§ House in Committee of Supply.
§ (1.) 15,582 Men, Ordnance Military Corps.
§ COLONEL DUNNEsaid, it was his duty to move the Ordnance Estimates for the year, and in doing so on the present occasion he would make a few observations. They were so plainly set out in the Votes, that, in fact, they required very little explanation. They had been framed by his predecessor in office, and appeared to have been framed with that attention which was necessary and consistent with a due regard to the service. He was confirmed in this, for he might safely state that no 179 department in the State was in better order than that in which he had the honour to serve. He had it on the authority of the present Master General of the Ordnance to state that nothing could be more efficient or economical than the state in which he found this department; and he felt deeply indebted to the late Master General for its high state of efficiency. He (Col. Dunne) hoped for the indulgence of the Committee if he should not be sufficiently informed on every point on which explanations might be required, seeing that he had so recently been appointed to the office which he had the honour to fill. Some he should be able to give; and he was certain that the hon. and gallant Gentleman who had preceded him in office would be quite ready to assist him. With the exception of an increase in the number of men, which the feeling excited in the country a short time ago in favour of greater security had demanded, there had been a reduction in almost every Vote. The increase of men had been most judiciously effected in such branches of the artillery as required it—a proof that his predecessors had been perfectly aware of the exigencies of the occasion, and had distributed with economy the additions made to the forces of the Royal Artillery and the Engineers. With the exception of the increase of men, which necessitated an increase of expenditure, there was but one vote, No. 9, that for the scientific branch, which had been increased by a sum little exceeding 10,000l. In all the others reductions had been made, and made in his opinion most judiciously. Last year a Committee of that House had sat on the state of the Ordnance and the Army; many of the suggestions made in their Report had been carried out, some wholly, some in part; and they were still under the consideration of a Committee of military men.
§ MR. W. WILLIAMSsaid, he looked in vain at the Ordnance Estimates for any evidence of economy. It was true that there was a decrease upon the Votes of late years, but this arose from the diminution in the number of barracks. The present Estimates, however, were double what they were in 1835, when the present Master General formed part of the Government of the late Sir Robert Peel. The amount of the present Estimates was 2,437,000l., in 1835 it was 1,552,000l., and it was still less by 100,000l. in 1834. He was of opinion that the recommendation of the Commission which sat in 1837 180 ought to be carried out, and that the Army and Ordnance departments ought to be united under one responsible Minister. There were at present no less than six different departments under the Commander-in-Chief: the Master General of the Ordnance, the Secretary at War, the Commissariat, which was under the Treasury, the Adjutant General, and the Quartermaster General. Expense and delay in the execution of necessary orders and reforms was the consequence of this complex system, and the sooner these different departments were consolidated under one responsible head, the better would it be for the service of the country. He would also recommend the abolition of the practice of allowing colonels to provide clothing for their regiments. When the present system was done away with, these regiments would he clothed more economically, and the clothing would be of a better description. He was afraid that the system of patronage which the present system permitted, was the real obstacle to these useful reforms being carried out.
MR. J. A. SMITHwould suggest that the comforts of the soldiers should be attended to, by providing them with more comfortable barrack accommodation.
§ COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that as a soldier, he was of course anxious about the comforts of his fellow-soldiers; but the suggestion of the hon. Gentleman would necessitate an increased expenditure; and it depended upon that House whether it gave the money for this purpose.
