SUPPLY—ORDNANCE ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 31 March 1851)

COLONEL ANSON
said, that when the Ordnance Estimates were under the consideration of the House last year, he entered into some details, more than usually required, on account of the changes which had been made in them arising out of the recommendations of the Committee appointed to inquire into the Army and Navy Estimates. He would endeavour on this occasion to compress his remarks into as concise a form as possible consistent with the duty which devolved upon him. The amount demanded for the present year was 831 only a slight diminution upon that voted by Parliament in the last year. The reduction was 22,920l. He trusted the House would not therefore imagine that every requisite attention had not been given to the consideration of all the items comprised in the Estimates. During the last three years a great reduction had been made in the Ordnance expenditure. Since 1849, the total saving had not been less than 580,646l. The Government had been most anxious that this Estimate should be kept down to the lowest possible limit, and it had been the object of the department to second their views. But a vast extent of service was required from this department, and the expenses must be regulated by the requirements of the service, and by the amount necessary to maintain the Ordnance establishments in a state of vigour and efficiency. Hon. Members who would read the evidence taken upstairs, would see that none of the grave charges made against this department were substantiated. Valuable suggestions, no doubt, were made by the Committee, and their adoption had been followed by economical results. But economy was not always the consequence of reduction, and indiscriminate retrenchment led to increased expenditure. In no department were such results more likely to follow than in the Ordnance Department. He had great pleasure in bearing his testimony to the merits of the Artillery, Engineers, and Sappers and Miners. Every day justified him in the opinion of their worth, good conduct, and superior qualities. Now, the amount demanded on this vote was 712,755l., being 173l. less than was required last year. There was an increase on some of the items and a reduction on others. In the hospital expenses there was a diminution of 1,169l. The medical department had been revised, and the whole of the charge on the hospitals now appeared in the estimates, with the pay of the soldiers in the hospitals deducted. It was gratifying to know that the Ordnance Department was not behindhand in its endeavours to educate its soldiers. The schools for the Artillery had been established many years, and they had been supported, up to 1840, by regimental subscription. The system pursued in the Artillery was to train non-commissioned officers at Woolwich; and the course of study embraced English grammar, algebra, practical geometry, astronomy, the use of the globes, measurement of heights and distances, and Scripture and English his- 832 tory. This was the initiatory course. Another class were instructed in mathematics, vulgar and decimal fractions, extraction of square and cube roots, and a theoretical knowledge of field and permanent fortification. The most satisfactory reports had been received of the progress they had made in their studies. At Woolwich there was a very inadequate supply of school accommodation; and this year there would be a vote to extend that accommodation, an extension which would be attended with the best advantages. The average daily attendance at these schools was as follows:—235 non-commissioned officers, 258 gunners, 116 drummers and trumpeters, and 233 boys. In libraries, also, this department must be considered as being in a satisfactory condition. In 1834, libraries were established for non-commissioned officers; in 1835 they were formed for gunners; and in 1849 the demand for the instruction which they were intended to supply had so greatly increased, that the libraries appropriated to the officers were given up to the non-commissioned officers and gunners, new libraries having then to be provided for the officers themselves. The next point to which he had to call attention was with regard to savings banks. He was happy to say, that since the establishment of these institutions in the Artillery, the number of depositors had largely increased. In 1845–6 the number of depositors was 383, and the amount deposited was 3,018l. In 1849–50 the number of depositors was 1,109, and the amount deposited was 7,300l. Other means had been taken for improving the condition of the department. Great benefits had resulted from the adoption of a suggestion made in that House, and urged in one of the military newspapers, in respect to the appointment of additional captains of artillery for the instruction of officers on joining their corps. He trusted that the House would appreciate the anxiety which, as he had shown, constantly actuated the superior authorities in this department, and that hon. Gentlemen would admit that every practicable improvement was being gradually adopted. Some changes had taken place in regard to the allowances to married soldiers. The allowance had been for a long time one penny per day, this being in conformity with a communication from the War Office; but recently an application had been made to the Treasury to sanction an