SUPPLY. (Hansard, 26 June 1851)

§ MR. HUME
said, he had been anxious to bring before the House the conduct of the Colonial Department respecting Demerara, having been a Member of a Committee upstairs which recommended several reforms, and having presented a petition two months ago from that colony, complaining that Government did not extend to them the principles of self-government. It was a notorious fact that the Colonial Department was at variance with every one of our colonies. He wished to know whether anything had been done with regard to Demerara?

§ MR. HAWES
said, he believed there had been a considerable extension of the suffrage in Demerara, and it was mainly to that point to which the Committee which the hon. Gentleman referred to directed its attention. He had always understood, and that House had recognised the distinction, that where there were two races, a coloured race and a white race, the former of which had long been subject to the latter, it was not expedient to give great political power to the coloured race. Besides the extension of the franchise, there had been a large reduction of expenditure, which was another of the points to which the Committee directed its attention. Both these important measures had been carried out with great ability by the present Governor. As the colony progressed in intelligence, it might be desirable to extend the franchise more to the coloured population; but in their present state he was not 1272 inclined to invest them with an overwhelming share of political power.

§ MR. TRELAWNY
said, the Government had some time ago announced their intention to appoint persons who had passed an examination under the system established by the Board of Education, but who were not sufficiently qualified to be appointed masters of schools, to subordinate offices in the public departments, and he wished to know whether that expressed intention had been carried into effect?

§ THE CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,
said, that the intention of carrying the system into effect had not been abandoned.

§ MR. HUME
said, he objected to the amount included in this vote for the registration of merchant seamen. The system was established on the recommendation of the right hon. Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham); but he believed the registration tickets had been applied to most mischievous purposes.

§ MR. LABOUCHERE
thought that the system of registration had been attended with the greatest advantage to merchant seamen. The same principle was carried out with regard to merchant seamen in the United States, and other countries. He had no doubt that experience and inquiry would suggest means of improving the present system of registration; but he thought the entire abolition of the system would be a most imprudent step.

§ MR. HUME
considered that the registration system had entirely failed to accomplish the objects with which it was established, and it had undoubtedly occasioned great discontent among the merchant seamen.

CAPTAIN HARRIS
did not think that, in the event of a war, they would be able to man the Navy by impressment, and it was for the Committee to consider whether they would abandon the only means yet suggested with any chance of success for avoiding the impressment system. It must be remembered that only one portion of the plan proposed by the right hon. Member for Ripon (Sir J. Graham) had yet been carried into effect. It was intended by the right hon. Baronet that, in the event of a war, merchant seamen should render compulsory service in the Navy, and that the register-tickets should be the moans of reaching the seamen. No occasion, however, had arisen for carrying into effect the compulsory powers of the Act, and therefore it was hardly fair 1273 to say that the measure would not he effective in its operation. The system of registration had been of great advantage to the respectable seamen in the merchant service.

§ MR. HUME
said, that it was well known that the same man frequently registered himself two or three times in different names, and therefore the registration afforded no means of ascertaining accurately the actual number of merchant seamen.

SIR FRANCIS BARING
said, that the Mercantile Marine Bill would render the system of registration much more complete and effective than it had hitherto been.

§ SIR GEORGE PECHELL
considered that the most effectual means of inducing seamen to enter the Navy would be to increase the pay and promote the comforts of those employed in the service.

§ MR. HENLEY
said, that there were several classes of men subject to impressment, as, for instance, watermen and fishermen, who were not affected by the ticket system.

§ MR. LABOUCHERE
said, since he had been connected with the Mercantile Marine Board, he had had opportunities of consulting captains of ships and many other persons with reference to the registration system, and he had found that the result of that system had been to prevent desertion in a great degree. Many frauds and imperfections still continued under it; but he was satisfied that its workings had been most beneficial. It was said to have caused great dissatisfaction. Well that, no doubt, was the fact; and if it had not been so, the Act which the Legislature lately, at his recommendation, put itself to the trouble of passing, would have proved wholly inoperative. Of course all the lodging-house keepers and low attorneys of our seaports were very much dissatisfied with the Act, and they had done all in their power to induce the sailors to get up an opposition to it. The excitement, however, which they had created, had, he believed, calmed down, and the sailors now began to see the advantages which the Act would confer upon them. There could be no doubt that the Act had done an infinity of service to the merchant service. Upwards of 1,000 masters and mates had been examined under the Act, and about 250 had failed in their examination. Many of those that had been rejected applied themselves afresh to instruction in their profession, and several of 1274 them had since been re-examined and passed. From all parts of the country he received intelligence that schools for naval instruction had been established in our seaport towns. Great as was the good which had been already effected by the Mercantile Marine Act, he felt that that good would prove to be of a progressive and substantial character.

§ MR. HUME
said, it could not be denied that great dissatisfaction still prevailed with reference to this Act. He had received a communication that very day from the sailors of Sunderland, who desired to be informed when an opportunity was likely to be afforded to them to come up to London and prove the inconveniences to which the Act had subjected them. They complained particularly of that part of the Act which prevented them from making their own contracts. The Government had not proposed a similar system of registration with regard to stokers and engineers engaged in steam navigation; and yet, if it was useful for the one class, it was equally useful for the other. The sin of having proposed the registration system was upon the head of the right hon. Baronet the Member for Ripon, and he should like to hear what he had to say in its defence.

§ SIR JAMES GRAHAM
said, that it was with much reluctance that he rose to answer the appeal which had been made to him, for seventeen long years had elapsed since he first recommended the measure for the registration of seamen; and he regretted to say that his avocations since that time had withdrawn his attention from the subject, and he was not very well aware how the measure had really worked. The hon. and gallant Officer below him (Captain Harris) was quite correct in saying that he did not introduce this measure as one complete in itself, but as one that might be subsidiary to ulterior arrangements. He did not mean to say that, in case of a great naval war breaking out, impressment, as a last resort, could be dispensed with; but then it should be borne in mind that it could only be adopted as a last resource, and he thought that a system of registration would be available in promoting a system of compulsory service in a time of war for a limited period. Having ceased to hold any connection with the Admiralty, he had not matured any plan on the subject himself, hut he was still disposed to think that his right hon. Friend at the 1275 head of that department was right in holding that a well-organised system of registration was indispensable in any system of compulsory service for a limited period. It was true that the hon. and gallant Admiral the Member for Gloucester (Admiral Berkeley) had on one occasion intimated an opinion that registration was of no use to Her Majesty's service; but if he understood his right hon. Friend the President of the Board of Trade correctly, the system, though not now perfect, was capable of improvement, and even in its present state had been of much use in the merchant service in preventing desertions. If the Committee, therefore, proceeded to a division on the subject, he should record his opinion in favour of the vote.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
wished to know what duties the Lord Privy Seal had to perform?

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, that he could not enumerate any particular duties attached to this office, but there were various matters which necessarily came from time to time before the Cabinet requiring the attention of some Member of the Government who was not so fully occupied with the regular business of his office as to be unable to give proper care to these matters as they arose.