GENERAL ANSONsaid, he was glad to hear the hon. and gallant Colonel opposite express himself satisfied with the general efficiency of the Ordnance Department, and he was quite prepared to take upon himself the whole responsibility of the Estimates now before the House. They had heard the old story, which was repeated year after year, of the difficult and complicated nature of these Estimates; but he was quite sure that, if separately considered, they would be as easily understood as any of the other Estimates. It was said that the amount proposed had doubled since 1835; but that was a very exaggerated statement. The present Estimates amounted to 2,437,000l.; and the Estimates for 1835, to 1,552,000l. It would be well if hon. Gentlemen made themselves masters of these Estimates, before they began to discuss them. It was riot the fact that there were six different departments connected with the Army. The Adjutant General's 181 Office and the Quartermaster General's Office were in the same department. There were but three different departments, and he believed that they were conducted with great efficiency. Then they were told that a great opportunity for exercising economy would be found by following the recommendation of the Ordnance Committee; but he was of opinion that the present was the best system that could be followed, and that there would be some danger of injuring the efficiency of the service if all the departments were placed under one head. He would not go into the question of the clothing of regiments, because, if hon. Gentlemen read the evidence which was laid before the Committee on this subject, it would be seen that the result of their deliberations was, that it was not advisable at present to make any alteration. The increase in the present Estimates was owing to the increase in the artillery—an increase which, he was sure, no Member of that House would object to—and to the transference to these Estimates of the Commissariat.
§ MR. HUMEsaid, there was no doubt a great difference of opinion amongst the Members of the Committee on the Estimates; but several changes had been suggested, which he thought could be carried out with great benefit and economy: and he hoped the present Government would simplify the extraordinary anomalies which existed in this department. He would not say that they were kept up for patronage. He believed it was rather owing to the fact that when once persons entered into a bad system it was very difficult to get out of it. He believed no man was more anxious to promote the public advantage than the late Master General of the Ordnance; and that no man was more desirous of doing his duty both to the soldier and the public. He wished to blame no one; but the present system was bad, expensive, and complex. His decided opinion was that there should be a Minister of War, having the control of the whole War and Ordnance Departments—one master mind to direct all their movements, as was the case in every country of Europe except Great Britain. As the Estimates before the House were those of the late Government, and the present Admintration could not have had time to look closely into them, he would not oppose any difficulty to their being passed, but would simply throw out the points he had noticed, as worthy of the best attention.
§ Vote agreed to.
182§ (2.) 749,324l. Pay and Allowances, Ordnance Military Corps.
§ (3.) 296,556l. Commissariat, &c.
§ (4.) 75,580l. Ordnance Office.
§ (5.) 288,313l. Establishments at Home and Abroad.
§ (6.) 121,646l. Wages.
§ (7.) 176,453l. Ordnance Stores.
§ MR. HUMEsaid, he thought the Committee ought now to have some explanation with respect to the arms supplied to the Army. On a former occasion it was stated in that House that during the last four or five years, while other countries had been improving the arms of their soldiers, we had been remaining quite idle; and it had been asserted in the public press by some who ought to know better, that our soldiers were actually incapable of doing their duty when required. Having been on the Committee, and knowing what a large expense was incurred annually for the renewal of arms, he begged to state that he believed none of the old arms were now used by any of the corps, with the exception of the retired veterans at home. This was a subject on which the hon. and gallant Member (Colonel Dunne) should afford some explanation. They ought not to appear before the world with a character for remissness in placing in the hands of the Army the best weapons that could be obtained.
§ COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that since he entered upon the office he had the honour to hold he had discovered that there was no foundation whatever for the statements to which the hon. Gentleman had referred. For many years past the Commander-in-Chief had directed his attention to the new arms. The present Master General of the Ordnance was devoting his attention to the same subject; and he had no doubt that the British soldier would be found to be armed, not only as well as, but even better than, foreign soldiers.
