HC Deb 15 April 1853 vol 125 cc1208-16
SIR JOSHUA WALMSLEY

Sir, I rise for the purpose of asking a question of the noble Lord the Secretary for the Home Department, with reference to an illustrious exile, now resident in this country, and whom, I am sure, it will be the wish, both of this House and the country, to protect, as long as he conducts himself in conformity with the laws of the land. I am induced to ask this question in consequence of the statement which I find in a leading journal of this morning, and which is to the following effect:— We believe that we are correctly informed when we state that, upon intelligence received by the Secretary of State for the Home Department and the commissioners of police for the metropolis, active measures have been taken to substantiate the charges which have long been vaguely preferred against M. Kossuth and his adherents. Upon this legal information a house in the occupation of M. Kossuth was searched yesterday morning at an early hour by the competent authorities, acting, we presume, under the Secretary of State's warrant, and the result of this investigation was the discovery of a large store of arms, ammunition, and materials of war, which may be the stock in trade of a political incendiary, but certainly form no part of the household goods of a private gentleman living in pacific retirement. The question I have to ask of the noble Lord is, whether there is any, and what, foundation for this statement as respects M. Louis Kossuth? Also, whether Her Majesty's Government have given any assurances to the Government of Austria, or of any other foreign Powers in respect to the surveillance of political refugees in this country? And perhaps it may be for the convenience of the House if the hon. Gentleman the Secretary for the Treasury will permit me to move that this House, at its rising, do adjourn till Monday next.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

Sir, I do not rise to second the Motion of the hon. Gentleman; nor have I any intention—though it is sufficiently obvious for what reason that Motion has been made—to trespass on the House with a speech. I will confine myself to such an answer to the question as I should have offered if no Motion whatever had been made. The facts of the case are briefly these. Information having been received that there were in a house somewhere near Rotherhithe—not in a house occupied by M. Kossuth—a large quantity of warlike stores, and especially a greater quantity of gunpowder than is allowed by law to be held even by dealers in that article, a search-warrant was issued, and orders having been given to the police in the ordinary course, through a magistrate, the house in question was entered yesterday morning, and there were found in it upwards of seventy cases, closely packed, and apparently intended for transmission to some distance, containing several thousand war rockets, such as are used—not at Vauxhall—but for the purposes of war. There were also discovered a considerable number of rockets, in various stages of preparation, in those iron cases which usually contain inflammatory matter, 2,000 shells not as yet loaded, a very considerable quantity of that composition with which rockets are filled, and 500lbs. weight of gunpowder. All these things were seized by the police. To whom they belonged, and who they were who were engaged in making them, are questions on which it will scarcely be expected that, in the present stage of the proceedings, I should afford information. This will be matter for future consideration; but I am sure the House will agree in thinking that a Secretary of State having been informed that there was reason to believe that such immense. quantities of warlike stores were to be found in a private dwelling, he was fully justified in taking such steps as in the present instance have been taken, for the purpose of obtaining possession of these arms, and of founding upon their seizure such proceedings as the law advisers of the Crown, whom we shall have to consult, may think that there is ground for. I can assure my hon. Friend that he is mistaken in supposing that Her Majesty's Government are acting upon any pledge, promise, or engagement given to any foreign Government, except such pledges, promises, and engagements as were given in the face of Parliament, namely, that we will do our utmost to enforce the law of this country, and to prevent the shelter which has always been, and which, I trust, will always be, afforded to foreign exiles coining here, from whatever political motive, from being abused for the purpose of organising or carrying on warlike proceedings against any foreign Powers.

