HC Deb 19 November 1852 vol 123 cc266-71
MR. HUME

said, he had no desire to detain the House long with his Motion for a call of the House on Monday; but as there were many Members who had never been present on occasions when a call of the House had been enforced, he wished briefly to state the nature of his proposal, and why he considered it expedient. It was the theory of the Constitution, that the Members should be always in attendance when the House was sitting, and it was in conformity with this doctrine that, when a Member died, a Motion was immediately made for a writ to empower the election of a new Member to take his place. His proposal, he was aware, might occasion some trouble to those Members who were not in the habit of attending the House, or who desired, just now, to be in the country; but the duties of Parliament should be attended to by those who accepted its honours. It might be that, as a general rule, the actual business of the House was better done when but comparatively few Members were present; but there were, from time to time, great occasions on which solemn questions vitally affecting the whole Nation were at issue, and upon such occasions it was of vast importance that the entire body of the Representatives of the Nation should be present to record their judgment. Such an occasion was this, on which he now proposed that the House should be called upon to give its complete attendance. Never, in fact, throughout his long Parliamentary experience, had an occasion more essentially requiring the solemn attendance of the universal body of the representation of the people occurred, being, as this was, an occasion on which the Government of the country, unable to form any opinion on the particular subject in question — ["Oh, oh!"]—or, if they had formed an opinion, being ready, in deference to the House, to do this or that—ready, as he understood his right hon. Friend's Resolution, announced that evening—if the House would do so and so, to do so and so too—[The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER: NO!] Well, at all events, in Her Majesty's Speech from the Throne there was this paragraph:— It gives Me Pleasure to be enabled, by the Blessing of Providence, to congratulate you on the generally improved Condition of the Country, and especially of the Industrious Classes. If you should be of opinion that recent Legislation, in contributing, with other Causes, to this happy Result, has at the same Time inflicted unavoidable Injury on certain important Interests, I recommend you dispassionately to consider how far it may be practicable equitably to mitigate that Injury, and to enable the Industry of the Country to meet successfully that unrestricted Competition to which Parliament, in its Wisdom, has decided that it should be subjected. The solemn judgment of the House being thus required on this most vital subject, he considered that the judgment of the whole House should be delivered, and therefore it was that he proposed a call of the House should take place. It would not do to go on shilly-shally, one day this way, another day that; they must come to a clear, solemn, and general decision on the matter once for all. Hon. Gentlemen who desired to have a full knowledge of the occasions on which the House had directed such calls to be made, would find an accurate account of them in a Work which had been laid on the table of the House, by Mr. Speaker, and which ought to be printed at the expense of the House, and placed in the hands of every Member—he referred to Mr, May's talented work on the constitution, powers, and privileges of Parliament. There Was, some fifty years ago, a sort of manual of the Rules and Orders of the House, and such a work ought now to be placed in the hands of each Member, with the more recently elected, among whom it was no easy matter to. understand the usages and regulations of the House. However, in Mr. May's book would be found all the information requisite on the subject of calls of the House. Upon reference to that work, he found that there had been, in the course of the last thirty-two years, since 1820, forty-three calls of the House, the intervals between the order and the call itself having varied from one day to six weeks and one day; the last call of the House had been in 1840 on the subject of the Corn Laws. In March, 1822, for example, the present noble Member for the city of London moved for a call of the House on the subject of Parliamentary Reform, and in that case the interval between the order and the call was six weeks; on the 5th of May, 1829, Sir Robert, then Mr. Peel moved a call of the House on the subject of Roman Catholic disabilities; on the 18th of May, 1832, he himself moved for a call of the House on the subject of Reform and of Ministerial arrangements, and in that case the interval between the order and the call was three days. In 1833, on Lord Althorp's Bill for the Suppression of Disturbances in Ireland; in 1834, on the Motion of Mr. Spring Rice, now Lord Monteagle, on the subject of Mr. O'Connell's Motion for a Repeal of the Union. In 1835 a call took place, on the Motion of Lord John Russell, on the Irish Church, at thirteen days' notice; on the 19th of April, 1836, upon the Motion of Mr. Daniel Whittle Harvey, on the State of the Nation; in 1838, upon the subject of Canada; in 1838 again, after twelve days' notice, upon the Motion of Sir William Molesworth,' on Colonial administration; in 1839, after three days' notice, upon the Corn Laws; and in 1839 again, after ten days' notice, upon the Motion of Lord Stanley on National Education in Ireland, He admitted the importance of the topics which were discussed on all those occasions; but he would not admit that they were of superior importance to the question which was about to be submitted—a question in which the fate of Free Trade was involved. He had obtained these precedents with the assistance of Mr. Erskine May and the librarians of the House; and he wished to assure new Members that, if they were desirous of obtaining any information upon such subjects, they would always find the utmost courtesy and attention from the librarians. Upon all these occasions the principle laid down had been that the House should be fully attended by Members. In the present instance the constituencies of many places had great doubts as to the principles on which their Members had been returned—whether as Freetraders or Protectionists. He thought it, therefore, of importance for the final settlement of this question that the greatest possible number of Members should be present. He begged to move, in the usual form, the Motion of which he had given notice.

