HC Deb 25 February 1853 vol 124 cc670-92

House in Committee; Mr. Wilson Patten in the Chair.

(1.)"That a number of Land Forces, not exceeding 102,283 Men (exclusive of the Men employed in the Territorial Possessions of the East India Company), Commissioned and Non-Commissioned Officers included, be maintained for the Service of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland), from the 1st day of April, 1853, to the 31st day of March, 1854, inclusive."

MR. SIDNEY HERBERT

said, that in moving the Estimates for the Army for the ensuing year, he should perhaps best consult the convenience of the House by abstaining from going into any lengthened statement with respect to the number of men required for the service of the year. On the first night of the Session his noble I Friend (Lord John Russell) stated that it was the intention of the Government to take no vote for any increase of the num-ber of men in the Army, Navy, or Ordnance over the number proposed by the late Government; and, as that announce-ment appeared to be received with general acquiescence and satisfaction on the part of the House, he thought he should be uselessly taking up the time of the Commit-tee were he to enter into those reasons which induced the Government to maintain the number as it now stood. When he said there was no change in the number of men, of course he did not mean that positively there would be no alteration in the numbers, because, in fact, there was a slight increase, resulting from the return of a regiment of cavalry from India, which now augmented the aggregate number proposed to be maintained by between 200 and 300, and which affected the estimate by a charge, in connexion with some few other items, of 17,000l. He would now shortly state what were the heads of difference in the several votes before he proceeded to draw the attention of the Committee to some points which he thought worthy of their consideration. The changes in the first vote arose principally from the augmentations occasioned by the return of troops from India, to which he had previously adverted. Upon the staff there would be found an alteration resulting from reductions which the vigilance of the War Office was always endeavouring to effect, and also from the manner of placing on the Estimates certain charges. The hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) would recollect that in 1834 and 1835 there was a recommendation from the Committee of the Army and Navy Departments that for the future all governors of sinecure garrisons should be abolished, and that the proceeds of them should be devoted to the forming of a fund which should be distributed as rewards for distinguished services to officers who had been recommended for such rewards in consideration of their long services, and that that should continue augmenting till the whole sum reached the amount of 18,000l. The transfer of the vote for the Tower to the estimate he had mentioned, completed that sum of 18,000l., and for the future the proceeds of that department would be distributed in the shape of rewards for distinguished services among deserving officers. In the meantime it would be necessary to place on the staff a small effective force, which should perform the duties of the garrison. The reductions under the head of the foreign staff were effected by the diminution in the troops in Africa, Bermuda, Australia, Canada, and, generally speaking, in all the British colonies. The vote for the public departments would be found almost in the same state as it was last year; but under the head of postage there was an increase of 5,900l., which, he feared, was an indication of a large increase of business, arising partly from arrangements with respect to the militia, and calculated, he apprehended, to aug- ment in a future year the charge for the War Office, which in the present estimates exhibited a decrease. Under the head of the Royal Military College there was a slight decrease, and under that of the Royal Military Asylum some small augmentation, arising from an increase of the staff for the training schools, and one or two items of that description. There was one point in connexion with this vote to which he wished to call the attention of the Committee. It would be recollected that there was some complaint, that when the good-conduct pay was first established by Lord Howick, sergeants were excluded from all participation in those rewards. He confessed that, in his opinion, they had no title to that augmentation. Good-conduct pay was a commutation for additional pay for length of service, which the privates had previously enjoyed, but which the non-commissioned officers had never had. Clearly, therefore, they could have no right to a payment given in exchange for advantages which they had never possessed. When, however, the second change took place in the good-conduct pay, the advantages to the men were increased over what was first contemplated. Then the sergeants had some claim; and he would say that there was no body of men to whom the army owed so much for the formation of its regiments and the maintenance of discipline as to its non-commissioned officers, and that no army possessed such effective non-commissioned officers as ours. He proposed, therefore, to increase by 2,000l. a year the sum for distribution in good-conduct rewards to non-commissioned officers; but that increase was not to be made all at once; for if all the grants were made in one year, there would be a stagnation for many years to come for want of vacancies; the grant, therefore, was to be increased annually 250l. until the increase was 2,000l. As to the vote for half-pay, for general officers' widows, and foreign officers, there was this year, as there had been for some years past, a very considerable reduction, though it was not so large as usual; but, although there was that diminution in the half-pay, there was an increase on the out-pension of Chelsea of 8,997l. It was the first increase of that charge that had taken place for several years; but he trusted, however, that that would be the last of the kind. These were the principal heads of difference between the Estimates of the present and of last year. His right hon. Friend the First Lord of the Admiralty pointed out the other night, in moving the Navy Estimates, how great had been the diminution in the charge for the necessary force, while we were able to maintain as large an efficient force in number. That was not peculiar to the Navy. In the Army, he thought, he could show that that had been carried to as great an extent. It must be recollected that the War Office had been occupied