§ MR. HUME
suggested that the Lord Privy Seal might undertake the functions of Minister of Justice, an officer who was very much wanted. The late Lord Lang-dale was strongly in favour of the appointment of a department of that nature.

§ LORD JOHN RUSSELL
was of opinion that the important duties to which the hon. Member referred, could be more properly executed by a Lord Chancellor than by any other person. His experience and judicial position gave him greater authority than any one else with respect to any matters concerning the superior courts of justice. Hitherto the Lord Chancellor's judicial duties had been so exceedingly burdensome, that be had not been able to give the time which was desirable to the whole administration of justice in the country, whether in the common law or equity courts; but he (Lord John Russell) trusted that the Bill which he had lately brought in, and which seemed to be generally approved of, would enable the Lord Chancellor to give more time to the subject, 1276 and that thus the objects which the late Lord Langdale had in view would be attained.

§ MR. HUME
did not think the Lord Chancellor ought to be called on to perform those duties. New courts were about to be created, and it would be most important that they should be properly superintended.

§ MR. BRIGHT
believed there were no less than three Members of the Cabinet holding offices which were pretty nearly sinecures. There were the Lord Privy Seal, the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, and the Paymaster of the Forces. [Lord JOHN RUSSELL: No; the last is joined to the office of Vice-President of the Board of Trade.] Well, then, there was the holder of that office, able to give his attention to other matters, for he had this year rendered most important and efficient aid in regard to the Exhibition, and done more of the public service in the House of Lords than any other Minister. He must, however, protest against these votes after the evidence taken by the Committee on Official Salaries last year. That Committee could only obtain the evidence of the officials themselves, who, of course, thought their own offices of the greatest importance. The right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer had said that the Lord Privy Seal had nothing in particular to do, but that he was necessary in the Cabinet to do anything that might be wanted. Now, the man who could do anything ought to be the very ablest in the Cabinet, but able men were never put into these offices. They were generally used as a means of paying off the supporters of a party, and were not at all necessary. The noble Lord had taken the course of disregarding six-sevenths of the Committee's recommendations, which had been made after a very careful inquiry. But, now that the pressure was in a degree withdrawn, the noble Lord declined to effect the reductions recommended. This held out no inducement to hon. Members to act on Select Committees.

§ LORD JOHN RUSSELL
would beg to remind the hon. Member (Mr. Bright), that the Government had adopted many of the recommendations of the Committee. Indeed, he had gone as far as he possibly could—he would not say consistently with his own judgment, for his judgment was against several of the recommendations he had adopted in deference to that Committee. There had been great reductions 1277 of late years in the number of salaried offices held by Members of Parliament. The salary of this office—the Lord Privy Seal—was formerly 4,000l., but was now only 2,000l. A few years ago there was a Paymaster of the Forces, an office which he (Lord John Russell) had himself held, and which, like this office of Lord Privy Seal, had no very great duties connected with it; and he, while holding it, as had been said of the holders of this office, attended to various matters, among others, that of the Reform Bill; but that office had now been joined with that of Vice-President of the Board of Trade. The Mastership of the Mint, too, was now held by Sir John Herschell, a gentleman totally unconnected with politics and with Parliament. What the public benefit really required was, that the public business should be well done; no doubt it might be done at a somewhat cheaper rate, but then there would be many subjects of great public importance which would be neglected. There were many such things requiring attention as had been alluded to; he could mention twenty. For instance, there was the Ecclesiastical Leases Bill; it did not belong to any department. Neither of the Secretaries of State could attend to it; the current business of their offices prevented it. But if these subjects, some dozen, at least, of great importance to the Government and the country, could not be attended to by some person not overburdened with the business of his office, the public would eventually suffer. The Ministers would have an answer if they were reproached, because each one, in the case supposed, would have his time occupied by his own duties by day, and in that House at night; but still the public would be losers. He believed they were going rather too far already, and that the 5,000l. or 6,000l. which they proposed to save would cause great loss to the public service.

§ MR. BRIGHT
was willing to admit that Earl Granville had taken a very active part in the conduct of public business in the other House of Parliament, besides the onerous duties he had discharged out of doors as one of the Commissioners of the Great Exhibition, which office he had filled in the most satisfactory manner. Still, he thought that one of the three offices he had named might be advantageously done away with. The arguments of the noble Lord in support of these offices had been used against himself 1278 years ago, when he was opposing useless offices, and would be so used to the end of time.

§ LORD JOHN RUSSELL
said, that in referring to the valuable services of Earl Granville as Vice-President of the Board of Trade, no appointment which he (Lord John Russell) had made had given greater satisfaction. The appointment had been ridiculed at the time, because the noble Earl had previously held the office of Master of the Buckhounds, and it was said he must be unfit to deal with subjects of trade; but it must be admitted by every one who had witnessed the able way in which the noble Earl discharged his duties, that the office could not have been more worthily bestowed.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS,
wished all our other functionaries were as efficient as Earl Granville; but he must insist that the Government were treating the Committee very ill in making reductions to the ox-tout of only 3,000l. out of the 8,000l. recommended to be taken off political offices.

§ MR. MACGREGOR
cordially admitted the laborious nature of the duties discharged by Earl Granville; and he could state that the clerks in the Board of Trade were absolutely slaves, especially during the Session of Parliament, when returns were continually being called for. Though anxious to economise in every way, he would not reduce any of the salaries in that office.

§ COLONEL SIBTHORP
said, that a more gross imposition never was practised than when a noble Lord in another place (Lord Monteagle) was "pitchforked" into this sinecure, for which he received 2,000l. a year. There was not a more competent or laborious officer than the assistant comptroller (Mr. Eden); he was quite equal to discharge the duties without having a fashionable noble Lord above him. Petty reductions were made in the salaries of clerks and messengers; but a more gross fraud on the public was never committed than that of continuing the noble Lord in the situation of Comptroller General. His salary was unfortunately charged on the Consolidated Fund, and therefore was not included in the Vote, though he observed that a third clerk had been reduced, who was worth, he should say, ten comptrollers general.

§ MR. HUME
asked whether regulations had been made to prevent the recurrence of the fraud which had been formerly practised with respect to Exchcquer-bills?

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
replied that every precaution which skill, ingenuity, and experience could devise, had been taken.

§ LORD JOHN RUSSELL
said, that the papers to which this vote referred had been in course of collection since the time of Henry VIII., and were very valuable. It was principally for their arrangement that this vote was required.

§ MR. HUME
wished to know what facilities of access were given to persons desirous of consulting the State papers?

MR. CORNEWALL LEWIS
said, he believed that all proper facilities were given. The usual hours of admission wore from ten to four, and the office was open every day except Saturdays. Calendars, or very full indexes of the contents of the State papers, down to the time of the Civil War, were in course of preparation, and orders had been given for printing them.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
thought it most unjust that the people of this country should be taxed to pay officers for managing the affairs of the bishops, deans, and chapters, and other departments of the Church. Church property ought to be made to pay the salaries of those officers who managed it, and not to make them a charge upon the public funds. The revenues of the Church, which amounted to about 6,000,000l., were quite enough, without saddling the public exchequer with these expenses of management. He should, therefore, take the sense of the Committee against this Vote.