GENERAL ANSONsaid, that so many misrepresentations had been put forth upon the subject mentioned by the hon. Member for Montrose, that it was necessary some explanation should be given. In the year 1838 we had changed our arms from flint to percussion locks; and the muskets which had been deemed most efficient by the highest authorities upon such a subject had then been adopted, and were still in use in this country. We had a simple percussion musket, and every hon. Member must be aware that for military service a peculiar description of arm was required. 183 It was frequently asked why the soldier should not have as good a fowling-piece as any private gentleman. But the soldier had to go through a peculiar service; he had harder work to perform than private gentlemen, and his fire arms were exposed to the danger of accidents from which other fire-arms were exempt. In the years 1846 and 1847 some novelties were introduced on the Continent in the manufacture of fire-arms; and after some experiments had been made for the purpose of testing their utility they had been adopted rather hastily, as he thought, by certain foreign Governments. Of these novelties the principal was the musket that loaded at the breech, which had been adopted, as he understood, by the Prussian Government only. That Government had supplied 10,000 or 12,000 of their troops with that musket. The invention was a very ingenious one, and to any one not conversant with military service it would appear that such a weapon would give a great advantage to the soldier who employed it, in consequence of the much greater rapidity with which it enabled him to discharge his fire. But he believed it had been found so inefficient in the Prussian army that the Prussian Government had ceased to furnish their troops with it. In the year 1847 the attention of the authorities at the Ordnance Department and at the Horse Guards had been directed to the improvement of our arms, and his noble Friend the late head of the Ordnance Department, and the noble Duke the Commander-in-Chief, suggested the appointment of a Committee, consisting of the most competent officers, for the purpose of inquiring into the matter, and receiving any proposals that might be made for the improvement of the muskets placed in the hands of our soldiers. That Committee had met at various periods since the year 1847. They had made trials of several descriptions of muskets which loaded at the breech, produced by seven different makers. But all those muskets had failed. They could no longer be worked after they had been tried for twenty rounds, in consequence of an escape of gas, or of some derangement in the machinery; and yet they had been made of the very best materials. Since that time various other inventions had appeared—there were, for instance, the muskets of the Chasseurs de Vincennes, which he understood had recently been supplanted by the Minié muskets. Those latter arms had been tried at Woolwich, and had there 184 been found to succeed. But he believed that we ought not hastily to adopt any of those improvements. Complaints had been made of the great weight of our muskets, and of the great inconvenience which they caused to our soldiers; and it had been said that a musket with a small bore would be as effective as a musket with a large one. But the noble Duke the Commander-in-Chief had always maintained very strongly, and had told him (General Anson) over and over again, that he felt indebted in a great measure for the success of his armies in foreign countries to the weight and the size of the bore in our muskets. He (General Anson) found that the French were endeavouring to make their muskets of as large a bore as ours, and they felt satisfied of the greater efficiency of our muskets. He would not say that we were bound to adhere to the size of our bore; for it was at present ascertained that the weight of the ball was all that was required, and that, although the bore might not be as large as formerly, it would be as efficient as ever if it were to carry the same weight of lead. Attacks had daily been directed against the late Government for not having taken that subject into their serious consideration. But he would venture to say that there was not at this moment an army in Europe, or in the world, that could beat our troops with their present arms. He was satisfied that, although they might not load so quickly, and although they might not have so deadly an aim at 500 or 600 yards as the troops of some other countries—he was satisfied that, with their present arms in their hands, they would be found superior to any other soldiers in the world. He should observe that it would be ridiculous to suppose that two armies could fight at a distance of 500 or 600 yards. Much more depended on the discipline of the troops than on anything else. It had been said the soldiers did not receive enough of ammunition to make them competent marksmen; but there was great difficulty in finding ground near barracks for the men to practise in. He agreed entirely with the lion. Gentleman, that our army ought to keep pace with the armies of other countries; indeed, he thought we ought not only to keep pace but to excel; but, at the same time, it was better to investigate, deliberate, and test, in the first instance, than hastily to place in the hands of our soldiers new weapons which they might be afterwards obliged to lay aside.
§ SIR WILLIAM CLAYsaid, he was to hear the statement of the hon. and gallant Member, and was quite ready to admit that it would be most inexpedient to put weapons into the hands of our soldiery which we might be afterwards obliged to lay aside. He hoped, however, that attention would be paid not only to the quality of the arms, but to the question as to whether they were sufficiently practised in the use of them. He apprehended that many persons were not aware of the allowance of ball cartridges to our regiments. For the purposes of practice, they only received thirty rounds per annum, allowing them the opportunity of firing a shot at a mark little more than once a fortnight. That seemed to him to be so unutterably ridiculous, that at first he could not credit it, but upon inquiry had reason to believe it was perfectly true. That surely was not the way to prepare a workman to handle his tool with dexterity, and that tool the clumsiest that could be supplied to him. He was afraid that this statement could not be contradicted; and he hoped that now, as public attention had been called to the subject, a more efficient system would be adopted and pursued. He felt certain that there existed a very strong feeling of disapprobation and dissatisfaction at the present arrangements. Every one acknowledged the gallantry of our troops; but the Committee and the Government would be greatly to blame if they neglected to adopt that machinery by which the gallantry of our troops might be made most efficient. He should not like to see our soldiers with inefficient weapons. It was not fair or just to trust entirely to the gallantry and endurance of those brave men; but it was the bounden duty of that House and of the Government to take care that the very best weapons of defence and attack were put into their hands, so that, if the occasion arose, they might compete at least upon equal terms with the armies of other nations.