for a long succession of years by some of the most sagacious administrators this country had produced—Lord Palmerston, Sir Henry Parnell, Lord Howick, Mr. Ellice, Sir John Hobhouse, Lord Hardinge, and Lord Panmure. These were men who had devoted great care and attention to all the details of the department over which they presided, and they had especially met with great success in the efforts they made, first, in increasing the comfort and well-being of the soldier; and, secondly, in reducing the expenditure of that department. In 1835, which was always taken as the pattern year of economy, the whole estimate was 5,907,782l.; this year it was 6,025,016l. There was an apparent increase in the latter estimate over the former of 117,234l.; but in order to institute a fair comparison with the year 1835, they ought to deduct from the latter sum all those items which, since 1835, had been added to the Estimates by the recommendations of Commissions, or of the military authorities, or of the Secretary at War. The additional items put in the Estimates since 1835 amounted to 250,000l.; and, if that were deducted, it would show a reduction of 132,766l. as compared with the Estimate of 1835; but then for this smaller sum we maintained 21,000 men more than in 1835. That was a most signal proof of vigilance in the administration of this department—that in eighteen years the expenditure should be reduced, and yet for the lesser expenditure 21,000 men more should be maintained. It might be said he was taking items of expenditure which it was impossible to avoid, and which were necessary for the efficiency of the Army; but he could assure the Committee that the increase had been, to a great extent, on the non-effective part of the Estimate. For instance, they had to take away the charge for postage, which was a fictitious sum, as it was only paid to another department, but it swelled the Estimate 35,000l. Then there was an addition for black and foreign pensioners of 12,000. The organisation of the enrolled pensioners cost about 45,000l. The poundage for the Chelsea pensioners, which amounted to 50,000l., was given up by Lord Panmure, and, taking out these large items, and leaving the additional items for schools, the new system of prisons, the barrack libraries, and other things intended for the benefit and welfare of the soldiers, they would come to the same result—that in 1853 we were maintaining 21,000 men more than in 1835 for a less sum than was spent then. He thought he could show that that had not been done entirely by the reduction of half-pay. The cost of each man in 1835 was 42l. 15s. l1d.; in the present year it was only 40l. 3s. 6d. That included the cost of the officers; exclusive of officers, the cost of each man was little more than 30l. So that the cost of each private, including the cost of the officers commanding him, and clothing and producing him in the field, had been reduced 2l. 12s. 5d. since 1835. And that had been effected without in any way curtailing the comforts of the men. He did not believe that at any period had the soldier been more comfortable than at the present moment. His hon. Friend behind him (Mr. Rich) had said that evening that the service was not popular. He very much doubted that. Whether it was that the short service was beginning to tell, or the increased comforts, or the diminished punishments, he did not know, but it was certain that recruiting was never more easy, and never produced a better class of recruits than at the present time, though 50,000 men were being raised simultaneously for the militia. Since 1835, too, the stoppage for rations abroad had been lowered. The soldier had complained, and justly, that on some stations, where provisions were notoriously cheap, he was charged a very high rate; but the principle was sound, for in other places the provisions were just as dear. The stoppage, however, was pitched too high, and a lower rate had therefore been substituted, which was universal throughout our colonies. That had given satisfaction to the men, and was not, he believed, except comparatively with the previous system, any loss to the public. The good-conduct pay had been increased— the whole increase, as it now stood, was 65,000l. a year. Barrack libraries had also been established, and they were most useful. The first was established in 1840. There were now 150 libraries, with 16,000 subscribers, and consisting of 117,000 volumes. By a late arrangement officers were permitted to subscribe, and had the use of the libraries, but, as it was clear their sharing in them might deter the men from subscribing, a restriction was put upon them to prevent the clashing of any interests in that respect, and leave the men perfect access to their own libraries. The men paid one penny a month; the officers one day's pay every quarter, and both they and the soldiers were able to borrow the books to read in their own quarters, but not so as to interfere with their duties. Regimental schools were established in 1846, and he must here say he owed a debt of gratitude to his noble Friend Lord Panmure for the manner in which he had carried out the plan. It originated with himself (Mr. S. Herbert) before he left office; but every one who knew anything of administration knew how much easier it was to draw out a plan upon paper than to carry it into practice. At first the plan met with a great deal of prejudice and objection; but, by a steady perseverance, all the difficulties had been removed, and he was happy to say that, so far from objecting to them, there was now a great anxiety among commanding officers to secure properly-trained schoolmasters for their schools. The general establishment had been made in this way: There was a large school for the orphans of soldiers. It was conducted entirely by commissioned and non-commissioned officers; but it was considerably behind the standard of all schools of that class, and had therefore been put upon an entirely new footing. A training school for masters was grafted upon that, and the persons who came there to train schoolmasters were practised in teaching. He would now read a short statement upon the result of that system:— There are now employed with different corps fifty-eight masters, and two on sick leave, and sixteen assistant-masters. They teach both the children and the non-commissioned officers and privates; and all the reports, as well from commanding officers as from the Inspector General, describe their labours as very beneficial. Indeed, wherever the commanding officer gives his countenance to the arrangement, the men attend school in such numbers as test the physical as well