MR. EWART

seconded the Motion.

Motion made, and Question put— That the House be called over on Monday next the 22nd instant:—That such Members as shall not then attend be sent for in custody of the Serjeant at Arms.

MR. ROBERT PALMER

did not know whether it was the intention of any hon. Member to oppose this Motion. So far as he was personally concerned, it was a matter of perfect indifference to him whether the House was called over or not, because he was not generally absent from his post on such important questions as that to be discussed on Tuesday next. But, as the hon. Member had stated that the object of a call of the House was that every Member should be present, he would beg to ask the hon. Member what power he had to insure the attendance of Members except at the call of the House? If he could insure their attendance at the debate, that would be something; but the fact was, that he could neither ensure it at the debate nor the division. There was no such power; and half those who attended on Monday and answered to their names might, if they chose, be absent on Tuesday. He merely threw this out that the hon. Member might sec whether any useful object could be gained by this Motion; because, if not, it would hardly be worth while putting people to the inconvenience which it would occasion.

MR. HUME

said, the House had the power of enforcing the attendance of Members on Monday; and if they attended on Monday and absented themselves on Tuesday, that would be a question between them and their constituencies.

MR. EWART

said, that, although there was no security for the attendance of Members on Tuesday, yet there was a strong probability that if they attended on Monday they would do so on Tuesday. There must, moreover, in his opinion, have been some good reason for the adoption of a rule by the House which had been so frequently acted upon.

VISCOUNT BERNARD

said, he wished to point out to the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) the great inconvenience and injustice which he might occasion to some Members if he persevered in this Motion. He was there prepared to vote; but if he had been at home in the south of Ireland it would have been utterly impossible for him to arrive at the House in time after being made aware of the decision of the House.

MR. S. CARTER

said, that when Parliament was called together by the Queen's proclamation it was the duty of all Members to attend; and if, instead of being there they were in the south of Ireland or the south of France, or anywhere else, they had no right to plead such absence from their duty as an argument against a proposition of this nature.

The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER

said, he perceived that Mr. Erskine May, the gentleman whom his hon. Friend (Mr. Hume) had so very justly and properly praised, observed in his work upon The Law, Privileges, Proceedings, and Usage of Parliament, "If it be really intended to enforce the call, not less than a week or ton days should intervene between the order and the day named for the call." He thought it always expedient to take as great care as possible that when there was a call of the House there should be very ample time between the order and the day named; but certainly, as a general rule, he should be very sorry to oppose a Motion of this kind; and, as he gathered from the feeling of the House that there was a desire to make the Motion of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton (Mr. C. Villiers) more or less a Motion of confidence in the Government, he should wish to see as large an attendance upon the occasion as possible; and certainly he should not himself oppose the Motion of the hon. Gentleman.

MR. SHEE

said, he wished to state the case of some hon. Friends of his, Members for counties in the south and west of Ireland, who he knew could not by possibility be present. Having had no reason to suppose that any business would so soon come before the House on which any great difference of opinion could arise, they had not yet attended the House; and it was impossible that they could now arrive in time; that being so, he thought it would be very bard upon them that they should be taken into the custody of the Serjeant-at-Arms. Unless the House had the power, therefore, to make exceptions in such cases, the Motion would be calculated to inflict a great injustice.