MR. T. DUNCOMBE

I am afraid, Sir, that the statement of the noble Lord the Home Secretary is very much calculated to alarm, not only this House, but the public generally. Now, I wish to ask the noble Lord another question. As to those things which have been found at Rotherhithe, does not the Government know that this has been a sort of manufactory for rockets during the last six years, and that, after all, it was no dwelling-house at all—for I have made inquiry—where these rockets were found. The state of the case is this —that with regard to M. Kossuth the whole statement of the Times appears to be a perfect fabrication. And at Rotherhithe, as I believe, a most illegal proceeding has taken place—a proceeding which will require not only explanation at the hands of the Government, but may also be the subject of future inquiry in the Courts of Law. It happens that there is a certain gentleman of the name of Hale, and also another gentleman, of whom this House has often heard, I mean Captain Warner. Now, these gentlemen are rivals in the same line of business; but Mr. Hale is the most successful rival of the two. And does the noble Lord mean to say that he does not know that, six years ago, Mr. Hale took out a patent for the manufacture of this sort of war-rockets—that he has offered it over and over again to the Government—that the sale of those rockets has been going on to foreign Governments for the last six years—that Denmark, Prussia, and other Powers of Europe have purchased rockets from Mr. Hale at his factory—that he has latterly been manufacturing large quantities—that he has had an order lately from Cuba, as I understand—and that very recently, within these last few months, he has offered to the Government the whole of his present stock of rockets, which they refused, just as they refused to take Captain Warner's stock? I remember, on one occasion, when a noble Lord (Lord Talbot) was a Member of this House, and a great advocate of Captain Warner, he took me with him to see Captain Warner's instruments of war. And where were they? In Lord Salisbury's house in Arlington-street. Why, you might as well have gone with a Bow-street warrant and searched for those instruments of war in Lord Salisbury's house in Arlington-street, as have done what you have on this occasion at Rotherhithe. Now I am informed by a relation of Mr. Hale that not one ounce of gunpowder has been found—that nothing has been found but those rockets, which have been offered over and over again to the Government; which were sold publicly at Rotherhithe, and were originally made close to your arsenal at Woolwich, with the knowledge of the Government itself. One would suppose, however, from the statement of the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston), that we were on the brink of a revolution, or that we were going to get up a revolution in Europe or elsewhere. But such is not at all the case. You have broken into this man's premises, and no gunpowder has been found. It is not a private house at all. The premises are kept for the purpose of this manufacture. Their being so kept has always been notorious in the neighbourhood; and Mr. Hale himself lives at Chelsea, and was sent for the moment the police arrived on the premises. I believe, then, that a very illegal act has been committed by the police—not by the Secretary of State's warrant; and now they are trying to ride off, on the plea that it is a warrant issued under the authority of the Custom House to search for gunpowder; whereas what is called rocket composition is not gunpowder, and the Custom House has nothing to do with it. I think it right to state this to the House, for the purpose of allaying the alarm and apprehension which the speech of the noble Lord is calculated to excite. The statement I have made is from Mr. Hale's son, and I believe it to be perfectly correct.

MR. BRIGHT

I thought the hon. Member for Finsbury asked the noble Lord a question?

MR. T. DUNCOMBE

Yes, I ask the noble Lord if he does not know this to be so?

MR. BRIGHT

Well, then, I will put another question to the noble Lord first. It will be admitted by every one here, whatever opinion he may have of M. Kossuth's conduct in this country, or in Hungary, or America, that the character of such a man must be dear to himself, and that the press of England ought not to be allowed to defame such a man. Upon that account I wish to ask the noble Lord whether there is at present any reason to believe that M. Kossuth is in any degree whatsoever compromised in the matter, as described by the noble Lord himself, or as described by the hon. Member for Finsbury (Mr. T. Duncombe), any more than any member of the Orleans party now in this country? I think I have a right to ask that question. I have been on the platform with the distinguished individual alluded to; and, although nothing will induce me to say that liberty is more likely to be promoted by recourse to arms than by another course of proceeding that much more recommends itself to my judgment and to my principles, yet I should be extremely sorry, here or elsewhere, without proof should make it necessary, to disavow my connexion with, or my admiration of much that I know of that distinguished individual. Therefore, I feel that I have some interest in knowing whether this statement, which has appeared in the most powerful organ of the press—supposed often to speak from an intimate knowledge of the intentions of the Government—is correct. I have a justification when I ask the noble Lord whether there is any ground or proof whatever that M. Kossuth is compromised with, or in any manner connected with this affair? and I wish to have an explicit answer, because I think it is due to that person that immediately after the charge has been made in the press, that is now travelling over the wide world, if there be an answer which should clear him from the charge of doing what I think would be unjustifiable in this country, that answer should be given—that his character should be cleared, and his exculpation should be circulated as widely as the charge.

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

With regard, Sir, to the question put to me by the hon. Gentleman behind me (Mr. T. buncombe), he seems to know so much more about the matter, that if there is to be any interchange of questions and answers, I think I ought to be the questioner, and he the answerer. It is not, I assure him, from any disrespect that I did not answer his question formally; I must refer him to his own knowledge of the subject.

MR. T. DUNCOMBE

What I asked the noble Lord was, whether he did not know that these were patent war rockets manufactured by Mr. Hale?

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

Really I did not.

MR. T. DUNCOMBE

Then will the noble Lord inform the House to whom the premises and the arms belonged?