as the intellectual powers of the masters severely. In the 77th Regiment, for example, now quartered at Weedon, the school roll shows an attendance of not fewer than 538 adults. The 35th Regiment sends 371 to school, the 82nd Regiment, 270. Indeed, the lowest attendance in the infantry, that of the 59th depot, does not fall short of 51. It is worthy of remark, that except in the case of recruits, all this attendance is voluntary; and it is all paid for. The recruits are required by regulation to attend till dismissed drill. For a time they not unfrequently lay aside school with drill; but in almost every instance those who have made even moderate progrens come back after an interval of a few months. The attendance of the recruits, so long as their drilling lasted, was the only compulsory attendance. After that time it was voluntary—all contributed—and he thought it was a very gratifying testimony to the taste among the men for acquiring knowledge that would better fit them for the duties they had to discharge. He had great confidence in the present system, and thought it had contributed, among other circumstances, to that increased good conduct which was so remarkable among all ranks of the Army. As another proof of the increasing comfort and well-being of the men, he would just allude to the return of the deposits in the savings banks. They were established in 1844. There were then 1,890 depositors, and the amount deposited was 14,849l. In 1852 the number of depositors was 9,447; the amount deposited was 111,920l. There was also a great diminution of punishments in the Army simultaneous with this. In 1838 the number of corporal punishments was 879. Of course the strength of the Army at different periods would influence the value of the returns; but since that year there had been a diminution. In 1843 the number was 620; in 1846, 461; in 1849, 311; in 1850,247; in 1851,206; in 1852 the return was only for the troops at home, and half the force on foreign stations; but the number of corporal punishments had diminished to 96. It was not because there was a greater laxity of discipline that that change had occurred; but there were other modes of punishment—such, for example, as military prisons—and, of course, there had been a great increase in the number of those punishments; but the question was, had there been an increase in the number of offences and of persons tried by courts-martial? In 1838 the number of persons tried, in proportion to the effective force, was I in 11½ Now it was only I in 16. The number of persons admitted to the military prisons in. 1850 was 3,565, in 1851 it was 3,266, and last year it was 3,313, being a slight increase over the preceding year, but not greater than the increase of the effective strength of the Army. He believed that the system of military prisons had answered extremely well. It was conducted upon a principle which had been occasionally questioned in that House, and was sometimes extremely severe; but it must be recollected that the object they had in the imprisonment of a soldier was different from that which they had in the imprisonment of a civilian, for every day the punishment was protracted they were giving punishment to the well-behaved comrade of the prisoner. The diet, therefore, during imprisonment, was low, and the labour exacted severe; but it was found that the health of the men did not suffer. There was but one other point upon this subject with respect to the well-being of the Army in general, to which he would call the attention of the Committee, and that was the health of the Army. He believed it was at no former period so healthy as that moment. Some years ago there was a most fearful mortality from the peculiar stations in which some of the barracks were placed. Lord Howick devoted great attention to the remedy of that evil, and with great success; and the result was that the return up to last March, being the last return made, showed that the health of the Army was better at that time than it had ever been before. Taking Gibraltar, Malta, and the Ionian Islands, being the whole of the Mediterranean force, the mortality for the year ending the 31st of March, 1852, was 12 7–10ths in 1,000; the average for the thirty years previously to 1846 being 19 l–10th. In the American colonies, which were always very favourable, the proportion was 14 in 1,000; the average for the thirty years previously to 1846 was 15. For St. Helena, New South Wales, Van Diemen's Land, and New Zealand, he found the average was 19 l–10th in 1,000; but as to the Cape of Good Hope the average was disturbed by the mortality arising during the operations of the Kafir war. The return for the Cape of Good Hope, however, exclusive of the war, was 24 in 1,000; hut that he understood was not very high—it was much less than for the French Army in Algeria. The average of New Zealand was 12 in 1,000; of New South Wales and Van Die-men's land 9 1–10th, and of St. Helena 6 two-tenths. For the West Indies, up to March last, exclusive of Jamaica, the mortality was 22 1–10th in 1,000; for Jamaica it was 44. Since that time the yel- low fever had broken out in Barbadoes, and there was this singular circumstance in the last attack of this disease, that it had come in a manner quite different from that in which it usually came: it did not originate in the island, and it had had much more effect among the civilians than among the Army; and again it had been much more fatal among the officers than among the men, contrary to what was usually the case. But upon the whole the mortality had not been so high as 6 per cent, and he did not know of any other instance in which the mortality had been so small. Measures had been taken immediately on the outbreak of the fever, and the medical officers had adopted all means in their power, both as to the construction of the barracks and as to drainage, to remove the causes that might be thought to have had such an effect. As to the West Indies generally, exclusive of Barbadoes, there had been far less mortality than in any year before. At the Mauritius and Ceylon the mortality had diminished from 43 6–10ths, the average of the past thirty years, to 22⅓ per 1,000. It was in the East Indies and Hongkong that the chief loss of the British troops was usually to be found; but even there the past year presented highly favourable results, the mortality in the three presidencies having fallen from 74 3–18ths, the average of the past thirty-five years, to 48 5–10ths, per 1,000; and that at Hongkong, usually the most unhealthy of our stations, from 150 per 1,000 to 69. Arrangements, he might add, with reference to