PROMOTION IN THE NAVY. (Hansard, 5 May 1851)

§ MR. HUME
wished to refer to a former occasion, on which, when he had made a few observations, he had afterwards been precluded from making a Motion which he had on the paper, and begged to ask Mr. Speaker if, should he offer a few remarks at present, he would be precluded from bringing on the Motion which stood on the paper?

§ MR. SPEAKER
replied, that when an hon. Member had spoken once on the Motion that the Speaker do leave the Chair, it was against the rules of the House that he should speak again.

§ MR. HUME
That I say is an interference with the liberty of speech. I am precluded by a rule you lay down from bringing on my Motion if I speak at present.

§ MR. SPEAKER
I have laid down no rule on the matter. It was always the rule of the House that on the question that the Speaker do leave the Chair, hon. Gentlemen might speak once; and if any hon. Gentleman does speak once, he could not speak again while the same question was before the House.

§ MR. HUME
could only say that in his experience he had known three, four, and five questions raised. ["Order, order!"] Hon. Gentlemen would allow him to express his opinions. He would take that opportunity of stating that he concurred in the importance of having Judges to whom they could look up. Judges ought to be selected on account of their talents and public and private worth; but he had been long enough in that House to know that such appointments were not made on 562 account of these qualifications. He could name instances where individuals had been appointed to situations whose qualifications were not so much considered as their party political bias. He thought that the time had come when the Government ought to place a lawyer with fortune in the House of Lords, and give him a peerage, and not make it the practice to pay such high public salaries. That was a crying evil in this country, and one which ought to be removed. They had had instances of men selected no doubt for their capacity, but who had not had time to make a suitable provision for their families; and, in consequence, their families had to be pensioned on the public. He did not expect that they could reduce the salaries of men who really did the work, but there was a class of men who got salaries, and who did very little work. He thought that the salaries of diplomatists ought to be reduced. He did not see what use they could be in the present state of Europe. He believed that in our diplomatic interference we meddled more in other people's affairs than our own. He did not wish to cast any reflection on the noble Lord at the head of the Foreign Department. He considered him to be one of the ablest men they had to manage their affairs. He differed on many points from the noble Lord, but he wished to do credit to his ability. He wished him, however, out of the Foreign Department, and he should wish to see him Chancellor of the Exchequer, or anything else except Foreign Secretary. The noble Lord had referred to the influence of Russia at Constantinople without having an ambassador there. Why, he would ask, did we keep up a large fleet in the Mediterranean, and require an ambassador also to keep up our influence? He would not go further on this, but, as he was not allowed to speak twice, he would not sit down without calling the attention of Government to the promotions in the Navy. Two years ago the cost of the Navy underwent a searching inquiry before a Committee, and amongst the recommendations which the Committee made, was one to reduce the number of admirals from 150 to 100. The Motion which he had given notice to bring before the House was that that recommendation be carried out. Hon. Members, however, would be in possession of a paper dated 29th April, from which he learned that Government proposed to reduce the number of admirals from 150 to 100; of captains from 492 to 350; of com- 563 manders from 828 to 450; and of lieutenants from 2,247 to 1,200. It was satisfactory to see that Government was directing its attention to that department, and he was only sorry that they did not do it long ago. In consequence of this proposal, the ground of his Motion was taken from under him; but they were called upon for 6,500l. to carry this reduction into effect. He was informed by officers that the mode of reduction, however, would be productive of great injustice. By the rules of the Admiralty, no captain could succeed to the flag unless he had commanded a ship of war for a certain time since the Peace. The consequence was, that the Admiralty had placed connexions of their own in command of ships, and they had succeeded to the flag; while men who had devoted themselves to the Navy as a profession, but who were without interest, had not the opportunity of serving, and therefore got no promotion. To avoid this injustice, he put it to the First Lord of the Admiralty whether it would not be better to follow out the advice of the Committee, and have three vacancies to one promotion? As the object of his Motion was effected, he should not persevere with it. It was understood that the office of General of Marines would not be filled up. Would that go towards the 6,500l. a year?

SIR FRANCIS BARING
said, the plan proposed by the Committee was in accordance with what the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) had himself proposed to the Committee. He deeply regretted that there was no plan which could be proposed which would not injuriously affect some class of officers or other, but he thought the plan proposed to remove these officers was the best and fairest. The rule was that no officer could be promoted who during the past thirty years had not served six. Some of them had not served at all during the whole time they had been on the captains' list, and those officers would be removed. He would go no more into detail when the House went into Committee.

§ SIR GEORGE PECHELL
said, he apprehended when the House got into Committee the right hon. Gentleman the First Lord of the Admiralty would ask for a Vote for Stores, which would occupy a great portion of the evening. His hon. Friend the Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) complained that there had been great delay in the Admiralty in taking this matter in hand. It oppeared to him (Sir G. Pechell) that the Admiralty had on the 29th of 564 April taken up this matter all of a sudden. On April 29th the Lords of the Admiralty appeared to have received a confidential letter. It appeared that on that clay the subject occupied the serious consideration of the Board of Admiralty, and that they at once, with the permission of the Lords of the Treasury, proposed that the sum of 6,500l., to be applied for the relief of the admirals' and captains' list, should be proposed to Parliament. He thought, therefore, that they owed the Lords of the Treasury some thanks for their unusually prompt attention to the matter. With respect to the right hon. Gentleman's (Sir Francis Baring's) reply to the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume), they should recollect that many persons were unable to serve the required time for want of interest. Many parties applied to the Admiralty year after year stating their great anxiety to manifest their zeal in the defence of the country and of the constitution; but unless supported by Parliamentary or other influence, they had no chance of being employed. It was scarcely fair, then, to turn round upon such persons and tell them that they had not served. He could assure the House that there were many cases of that description. There was another point deserving of notice in the observations of the hon. Member for Montrose, namely, on what principle would the selection for the list be made? For instance, there was a very excellent and worthy admiral of the Blue who thought he ought to go to Plymouth; but they told him that he was deaf, and could not hear the morning and evening gun. They, therefore, appointed a junior officer. Of course the worthy admiral was dissatisfied; and the Board would have many cases of that description. Then, again, the House had had a statement with regard to the retirement of commanders and lieutenants. With respect to that subject, he (Sir G. Pechell) had endeavoured to impress on the Government, four years ago, the necessity of making a retirement for lientenants and commanders; and he had indicated the mode in which such a fund might be created, namely, by appropriating the sums paid by the public for the conveyance of specie and treasure by Her Majesty's ships. At present the greatest injustice, favouritism, and patronage, were shown in the disposal of that money; but if it were applied in the way he had pointed out, the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have 565 no need to come down to the House for an increase of the half-pay, for the fund in question would be amply sufficient for the purpose. In concluding he begged to compliment the Admiralty upon the amount of general discipline and good order which they had enforced, and with respect to which they had not been surpassed by any Gentlemen who had ever sat on the Ministerial benches.