LORD JOHNRUSSELL

said, he thought it would have been much better if the hon. Member for Montrose, immediately after the announcement of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton that he intended to bring forward his Motion, had given notice of his intention at an early day to make a Motion for a call of the House. [Mr. HUME: I did so the very next day.] As it was, the time at present was certainly very short. However, according to the practice which he had always seen adopted when the House had been called over, if any valid excuse for absence were given, such, for instance, as being abroad, and unable to arrive in time, that had always been taken by the House, upon the allegation of any hon. Member, to be sufficient. He presumed his hon. Friend intended to pursue the same course in the present instance, and that on any Member not appearing, the question would be asked whether there were any ground or excuse for his absence. Having said thus much, he must say that he did not see any great advantage in the Motion. Certainly it had been practised upon former occasions when any questions of great importance were to be discussed, and, as the Motion of the hon. Member for Wolverhampton was one of that nature, it was unquestionably of great importance that it should be known whether they had adopted Free Trade and renounced Protection, or had returned to Protection and renounced Free Trade: he thought then, in this instance, the practice of former years might very well be followed.

The House divided: —Ayes 147; Noes 42: Majority 5.

List of the AYES.
Anderson, Sir J. Drumlanrig, Visct.
Baines, rt. hon. M. T. Duncan, G.
Ball, J. Dundas, F.
Baring, rt. hon. Sir F.T. Dunlop, A. M.
Barnes, T. Ellice, E.
Bateson, T. Esmonde, J.
Bell, J. Evans, Sir De L.
Bellew, Capt. Fagan, W.
Berkeley, hon. C. F. Ferguson, Col.
Berkeley, C. L. G. Ferguson, J.
Biggs, W. Fitzgerald, W. R. S.
Blackett, J. F. B. Fitzroy, hon. H.
Brady, J. Forster, C.
Bramston, T. W. Forster, Sir G. M.
Brotherton, J. Fuller, A. E.
Browne, V. Gardner, R.
Buck, L. W. George, J.
Byng, hon. G. H. C. Gladstone, Capt.
Carter, S. Goderich, Visct.
Chambers, T. Goodman, Sir G.
Cheetham, J. Gower, hon. F. L.
Clay, J. Grace, O. D. J.
Clay, Sir W. Graham, rt. hon. Sir J.
Cobden, R. Greene, J.
Coffin, W. Greville, C. F.
Colvile, C. R. Grosvenor, Earl
Cowan,C. Hadfield, G.
Craufurd, E. H. J. Hamilton, G. A.
Crook, J. Hastie, A.
Crossley, F. Hastie, A.
Crowder, R. B. Hayter, rt. hon. W. G.
Disraeli, rt. hon. B. Henchy, D. O.
Henley, rt. hon. J. W. Pilkington, J.
Hindley, C. Pinney, W.
Horsfall, T. B. Pollard, U. W.
Hutchins, E. J. Price, W. P.
Jolliffe, Sir W. G. H. Ricardo, O.
Keogh, W. Rice, E. R.
Kershaw, J. Robartes, T. J. A.
King, hon. P. J. L. Russell, Lord J.
Kinnaird, hon. A. F. Sawle, C. B. G.
Kirk, W. Scobell, Capt.
Langton, W. H. G. Shafto, R. D.
Laslett, W. Shee, W.
Lennox, Lord H. G. Smith, J. A.
Luce, T. Spooner, R.
Mackenzie, W. F. Stanley, Lord
Mackie, J. Stansfield, W. R. C.