Honkong, were in progress for keeping a portion of the troops on shipboard in the harbour during periods of sickness—a measure which had always been attended with the best possible effect, when facilities could be obtained for their accommodation. Accounts had, indeed, been received by him from India just before he came down to the House, which showed that the proportion of mortality there among the troops was still more favourable than he had just stated, the rate in Bengal being only 2 per cent. The same accounts fully confirmed the statement which had been made that evening by the hon. Member for Honiton (Sir J. Hogg) as to the healthy condition of our army at Rangoon; for it appeared that the mortality among those troops at the latest moment was under 4 per cent. This improvement in the health of our troops was, in great degree, the result of improvements in their medical treatment; but it was also largely attributable to the improvement in the habits of the men themselves—to the diminution—very great, though still susceptible of extension—of drunkenness, which had hitherto so widely undermined the constitutions of our soldiers, especially in tropical climates. Having thus recapitulated the various measures which had been adopted of late years by the Government for improving our soldiers, he would proceed to state that the next great object of attention was to make our Army as efficient as possible for the service of the field. There was no doubt that hitherto we had been far too remiss in this very essential matter; that we had been in the habit of using our Army far too much as a police force in aid of the civil magistrates, spreading it for this purpose in separate detachments all over the country, so that the men had had no opportunities for field practice, or scarcely a chance of seeing two regiments brigaded together, with a view to the acquisition of a knowledge of manoeuvres on anything like a large scale. In Ireland alone there were as many as 200 stations, occupied by about 20,000 troops, and in England and the Colonies the same thing to a great extent occurred. He had, however, a confident hope that he should be able before long to effect such a concentration of our troops in this country as would remedy this great defect, and render our Army thoroughly effective for any contingency. There was a great difference between the Army and the Navy in one important respect, namely, that the Navy was so nearly in the same condition of preparation in peace as in war, that the occurrence of war required little more than the shotting of guns, and so on, to place it in a state of readiness; whereas the Army, in peace, is placed in circumstances quite different from those which constitute the conditions of war, and as the matter stood at present, was distributed about, here and there and everywhere, in small detachments, without any opportunities of exercising in masses. This very great defect he proposed to remedy. A very small sum would suffice to provide a station where there could be ball practice with the Minie rifle; noncommissioned officers, and a certain proportion of men from each regiment, would there be enabled to acquire the practice of rifle firing at various distances, and, with this practice thoroughly attained, would then return to their respective regiments, and communicate that scientific practice to their comrades; the whole Army would thus by degrees be brought into one system of effective firing. In the summer it was proposed to form an encampment somewhere in the country, whither various regiments would proceed for the purposes of that instruction in which, as he had said, our troops were at present so very deficient. From this measure he anticipated a large amount of advantage, and, he might add, it would not give the less satisfaction to the country that it would be attended with very slight additional expense; the movement of troops to the encampment involving, in point of fact, no more outlay than the ordinary change of troops from one station to another. The increased wear and tear, and the additional allowances to officers and men, the main sources of greater outlay, would bear no proportion whatever to the public benefit of the result. As to arms, Lord Hardinge had for some time past been taking the greatest pains to procure the most effective weapons that science could invent; he had sent to America, and to various parts of the Continent, for the most approved specimens of arms, and he had applied all the knowledge, experience, and science at his disposal to test their various merits, and ascertain their defects. As the result of this investigation, Lord Har-dinge had now full confidence that he should be shortly able to place in the hands of our soldiers a weapon lighter, and equally efficient, in every respect, with the Minie rifle. By these various means the Government had every expectation that they should, ere long, place our Army in the highest possible state of efficiency. Our standing Army was now, as it had always been, comparatively small in numbers; but there was no reason why it should not be so armed, so provided, so trained, as to become even beyond what it was now, perfect in its efficiency. The United States, for instance, kept a small standing Army, but the arm selected for that Army were those which required the highest amount of training, and the greatest time for preparation, in order to be used with efficiency, namely, the artillery force. We had the finest possible materials at our disposal in every respect; and it should be no fault of the Government if those materials were not applied to the best purpose, considering, as they did, that an Army for which the people contributed so largely should be placed in the most thorough—in a perfect state of efficiency. So long as he had the honour to hold his present office, he would apply his most vigilant attention to the expenditure within his department, so that it might produce the greatest possible amount of advantage to the country; and so that the least amount possible should be wasted in that dead weight which had been found so materially to interfere with the completeness and vigour of the active force. By the course he had thus outlined to the Committee, he fully believed that the British Army would be before long rendered more thoroughly efficient than it had ever been. Trusting that the Committee would excuse the extent of details into which his explanation had led him, and that no difficulty would be interposed in the way of the proposition he was about to place in the hands of the Chairman, he begged leave to propose to the Committee the first Vote.