alteration, and it was proposed that in future the allowance should be two- 833 pence per day to married non-commissioned officers living out of barracks. Considerable additions had been made to the buildings for married solders, giving accommodation for four non-commissioned officers and 100 men. There were now fifty-two cottages of that kind on Woolwich Common. These paid only a nominal rent, namely 7d. per week, which was the same allowance as last year in the Army, and this rent was applied to keep the houses in good repair. The question of punishments, to which he had now to allude, was one in which the House had always taken great interest. He thought it might be shown, in answer to the suggestion of the hon. Member for Montrose, to the effect that the administration of the Ordnance should be transferred from the Master General to the Horse Guards, that the discipline of this corps was at present under most strict surveillance. With respect to corporal punishments, these, he was happy to say, were of very unfrequent occurrence in the Ordnance service. In 1846 and 1847, with an average corps of 7,000 men, the punishments were eight in the one year, and seven in the other; in 1848 and 1849, when the numbers of the force were increased, and to some extent by men who had under army reductions been dismissed as least deserving from the Army, the punishments were thirteen in the first year, and twenty-three in the second. In 1850, however, though the force numbered 10,000, so excellent was the discipline, that there were only six corporal punishments in the force; and he had no doubt that the diminution would go on. Under the head of recruiting, the House would perceive a considerable reduction. Recruiting was now carried on in the most economical manner; officers serving in different parts of the country doing the whole business, and doing it most satisfactorily. He had now entered into all the items connected with the general statement. To this first vote of 712,582l. he particularly called the attention of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Montrose, and he hoped that he (Mr. Hume) would separate this Vote from all the others, and that he would consider it upon its distinct grounds. The next Vote was for "268,257l. for commissariat and barrack supplies for Her Majesty's forces, great coats for the Army, and clothing for colonial corps." This vote was less by 5,580l. than the vote passed last year, and it arose as follows:—In the article of forage there was an increase of 10,700l., in consequence of 834 the increased price of rations and forage. In the article of coals there was a diminution of 8,000l. In the article of candles there was a diminution of 1,700l.; and in the article of palliasses there was also a diminution. Altogether there was a diminution of 10,288l., and an increase of 10,403l., as compared with the Estimates of last year. The barrack supplies for last year amounted to 70,968l.; this year they were only 66,000l., being a diminution of 4,968l. On this point a great deal of evidence was given in the Committee last year, and he was satisfied that this year's Estimate was unobjectionable. Considering that they had to provide barrack supply for 120,000 men, this Estimate only amounted to 10s. per man. It should further be considered that there were 400 barracks of all sorts and sizes. In the article of great coats there was a diminution this year amounting to 3,000l., the Estimate being 17,000l. He could not promise that the Estimate would not be higher next year; for, just now, a new cloth was being provided of a rather expensive character, and it was considered desirable that the trial should be made. The third Vote was for 75,950 for the Ordnance Office. The alterations proposed by the Committee with regard to the amalgamation of certain offices had been carried out, and the result was that in the Vote for the present year there was a diminution, as compared with last year, of 11,000l. He could not take credit for the whole of this diminution; because, as it would be noticed, the expenses of the storekeeper's department were not this year included in this vote, that department being transferred to the head "establishments." The actual diminution amounted to 3,684l. He was satisfied that no department of the Government was harder worked than the Ordnance Office, and he was not less satisfied that that office was worked in the most economical manner. A comparison with the circumstances in 1835 and the circumstances in 1851–2 would sufficiently prove this. In 1835 there were 250 persons employed at an expense of 90,019l. In 1851–2 there were 188 persons employed at an expense of 75,920l. The next Vote was for Establishments in the United Kingdom and in the Colonies, 295,750l. This was so voluminous a Vote that he would not occupy the attention of the Committee with its details; he would merely state that the total diminution upon this Vote was 8,076l., which would have been 15,000l. but that the storekeeper's depart- 835 ment, as he had before stated, had been transferred to it from the previous Vote. In the Ordnance establishments for the colonies there was a decrease of 5,200l. In the barrack establishments at home there was a decrease of 4,000l.In the barrack establishments abroad there was a decrease of 5,000l.Great care was taken in obtaining the most accurate information as to the