§ MR. TRELAWNY
said, he had recently seen that it was the opinion of forty-five Members of Parliament, and many of the bishops, that if the property of the Church were properly managed, it might be made to yield an increase of another 500,000l. to its present revenues, and he could not see why the public should be called upon to pay this Vote. Church rates must sooner or later be abolished, and it was important that economy should 1280 be observed in order to enable the Church to dispense with that source of income.

§ SIR GEORGE GREY
said, this Vote was only a small portion of the expenses of the Commissioners, and it had always been paid ever since their appointment. It was less in amount this year than it had hitherto been, owing to a reduction in the establishment. This Vote came annually before Parliament, and gave the Committee an opportunity of obtaining information as to the proceedings of the Commissioners.

§ COLONEL SIBTHORP
objected to the Vote, suspecting that none of the benefit of it was allowed to go to the Church; besides he detested any proceedings that had Commissioners attached to them.

§ LORD JOHN RUSSELL
said, that two Commissioners, according to the Act of last year, were paid from the funds of the Church, and not from this Vote; and the effect of refusing a Vote of this kind would be, that the Commissioners would not be able to carry into effect, in many cases, the division of parishes, with the grant of allowances to clergymen for spiritual instruction. The only result, therefore, would be a diminution in the means of religious instruction provided for populous parishes. The relief of spiritual destitution was a public object, and he thought it only fair that Parliament should furnish part of the means for accomplishing it.

§ COLONEL SIBTHORP
said, that if the Vote were raised to four times its present amount, he did not think the benefit would be derived by the Church. He had seen so little care shown for the interests of the Church by the noble Lord, that he would be pardoned for saying that he could not give credit to his representations.

§ MR. HUME
said, the noble Lord at the head of the Government wished the Committee to infer that if this vote wore taken away, it would diminish the funds now applicable for useful purposes connected with the State. Now, he (Mr. Hume) considered that the property of the Church was public property, and ought to be made applicable for any purpose connected with the religious welfare of the people. But there was another important circumstance to which he wished to call the noble Lord's attention. The right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn) was one of the Commissioners, and, under the Act of last Session, the right hon. Gentleman received 1,000l. a year for his services as such. Now, the 1281 right hon. Gentleman was in receipt of an annual pension of 2,000l. for past public services; and the question he wished to raise, as a matter of public principle, was, whether it was competent for the right hon. Gentleman to draw this extra 1,000l. out of the property of the Church whilst he already had a pension of 2,000?

§ LORD JOHN RUSSELL
said, that by the Act of Parliament of last year, three Commissioners were to be appointed—two by the Crown, and one by the Archbishop of Canterbury. The Earl of Chichester and Mr. Shaw Lefevre were appointed by the Crown, and the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the University of Cambridge (Mr. Goulburn) was nominated by the Archbishop of Cantor-bury. The pension which the right hon. Gentleman received was duo to him in consequence of having performed certain services for a certain period of time as one of the officers of the State; and the 1,000l., which he received as Ecclesiastical Commissioner was given under an Act of Parliament for duties to be performed, which duties, he presumed, the right hon. Gentleman satisfactorily discharged.

§ MR. HUME
said, the Act prescribed that, if an officer drawing a pension for past services should receive subsequent employment, his pension should then be merged in the salary paid for that subsequent employment. As a matter of law and equity, he put it to the Committee whether the public ought not to be protected against this double payment? It was no answer to say that the extra 1,000l. was paid out of the revenues of the Church, because the Archbishop of Canterbury had the right of nomination. As he had already contended, he repeated that the property of the Church was the property of the public, and ought to be saved from being squandered as much as the money of any other public department. For these reasons he should certainly join in the endeavour to reduce this vote.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, it was quite true that a person receiving a public pension, on being appointed again to a public office, would not receive both the pension and the salary; as, for instance, if Mr. Goulburn were appointed Chancellor of the Exchequer again, he would receive the salary of 5,000l., but the pension of 2,000l would cease. But the distinction in the present case was this, that Mr. Goulburn's office, for which he received 1,000l. a year, was not a pub- 1282 lie appointment, and therefore he was entitled to continue his pension for past public services.

Mr. DRUMMOND
said, that whoever had voted against the grant to Maynooth, and whoever meant to vote against the Regium Donum, was bound, in justice, to oppose the present vote. This was not a question of amount, but a question of principle, and the Committee ought to sot its face against all votes of that kind.

§ MR. W. J. FOX
should oppose this vote, on the ground that it was a tax upon Dissenters for the benefit of the Church. Whether it was church rates, or a vote applied to purposes for extending the influence of the Church, the principle was the same—it was that of taxing the people at large for the benefit of a particular class; and, therefore, Dissenters were justified in remonstrating against it.

§ LORD JOHN RUSSELL
said, the principle stated by the hon. Member for West Surrey (Mr. Drummond), and by the hon. Gentleman who spoke last, did not at all apply to this vote. It was totally a distinct question. This was a vote of money for carrying on a certain civil business, which civil business referred to ecclesiastical arrangements. It was intended to facilitate certain reforms in Church property, which reforms the State had thought it necessary to make; just as they might make a provision for a Commission to reform the Court of Chancery, or the Common Law Courts; and then it would be admitted that it was a matter of Government, the expense of which the State ought to pay, and not the suitors in the Court of Chancery. The vote had nothing to do with the functions of the Church, or with the spiritual duties of persons belonging to the Church; but was for an entirely civil office, to be carried on by civilians, who were to effect a reform in the general management of Church property.

§ MR. BRIGHT
said, he thought the noble Lord had completely failed in his argument. The vote was for effecting the improvement of Church property, and not for the building of any Dissenting schools or chapels. It was to enable the Church to get hold of its own funds by a better administration, and to apply them for strictly and exclusively Church purposes. It was very different from a reform in the Court of Chancery, or in the other law courts, because the law courts were not for a particular class like the Church, but for all classes in the country; and the courts had 1283 no landed property, like the Church, which the noble Lord undertook to manage for them. The Ecclesiastical Commissioners were the trustees of the property of the Church, and that property ought to bear the expense of its own management.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
wanted to know why the Dissenters of this country should he taxed to support such a Commission? How was it that the public paid the clerks to the Commission, whilst the Commissioners were, at least partially, paid out of the Church funds?

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, those clerks were paid by the public because the public had an interest in their labours, and in the proper management of Church property.

§ MR. HUME
would like to know what advantage the public had, as not one farthing of the money ever came into the Exchequer?

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, that by the lion. Gentleman's own argument, that Church property was public property, the public must of course have an interest in it.

MR. J. B. SMITH
said, that the ecclesiastical property in this country had been very badly managed by the Commissioners, who had allowed the Secretary to run away with 10,000l.