MR. HUME

said, he heard the general statement of the right hon. Gentleman with great satisfaction. No man had ever manifested more anxiety than the right hon. Gentleman had that the character of our troops for discipline and good conduct should stand high, and he considered that the various improvements in the management of the Army stated by his right hon. Friend would eminently conduce to this great object. He was especially rejoiced to learn that there was such a marked diminution in the number of corporal punishments inflicted. He considered that Lord Panmure had introduced many excellent regulations into the force. The good-conduct pay was a great advantage. He hoped that, in addition to the barrack libraries, the officers of the various regiments would be instructed to provide the men with various rational recreations to occupy their leisure hours; and he conceived, further, that much good might be done by enabling the soldiers, as well as the rest of the community, to have readier and larger access to our various literary, scientific, and artistic establishments. He should be glad to hear from his right hon. Friend, in connexion with his gratifying statement as to the diminution of drunkenness in the Army, what had been the result, of the recent alteration in the canteen system; and also, whether steps were being taken to improve the present still very unsatisfactory condition of the barracks. At the Plymouth barracks, which he visited about three years ago, and where about 3,000 men were generally located, there was a great want of accommodation; the men had to wash in open sheds, and there was no attention to the comforts and decency of married men. Moral improvements and good discipline ought to go together, and then the lash would be needless. He entirely concurred with the right hon. Gentleman as to the inexpediency and impolicy of employing our soldiers as police; and he trusted that the noble Secretary for the Home Department would take care that every county provided itself, as it ought to do under the Police Act, with the full police force required for the aid of the civil magistrate within its limits. In many of the counties where police were more needed than in others, they had none at all; the magistrates relying on the military. This was unfair, as throwing an expense which ought to fall on those districts on the country at large. He had supported the establishment of the police in the metropolis, and he believed that the poor benefited more by their services than the rich. If the police establishment was to be maintained, let it be made effective, by being extended to all parts of the country. Magistrates must be taught to depend more than they had hitherto done on the civil force. He was glad to hear that, although we had now 21,000 men more than in 1835, it was at no increase of cost; but he still considered the number of men proposed altogether beyond the necessity of the case. It was quite lamentable that the paroxysm of utterly absurd fear that had come over us should induce us to sanction the maintenance of a standing Army larger by 20,000 men than the Duke of Wellington considered sufficient for our defence. He had frequently urged a reduction of the Army; but there were such extraordinary changes in the public feeling that it was difficult to effect any alteration. There was just now a paroxysm of alarm, which he considered was wholly unfounded. But this increase in the number of men necessitated an increase of expense in other directions. While the Army had been increased one-fourth, the Navy and artillery had been doubled; and the aggregate of the Estimates now amounted to 17,000,000l. or 18,000,000l. He was confident there was no necessity for this large increase; but he yet thought it better to be over-prepared than to be deficient in that respect. His plan would be to bring in the vessels of war from the Pacific and the African and American coasts. There were far more ships than were needed in South America. He objected to having such an enormous body of men in arms, taken from their industrial occupations. For the purpose of defence it would be far better to enrol volunteers, who were actuated by a national feeling. A thousand of such would be worth three thousand militiamen, taken from the lowest ranks, and paid at the rate of a shilling a day. The burden of these increased Estimates would fall on the landed interest; for, with the existing facilities for emigration, the working classes would not stay at home to be taxed so heavily. Let the country gentlemen consider this, and reflect what their situation would be should emigration proceed to a much greater extent. The land could not run away. With the existing large military establishments in every country of Europe, the vitals of the Continent were almost eaten up. Nothing could be more expedient in such circumstances than the scheme proposed by his hon. Friend near him (Mr. Cobden), and for which he had been so much ridiculed—that of a friendly communication between the different Governments with a view to disarmament. But his hon. Friend had not the credit of originating this proposition, absurd as it was said to be, for the Earl of Aberdeen, in 1846, had advocated the same thing. He said that he should have no confidence for the security of peace until he saw a large reduction in the armies of Europe. Sir Robert Peel had also urged the same view. Lord Aberdeen said that he was disposed to dissent from the maxim which had received a very general assent, that the best security for the continuance of peace was to be prepared for war; that that was a maxim which might have applied to the nations of antiquity, but did not apply to modern nations, when the facilities for preparations were very great; and that with respect to the stability of peace he should have no hope till he saw a great reduction in the military establishments, which ought to be the object of all Governments, but especially of the Government of this country. His hon. Friend (Mr. Cobden) was abused for recommending precisely what Lord Aberdeen in his place had recommended. What was the present state of our military establishments? The regular Army consisted of 155,000 men and officers—the pensioners, the dockyard establishments, and the yeo- manry of 42,000—the coast-guard service, the Irish constabulary, and the English police of 31,000, and the enrolled militia of 65,000; making, altogether, 293,000 men who were taken away from the productive industry of the country. By the Act of last year, 40,000 more might be added to these, so as to increase the Army reserves to 120,000. When all the additions which had been allowed had been made to these forces, they would be increased to 358,500 men. With respect to the pay of both officers and men in the Army, he did not think that they were paid too much, but considered that the expenses of the staff might be considerably reduced. A considerable saving might also be effected by the union in one department of the Army and Ordnance. It was calculated that there were in Europe at the present moment 7,000,000 of men capable of bearing arms, and that of these 4,000,000, or more than one-half, were in arms, and paid by the rest. Let the Committee think of the double evil that such a system created—the abstraction of such a number of able-bodied men on the one side, and the abstraction of the fruits of the labour of others to maintain them on the other. He would not, however, oppose the proposition, but he would enter his protest against keeping up these large establishments. He willingly admitted the good government of the Army; he believed that its administration was as well conducted as it was possible for an Army to be; and he could assure the right hon. Gentleman, the Secretary at War, that he fully appreciated the importance of the improvements he proposed, and he would suggest to him the necessity of still further carrying out those arrangements for the reduction of the half-pay list which Lord Hardinge commenced when he was Secretary at War.