establishments abroad. In the first place all the reports were revised—first by the governor of the colony, and afterwards by the commander-in-chief; and the precautions adopted ensued the most excellent results, The next Vote was for the wages of artificers and labourers. In this Vote for this year there was a decrease on last year of 3,999l. in the United Kingdom, and of 2,264l. in the Colonies. The next Vote was for stores. This was the Vote which had always called forth the greatest amount of criticism from the advocates of economy. This year he submitted it to them with the most perfect assurance that the Committee would observe and admit the practical economy which had governed the department in this direction. In 1850–1 the sum of 211,631l. was asked; in the present year he had to ask only 194,909l., being a diminution of 16,722l. The Estimate for small arms, included in this Vote, was 14,000l.less this year than last year. It should be understood, however, that the supply demanded would not be considered as that by any means which it was advisable to maintain. There were at present peculiar reasons why the Vote should be limited in amount. It appeared that some interesting novelties in small arms were being tried on the Continent, and it was deemed desirable that the results of these experiments should be ascertained. So far as he could judge at present, the superiority of these inventions to our own manufacture, was extremely questionable. The next Vote was for "works, buildings, and repairs." The amount demanded this year was 470,347l. The amount voted last year was 440,069l. This increase was apparently large; but it would be found to be no increase at all when it was considered that in the Vote this year was included a sum of 64,000l.required for entirely new buildings. In fact, there was a decrease in the Vote as compared with last year, of 12,000l.The increase arose from the necessity for constructing a new wing to Wellington-barracks, for the reception of a battalion of Guards, the expendi- 836 ture upon which this year was estimated at 10,000l.; for building an Ordnance institution at Woolwich, an object which he was sure the House would sanction, 5,350l.; towards building a new fort at Gosport, 10,000l.; towards a new Hospital in the Plymouth district, 10,000l., &c. There was another item of 21,500l.for the surrender of the lease of Carlisle Fort, Cork. He believed that in 1804 a lease had been taken of this fort at a rent of 1,000l.a-year for ever, and there could be no doubt but that this surrender of the lease should have been effected long ago. The arrangement regarding the Carlisle fort was allowed to be an economical one. The hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) might object to the increase in the department of which he (Col. Anson) was speaking; but he could assure him that the increase was more than balanced by the reductions on other Votes. He (Col. Anson) came next to the Vote for the Scientific branch, which of course included the surveys of England, Scotland, and Ireland. He was perfectly well aware that hon. Gentlemen objected to the manner in which this amount had been distributed. It was not for him to enter at any great length into the matter. The amount which Parliament was so liberal as to vote was 65,000l.per annum; but that sum went but a very small way in finishing the surveys of the three kingdoms. It would require a much larger amount; and if the Committee could persuade the Chancellor of the Exchequer to give a larger sum, it would be of very great service. There was on the paper a notice for a Committee to inquire into the Scotch survey. If that Committee were granted, it would be the means of affording to the House all requisite information, and it might be that the House would then be of opinion that a larger sum of money should be expended. When the Exhibition was opened, hon. Gentlemen would have an opportunity of inspecting the map reduced from the large scale, which he (Col. Anson) thought would surpass anything of the kind in the world. The next Vote for the non-effective services was 173,248l., which was a diminution of 4,288l. from last year, and no alteration could be made on them. There was an increase in the civil superannuation list; but those persons who had been placed on it had been in the service from forty to fifty years, and were well entitled to the superannuation. He had, to save the time of the House, gone over these Votes as hastily as possible, and he 837 asked the hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. Hume) to take these Votes separately, and say where he could prudently make any reduction. The hon. Member might say that they could reduce the Ordnance establishments in the Colonies; but as long as we maintained those Colonies they must keep up their Ordnance service. The hon. Member might take exception to the Stores; but he (Col. Anson) maintained he could not demand less with a due regard to the wants of the services. Every description of stores had been closely looked into. They had had reports from Canada, Gibraltar, Malta, and Hong Kong; and instead of these recommending a reduction of the annual supply, they generally asked for an increase. There were a great many items to which he bad not even referred, and for this he might perhaps be blamed by his hon. Friend. He was, however, unwilling to detain the Committee.