§ COLONEL DUNNE
said, he did not rise to oppose the Vote, but he wished to know what was the cause of the increase in the Vote for Ireland this year beyond that of last year, seeing that the amount of destitution had diminished in the present year?

§ SIR WILLIAM SOMERVILLE
said, it was owing to the number of extra clerks who had been employed during the pressure of distress, and whose services they did not think it desirable to dispense with as yet.

§ MR. CLEMENTS
said, he must complain that the Poor Law Commissioners for Ireland had given no satisfactory account of the manner in which the rate in aid of last year had been disposed of. Nor had they given any precise information as to the disposal of the sum of 300,000l. ad- 1284 vanced for distressed unions. They simply stated that a particular amount had been allocated to each union, but no explanation was given of the circumstances under which that allocation took place. It would have been more satisfactory also if the Commissioners had given some reason why so much delay had taken place in carrying out the works in certain unions.

§ MR. REYNOLDS
thought the whole of this Vote should be postponed, in order to give the Government time to reconsider it. One of the items now proposed was a sum of 41,724l. for the Poor Law Commission in Ireland. He had much to say about this Commission; but, in the meantime, he wished to call the attention of the Committee to a disparity, as regarded two items, between the case of Ireland, and that of England and Scotland. In England a sum of 30,000l. was given towards education in Poor Law Unions, while in Ireland the sum required for education in the workhouses was exacted from the overtaxed ratepayers. Then there was for the salaries of medical officers of the poor-law districts a sum of 80,000l. in England, and of 10,000l. in Scotland, while in Ireland the payment of the medical officers was thrown entirely upon the ratepayers. Why should the poor ratepayers of Ireland be compelled to pay these parties, while in England and Scotland a large sum was granted from the public purse? He had to complain, however, of the Irish Poor Law Commission generally, and he would rather see it abolished altogether than retained in its present incomplete state. It was very far from being efficient; and, in consequence of that inefficiency, the guardians of the poor, both paid and unpaid, had been permitted to neglect their duty, so that there had been an incredible sacrifice of human life in Ireland, from a want of the necessaries of life among the poor. He had from time to time called the attention of the Irish Secretary to the slaughter which had been committed, especially in the counties of Galvvay and Kerry, and had moved for returns relative to the workhouses of Kilrush and Ennistymon, which, however, had not been obtained, the right hon. Secretary for Ireland always giving some flimsy excuse for their non-appearance, though he (Mr. Reynolds) believed they might have been prepared in forty-eight hours. The Poor Law Commission in Ireland had served no good purpose. There was one efficient Commissioner, Mr. Power, who received 2,000l. a year, and an Assistant Commis- 1285 sioner, who got 1,500l.; and the other Commissioners were the Secretary and Under Secretary for Ireland, who had more than enough to do with their own duties, without being incumbered with poor-law business. The Commission had not diminished pauperism, nor saved a human life; and while it had ground the ratepayers of Ireland to the dust by the exaction of heavy rates, it had not fed, clothed, or lodged the poor, nor secured the efficient discharge of their duties by the guardians, paid or unpaid; it was one of the greatest abominations that ever was established in any country; and, great as would be the evil of razing the workhouses to the ground, he believed it would be better than that they should continue in their present state. He thought, considering all these circumstances, he was justified in moving that the whole of the Vote should be postponed.

The CHAIRMAN
said, it was not competent to the hon. Member to move that the Vote be postponed; but he might, if he pleased, propose to negative it.

§ SIR WILLIAM SOMERVILLE
said, he was ready to defend the Irish Poor Law Commission when the proper time for doing so arrived, and he had no doubt he should be able to vindicate them in the 'estimation of the House, if not of the hon. Member for the city of Dublin (Mr. Reynolds). As to the returns which had been referred to by the hon. Member, no unnecessary delay had taken place in laying them on the table. There had been a great pressure upon the clerks; and besides, in consequence of discrepancies in the returns from the unions, they had to be sent back for correction. The papers had that day been laid on the table, and if the hon. Member thought they could have been prepared in forty-eight hours, he would only ask him to look at their great bulk.

§ MR. REYNOLDS
said, if it were not competent to him to move the postponement of this Vote, he should not divide the Committee, because he was not prepared to negative the entire Vote. He was not satisfied with the right hon. Gentleman's explanation with respect to the returns. The preparation of them was only scriveners' work, and his statement that they might have been presented within forty-eight hours was made on the authority of an hon. Gentleman who was formerly connected with the Poor Law Commission.

§ Mr. HUME
thought that as regarded 1286 the payment of medical officers, Ireland ought to be placed on the same footing as England. Again, he found in the Vote a charge of 20,000l. for schoolmasters and schoolmistresses for England; but he believed there was no such charge on account of Ireland.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, the same question had been asked in a former Session, and had been answered in the same manner in which he was now about to answer it. These charges were imposed on the public revenue in consequence of the change made in the Corn Laws in 1846, and were then considered as a compensation to the agricultural interest for any loss it might sustain by reason of that change. The charges made upon the public revenue for the expenses of the constabulary of Ireland were much greater in proportion than any charges that were defrayed by the public on account of the Poor Law Unions in England. The expense of the constabulary in Ireland amounted to 580,000l.; one-half of that sum was made a charge upon the public revenue. The Education Vote this year for England was 150,000l., and for Ireland 134,000l. Considering the population of the two countries, he did not think Ireland had any reason to complain. With regard to the loan of 300,000l. mentioned by the hon. Member for Leitrim (Mr. Clements), that was to enable certain Unions in Ireland to pay off debts for which they were liable to contractors. In the Appendix to the Report would be found a list of the Unions to which those advances had been made.

§ MR. CLEMENTS
said, it was these appendices he complained of, as they afforded no information of the way in which the advances had been allocated and expended.

§ SIR WILLIAM SOMERVILLE
said, if the hon. Member would point out any Union regarding which he wished for a return of the nature alluded to, he should do his best to obtain it.

SIR ROBERT FERGUSON
wished that the same system of payment of the items included in this Vote for England should be extended to Ireland.

§ MR. HENLEY
said, that he found that the sum to be voted for education in workhouses was to be reduced, as compared with last year, from 35,000l. to 20,000l.; it being at the same time stated that "these charges were overstated in the past year, and are now reduced to 1287 what is considered a sufficient sum." Now, there were between 600 and 700 Unions in the country, and as the sum of 20,000l. only gave something like 30l. in round numbers for each Union, he thought (even considering that the schoolmasters and mistresses received lodgings and rations in addition) that that was not sufficient to secure a very good quality of education. He believed, that if there was one point in which our poor-law system failed, it was in the quality of the education which was given to the children in the workhouses. Many of these children were orphans who were bereft of all friends, and they often, especially the boys, came out of the workhouse without any means of getting a livelihood. It was of the greatest importance that in these schools there should be masters well qualified not only to teach the elementary matters of learning, but also to train up the children in such a way that they should be capable of getting their living when they left the workhouses. On these grounds he saw with regret the reduction in the amount proposed to be voted under this head.