COLONEL SIBTHORP

said, he had listened to the observations with which the hon. Member for Montrose always favoured that House when any question was brought forward relating to the Army or Navy, although he should have hoped, from the assent which the hon. Member appeared to give to the Estimates of the Secretary at War, that the Committee would have been spared from his long and laborious dissertation, which had, after all, ended in smoke. The hon. Gentleman had called attention to the inconvenience of the present barracks, and the inadequacy of proper accommodation for soldiers. He (Co- lonel Sibthorp) was ready to grant anything to the soldiers which could add to their comfort; but he wondered whether the hon. Gentleman would be prepared to allow the additional expense which would be necessary for carrying out the recommendations he had made. He (Colonel Sibthorp) was a friend to economy, but he would not deny the soldier the comforts he had a right to claim; and, therefore, he was disposed to give any grant that might be necessary for that purpose. The hon Gentleman had talked about interference with the industry of the country. He would tell him what had interfered with the industry of the country. It was that infernal system of free trade that had interfered with the industry of the country. He was not in favour of free trade, and giving a preference to the foreigner over his own countrymen. If the hon. Gentleman talked of interference with native industry, let them keep out the foreigner and the free-trade system, and he went so far as to say—expel every Member out of this House who was in favour of that system. Let the country gentleman alone, and they would take care of those who placed confidence in them, and looked up to them for protection in time of need, and not to the foreigner who robbed them. Remember the Crystal Palace. He never went through the city of London but he heard respectable tradesmen tell him, "We cannot do anything, Sir." "Why?" "The foreigner steps in and sells his articles cheap, but nasty." He knew it from his own experience in some instances. He had offered, and would offer, to the English tradesman double, aye, and treble as much more for the articles he sold, because he felt that the English tradesmen was honest, and he could find him when he wanted him, than he would give to the foreigner for all the trash he brought to this country. He would bring it here, and sell it here, and then he ran away and could not be found after he had cheated you. He caught something from the hon. Gentleman about the Peace Society. He was of opinion that the members of the Peace Society would be the very first, if their mills were in danger, to call out for the military whom they abused, to save them. But they would be found either low in the cellar, or under the bed. They would have no objection to pay the military then, but they would keep out of the way of danger. Peace Society! In his opinion, directly and indirectly, they were encouraging everything that was adverse to peace. They were firebrands and faggots wherever they went, and he would rather see the devil in his house than a member of the Peace Society. He thanked the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary at War for the able manner in which he had brought forward the Estimates. Although he might differ with the right hon. and hon. Gentlemen on the Treasury bench, they would not find an opponent, but a regular supporter, in him of all those measures, whatever might be their politics, which might best contribute to the security, welfare, and dignity of the country.

Vote agreed to.

(2.) 3,625,783l., Charge of Land Forces.

MR. HUME

said, he begged to put a question to the right hon. Secretary at War, with regard to the recruiting service. A Committee had been appointed, which had given a report, but there was considerable difference of opinion on the subject. The expense, 90,000l., was very great, and he thought some economical alterations might be effected.

MR. SIDNEY HERBERT

said, there had been two Committees appointed since the one referred to by the hon. Gentleman. Lord Panmure had, after much consideration, decided against a suggestion made to one of the Committees, with regard to the employment of pensioners in the recruiting service. From the evidence he had received, he was inclined to be of the same opinion, because, if men belonged to no particular regiment, the recruits they enlisted would not be as efficient as they were when each regiment recruited for itself.

Vote agreed to.

(3.) 162,897l. General Staff Officers.

SIR DE LACY EVANS

said, he wished to draw attention to the expediency and economy of the institution of a lectureship or professorship of military surgery in the King's College, or in one of the medical schools in London; and a similar establishment in the University or at the College of Surgeons in Dublin; and to suggest the removal to the metropolis of the Museum of Preparations of Diseases of Foreign Climates now in Fort Pitt, Chatham, where it was comparatively useless and inaccessible to medical students for the Army and Navy. The expense attending the establishment of the lectureships to which he referred would be extremely small, and favourable opinions had been expressed by high authorities as to their probable effect. For the want of adequate instruction to medical officers, the nation had wasted large sums of money, and many lives had been lost. Much also remained to be done with regard to the improvement of the sanitary condition of barracks.