§ MR. FOX MAULEsaid, he was glad to find that the rumour which had been so very generally circulated as to the inefficient condition of our troops, was by degrees being abandoned; but he saw that his hon. Friend (Sir W. Clay) believed that the British soldier carried in his hand a weapon which he was scarcely able to carry, or to use properly when its use was required. He (Mr. F. Maule) would say, as far as he was acquainted with the Army, and the weapons in the use of our 186 soldiery at present, that there could not be a better description of arms than those now in use, in all the inventions that might be discovered. He wished to call the attention of the Government to one point. He had to express his earnest hope that they would not be led away by new inventions, nor attempt to reorganise a new system of weapons throughout the whole Army, because he felt persuaded that newfangled inventions, if carried out in our Army, would only cause reverses instead of the glorious successes which had hitherto attended our conflicts. He had no objection to see particular companies or detachments—sharpshooters, for instance, who might be sent out to skirmish in front of the main body—provided with the weapons spoken of, but he did decidedly object to the whole body of our soldiery being supplied with Minié muskets—an arrangement which would occasion very great expense—an arrangement by which we should throw away money, and only render our Army less efficient. Something had been said about the small quantity of ammunition supplied to our troops for the purpose of ball practice; but the hon. Gentleman with whom those objections originated did not consider the difficulty there was in procuring ground in the vicinity of barracks in populous towns for the purpose of practice. It was difficult enough to obtain ground for ball practice, even at a distance of 100 yards, but it would be much more difficult to find ground, more especially in the neighbourhood of our populous towns, where barracks were often most needed, where the troops could fire at a target 800 or 1,000 yards distant. It would be a great boon, no doubt, if such places were provided, but he felt certain the Government would devote its attention to the subject; and in the meantime he must express an earnest hope that the Government would not be carried away by gentlemen who wrote letters in newspapers without signing their names, and who found a delight in crying down the efficiency of our Army. He believed that ample testimony had been borne to the efficiency of our forces by the present and by the late Government; and his own belief was, that the British Army had never been in a more complete state than at present—never was better able to take the field, if necessity arose.
§ COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that the Master General of the Ordnance was prepared to adopt any improvement that might be 187 deemed advisable, and was of opinion, like his right hon. Friend. (Mr. F. Maule), that it was not expedient to reorganise the whole Army in the manner some deemed advisable, but only particular portions of it. He entirely agreed with his right hon. Friend as to the difficulty of obtaining places near barracks for ball-practice; but the attention of the Master General was directed to the subject, which would not be lost sight of.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (8.) 449,028l., Works, Buildings, and Repairs.
§ MR. HUMEsaid, he wished to call the attention of the Committee to the state of the public works in the Channel Islands, and he would recommend the Government to send some competent person there who would make a survey of the fortifications which were now in progress in Jersey and Alderney. Two hundred thousand pounds had been already expended there, and he believed without any use whatever. They had been commenced in a panic, and ralshly and hastily decided upon. He believed these works would give no security whatever to the Channel. In his opinion they were only throwing thousands into the sea. He had also to complain that a sum of 45,000l. had been expended at Portsmouth, on the authority of the Secretary of State, but not authorised by Parliament.
§ COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he would make inquiry into the subject.