§ MR. BAINES
said, that no one could be more sensible than he was of the great importance of directing the attention of the Poor Law Board steadily towards the improvement of the education given in workhouses. He believed that considerable improvements in that education had been made lately, and were still going on, and he looked forward with confident hope to still further improvements being made. Although the vote under this head would be reduced from 35,000l. to 20,000l. a year, there would be no reduction in the sum actually expended; for although the Treasury had in past years estimated the head of expenditure at 35,000l., the Poor Law Board had never actually called for more than 20,000l. He could assure the hon. Member for Oxfordshire (Mr. Henley) that the Poor Law Board would not consent to any reduction in the salaries of this class of officers, whom they believed to be a very useful and by no means overpaid class. Within the last two years he had had repeated applications, particularly from Unions in which agricultural distress had prevailed, to assent to a reduction of this class of salaries, but he had uniformly refused to accede to them. The hon. Member (Mr. Henley) was labouring under a misapprehension when he supposed that because there were between 600 and 700 1288 Unions in the country, there must be an equal number of schoolmasters and mistresses. There was only a schoolmaster where there was a workhouse; and he was sorry to say that there were still a number of Unions in the country without workhouses, and the Poor Law Board were unable by law to compel them to have them. It appeared by a return made to the Poor Law Board in 1850, that there were 383 Union schoolmasters, and 501 schoolmistresses in the country; the excess of schoolmistresses arising from the fact that in many Unions where there were but a small number of young children in the workhouse, it was found by experience that a good schoolmistress was sufficient. Besides their salaries, the masters and mistresses had rations and lodgings—an arrangement had been made with the Privy Council, by which they would also have the allowances granted by that body to schoolmasters and schoolmistresses who possessed high attainments. The more he saw of workhouse education, the more he saw the necessity of advancing it by every means in their power.

§ MR. HENLEY
was much gratified at the explanation given by the right hon. Gentleman.

§ MR. EWART
wished to know from the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Poor Law Board how far the recommendation of the inspectors of workhouses with reference to the education of children in schools, separate from the workhouse, had been carried into effect?

§ MR. BAINES
said, that the powers of the Poor Law Commissioners with respect to district schools were very limited. The Poor Law Amendment Act of 1844 gave power to Boards of Guardians to combine several Parishes and Unions into school districts, and to erect schools in some convenient central place, apart from the workhouses, for the common purpose of better educating the pauper children; but the Act merely enabled them, and did not make it compulsory upon them, to do so. It was left to the discretion of Boards of Guardians to say whether they would avail themselves of the powers given them by the Act or not; but if they did avail themselves of those powers, the Poor Law Board had power to direct all further proceedings. He was happy to say that in many important places, and especially in the metropolis and neighbourhood, the Boards of Guardians had had what he would call the wisdom to see the importance of prevent- 1289 ing pauperism, and had therefore united for the purpose of establishing district schools, which it was believed would tend to promote that important object. In some few places in the country the Boards of Guardians had also availed themselves of the powers of the Act; but he regretted to say that the number of places in the rural districts in which this had been done was by no means large. This, however, should not be considered as the fault of the Poor Law Commissioners, who had done all in their power to promote the establishment of these schools.

§ MR. G. A. HAMILTON
could not help remarking that, while the statement of the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Poor Law Board for England was satisfactory, the Report on the table was not satisfactory, as far as Ireland was concerned. He wished to call the attention of the right hon. Gentleman the Secretary for Ireland to the fact that, of 249,000 inmates of the poorhouses in Ireland, 103,000 were children under fifteen years of ago. Under such a state of things, the education of the children in the workhouses became a matter of primary importance. He knew that in two or three places the Boards of Guardians had paid great attention to the subject; but the Poor Law Board had not encouraged them, and therefore their intentions were not carried out.

§ MR. BOOKER
had no desire to cast imputations upon the right hon. Gentleman the President of the Poor Law Board, or the officers under him; but he begged to say that he had had the honour of presenting several petitions, very numerously signed, from the county which he represented (Herefordshire), complaining that the Boards of Guardians were too much controlled by the Poor Law Inspectors, and stating that, in the opinion of the petitioners, the Boards of Guardians were perfectly competent to conduct their own affairs, and that a considerable amount might well be saved by reducing the number of Inspectors. It appeared that the Inspectors were twelve in number, that their salaries amounted to 7,800l. a year, and their travelling and incidental expenses to 8,712l. He put it to the right hon. Gentleman whether, from the length of time the Boards of Guardians had been organised, they might not now be safely left to conduct their own affairs without so many Inspectors. With regard to industrial education, he begged to say that in the city of the county he represented, there 1290 was an industrial school, which was fitted to be a model for the whole kingdom, and he hoped to see the system extended. He might mention, however, that all the Poor Law Inspectors with whom he had come into contact had made it a great point to press upon the minds of the Boards of Guardians at large the benefit that was likely to result from industrial education.

§ MR. MORE O'FERRALL
wished an explanation in reference to the Poor Law accounts. It appeared that 1,430,000l. was the Poor Law expenditure of Ireland. Of this sum 831,000l. was spent for the maintenance of the paupers, and the balance was paid for wages and other expenses. These "other expenses" amounted to 447,000l., and he wished to know what these other expenses were.

§ SIR WILLIAM SOMERVILLE
was not able to state of what these particular expenses consisted; but if the hon. Member wished for information on any points, and moved for it, he would take care that it should be furnished.

MR. MORE O'FERRAL
said, that the present was the only opportunity hon. Members possessed of gaining information of this kind, and these returns ought to be made intelligible.

§ SIR HENRY BARRON
said, that when the Corn Laws were abolished it was stated that a portion of the expenses for the maintenance of the constabulary in Ireland would be paid out of the Consolidated Fund, as an equivalent to Ireland; but that he considered no equivalent at all; and if the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer asserted that it was an equivalent, he would say that it was a most inadequate equivalent. They gave to England and Scotland 90,000l. for medical attendance in the workhouses, and yet they did not give a farthing to Ireland, the poorest portion of the United Kingdom. The explanation of the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer was most unsatisfactory. The grant for the constabulary was a petty grant, and could not be considered as an equivalent for the injury done to Ireland by the repeal of the Corn Laws. Another injustice was now sought to be perpetrated as regarded the medical expense, and the school system in workhouses.

§ MR. REYNOLDS
would take that opportunity of stating that the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer, having relieved the agriculturists of England and 1291 Scotland by a grant of 90,000l, in consequence of the repeal of the Corn Laws, he ought, in justice to Ireland, to relieve that country of a greater sum in proportion. He could not understand bow the right hon. Gentleman could support the Vote when he took away so large a percentage annually from the Irish hospitals. It occurred to him that possibly if they did not vote for a grant for hospitals and schools in Ireland, they could not consistently do so for England and Scotland. They gave 100,000l. a year to the national schools in Ireland, and yet they refused to support the hospitals and schools of the workhouses.