MR. SIDNEY HERBERT

said, it was quite true that there was no professorship of military surgery either at Dublin or London, and that such an institution existed only at Edinburgh. He was not, however, aware by what funds that professorship was endowed, for it did not stand upon the Estimates at all. Recognising the importance of the proposition made, he was not prepared to state how far the proposal which the hon. and gallant Officer had made could be carried out with economy, and at the same time with due regard to efficiency. The removal of the Museum from Fort Pitt would certainly render it accessible to a larger number of persons, and he did not say that such a removal was impossible, but at present he could not state whether any place could be obtained in London for the purpose of that museum. With regard to the institution of professorships he would make inquiry, and until he had done so he should be unable to answer the question. With regard to barracks, as soon as the pressure of works now in progress was at an end, he hoped to be able to effect some improvements in the old barracks.

Vote agreed to.

(4.) 98,464l. Public Departments.

MR. HUME

said, he wished to know on what precedent the Commander-in-Chief was to receive the allowance of 3,458l. which appeared on the Votes?

MR. SIDNEY HERBERT

said, that allowance was in lieu of a larger sum which it had been usual to pay his predecessor.

MR. HUME

thought that when the Duke of Wellington was deceased, the Government would have attended to what had been recommended by the Committee upstairs, namely, that some change should take place with regard to the allowance in question, favourable to the finances of the country. He also wished to know why the soldiers were not withdrawn from Australia, now that that colony had obtained self-government?

MR. SIDNEY HERBERT

said, that by an arrangement entered into with the Australian colonies by the late Government, the colonies were to pay all the maintenance of the troops stationed there, with the single exception of the cost of their arms.

Vote agreed to; as were also the two following Votes:—

(5.) 16,888l. Royal Military College.

(6.) 18,020l. for the Royal Military Asylum, and Hibernian Military School.

(7.) 88,000l. Volunteer Corps.

MR. HUME

said, there were no Estimates to which he should be more disposed to object than these. One half of those who entered these corps did so for the purpose of getting coats and uniforms to produce an effect in ball-rooms, and they ought to pay for the privilege of wearing them. He was for regular troops, and if they wanted an addition to the forces, why not raise a couple more regiments?

SIR DE LACY EVANS

said, that offers were made about a year ago to the late Government of the service of certain volunteer rifle corps, which appeared to be favourably received; at all events he had not been able to elicit from the late Home Secretary that there was any objection to the acceptance of such service. During the last war the principle of enrolling and employing volunteers, it would be remembered, was carried on to a considerable extent, and he believed they had been found a very useful aid in the defences of the country. He wished to ask the noble Lord who now held the office of Home Secretary whether the present Government proposed to avail themselves of the offers of voluntary services to which he had alluded?

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, it was better to do one thing at a time. They were now engaged in organising a militia, and he was desirous of postponing the consideration of volunteer corps or rifle companies until they had got the militia well and completely organised. He believed the utmost reliance might be placed upon the spirit of the people of this country whenever their volunteer services might be required; but as the corps alluded to, however much of a volunteer character they might have, were attended with a considerable degree of expense, it might be as well to postpone the consideration of the subject, at all events for the present year.

MR. HUME

said, he did not think the noble Lord was happy in his explanation. We wanted the nation to be defended at as little expense as possible, and the noble Lord did not seem to be aware that the militia was costing the country 100,000l. a year, which was taken from the industrious classes, and obliged them to continue the soap and other objectionable taxes. Why should not the noble Lord try if he could get these volunteers? He thought every man bound to contribute to the defence as well as to the taxation of the country. If Surrey and Middlesex required a certain number of riflemen, let the people of those counties turn out and choose their own officers. They would then create a corps with hearts and hands ready in case of need to defend their country, and one which in his opinion would be much better than this paltry, miserable corps at an expense of 88,000l.

SIR GEORGE PECHELL

said, he had understood that of all the jobs the noble Lord had undertaken, the formation of the militia was that in which he had best succeeded, and that thousands of men more than sufficient were ready to be enrolled, and only anxious to get at the French. But on looking at a return laid on the table a short time ago, he found that in Kent and Sussex, those counties which they were told were most in danger, only about half the quota of militiamen had been raised. In his county (Sussex) he knew that the labouring classes were all well employed and by no means desirous of volunteering into the militia, nor were the inhabitants generally afraid of a French invasion. In Brighton, especially, they were far more afraid of the militia than of the French. He wished to know when an amended return would be presented, showing the number enrolled in those counties to the present date.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

begged to say that both the counties of Sussex and Kent would be very amply represented so far as the militia was concerned. The numbers were not completed yet, but he believed the enlistment was going on as favourably as could be anticipated.