M'Gregor, J. Stapleton, J.
McTaggart, Sir J. Strickland, Sir G.
Mangles, R. D. Sutton, J. H. M.
Manners, Lord J. Thompson, Ald.
Martin, J. Thomson, G.
Massey, W. N. Trollope, rt. hon. Sir J.
Miall, E. Turner, C.
Mitchell, T. A. Tyler, Sir G.
Milligan, R. Vernon, G. E. H.
Mills, T. Villiers, hon. C. P.
Milner, W. M. E. Vivian, H. H.
Morgan, C. R. Walcott, Adm.
Mostyn, hon. E. M. L. Walmsley, Sir J.
Mulgrave, Earl of Walpole, rt. hon. S. H.
Murphy, F. S. Warner, E.
Naas, Lord Wells, W.
Napier, rt. hon. J. Whatman, J.
Newport, Visct. Whitbread, S.
O'Brien, P. Wickham, H. W.
O'Connell, M. Wilkinson, W. A.
Oliveira, B. Williams, W.
Paget, Lord G. Wilson, J.
Pakington, rt. hon. Sir J. Winnington, Sir T. E.
Peel, F. Wyndham, Gen.
Pellatt, A. TELLERS.
Phillimore, J. G. Hume, J.
Phinn, T. Ewart, W.
List of the NOES.
Anson, Visct. Child, S.
Archdall, Capt. M. Cholmondeley, Lord H.
Bagge, W. Clinton, Lord C. P.
Baillie, H. J. Clinton, Lord R.
Ball, E. Cobbold, J. C.
Baldock, E. H. Coles, H. B.
Banks, rt. hon. G. Compton, H. C.
Baring, H. B. Cotton, hon. W. H. S.
Barrow, W. H. Davies, D. A. S.
Bass, M. T. Deedes, W.
Beaumont, W. B. Divett, E.
Bennett, P. Du Cane, C.
Bernard, Visct. Duckworth, Sir J. T. B.
Blandford, Marq. of East, Sir J. B.
Boldero, H. G. Egerton, E. C.
Bonham, C. J. Euston, Earl of
Bowyer, G. Farnham, E. B.
Bremridge, R. Fellowes, E.
Brooke, Lord Ferguson, Sir R.
Brooke, Sir A. B. Floyer, J.
Bruce, C. L. C. Follett, B. S.
Buller, Sir J. Y. Forbes, W.
Burghley, Lord Forester, rt. hon. Col.
Butt, I. Franklyn, G. W.
Campbell, Sir A. I. Fraser, Sir W. A.
Carnac, Sir J. R. Gaskell, J. M.
Chambers, M. Glyn, G. C.
Charteris, hon. F. Greaves, E.
Gwyn, H. Mundy, W.
Hale, R. B. Murrough, J. P.
Hall, Col. North, Col.
Halsey, T. P. Ossulston, Lord
Hamilton, Lord C. Packe, C. W.
Harcourt, G. G. Pakenham, Capt.
Hardinge, hon. C. S. Parker, R. T.
Hawkins, W. W. Pcacocke, G. M. W.
Hayes, Sir E. Percy, hon. J. W.
Heard, J. I. Pigott, F.
Herbert, H. A. Portal, M.
Hudson, G. Pugh, D.
Hughes, W. B. Robertson, P. F.
Johnstone, hon. H. B. Rolt, P.
Jones, Capt. Russell, F. W.
Kendall, N. Scott, hon. F.
Kennedy, T. Seymer, H. K.
King, J. K. Sibthorp, Col.
Knight, F. W. Smijth, Sir W.
Knightley, R. Smith, Sir F.
Knox, hon. W. S. Smith, W. M.
Lacon, Sir E. Smollett, A.
Lascelles, hon. E. Stanhope, J. B.
Legh, G. C. Stirling, W.
Lennox, Lord A. F. Swift, R.
Leslie, C. P. Taylor, Col.
Liddell, H. G. Thicknesse, R. A.
Lovaine, Lord Tollemache, J.
Lucas, F. Vance, J.
Lygon, hon. Gen. Vansittart, G. H.
Macartney, G. Verner, Sir W.
MacGregor, J. Villiers, hon. F.
M'Mahon, P. Wall, C. B.
Maddock, Sir T. H. Whitmore, H.
Malins, R. Wigram, L. T.
Mandeville, Visct. Willoughby, Sir H.
Meagher, T. Wise, J. A.
Meux, Sir H. Wyndham, W.
Michell, W. Wynn, H. W. W.
Miller, T. J. Yorke, hon. E. T.
Mills, A. Young, Sir J.
Montgomery, H. L.
Montgomery, Sir G. TELLERS.
Moore, R. S. Newdegate, C. N.
Morgan, O. Vyse, R. H.

The House adjourned at a quarter after Seven o'clock till Monday next.