GENERAL ANSONobserved that the works at Portsmouth to which the hon. Member for Montrose had referred, were commenced on the express recommendation of the Committee on Ordnance Estimates, and every item contained in the Estimate was in strict accordance with the suggestions of that Committee. All questions respecting the defence of the country must of necessity be decided upon by the Government, who were the responsible parties. The Government had thought it expedient that there should be certain fortifications erected in the Channel Islands, and he felt sure that the Committee would unanimously agree in the adoption of a measure which had received due consideration.
§ MR. HUMEsaid, that the objection which he took was on a point of principle. The Committee on Ordnance Estimates had recommended that whenever any expense should be incurred, the authority of the Secretary of State should be given; but he objected to any Secretary of State 188 commencing fortifications without the previous authority of Parliament, except in cases of emergency.
GENERAL ANSONexplained that if necessity for any work was shown to exist, it was usual to lay a plan before the Government, and if the Government approved of the work, the sanction of the Secretary of State was given simply as an official matter. The plan was then put in the Estimates, and submitted to the consideration of the House of Commons, which, if it thought fit, might refuse a grant for the work.
§ MR. WALPOLEsaid, that the Vote was framed in strict accordance with a recommendation of a Committee of that House, to the effect that before any new work or fortification should be inserted in the Estimates, a written order of the Secretary of State should be obtained. All that had been done in the present case was this—before the Estimate was submitted to Parliament, the sanction of the Secretary of State had been given to the proposal of that Estimate, but not to its adoption. It remained for the Committee to pass the Estimate if it thought proper.
§ Vote agreed to.
§ (9.) 107,907l., Scientific Branch of the Ordnance Department.
§ MR. WYLDsaid, he must express a hope that the scientific branch of the Ordnance Department would receive the special attention of the Government during the present year. He begged particularly to point out to them the large expenses attendant on the British surveys, and the small results hitherto obtained. Nearly 1,500,000l. had been expended on the survey of Great Britain, and only ninety sheets had been published of the Government survey, five years having elapsed since a single sheet had been published. A large portion of the northern part of England still remained unpublished. He observed that engineers, and sappers and miners were the only officers of the Army employed on the survey; but in every other country of Europe officers in every department of the Army were employed in this way. The work would be facilitated, and a saving of expense would be effected, if all classes of officers were employed in the survey. It was important, in a military point of view, that soldiers should have a good knowledge of a country, and should be able to take military surveys, and he would therefore suggest that officers and students in the military colleges should 189 be employed in the survey of Great Britain.
§ MR. CHARTERISwished to know if it was intended to abandon the six-inch scale for the Scotch survey, as recommended in the report of the Committee of last year?
§ COLONEL DUNNEsaid, that Ireland had been completed on the six-inch scale, which was now in progress of reduction to one-inch for geological purposes. In the British service it was only a particular corps of the Army which had to perform these surveys; but with regard to any measures for improving the scientific education of the officers of the Army generally, he should be happy to give them his support. With respect to the Ordnance survey in Scotland, the four counties had been surveyed on the six-inch scale, but the remainder of Scotland would be finished on a reduced scale. The sum of 15,000l. a year, hitherto voted for the survey in Scotland, had been increased this year to 25,000l., with the view of enabling the survey to be completed in ten years.
GENERAL ANSONsaid, this discussion only showed the difficulty of pleasing all parties with respect to the Ordnance surreys. He had had an opportunity, from his late official position, of forming a judgment on this question, and he must on that occasion enter his protest against the principle of changing the original scales as proposed by the Committee which sat on the survey for Scotland last Session, because he felt perfectly certain that in ten years hence, after the whole survey had been completed on the one-inch scale, they would have the people of Scotland coming forward to ask for a six-inch survey; and it would be much easier to reduce a six-inch map to a one-inch scale, than it would be to raise a one-inch map to a six-inch scale.
§ MR. CHARTERISsaid, that the Committee which sat on the Ordnance survey of Scotland last Session went carefully into the whole subject, and examined a number of scientific men, among whom were the names of Mr. Brunel, Mr. Stephenson, and Mr. Locke, who all gave it as their opinion that a six-inch scale would be practically worthless, and that if the country wished to have a map that would be useful, the scale must be reduced to one-inch. A six-inch map would be too large for general purposes, and too small 190 for the requirements of the proprietors of estates. Besides, the adoption of the one-inch instead of the six-inch scale for Scotland, would effect a saving to the country of 500,000l.
