§ On the Order of the Day for going into Committee of Supply,
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid: Sir, I am desirous of recalling to the House what has taken place since last Monday on the Committee of Supply. On Monday last I was anxious to obtain an explanation with respect to the intentions of the Government, and their course of policy as to their measures in the present Session. We were told then that as they were in a minority in this House, as there was a large majority against them, they could not bring forward measures with regard to their 1408 commercial policy. But we were told also, that they did intend to bring forward measures of considerable importance, which would lead to a Session of aft least the usual length. Now, it Struck me, and many Members of this House, in the course of debate, that this course was one so unusual and so unconstitutional, that it could not be acquiesced in. It would have been neither irregular nor unusual to have asked the forbearance of this House on the ground that the new Government had not a majority in this House; or it would have been perfectly competent for them, when they had a majority, to have brought forward their measures in due course before the House. But to appeal for forbearance to withdraw for a time from one class of measures on account of being in a minority, and to claim confidence with regard to others on the ground of their being likely to command a majority, was a contradiction that could not well be explained. At the end of Monday evening, however, after a debate, being very unwilling that there should be any vote of this House which would have the effect of limiting the Supplies- to a given period, by declaring an opinion in this House in a resolution adverse to the course which the Government were about to pursue, I asked the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether the Government would consider; before Friday, what course they meant finally to take. It appeared to me that that was a fair and conciliatory course. It certainly was my intention, in putting that question, to prevent any lengthened debate and any adverse vote of this House immediately on the formation of the new Government; but the right hon. Gentleman did not seem so to consider it, and only answered me with taunts and sarcasms. On the Friday, however, a statement was made by the right hon. Gentleman with respect to the course which the Government meant to pursue. That explanation was somewhat ambiguous; but I have heard from others that a statement has been made elsewhere by the noble Lord at the head of the Government, which seems to indicate more clearly the course which the Government of which he is the chief, intends to pursue. I understand that that noble Lord did not complain at all of the question being put to him by those with whom I have no party connexion, as to the view which he will take of the present position of the Government. 1409 He stated, what he was perfectly right in stating, that he could not bind himself or his Colleagues to dissolve Parliament at any particular moment; that there might be circumstances—that there might be certain contingencies, which would prevent his giving that advice to Her Majesty; but that as soon as those public measures which he conceived to be of urgency and importance should have been proceeded with, he would advise Her Majesty to dissolve the present Parliament, not absolutely in April, May, or June, but as early as should seem to him expedient, with the view of reassembling before the close of the autumn. It appears to me that that statement is so far a satisfactory one that I think, as matters at present stand, it is most advisable we should proceed at once to consider the Army and Navy Estimates; and I trust, for my own part, that the necessary votes in Committee of Supply will be agreed to without much further discussion or delay. There is another class of Estimates which it is not necessary to say anything about now, because they must come on at the latter part of the Session, after we shall probably have a better knowledge of the intentions of the Government; but it is quite clear, after the intimation given of the intention to dissolve the present Parliament in April, May, or June, that there will be such a ferment in the country with a view to a new election, such a canvassing in the different counties and boroughs throughout the United Kingdom, that it will be for the public convenience that that dissolution should not be delayed longer than the exigencies of the public service require. There was, as I am informed, only one measure mentioned by the noble Lord at the head of the Government, as to the introduction of which the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of Stane for the Home Department has at present given notice. It is that with regard to the militia. Now, that is a measure which, so far as I am concerned, I should be most willing to see introduced. I shall certainly not, therefore, interpose any obstacle in the way of its introduction; but of course I cannot now pledge myself further on the subject. When the measure is before the House and the country, it will be for this House to judge whether it is a measure which they can adopt; and of course I must, as others will, be at liberty to form my opinion upon that measure. With respect to any other measure which 1410 the Government may introduce, of course it will be competent for this House, if they should not think it necessary to entertain measures which are not of urgent importance, to postpone the consideration of such measures to a future Session; and I need not, therefore, make any further inquiries on this head. Such being the state of things, if the House will take the view which I take, I should propose to the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer that another day be given to the Government for the forwarding of their measures—that Thursdays, for example, should be given to Orders of the Day, and that Government Orders of the Day should have precedence of all other Orders on that day for the remainder of the Session. There is another subject, that refers to the Miscellaneous Estimates, upon which I wish to ask a question from the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary of State for the Home Department. I understand there is to be an inquiry with regard to the National Board of Education in Ireland and the system pursued by that board. I understood the right hon. Gentleman to say that he did not propose that any inquiry should take place during the present Session. I think that any alteration of that system would be a matter of the very greatest importance; and I know it is the opinion of Lord Lansdowne, that if any alteration of the kind that I have heard suggested should take place, combined education would cease to be the rule, and would become the exception, and that separate education would become not the exception but the rule. Such a change would be, in my judgment, a great misfortune, and I hope that if any vote should be proposed for the present year, it will be according to the rules now existing, and that no change in the Irish Board of Education will take place without some inquiry and some proceedings in this House by which such a change may be sanctioned. My opinion is, that such a change as has been projected, or has been supposed to be in contemplation, is one of the very greatest consequence, and fraught with great mischief; because that system of combined education, introduced into Ireland by the present Prime Minister, has been, among other means, the most effective, and the most successful, in bringing Protestants and Roman Catholics together, and has tended greatly to mitigate the sectarian animosities which formerly prevailed. But if 1411 the Protestant education should be given separately, and if the Roman Catholics should be educated separately, there would be the same agitation renewed, on that as on other subjects. If the Roman Catholics were educated in separate schools, the Vote would be objected to, and the whole scheme of combined education would be at an end. I hope that, at present, without any inquiry having been made or resolution proposed, no change will be made in this Vote.