§ MR. HUME
thought, that it was no answer to the complaint of the Irish Members that the Government voted larger sums for other matters connected with that country. With respect to the constabulary, about which so much had been said, it bad been stated by an hon. Member connected with the north of Ireland, that there was no necessity whatever for keeping up the constabulary in that part of the country; and, in doing so, they were therefore voting away money uselessly which might be applied to useful purposes. If they granted money for hospitals and schools in England and Scotland, they ought to do so also for Ireland.

§ MR. COWAN
wished to avail himself of that opportunity of making another attempt to gain information with reference to the destitution which prevailed in the Highlands and Islands of Scotland. They had been told that Sir John M'Neill, the President of the Poor Law Board for Scotland, had made a personal inspection of the districts in which the destitution prevailed, and yet no Report had been presented to them of that inspection. He bad seen in the public papers alarming accounts of the distress which prevailed in that portion of Her Majesty's dominions, and be had been informed by parties on whom be placed reliance, that those accounts were greatly exaggerated, and they ought therefore to be furnished with authentic information on the subject. He wished to know when they would be supplied with a report on the subject, even if it were only an interim report?

§ SIR GEORGE GREY
said, the report of Sir John M'Neill should be laid on the table as soon as possible.

§ MR. CLEMENTS
said, some of the figures in the Report of the Poor Law 1292 Commissioners were very unsatisfactory. The Commissioners had voted sums for the purposes of emigration, and also for additional workhouse accommodation in distressed Unions; but they did not give any idea of the amounts allocated, or the circumstances under which they had been allocated. If these things were not explained, he would be obliged to move that the Chairman report progress.

§ SIR WILLIAM SOMERVILLE
said, he could not give any information except what was on the paper; but if any particular items were moved for, he would endeavour to furnish them.

§ MR. CLEMENTS
said, that nothing could be more unsatisfactory than this Report. Some of the items appeared of a very unaccountable character. Why bad they no statement as to what had been paid for building and emigration?

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, the amount for the purposes of emigration had been paid out of the rate in aid.

§ MR. CLEMENTS
said, he must beg the Chancellor of the Exchequer's pardon, but it bad been already spent.

§ SIR WILLIAM SOMERVILLE
said, the Return was made out according to the Act; and any further information, as he had already said, might be obtained on being moved for.

§ MR. CLEMENTS
said, there was a statement in the Report presented to that House a few days ago, that the Commissioners had thought fit to allocate a sum of money for the purposes of emigration, and another sum for the building of additional workhouses in distressed Unions; but it did not give them the least idea of the amounts so allocated, or the circumstances under which the expenditure was incurred. Now a return could he called for of the annual expenditure of the different Unions, and that was what the right hon. Baronet promised if he moved for it; but how were they to get to know the state of circumstances under which the expenditure for emigration and building was made? They were not stated in the Report of the Commissioners, and when he asked the right hon. Chancellor of the Exchequer, he got no answer.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, he had since discovered he was wrong in stating that the grants for emigration were made out of the rate in aid. They were made subsequently to the time this account was made up, and 1293 they would be made out of the second rate. If the hon. Gentleman (Mr. Clements) would move for a Return, he would get further information, and the mode of getting it would be to move for the correspondence between the Poor Law Commissioners and the Treasury, in which the circumstances were stated.

§ MR. HUME
said, he wished to know on what ground the estimate for coining more gold was made? There was a great quantity of it in the Bank, and plenty in the country. He also wished to know when the new system was to be brought into operation?

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER,
in reply, said, that a certain quantity of light sovereigns were from time to time returned to the Mint, and it was necessary to replace them occasionally by the issuing of new sovereigns. The cost of the coinage was, as stated in the Estimate, one-third per cent. He believed that the now system would come into operation in the course of a few weeks.

§ MR. HUME
wished to know whether the Master of the Mint, Sir John Herschell, gave his attendance, as unless he did so, he did not think it a wise appointment; but if he did give his attendance, he should be happy to find that Government had been able to employ him.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
said, he was proud to be able to hear his testimony to the ability of Sir John Herschell, who was not only a good astronomer, but one of the best men of business he ever met with. He had taken a most active interest in the superintendence of the proceedings of the Mint from the time of his appointment.

§ MR. LABOUCHERE,
in reply, said, that the increase was explained in a note to the Estimates. He took this opportunity of making an explanation with respect to one item—the salary of the Commissioner of the Railway Department, the amount of which was 1,500l. The Salaries Committee recommended the discontinuance of that paid office, and that the Railway Commission should be reunited to the Board of 1294 Trade. He had, on several occasions, expressed a strong opinion, that it was impossible for the President of the Board of Trade to discharge the duties of the Railway Department without the assistance, not only of a sound lawyer, but of an individual of that great weight and character which would inspire confidence in the public; and he was unwilling that the country should be deprived of the great services of Sir Edward Ryan. But upon this recommendation of the Committee, he found Sir Edward Ryan most unwilling and reluctant to continue to hold the office; and it was mainly on his unwillingness to hold an office of the utility of which a Committee of that House had expressed a doubt, that he (Mr. Labouchcre) was prepared to yield to the decision of the Committee, and reunite the Railway Commission with the Board of Trade. Accordingly before the end of the Session, it would be his duty to bring in a Bill for that purpose. Consistently with his duty to the country he could not have acquiesced in this arrangement if it had not happened that one of the Secretaries of the Board of Trade was a gentleman who, while connected with that House, had an opportunity of acquiring considerable knowledge with respect to railway business—he alluded to Mr. Booth. On consulting Mr. Booth, he found that that gentleman was willing to take upon himself the great additional labour which attention to the railway business of the department would throw on him, though his duties at present wore of a very onerous description. He (Mr. Labouchere) intended that the new system should come into operation at the end of September, up to which period he should have the valuable assistance of Sir Edward Ryan; and, in consideration of the additional amount of labour and responsibility imposed on Mr. Booth, he had felt it his duty to state to that gentleman that he should propose an addition to his salary of 500l. in the next Estimate. By this arrangement the saving to the public would be 1,000l. a year.

§ MR. HUME
begged to ask whether it was any portion of the duty of this department to attend to what were called Parliamentary trains, the rate of travelling of which was very slow, and regarding which many complaints were made?

§ MR. LABOUCHERE
said, it was one of the functions of the Railway Department to take care that there was no infraction of any Act of Parliament relating to 1295 railways, and it was especially their duty to take care that the requirements of the Act relating to the Parliamentary trains, which were for the accommodation of the humbler classes, should be strictly complied with. Whenever any complaints were made of railway companies, in this particular, they were always investigated. There was, he believed, a fair disposition on the part of the railway companies to carry the Act into effect.

§ MR. BOOKER
had heard with pain that a new arrangement was likely to deprive the public of the services of Sir Edward Ryan, than whom a more valuable public officer never existed. Considering the rapid development of the railway system, he did not think it would be for the public advantage that the Railway Department should be amalgamated with the already overburdened Board of Trade. The railway companies might be made to contribute a sum for the maintenance of the Railway Department, which would reduce the contribution from the public purse some trifling amount.