GENERAL ANSONsaid, he had every respect for the opinion of the scientific names quoted by the hon. Gentleman; but the evidence of Mr. Griffiths, who had perhaps had more practical experience of this subject than any other man, was in favour of the six-inch scale. This only showed the danger of altering the system that had hitherto been followed.
SIR DENHAM NORREYSwas willing to admit that the facility of reducing a six-inch scale to one-inch was greater than in extending a one-inch scale to a six-inch.
§ MR. COWANsaid, that having been a Member of the Committee which sat on the survey for Scotland, he could corroborate the statement of the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Charteris). The overwhelming preponderance of the evidence taken by the Committee was in favour of the one-inch scale; and the hon. and gallant Member (General Anson) stood alone in his support of the six-inch scale. The reduced scale was not only recommended by the consideration of its economy, but it afforded the prospect of a completion of the survey in ten years, instead of which, if the six-inch scale were adhered to, they could not hope to see it finished in less than half a century hence. The survey had hitherto been proceeded with in a very desultory manner, Wigtonshire, Kirkcudbrightshire, Edinburghshire, and the island of Lewis, having been taken after each other, instead of the counties being taken in their regular order. The people of Scotland were anxious to see the survey conducted in the different districts in proper succession, and to have the whole rapidly completed.
§ MR. HUMEhoped that, if practicable, the price of the Ordnance maps would be still further reduced at once for the convenience of the public, and for the benefit of the revenue. The reduction which had already taken place in their price had been attended with a considerable increase in the sale. It seemed quite clear that the remainder of the survey ought to be executed on the one-inch scale.
§ COLONEL DUNNEsaid, he had his own opinion—and that a very strong one—as to the scale which ought to be adopted; but he would not state that opinion on the present occasion. It had been said that the six-inch scale was found very conve- 191 nient for the proprietors in Ireland; but it must be remembered that the original design of the survey was not the exclusive benefit of the local proprietors; and he believed it had cost nearly 1,000,000l. sterling. With regard to the order in which the survey had been taken in Scotland, the Government intended that it should be proceeded with in a more regular manner hereafter.
§ MR. CHARTERISwas sure the people of Scotland would be perfectly satisfied with the announcement of the hon. and gallant Gentleman (Colonel Dunne) as to the future prosecution of the survey. He should like to know what was the reason that the six-inch scale had ever been adopted? Mr. Griffiths originally proposed that the six-inch scale should be adopted for Ireland, because he thought the one-inch scale would not answer for that country; and the consequence was that the six-inch scale was not only introduced into Ireland, but the one-inch scale, which previously existed for the other parts of the United Kingdom, was changed, in order to assimilate it to the scale adopted in Ireland. But it should be remembered that the design of the survey in Ireland was to facilitate Mr. Griffiths' town-land valuation; whereas in Scotland these maps were not wanted for valuation purposes, but for general purposes. Besides, a very large proportion of the surface of Scotland was mountainous, and it was obvious that in such a country a map on a six-inch scale was totally unnecessary.
§ Vote agreed to; as were also—
§ (10.) 172,356l. Non-effective Services.
§ (11.) 437,602l., Commissariat Department.
§ MR. G. A. HAMILTONsaid, that in no department had greater reductions been effected than in the Commissariat, the Vote for which last year amounted to 514,442l. while the Votes for the present year only amounted to 481,201l., making a reduction of 33,241l. There were two exceptional cases, however, in the Estimates this year, where there had been an increase, namely, with reference to the Cape of Good Hope, and Western Australia. With regard to the Cape, 49,776l. had been applied for and had become necessary, as an increase caused obviously by the recent peculiar circumstances of that colony; and with respect to the Vote for Western Australia, an item of 6,276l. arose from the establishment of a convict depôt there.
§ Vote agreed to; as was also—
192§ (12.) 43,599l., Half Pay, Pensions, and Allowances, Commissariat Department.
§ House resumed.