§ MR. WALPOLEsaid, he had stated, on a former occasion, that it was not proposed or intended by the Government to make any alteration in the mode in which the grant was distributed, until a Select Committee was appointed to inquire into the system. He had said that if they did move for an immediate inquiry, it was not their intention to supersede the essential principle of that combined education which had been established in Ireland, but that their object would be to see that the grants made for education in Ireland should be so distributed as to give satisfaction to other parties in Ireland, and amongst others, he had no hesitation in saying, to the members of the Established Church, who certainly did not participate in due proportion in the grants at present. He agreed with the noble Lord that combined education should be not the exception but the rule; but the Government thought that, consistently with the maintenance of that principle, some alteration might be made that would give satisfaction to all parties.
§ LORD JOHN RUSSELLsaid, he merely wished to have the assurance from the right hon. Gentleman that no alteration would be made in the application of the grant for the present year.
§ MR. WALPOLEsaid, he could answer that distinctly—that no such alteration was contemplated. They did not wish to do anything which would disturb the rule. He wished to make one remark on something that had fallen from the hon. Member for Middlesex (Mr. B. Osborne) on Friday night. He had understood the hon. Member to say that the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland had selected his chaplains from that branch of the clergy who were distinguished by their hostility to the National System of Education. He (Mr. Walpole) had authority from the Lord Lieutenant to state that the selection was not made with that view, and that the first seven were ministers of the Church of Ireland who were in favour of that grant, and that the 1412 only object the Lord Lieutenant had in view in selecting his chaplains was to appoint men whose life and conduct gave the greatest satisfaction.
§ MR. BERNAL OSBORNEsaid, he entirely coincided in the view that had been expressed by the noble Lord (Lord J. Russell) as to the proceedings in reference to the supplies. If the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer had been as explicit in his place on Friday night as the Earl of Derby was in another place, he should have made no attempt to delay the supplies. But the right hon. Gentleman, in professing to be most frank, had mystified the subject more than he had done before. He (Mr. B. Osborne) should not further oppose the proceeding with the supplies; but in reference to the course about to be pursued by the Government, as to National Education in Ireland, he must say the explanation of the right hon. Home Secretary had been most unsatisfactory and evasive. It appeared to him the Government were going to play the same game with Protestantism in Ireland and in this country as they had played with Protection. It was said they did not intend to alter that system. The term now for all these measures was "modification;" but the right hon. Gentleman said they would endeavour to give satisfaction to the clergy of the Established Church in Ireland. What did that mean? The long and the short of it was that they meant to upset the system of National Education in Ireland; for he would defy him, or any other Member of the Government, to give satisfaction to that portion of the Church Establishment in Ireland, without completely, not modifying, but destroying, the system of National Education there. With respect to the appointments of the Lord Lieutenant, it might appear from what the right hon. Gentleman said that the present Lord Lieutenant was the only person who had selected chaplains for the purity of their lives. Why, of course, they all did that. Of course, all chaplains were selected for the purity of their conduct. But he maintained that the two first selected, the Rev. Mr. Goulde and the Rev. Dr. Singer, were two men distinguished for their opposition to the system of National Education. He hoped this question would be brought on early in the ensuing Parliament, and that the financial Secretary of the Treasury (Mr. G. A. Hamilton) would not go and tell one story to his constituents 1413 in Dublin, and another to that House, but would stick to the Motion he bad placed on the paper for a modification of the system; so that the systems of protection and education might be fairly brought forward at the earliest possible moment in the next Parliament.