§ MR. HUME
said, that upon looking over the whole of the Ordnance Estimates, he found that there was only a saving of 22,920l.upon the whole amount of 2,411,497l. He considered that the whole system should be changed. About 6,000,000l.of stores had been from time to time accumulated, and at last they were good for nothing. They had laid in from time to time large amounts of stores, and kept them so long, that there were many thousand pieces of artillery perfectly useless, although they had been guarded with great care, and at an expense of three times their value. The Ordnance Estimates had greatly increased of late years. In fact, until within three or four years back, there never was an Ordnance Estimate exceeding a million and a half. In 1834, the amount of the Ordnance Estimate was 1,068,000l.; 1835,1,110,000l.; 1836, 1,400,000l.; 1837, 1,300,000l.; in 1846itwas 2,300,000l.; 1847,2,900,000l.; 1848, the year in which the whole department ran wild, 3,076,000l.; 1849, a little economy being introduced, 2,300,000l.; 1850, 2,434,000l.; and upon that sum of last year there was in the present estimates only 22,920l.of a saving. But it was still more extraordinary the way in which this expenditure had increased, if they looked back for a few more years. He was debarred from going back to 1792, but the Committees of that House had gone bark to that period, and it appeared that in 1792 838 the number of men in the Ordnance Department was 4,846, at an expense of 51,000l.In 1822, after a long war, the number was only 7,614 men, and the expenditure 427,000l., and now they were called upon to vote 14,573 men at an expense of 2,411,497l. With respect to the Colonies, some system of consolidation ought to be adopted, by which a great saving might be effected. However, he believed that until the Artillery and Engineers were all put upon one safe footing, and put under the control of a Commander-in-chief, there was no chance of any considerable reduction being effected. He condemned the system of having so many colonels appointed and then shelved upon half-pay, which was one source of considerable expense. He would also act differently with respect to the stores; and, for one thing, he would at once remove the establishment in Pall-mall. He was sorry that a new building had been raised there at an expense of he did not know how many thousand pounds. It was impossible that that could he continued at such an enormous expense as 75,000l.The addition to the barracks he thought was most important, and he also admitted the propriety of the expenditure upon the fortifications. He would not trouble the Committee to divide, but must protest against the enormity of the Vote, which could only be attributable to the extravagance of the day.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
said, he must complain of the number of men that were to be voted. Connected with the Artillery, was a pet corps—the Royal Horse Artillery—which was of no service whatever, but was a most costly affair. The 602 men in the Horse Artillery cost the country 8,000l.a year more than 602 men in the Foot Artillery. The Estimates of the present Administration were more extravagant than those of any Government which had preceded it. Taking the period between 1829 and 1839 inclusive, during which the Administrations of the Duke of Wellington, Earl Grey, and Lord Melbourne governed the country, the average number of men voted annually for the Ordnance was 8,566, at an average cost of 1,546,000l.This year the number of men proposed by the Government was 14,573, and the cost was 2,411,497l. It should also be taken into consideration that the present Government had an additional force of between 15,000 and 16,000 men, com- 839 posed of battalions in the dockyards and coast-guard men, which former Government did not possess.

§ COLONEL SIBTHORP
said, there was no more gross waste of public money than under the head of "civil contingencies." A great deal of money would be expended upon what he had always regarded with great jealousy—that miserable Crystal Palace, that wretched place, where every species of fraud and immorality would be practised. It was an insult to the English nation. He objected to any Vote of public money on account; it was a very dangerous thing, for when the money went out they could not get it back again, and his maxim was, "Holdfast is a good dog."

§ MR. HUME
could assure the hon. and gallant Member that not a farthing of the Vote proposed was for the Crystal Palace.

§ COLONEL SIBTHORP
said, if he was not supported in his opposition to the Vote by the hon. Member for Montrose and his friends, he would not be at their beck and call, and would not give the House the trouble of dividing.