VISCOUNT PALMERSTON

Though I am in extreme ignorance upon the point, I do not mean to dispute the assertion of my hon. Friend that this has been a rocket manufactory for the last six years. It is very possible. I do not know. With regard to the question of the hon. Member for Manchester (Mr. Bright) as to M. Kossuth, I am quite sure that the House will feel that in the present stage of these proceedings it is not proper to enter into details. It is out of no disrespect to him. I have cast no imputation on him. I have not done so on any person. I have stated that it remains to be ascertained to whom these premises belong, and who were the parties chiefly concerned in this manufacture. But I am quite sure that, upon reflection, my hon. Friend will feel, and I am sure the House will feel, that it is not proper for me to enter into these details at the present moment.

LORD DUDLEY STUART

It is no doubt, Sir, a very convenient course, when a question is put in this House, which it does not suit him explicitly to answer or enlarge upon, for a Minister to indulge in the exercise of humour and pleasantry, especially when he possesses those qualities in so high a degree as my noble Friend the Home Secretary. The fact is, that my noble Friend is very much in the habit of having recourse to this expedient, and sometimes, I think in a manner which, though enjoyed by the House at the time, it does not altogether approve of. Whether the question at issue be the misconduct of some Judge on the bench, who has suffered himself to be betrayed by his temper into passing a cruel sentence on a miserable culprit—or whether it be the character of man unhappily in exile, although perhaps illustrious on account of the patriotism he has displayed, still my noble Friend is ever ready—and I presume to say sometimes too ready—with jokes, which, while they may divert the House for a moment, are calculated to raise my noble Friend in the estimation neither of the House nor the country. And so has it been on the present occasion. But, in reply to the last question put to my noble Friend, I observe that he has declined casting any imputation upon the distinguished individual alluded to. He has particularly said that he casts no imputation upon any person whatever. So far, then, so good; but up to the present time, notwithstanding the heavy charge that has been laid against M. Kossuth by a portion of the press, that charge has not been supported by Her Majesty's Government. The noble Lord the Secretary of State for the Home Department, has now, at any rate, refused to endorse that charge. Now, I think it is due to the distinguished individual alluded to, and also to this House and the public, that, possessing some information upon the subject, I should state it as far as it goes. I must say, then, with regard to M. Kossuth, whatever may be thought of his political conduct, that I see no reason whatever, why those who have hitherto approved of and admired him—and I am certainly one—should now withdraw from him their respect. If the Government can fix upon him any improper conduct, then will be the time to alter their opinion; but until that period arrives I, for one, shall not in any degree regard him with less of admiration and respect. Sir, I am able to state that M. Kossuth himself denies all knowledge of these transactions, and that he has declared in writing that he had no knowledge whatever of them until this morning, when the paper was shown him which has, to say the least of it, so hastily given currency to them.

MR. AGLIONBY

Sir, I know nothing of this case. [Laughter.] I should like to know if any Gentleman opposite knows more. But although I know nothing of the case or of M. Kossuth—although I never saw these statements, or heard of them until I came into this House, and heard the remarks which have been made to-night, a sense of justice, which I think every Englishman ought to feel, compels me to express my opinion upon the subject. I do not in the slightest degree deny that the noble Lord (Viscount Palmerston) is perfectly right in not going into any of the points asked him with regard to the inquiry. These are matters for future consideration and investigation. But I have a right to say this, that it is exceedingly hard upon any exile from another country, who takes refuge in this, to be charged, as M. Kossuth has been charged in the article appearing in one of the morning papers, with an offence, as if the offence were proved; whereas, by the statement of the noble Lord, that is not at all the case. The statement is— That a house in the occupation of M. Kossuth was searched yesterday morning at an early hour by the competent authorities, acting, we presume, under the Secretary of State's warrant, and the result of this investigation was the discovery of a large store of arms, ammunition, and materials of war, which may be the stock in trade of a political incendiary, but certainly form no part of the household goods of a private gentleman living in pacific retirement. Now, I beg to ask if I understood what the noble Lord stated? I thought I heard hire say distinctly that it was not the house of M. Kossuth—not his dwelling-house; and that the statement in the newspaper rests, therefore, upon wrong information. Now, I wish to call the public attention to this circumstance—that it has been negatived that the house is the house of M. Kossuth, and that at this moment nothing is established against M. Kossuth. This being so, I think it is most desirable for the credit of the country—and, with all deference for the great organs of public information, that it is also due to the credit of the paper in which the statement has appeared—that the correction of that statement should be circulated as widely as the statement itself.

Motion agreed to; House, at its rising, to adjourn till Monday next.