesty;"— and to inquire whether in their future relations with that State, Her Majesty's Government were prepared to admit the legality of these proceedings? He had on a previous night pointed out the great grievances to which a portion of Her Majesty's subjects were liable in South Carolina. He would also point out to hon. Members the opinions of the Attorney General of the United States and of several of the Judges of South Carolina itself, against the legality of this practice in the latter State. The Supreme Government of the United States had also taken the same view, and had communicated their opinion upon the subject to the Government of South Carolina; and from the strong remonstrances that were made it was hoped that this unjust system would be given up. Indeed, promises to that effect were given by the State of South Carolina. The papers he had asked for on a former evening were granted; but it was reported that Her Majesty's Minister for Foreign Affairs had stated that successive law officers of the Crown had given it as their opinion that the conduct pursued by the authorities in South Carolina was perfectly justified by law and that this country had no legal claim to urge against it. He could not ask for those opinions to be laid upon the table of the House; but he could not avoid expressing his surprise at hearing that such a view of the case had been taken by the noble Lord on this subject. He would not believe that such an opinion was expressed by the Earl of Malmesbury, or by the noble Lord the Member for London; and as regarded the noble Earl at present at the head of Foreign Affairs, if that noble Earl had made such statement, he (Mr. French) could only say that he believed he had fallen into a great error upon the subject. He would ask the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) whether it was a fact that successive officers of the Crown had pronounced such an opinion, and whether such an opinion had been communicated to our representative in the United States?

LORD JOHN RUSSELL

I must, Sir, decline to enter into any discussion on this subject, or to state precisely what is the opinion of the law officers of the Crown. I must content myself by stating that the subject is one with respect to which great difficulty exists, and that it has been fully considered by the Government. I cannot of course say what has been the opinion of my noble Friend the Secretary for Foreign Affairs; but there is no doubt that it is not justifiable on the part of the State of South Carolina to imprison coloured seamen, subjects of Her Majesty. I say that that act is not morally justifiable. My noble Friend (Lord Palmerston) now the Secretary of State for the Home Department, and successive Foreign Secretaries, have made repeated remonstrances on this subject; but there is great difficulty, arising from the peculiar constitution of the United States, in obtaining a remedy, The only power with which we can deal is not the State of South Carolina, but the general federal Government of the country; we have no diplomatic relations with the separate States. When we come to the Secretary of State to the United States, it appears, first, that the power of Congress and the general power of legislating for particular States are limited, and that, there- fore, it is impossible for the federal Government to overrule the law of the State of South Carolina, without giving rise to opposition and resistance. But it is suggested that the only way in which we can obtain any redress is by putting an end to our treaties of trade and commerce with the United States. That of course is a very serious question; and Her Majesty's Government can only say, feeling the difficulty of the subject, and having no doubt whatever of the oppressive and unjust character of the law of South Carolina, that they will continue to use every endeavour, consistent with proper discretion, and a due regard to the law of nations, to obtain an alteration of this law.

MR. HUME

said, that the question was a very important one, and also a very difficult one to deal with in consequence of the peculiar constitution of the United States. He concurred in the opinion that the proceeding was an illegal one, because the question should be considered on the general principle of the liberty of British subjects, and not the circumstance that a man was black or white. Good feelings now existed between the two countries, and he thought that the Government acted properly in endeavouring to arrange the matter by friendly and amicable communication.

Motionagreed to; House at its rising to adjourn until Monday next.