§ MR. PLUMPTRE
also regretted the proposed arrangement. He should be sorry if the public lost the services of Sir Edward Ryan; and he thought the public would be glad to bear an addition of expense, rather than a diminution, to increase the efficiency of the Railway Department.

§ MR. HUME
hoped the Government would not alter their plan. Sir Edward Ryan could not have any peculiar knowledge of railways, from the circumstance, of his having been an Indian Judge for so long a period. He was sorry to hear such doleful lamentations at the proposed arrangement: it would appear as if Sir Edward Ryan had entirely managed the railways. All he did was to give legal advice, and probably the country would have the advantage of obtaining as good legal advice from the gentleman to whom it was now proposed to give an additional salary.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
said, he objected to the items of this Vote. What did Her 1296 Majesty want with a "limner," a "clockmaker," or an "historiographer?" He particularly objected to the item "the Queen's plate to be run for at Edinburgh," "The Caledonian Hunt," and "The Royal Company of Scottish Archers." He moved that the sums for the three last be disallowed, which would reduce the vote by 217l. 13s. The amount was certainly small; hut the principle involved was of much importance.

MR. CORNEWALL LEWIS
said, that these offices and these grants were of very old date; and he thought it would be unfair to diminish the Vote now. The office of Queen's Limner was generally filled by some eminent Scottish painter. The Queen's plate, and the plate for the Caledonian Hunt, had been given by George III.

§ MR. HUME
thought that these absurdities had existed too long, and ought to be done away with. He put it to the public spirit of hon. Gentlemen from Scotlaud to divide against this paltry Vote. The "Scottish Archers" had a very fine uniform, and ought to think the privilege of wearing it well worth its cost. He, however, did not wish to do away with the office of Historiographer. This might be usefully filled by distinguished persons. He hoped the Government would at once promise that these other items would not appear in the estimates next year, and so save the Committee the trouble of dividing.

MR. CORNEWALL LEWIS
The office of "clockmaker" was no sinecure. The person filling that office had to attend to all the clocks at Holyrood.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
said, that the plates for England had long since been withdrawn from the Estimates, and that no distinction ought to be made in favour of Scotland. It was not the amount of the grant to which he objected, but the principle.

§ MR. W. EVANS
was of opinion that horseracing led to immorality. He was sure the public of Scotland would willingly forego those plates.

§ MR. DISRAELI
wished the hon. Gentleman (Mr. W. Williams), who was about to divide the Committee, not upon the amount, but the principle, to explain what the principle was. The hon. Member said he believed that no Queen's plates were run for in England; but that was not the impression of hon. Gentlemen around him, one of whom had just told him that his 1297 horse had won a Queen's plate at Manchester, and that the money was paid out of the Estimates. The Committee would do well to remember the origin of these grants. The question was whether these sums were not originally the disposition of the patronage of the Crown, defrayed out of the Crown estates; and if Parliament chose to take away the hereditary property of the Crown, and to make an arrangement which he (Mr. Disraeli) thought injudicious alike for the Crown and the country, the Committee ought to hesitate before acceding to a proposition to strike off these grants, and to announce that the Crown should be deprived of all those acts of patronage and liberality which it had formerly bestowed. He apprehended, then, that these grants could not be said to he paid out of the public taxes, and further that there was nothing mean or ludicrous in the Sovereign giving a prize to be contested for by the archers of the Royal Body Guard. It appeared to him to be only an act of Royal courtesy, and he doubted whether the hon. Member would he able to lay down any principle applicable to this Vote. If the hon. Member divided the House, he certainly should not support his Amendment.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
said, the Queen enjoyed a civil list of 385,000l. per annum, and her parks and palaces were maintained at the public expense. He did not believe that the Crown estates which had been exchanged for the civil list had produced more than 130,000l. a year against the 385,000l. of the civil list. He objected to the Vote on the ground that it was not right to tax the people for such purposes.

§ MR. MOORE
could inform the hon. Gentleman the Member for Lambeth that between twenty and twenty-five Queen's plates were annually given in England, the sum thus expended being from 2,000l. to 2,500l. He did not believe there were more than four given in Scotland.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
said, that his intention was to disallow such Votes equally in England.

§ SIR ROBERT H. INGLIS
The hon. Member for Lambeth would pardon him for saying that he (Mr. W. Williams) did not say that if there were Queen's plates given in England he would oppose them; he said that no money was given for such purposes. The Crown had, in his opinion, made a bad bargain when it exchanged its hereditary revenues for the civil list 1298 granted by that House. The Crown had lost in the aggregate 116,000,000l. by the difference between the hereditary revenues of the Crown generally, and not the landed property solely, and the amount voted by Parliament. The right hon. Gentleman the then Member for Cambridge (Lord Monteagle) who proposed this arrangement, did not calculate that for the sake of saying that no more than 380,000l. was voted for the civil list, he had opened a door to interminable discussions in that House, in which the dignity of the Crown was at the mercy of any Gentleman who had the power of stringing together twenty sentences, and in which the most vulgar feelings and prejudices were appealed to.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
I shall not condescend to notice the impertinent language of the hon. Baronet. ["Oh, oh!" and "Order!"]

§ SIR ROBERT H. INGLIS
Sir, I appeal to you to say whether anything I have said now or at any other time in this House can justify any hon. Member in applying to me the language of the hon. Member for Lambeth. [Mr. W. Williams here rose.] If the hon. Member rises to apologise, I will sit down immediately. [The hon. Member for Lambeth here sat down.] But, if he does not, I must be permitted to tell him that he is not the man who is entitled to tell me that I have used impertinent language.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
If I have said one sentence inconsistent with the rules of this House, I will of course withdraw it at once. But for the hon. Baronet to say, as he did, that I am incapable of uttering twenty sentences. I listened attentively, and I am sure he used that expression to me. There are very few men I have a higher respect for than the hon. Baronet, and he is the last person I would utter one single word against to hurt his feelings.

§ SIR ROBERT H. INGLIS
thanked the hon. Member for the kind manner in which he had referred to him, and would not prolong this discussion.

§ MR. HUME
thought it was a great pity that they should be quarrelling among one another. He hoped, however, they would look fairly at this Vote. The principle involved was a plain one. The Committee which settled the Civil List retained all that was required for the due maintenance of the dignity of the Crown. These Votes were not retained—simply because the 1299 Committee considered them to be superfluous.