MR. EVELYN

said, in the county that he had the honour to represent (Surrey), the gentry had met and proposed to form themselves into a rifle corps; and, if that proposition had been encouraged, the country would no doubt have had an efficient corps without its costing them one farthing of expense. He hoped the noble Viscount would take the subject into his consideration, and that the present Government would be disposed to allow the formation of this corps.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, he did not mean to undervalue the use of volun- teer corps, but, being pressed, he must say he could not consider them as nearly so efficient for the purposes of national defence as a regiment of militia. That was the view taken in this country during the war which began in 1803; in the beginning of that war volunteer corps were set on foot to a considerable extent; they were gradually diminished, and a local militia was substituted. Who were the persons likely to form these volunteer corps? They were tradesmen, professional men, clerks, and apprentices—men accustomed to a comfortable existence and to take care of themselves—not men accustomed to rough work. These individuals were not calculated to lead the life of soldiers, and if called out to live in camp, to sleep in the fields, and be exposed to the rain and inclement weather, many of them would be soon fitter subjects for the hospital than the field. Moreover, they would all have to leave their homes and business, and be carried to the coast to serve with the regular Army. He fully agreed with those who thought volunteer corps might be very useful as the police of their districts, and, no doubt, also in seaport towns they might be useful as a means of natural defence; but he did not think that, as part of a permanent system of military organisation, you could reckon upon such a force as you could upon the militia.

MR. WALPOLE

said, the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Sir G. Pechell) had spoken of the militia as if that force were much less than might have been expected. It must be remembered, however, that the machinery for raising the militia had to be put in force during the month of August, and that before the end of September six counties had completed their quota, while by the end of December, when the return which had been printed on the subject was laid upon the table of the House, notwithstanding the apprehensions of those who opposed this measure, no fewer than, he believed, 35,000 men were raised, the most extraordinary instance of recruiting an effective military force, as he trusted the militia would become, which could be found in the annals of this country. He had been reproached for discouraging volunteer efforts; but he thought he had given sound reasons for the course which the late Government had pursued upon this subject. They were in effect the same as those which had been just given by the noble Viscount—that the object in raising the militia was to obtain, not a changeable but a permanent force in the country, and one upon which we could permanently rely —a body of men who could not retire from the service whenever it pleased them to do so. He would, however, remind the hon. and gallant General (Sir De L. Evans) that the Government of Lord Derby was about to sanction the establishment of volunteer rifle corps. There were only three or four which applied for Government sanction; but, before giving it, he had required of those regiments that they should submit themselves to all the regulations laid down by the Act of Parliament, and to certain necessary restrictions. Three out of the four regiments bad, however, declined to embody themselves on those terms; and this, he conceived, did not encourage the Government to go on.

SIR DE LACY EVANS

said, he still thought the country would not understand why the establishment of this force should be discouraged.

MR. HUME

said, the answer of the noble Viscount was not very satisfactory. If the country ought to be prepared, as they had been told, why should not the voluntary service be general?

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

said, the persons who composed all volunteer forces were totally different from those who composed the bulk of the privates of the militia regiments. They were not, as he had before said, persons who were fitted for the hardships of military life, and could not be carried away from their private occupations and from their homes to do permanent service, without serious inconvenience. If they were expected to march out, and encamp, and serve in the field, what would become of the business of the country?

MR. HUME

thought the noble Lord was blowing hot and cold; for he said before that in case of invasion business would be put a stop to, and every man would fly to arms.

Vote agreed to; as were the following Votes:—

(8.) 20,250l, Rewards for Distinguished Services.

(9.) 55,000l., Pay of General Officers.

(10.) 50,000l., Full Pay for Reduced and Retired Officers.

(11.) 358,000l., Half Pay and Military Allowances.

(12.) 34,628l., Half Pay, &c, of Disbanded Foreign Corps, &c.

(13.) 117,637l., Pensions to Widows.

(14.) 79,500l., Compassionate List, &c.

On the next Vote,

(15.) 28,149l., Chelsea and Kilmainham Hospitals (In-Pensioners),

MR. HUME

said, the abolition of Kilmainham Hospital was recommended by the Committee on the Army and Navy Estimates, and he thought it had been carried out by the Government.

MR. SIDNEY HERBERT

said, two proposals had been made—one to consolidate Kilmainham with Chelsea Hospital, and the other not to make any fresh appointments, and to let the institution die a natural death. At present no new appointments were made.

MR. HUME

said, it was in evidence before the Committee that it was difficult to fill Chelsea Hospital, and that it would be advisable to transfer the pensioners from Kilmainham thither. A large establishment ought not to be kept up for a few inmates when there was plenty of room at Chelsea.

MR. DRUMMOND

said, he remembered very well the appeal which had been made by several Irish Members on behalf of the Kilmainham pensioners, who stated it to be hard that the Irish soldiers should be taken from that hospital to a place where their relations could never see them—and he thought it had been successful.

LORD SEYMOUR

said, the subject was carefully considered by the Committee, and their opinion was that Kilmainham Hospital ought to be done away with. He understood that it was now in course of being put an end to.

MR. HUME

said, the recommendation of the Committee was in accordance with the wishes of Irish Members. If they allowed to the Irish soldiers in their own homes the same amount expended in Kilmainham Hospital, they would be much better off. He did not object to the vote for the purpose of saving the money.

COLONEL SIBTHORP

said, he must protest against the abolition of this hospital as an unnecessary insult and injury to the Irish soldiers.

Vote agreed to; as were also—

(16.) 1,235,800l., Chelsea Hospital (Out Pensioners), and

(17.) 36,000l., Superannuations.

House resumed; Chairman reported progress.