§ LORD JOHN RUSSELL
believed that on the settlement of the Civil List the grants of Queen's plates were fixed to be paid out of the amount set aside for the Master of the Horse; but certain amounts of this kind which had been defrayed out of the hereditary revenues of Scotland and Ireland were placed upon the Estimates. It had pleased Parliament to make provision for the Sovereign in lieu of the revenues of the Crown, and which, especially at the accession of William IV., had been given up. The hon. Member for Lambeth (Mr. W. Williams) seemed to suppose that Parliament had made a bad bargain in the exchange. Whether the Crown had done wisely, he (Lord John Russell) would not say; but, in a matter affecting the dignity and liberality of the Crown, he thought that Parliament should not take away a grant that the Crown for a century had given.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
said, the noble Lord had borne out his assertion. He (Mr. W. Williams) said he was not aware that in any of the miscellaneous estimates, any Queen's plates were given in England. It now appeared that these plates were paid out of the Civil List, and those for Ireland and Scotland ought to come from the same source.

§ MR. HUME
moved to reduce the Vote by the sum of 1,574l. for fifteen Queen's plates given for horseracing in Ireland.

§ MR. W. WILLIAMS
wished for an explanation of the item, "two gentlemen at 1300 large 150l. a year each." It was right the public should know what were the duties of those gentlemen at large. He should support the Amendment of his hon. Friend (Mr. Hume), not because he grudged a single farthing paid to the Crown, but because he thought the country ought not to be called on to support horseracing.

§ MR. MOORE
asked whether hon. Gentlemen were willing to give back the revenue out of which these plates were formerly given?

§ MR. BRIGHT
said, there was a large class in the country opposed to horseracing on moral and conscientious grounds, including many clergymen of the Church of England, and ministers of various denominations; and, on that ground alone, it might be doubted whether this was a fair appropriation of the public taxes. Any one who had this conscientious objection would have a right to complain of such a Vote. On the grounds of public service, and the necessity of economy, it would be impossible to justify the vote of this 1,574l. It would be just as proper for that House to take Bell's Life, and look over the various amusements announced, and give a vote for killing rats. He hoped these votes would be resisted as long as they were brought forward.

§ COLONEL DUNNE
said, the other night there had been a most audacious "pull at the Exchequer" for 2,700l. for the benefit of the Manchester people. If they struck a balance between the sums remitted from the woods and forests in Ireland, and other sources, and the amount of the vote now proposed, to which those who spent the money felt no conscientious objection, it must be admitted to be fairly due.

§ COLONEL SIBTHORP
said, the hon. Gentleman the Member for Manchester knew nothing of rational amusements. One of the greatest friends of the hon. Member was a keen sportsman, and he had furnished his table with more game than he ever had before. The hon. Member was a free trader, but he was not so rationally, for by the measures which he had supported, he had taken from the people of Ireland the means of improving their condition and of obtaining more food.

§ SIR GEORGE GREY
said, he must appeal to the Committee. Time was valuable, and he hoped the hon. Member would not press his Amendment to a division.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
would also appeal to the hon. Gentleman not to divide the Committee again, when the principle of the vote had been carried by the last division.

§ MR. HUME
said, economy consisted in small sums, and, therefore, it was more important that he should divide.

§ SIR WILLIAM JOLLIFFE
would remind the Committee that the vote directly encouraged the breed of horses in Ireland, one of the most lucrative things that country possessed.

§ MR. CHISHOLM ANSTEY
wished some explanation to be given respecting the item of 1,100l. for the salaries and travelling and incidental expenses of the two Inspectors of Fisheries in Ireland. The Committee, which had sat upon the subject of Irish Fisheries, had suggested that the Fisheries Commissioners should not be connected with the Board of Works; that proper salaries should be assigned to them, and a small staff of inferior, but efficient, officers appointed to aid them in superintending the fisheries of Ireland. In the course of last Session, he endeavoured in vain, on two occasions, to separate the Irish fisheries from the department of Public Works. The two Commissioners who managed Irish fisheries wore members of the Board of Works, which consisted of five or six Commissioners. The other four Commissioners knew nothing whatever of the subject, and invariably the suggestions the two Commissioners gave, and the reports they made, were disapproved of. He hoped this statement, which had been graciously received by the Ear] of Clarendon, would receive on this occasion a little more notice from the Chancellor of the Exchequer than he had hitherto deigned to bestow upon it.

§ The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQUER
did not think it would be advisable to separate the Fishery Commissioners from the Commissioners of the Board of Works.

§ COLONEL DUNNE
said, only a very small sum was asked, and the Government might easily subtract it from the salaries of the stipendiary magistrates in Ireland, who were useless, and apply it to the more useful purpose of promoting Irish fisheries.

§ MR. SCULLY
wished to remind the Committee that 14,000l. a year was appropriated to Scotch fisheries, whereas no public money was applied to Irish fisheries except to the payment of the Commissioners.

§ MR. GROGAN
said, he must complain of the curt manner in which the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor of the Exchequer treated a subject so intimately connected with the welfare of Ireland.

§ MR. HUME
said, the Scotch people were most anxious to get rid of their fishery boards.

§ MR. CHISHOLM ANSTEY
said, Parliament had taken the management of the Irish fisheries out of the hands of the Irish people. [Cries of "Question!"] This was the question. They were going to vote an insufficient sum, which would be useless. The Irish did not want a Fishery Board; but if Government maintained it, they wished to see it independent of the Board of Works. Let the right which the Irish people in the reign of Charles the First possessed be restored to them. [Cries of "Question!"] He said again this was the question. The Report of the Committee, which recommended the establishment of a separate board for that important supervision, had been treated with the most marked contempt by every Member of the Government, although the officers approved and confirmed the decision of the Committee. He opposed the sum proposed as utterly inadequate for the objects which were contemplated. Through the mismanagement of the Board of Works, some of the best fisheries had been wholly destroyed. The weirs, which were illegal in Scotland, were permitted in Ireland, and the consequence was ruinous and disastrous. The hon. Member for Tipperary (Mr. Scully) had taunted him with this not being the proper time to bring the question forward; but when he (Mr. Anstey) did bring the question before the House, the hon. Member for Tipperary did not give him the support of his vote.

§ MR. SCULLY
said, that his conduct in that House had been always that of an independent Member, and upon the occasion referred to he had acted as such. For his part, he treated with the utmost contempt 1303 every thing which fell from the hon. and learned Gentleman.

§ LORD NAAS
said, the Committee had been unanimous in thinking that the Board of Works and the Board of Fisheries could not be kept one and the same thing.

§ MR. GRATTAN
said, that the hon. Member for Montrose was blushing for the misconduct of his own countrymen, who had introduced their new laws to Ireland, and scoured the rivers with their weir nets. The Government of Ireland had ceased to exist. He did not know where it was to he found. Was it at the Castle, or at London, or at Rome?

§ MR. REYNOLDS
objected to the vote, on the ground that it was a mischievous and extravagant board. All the patronage, all the large salaries, he found, were given to Englishmen, instead of to natives of Ireland. Were the people of Scotland tired of the 14,000l. a year for the encouragement of the fisheries in Scotland, as the hon. Member for Montrose stated? Would he vote for that sum being transferred to Ireland?

SIR DENHAM NORREYS
said, that he agreed with the hon. Member for the city of Dublin as to the bad management, inefficiency, and over-payment of the Board of Works. It required the most thorough investigation.